Search found 62 matches

by SDK
Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:15 pm UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Meta Mafia II: Day 5
Replies: 1012
Views: 74731

Re: Meta Mafia II: Day 5

You played a good game, scum. Well done!

It was fun joining you guys again. I'm currently in northern BC on my way to the arctic, but I'll catch up with y'all again in a few months. Maybe for Sscret Santa since bessie asked so nice. ;)
by SDK
Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:34 pm UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Meta Mafia II: Day 5
Replies: 1012
Views: 74731

Re: Meta Mafia II: Day Two

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:SDK - I don't remember seeing you comment in freezeblade's soft claim. What are your thoughts on it?

SDK wrote:I agree with BoomFrog that his soft claim is scummy anyway. I see no reason not to just claim a PR in general terms instead of playing word games that leave room for a vanilla claim later.

No time to check, but I'm sure freezeblade has used that exact line before as scum. Like, it's possible he'd say that as a town PR, but I'm not sure what advantage that serves. Doesn't have any impact on my read since he's committed to nothing.

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:
wam wrote:On my read through ran out of time before I reached SDK. I still think hes scum but wouldn't be too massively surprised if he turns up town. Issue is as boomfrog has stated SDK can do look townie and reasonable as scum. SO with 2 hours or so left am leaving my vote where it is.
I'm a little uncomfortable with this post. It's almost like wam is trying to make excuses ahead of an SDK town flip.

Yeah, that's not great. In light of the rest of my read, I still think he's probably town, but that seems to fly against several players now who's scum hunting abilities I respect. If I am alive Day 3, I'll be taking another look and doing a little grilling.


As for Mark, it's certainly possible that he's scum, but his lynch just feels wrong to me. Maybe it shouldn't, but I just don't see enough evidence to make that decision knowing that I'll be fighting the same battle again tomorrow.

@Mark, why am I scummy?
by SDK
Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:05 pm UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Meta Mafia II: Day 5
Replies: 1012
Views: 74731

Re: Meta Mafia II: Day Two

Vote moody
by SDK
Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:45 pm UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Meta Mafia II: Day 5
Replies: 1012
Views: 74731

Re: Meta Mafia II: Day Two

For the record, there are two people I would lynch before myself: freezeblade and moody. If ya'll want to band together to make that happen, I'll jump on board.
by SDK
Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:41 pm UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Meta Mafia II: Day 5
Replies: 1012
Views: 74731

Re: Meta Mafia II: Day Two

BoomFrog wrote:I would be very happy to move my vote to wam if anyone is in support.

I'm not going to support that, and honestly, I'm wondering if lynching me might just be the right play anyway. I'm not usually one to advocate an informational lynch, but even those reading me as town note that there's still a chance I'm scum. plytho is a decent player usually - allowing him to get his head outta his ass would be beneficial. You'll get a huge amount of info, through my interactions, my wagons and my confirmed reads (not that I'm feeling all that confident, unfortunately - though we should lynch freezeblade). Getting all that, it might actually be in town's best interest if I just ride into the sunset on this one.

Unvote
by SDK
Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:59 pm UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Meta Mafia II: Day 5
Replies: 1012
Views: 74731

Re: Meta Mafia II: Day Two

Not sure I like the Mark lynch. I would much rather hit freezeblade (who I am voting for more than just his lurking).

Hell, I'd prefer to vote moody or Madge over Mark. At least I might be able to get a better read on Mark Day 3.

... damnit, we're on deadline right now though, eh? Fine, I'll vote defensively again. I hate this position we're in.

Vote Mark
by SDK
Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:42 pm UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Meta Mafia II: Day 5
Replies: 1012
Views: 74731

Re: Meta Mafia II: Day Two

Super quick since I won't get the chance to post Day 3 and I'll have to get to work soon...

BoomFrog

threetwoone felt townie in the few posts we got. BoomFrog's a trickster, but he's got several points that lead me to believe he's coming from the right place.

BoomFrog wrote:@SDK: If you are town you have some serious OMGUS goggles on haha.

This quote is probably the strongest in my mind - I don't see scum!BF asking this question.


Mark

Not sure scum!Mark would ask about SK. He'd check Matrix14 for himself and probably know immediately whether or not it's possible... but that's assuming he knows his partner's roles right off the bat. SK's are high on the mind of the mafia, but of town as well. The PM/Outbox question is suddenly much more suspicious given the pregame chat, though!

This post voting Madge originally felt to me like townie indignation. I'm not sure I see that so much anymore... it's pure OMGUS, which can come from either, but not a town lean anyway.

Yeah, overall, not sure. Not catching the typical newbie town vibe, but no strong read here either way.


Okay, that's all I've got.

TOWN
jimbobmacdoodle
mpolo
wam
BoomFrog
plytho

LaserGuy (never got the chance to reread him)
Madge
Mark_Cangila
moody7277

Freezeblade
SCUM

Main thing I'm confident in is the town pile. I wish I could say I'm 100%, but having only one true scum read and four neutrals is uncommon. I could say that the entire scum team is in those five, but I'm not feeling great about that claim. I've got the feeling I'm misreading someone, which is bugging me.

Good luck, guys. Hope you can pull us out of this nosedive.
by SDK
Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:20 pm UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Meta Mafia II: Day 5
Replies: 1012
Views: 74731

Re: Meta Mafia II: Day Two

moody

Feels okay in first few posts. Ignores my wagon during original deadline lead up, but this post feels okay. This is strange, though, considering he chose not to unvote (@moody, why didn't you?).

Yeah, he's putting in a bit of work and generally feels totally normal, but that's usual for me reading moody. I've fought against his lynch in the past when he was scum, so not really taking this as anything but neutral at the end of the day. No solid indication that he's scum either, of course.
by SDK
Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:17 pm UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Meta Mafia II: Day 5
Replies: 1012
Views: 74731

Re: Meta Mafia II: Day Two

Ha, whoops: "(not in order within categories)" was specifically stated there. PEDIT: Yeah, caught that while reading through your posts.

moody: how would you order your scum list?
by SDK
Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:04 pm UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Meta Mafia II: Day 5
Replies: 1012
Views: 74731

Re: Meta Mafia II: Day Two

I really feel like I've taken the wrong approach somehow this game. Many of you actually are reading me as town for all the right reasons. Maybe those are the players who actually read my posts? Should I have tried a more concise approach to my responses to plytho? I am surprised that I'm getting lynched for a minor loss of memory, especially considering I've managed to talk myself out of far worse than this in the past! One time too many, perhaps. :P But anyway, no point harping on it.

Not a big fan of moody's interaction with my wagon. He's hedging, but not in an unsure townie kind of way. I read intention there, though I need to confirm that read (in a bit).

I was also thinking this morning that Madge's huge drop in activity is especially suspicious considering the majority of the game was reading her as fairly strongly town. I remember back in Smalltown when we were scum together (with daychat!) she specifically tried to lurk more to maintain her townie image. Her Day 2 posting here has been less impressive. Along with her weak vote on me, that may be because she's scum. Should have asked her more questions about that directly... This post is pretty good though. Might be nothing.

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:SDK - you wrote a part of your first D2 post overnight apparently, specifically this:
SDK wrote:My preferred lynches are freezeblade, Sabrar, Vicarin, in that order.
How come Vicarin is there?? He was already dead by the time you wrote this!

No, that particular part was found on my computer when I came back in the next morning right before deadline. I'd written it the previous day and thought I'd already posted it.

plytho wrote:SDK: remains a scum read. His reads list has way too many townies.

There are 5 townies on my most recent list. You have 6... so... oh, right, carry on then, plytho!

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:I do find it slightly odd that BoomFrog seems to assume that freezeblade is not a PR, and therefore needs to be lynched.

Boomfrog posted that before freezeblade "soft claimed" (or reminded everyone of it), though I agree with BoomFrog that his soft claim is scummy anyway. I see no reason not to just claim a PR in general terms instead of playing word games that leave room for a vanilla claim later.

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Not really thought about this much yet. There isn't much content from him, but skimming his posts, I'd rule out Madge (early tunnel)

I agree with your other comments on Mark's possible buddies, but just wanted to point out that you shouldn't disqualify Madge as a buddy on her side of things. I'm sure she decided to tunnel someone before the game even started. Tunnelling a scum buddy is just good value. Mark's reactions to that tunneling would be the thing to look at (and I think they felt genuine? Worth a check if this becomes relevant).


wam wrote:This in pinging me as in votes and my perception freeze is more likely to be lynched than Mark. ....

I agree. As of Friday, moody was apparently reading freezeblade as more scummy than Mark as well (though not totally clear if this list is ordered, and in what direction).
moody7277 wrote:votable:
SDK
freezeblade
Mark
LaserGuy
by SDK
Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:37 am UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Meta Mafia II: Day 5
Replies: 1012
Views: 74731

Re: Meta Mafia II: Day Two

Madge wrote:If SDK flips town then Plytho is on the hot seat.

This is the first truly concerning thing I think you've posted all game, Madge.
by SDK
Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:01 pm UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Meta Mafia II: Day 5
Replies: 1012
Views: 74731

Re: Meta Mafia II: Day Two

plytho wrote:This post from SDK pinged me earlier as a hint for his scumbuddies to NK freezeblade.

Explain? Where do you see me doing this?
by SDK
Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:45 pm UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Meta Mafia II: Day 5
Replies: 1012
Views: 74731

Re: Meta Mafia II: Day Two

BoomFrog wrote:
SDK wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:SDK - are you going to claim?

I suppose that's the proper thing to do. I am vanilla.

Why did you not claim before the first D1 deadline?

Not really much point claiming when you're vanilla. I would have if asked, but I didn't even consider it.
by SDK
Fri Jun 08, 2018 3:44 pm UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Meta Mafia II: Day 5
Replies: 1012
Views: 74731

Re: Meta Mafia II: Day Two

Super quick because I don't have time to do proper tear downs today...

wam's Day 1 ain't too bad. Feels okay for the most part, reacts a bit defensively to Sabrar's list, asks for an extension (though that was before my wagon started), decent reads list. Lots of jokes. Natural progression between myself and Vicarin votes. Both feels and acts townie as far as I can tell.

The start of wam's Day 2 bugged me, but seeing where he's coming from after Day 1, it makes a lot more sense. wam's here, he's involved, he's hitting a lot of people in a lot of ways. wam is town.
(Glad I did that reread.)


moody is too hard to read, so I'm going to skip him for now...


mpolo is town. He's gotta be. Not picking up any scum vibes here, and I think the work he's been doing is totally legit, coming from the right place.

(By the way, hope your operation went well, mpolo!)




So I'm reading a lot of people as pretty strongly town. Usually when that happens, it means there are scum among the lurkers (Mark gets bumped up the list as a result). Boomfrog's content all looks great so far (I like his approach to me, for example), and I had suspicions that threetwoone might be town anyway. Should confirm since he's good at playing as scum (at least... I think he is? Not sure I've ever played against him).


TOWN
jimbobmacdoodle (if he's scum, he's playing really really well - unconfirmed at this moment, however)
mpolo
wam
Madge
plytho

Boomfrog (confirmation read through will likely put Boomfrog in the town pile)
LaserGuy (probably town too, but hard to tell for sure)
Mark_Cangila (previously had a town read on him, but I can't remember why - must check that)

moody7277 (need to read through, but I can't read moody anyway)
Freezeblade
SCUM

More work to be done, things might shift around a bit.


I'll put this back on now. Certainly not going to get a better lead today.

Vote freezeblade
by SDK
Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:10 pm UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Meta Mafia II: Day 5
Replies: 1012
Views: 74731

Re: Meta Mafia II: Day Two

jimbobmacdoodle wrote:SDK - are you going to claim?

I suppose that's the proper thing to do. I am vanilla.
by SDK
Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:48 pm UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Meta Mafia II: Day 5
Replies: 1012
Views: 74731

Re: Meta Mafia II: Day Two

BoomFrog wrote:But in that case I'd trust SDK's gut read so he's likely town.

This is something I'm hoping to improve on toDay, for the record. He's got enough content and interactions now that I can do better than a gut read.
by SDK
Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:14 pm UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Meta Mafia II: Day 5
Replies: 1012
Views: 74731

Re: Meta Mafia II: Day Two

plytho wrote:That's not addressing 3 and 4 directly. 3 is "why did it take you so long to acknowledge we were talking about a role-pm?" and 4 is "why did you use the explanation for asking the question instead of keeping the question when Sabrar asked you why you didn't see the fish?"

Okay, I'll try again...
3) I don't think it did take me so long. You and Sabrar correctly pointed out that my question could reveal Mark being a PR, so I retracted the question and gave some motivation for why I asked the question (since I was getting some heat for this). That was the first time I realized what I had done, in my first post of the day, my first post after you guys first pointed it out. Can you explain where you see me delaying?

4) Sabrar asked for clarification, which I gave. You're trying to say that Sabrar specifically asked why I decided to keep the question, but I don't and didn't read it that way (I was answering the question "What does this even mean?"), so I gave him more detail on my motivation for asking it. Looking back, I was very confused by his mention of VT's... maybe he meant that to ask about the PR thing specifically? If he did, he could have asked again after seeing I had no idea what he was talking about.

You, however, did specifically ask for my motivation for keeping the question (weird, it's almost like you forgot something small about your own posts...). I answered (in the same post where I answered Sabrar) that "I thought it still added value to ask for the specifics". That was my second post on the topic, still on the same day. Can you explain where you're seeing me dodging anything here? I had already admitted that I was being stupid.

Your next post here is where things really got kicked off for you. You caught my mistake on the "delete" vs. "retract" thing, and got caught up in Matrix14 not being in the role PM (which I never said). Your next post on the subject:
plytho wrote:
SDK wrote:
plytho wrote:There's no mention of matrix 14 in the role pm.

Right, but I wrote the question before seeing that it was from his role PM.
Yeah, no. That won't fly. You don't get to use your original (arguably more justifiable) motivation for asking the question when you later on acknowledge that you decided to keep the question after becoming aware it was about the role pm. You're deliberately misleading us here.

I've repeated many many times now that my motivation stands on all other counts. I don't know how I can make it more clear to you. Maybe I can quote myself directly?
SDK wrote:Depending on what Mark came back with I thought it could shed some light on whether or not Madge is right to suspect Mark based on the PM stuff. I thought we'd get a simple answer back like "Clarification on my posting restriction" or "A question about Matrix14" rather than something more damning like "I don't know what you want me to say..." or some other creative way that new players talk themselves into traps. That would have been fine too, of course. I'm only talking about the PM question, not the werewolf question. I also have no idea if Mark is a VT or not - I don't understand why you're saying that. As for why I didn't see the fish, I really have no idea. The thought that he could be asking about a power role didn't even occur to me, which is ridiculous since it's a very likely reason to be PMing the mod. I have no excuse there other than my motivation unrelated to PR's.
Bolded are the reasons I kept the question.


plytho wrote:It feels like you're either missing the essence of my issue with you or deliberately trying to play it down so it looks like I'm nitpicking. I feel I've been making myself pretty clear, which is why the latter feels more plausible.

Maybe I am missing the essence of your issue with me. As it happens, I ALSO feel I've been making myself pretty clear, so...

Let's just try to go back to basics. I'll reply directly to to your list of grievances:
plytho wrote:1)Rolefishing mark, keeping the question open after being aware it was a question about his role pm

Yep. Still don't think any reasonable player would ever try this, but sure.

plytho wrote:2)not acknowledging you were aware of it being about his role pm even though you apparently were, and defending your motivation for asking the question with options that aren't relevant after you realized it was a role-pm question ("there's no mention of matrix 14 in the role pm")

I didn't do this. This is you misunderstanding me (and maybe Sabrar too). Details above.

plytho wrote:3)forgetting what happened when you realized mark asked a question about his role pm. You claim you made a conscious decision to keep the question. Seems to me you'd remember this sort of decision.

I did make a conscious decision to keep the question. I did remember that decision. The only thing I forgot was whether I was thinking about deleting or retracting the question. The essence of what I was thinking was remembered correctly, like I said before.

plytho wrote:4)active lurking. your only content until your question to mark is explaining matrix 14 to mpolo.

The game started Friday morning. I posted six times with little to go on, then left work at noon. You should know by now that I rarely post anything over the weekend, certainly nothing substantial. I came back Monday morning with a full read through. Do you think I was intentionally ignoring anything in those first four hours of the game?

plytho wrote:5)thinking I'm a PR and trying to lynch me.
SDK wrote: Thinking about what the mafia might know makes sense, but plytho is analyzing this from the view of a PR.

That is not me thinking you're a PR. That is me thinking that you're trying to get into the headspace of a PR, which I think mafia is much more likely to do than a townie. Why on Earth do you think I would ever mention in-thread that I think you're a PR? That doesn't make sense from any perspective.


Okay, I'm done defending myself now. If you have specific questions, I'll answer them, but I'm wasting my time with you instead of reading moody and wam this morning. And jimbob's big reads post! I'll try to get that done today still, but may not have time now until tomorrow morning.
by SDK
Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:31 pm UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Meta Mafia II: Day 5
Replies: 1012
Views: 74731

Re: Meta Mafia II: Day Two

Well, minus the insults, I guess. Sorry, plytho.
by SDK
Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:30 pm UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Meta Mafia II: Day 5
Replies: 1012
Views: 74731

Re: Meta Mafia II: Day Two

Kind of hilarious that I'm accidentally roleplaying now. See you tomorrow, everyone.
by SDK
Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:27 pm UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Meta Mafia II: Day 5
Replies: 1012
Views: 74731

Re: Meta Mafia II: Day Two

plytho wrote:@SDK: why aren’t you voting freezeblade? I thought you had him as 100% certain scum?

Thought about it. Don't feel like trying to lead today.
by SDK
Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:24 pm UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Meta Mafia II: Day 5
Replies: 1012
Views: 74731

Re: Meta Mafia II: Day Two

plytho wrote:
SDK wrote:
plytho wrote:The third mistake, which I'm really having trouble as seeing as anything but deliberate is not acknowledging we're talking about a role-pm here.
The fourth mistake is using your initial motivation for asking the question instead of the motivation for keeping the question. Why, from a townie perspective would you do this? You made a conscious decision to keep the question. That's obviously what we want to know about.

Ah, I think I see where we're miscommunicating now. So I wrote that question to Mark with the intention of getting him to clarify so Madge could focus elsewhere (if he was town) or so he could out himself (if he was a werewolf). I gave a few examples of what responses I expected I might get (a question about Matrix14, for example). That was my motivation for asking the question.

My motivation for keeping the question (or not retracting the question, if you like) was shadier, I admit, because I still didn't think about the fact that he might be asking about a possible PR even once it was apparent he was asking about his role PM. That was stupid of me. I never meant to imply that I kept the question because of the Matrix14 thing though since my motivation for writing it at first was before I saw that post (or at least before I internalized it). My motivation for keeping it had nothing to do with Matrix14, but I thought might still be beneficial in the other ways I mentioned (I expected it to be a question about his posting restriction, which it was).

I think that covers 3 and 4 at least?
It doesn’t. Did it take you this long to become aware that keeping the question was shadier than asking the question?

Also, where are we miscommunicating? I feel I’ve been pretty clear and you’ve been dodging.

Do you even know what you're saying anymore? You keep grilling me for bringing up Matrix14 as justification for keeping the question despite the fact that AH HA! MATRIX14 ISN'T IN THE ROLE PM - that's the miscommunication. I brought up Matrix14 (and other points) for why I asked the question. The other points stand whether or not it's a role PM thing.

To address 3 and 4 directly:
3) We are talking about a role PM.
4) My initial motivation was exactly the same as the keeping-the-question motivation, minus Matrix14.

Simple!

plytho wrote:
If you are town, plytho, I want you to try to think as scum!SDK for a second. Your story makes perfect sense for how I'm covering my ass and making things up to justify role-fishing. What doesn't make sense to me, though, is why I would have role-fished in the first place. Can you honestly see me asking a question so blatant on purpose? Can you honestly think that I would try for such a high risk, low reward play? Just, take a minute, read my initial post asking for that info, and see if you can justify me even asking that question for your assumed reasons. I just don't see it.
You have a point, it doesn’t make sense for town or scum to do such blatant rolefishing. That’s why I’m focused on the making things up and covering your ass part. That’s where you look most suspicious.

God damn, you are being such an idiot. I hope that in future games you won't take minor memory slips so seriously.
by SDK
Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:40 pm UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Meta Mafia II: Day 5
Replies: 1012
Views: 74731

Re: Meta Mafia II: Day Two

wam wrote:
SDK wrote:
wam wrote:On that note all through N1 my view.waa.that SDK was scum that had managed to weasel out the lynch

You thought VIcarin would flip town? Can you explain why?

That clearly does not align with what you posted end of Day 2 (here and here, maybe elsewhere).



There's a logic fail in here that I think maybe a slip. This only works if you know SDK and Vicarin are opposite alignments. I thought that SDK was scum who got away with it. It doesn't therefore imply vic was town. I thought vic was scummy and wasn't sure overnight which way the flip would go. They could easily have been buddies.

Right, but "got away with it" or "weasel out" imply to me that I am scum who successfully got a townie lynched instead. Surely lynching my buddy instead, with me clearly on the chopping block for Day 2 doesn't count as getting away with anything. Right?

wam wrote:
SDK wrote:wam wrote:
I'm torn as I generally take the view information helps town but I can sort of see madges point. Will mull it over.

Did you check this for yourself when reading through Madge's post?


I don't understand the question?

"Madge's point" was that maybe the fruit receiver should not claim. She had some reasoning (based on Matrix14) to back that up. You presumably agreed with her reasoning. I'm asking whether you checked through the Matrix14 stuff for yourself to come to that conclusion?

wam wrote:Thought it was obvious, both con town we had thought you were scum.

You did have other comments there, but they were clearly not the focus of your post. Just though it was a bit strange that you didn't just come out and say that.
by SDK
Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:30 pm UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Meta Mafia II: Day 5
Replies: 1012
Views: 74731

Re: Meta Mafia II: Day Two

And four out of those five were voting me end of day, I think. Maybe you're right! Gotta recalibrate slightly with Vicarin's town flip, and I'll have a case on wam up at some point. I'll keep that in mind going forward, make sure it's not colouring my reads too much.

You can find my case on freezeblade here. He's the only one I'm sure is scum right now, with wam and moody being the two I want to devote the most attention to at the moment.
by SDK
Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:51 pm UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Meta Mafia II: Day 5
Replies: 1012
Views: 74731

Re: Meta Mafia II: Day Two

BoomFrog wrote:@SDK: If you are town you have some serious OMGUS goggles on haha.

Really? What do you mean? Apart from my (former) read on plytho, I don't think I've been very OMGUSy this game. Maybe you could make the case for my Sabrar read being OMGUS, but I think I had good reason for that one.
by SDK
Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:39 pm UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Meta Mafia II: Day 5
Replies: 1012
Views: 74731

Re: Meta Mafia II: Day Two

wam wrote:On that note all through N1 my view.waa.that SDK was scum that had managed to weasel out the lynch

You thought VIcarin would flip town? Can you explain why?

That clearly does not align with what you posted end of Day 2 (here and here, maybe elsewhere).


plytho wrote:Conclusion: in my opinion anyone who received fruit should claim. If anyone claims fruit the fruit vendor should claim.

I agree with the first, but disagree with the second. If we have a Fruit Vendor, they are effectively an innocent child. That can be extremely powerful later in the game, and I don't think we benefit enough from them outing themselves now (there are plenty of vanillas left to get killed). Someone receiving Fruit gives us the same setup information because seriously, why would scum lie about receiving Fruit at this point? Just asking for a death sentence once we reach mylo and go for a mass claim.

Actually, you know what, I disagree with both. Scum are in the position where they have gained no information at this point (unless they had a successful rolecop, I guess). I think there's a good chance that they don't know exactly which setup we're in. Confirming that could be a huge boon to them. What do we gain? Why should I care if we have a cop or not? We're not at the point yet where we can hunt scum by puzzling through all this, so I don't see that we gain anything at this point. I think fruit vendor AND RECEIVER should keep quiet at this point.

... Checking Matrix14, there's only a 50/50 chance this matters. If we're in game 5, the mafia already know it. If we're in game 10, the mafia might think we're in game 6... so no big deal, actually. They're either up against a Tracker/Doctor/Backup (6) or a Even-Tracker/Jailer/Fruit Vendor (10) - not going to change how they really play the game. So, on third thought (sorry) the fruit receiver should claim, but not the vendor themself (reverting back to my first thought). Not a great gain, but no real loss. (jimbob's got it right, I think) (Whatever, if you want to keep it secret to keep the mafia paranoid about a backup like Madge said, that's fine. It doesn't really matter)

wam wrote:I think the biggest benefit to town of a fruit recipentant claim is that we know were only dealing with 1 anti town faction.
This is a good point. Doesn't help the mafia at all since they'd already known this much.



10-3... 8-3 (now)... 6-3... 4-3... oh, good, we have four mislynches available, assuming we're dealing with one scum team. Maybe we aren't totally screwed after all. I assumed we had three and thought it might be mylo if I'm lynched today.


wam wrote:I'm torn as I generally take the view information helps town but I can sort of see madges point. Will mull it over.

Did you check this for yourself when reading through Madge's post?

wam wrote:
BoomFrog wrote:If SDK is scum wam is town haha.
I think plytho is more town if SDK is scum!

I agree with both of these. I have some information in my role PM, however, that leads me to believe that SDK is town.

wam wrote:So had a quick look back at sabrar s and vics reads as looking at dead towns readsnis something we normally miss.

Sabrar - was convinced on Vic. Was also suspicious of SDK . Along with freeze and me.

Vic - viewed SDK as scum. Also was suspicious of Madge near end of day 1. Also links mpolo and SDK which is an interesting read.

Any conclusions based on all this?

wam wrote:I would like the top two lynch targets from everyone.

1. freezeblade
2. wam? Probably? Will confirm.


moody7277 wrote:jimbob's post here was why I was saying D1 that the SDK lynch would be more informative.

Would it have been more informative if I had flipped town instead of Vicarin? I think jimbob would be saying the exact same thing. Two townie wagons Day 1 is a real bad start.
by SDK
Wed Jun 06, 2018 2:16 pm UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Meta Mafia II: Day 5
Replies: 1012
Views: 74731

Re: Meta Mafia II: Day Two

Sorry I'm late everyone! Forgot to mention that I was out of town for the weekend, then Monday and Tuesday for work as well. Meant to get on here for a quick post, but I forgot on Monday and Tuesday was just too busy with the drive home and getting the baby to bed.

But I'm here! I'll catch up in a minute. In the meantime, you can have some content I wrote right after nightfall...

Spoiler:
20 seconds too late!

plytho wrote:Please point out where you think you did.

Here.

Funnily enough, I also found an unposted thing on my computer when I came to work this morning. This was meant for in case I was lynched, but I guess I don't have to worry about being nightkilled tonight at least!

"Okay, that's it from me today.

Madge, Mark, mpolo and jimbob are my strongest town reads.
moody, LaserGuy and threetwoone are probably town, but not strong.
wam and plytho deserve a closer look.
My preferred lynches are freezeblade, Sabrar, Vicarin, in that order.

I should be able to check in tonight and then again right before deadline."

I wonder if plytho could be Vicarin's buddy? I love tying townies to my scum buddies as scum. Only flaw in that logic is that plytho was still trying really really hard to get me lynched still which would... mean that Vicarin can't be my buddy since I'm town obviously! Diabolical. He's like a mini version of scum me!

I also wonder if I'm wrong about Sabrar. But I suppose I always wonder that... Otherwise, not much has changed on that list, I think. I should take a look at the final votals once we get Vic's flip. If he's town, we might be screwed. Maybe a cop will clear my name tonight. That would be splendid.

Spoiler:
plytho wrote:List of grievances:
1)Rolefishing mark, keeping the question open after being aware it was a question about his role pm
2)not acknowledging you were aware of it being about his role pm even though you apparently were, and defending your motivation for asking the question with options that aren't relevant after you realized it was a role-pm question ("there's no mention of matrix 14 in the role pm")
3)forgetting what happened when you realized mark asked a question about his role pm. You claim you made a conscious decision to keep the question. Seems to me you'd remember this sort of decision.

4)active lurking. your only content until your question to mark is explaining matrix 14 to mpolo.
5)thinking I'm a PR and trying to lynch me.
SDK wrote: Thinking about what the mafia might know makes sense, but plytho is analyzing this from the view of a PR.


The first mistake was asking the question, not considering the possible role-fishing.
The second mistake was keeping the question and not considering the possible role-fishing even when you knew it was about marks role-pm.
The third mistake, which I'm really having trouble as seeing as anything but deliberate is not acknowledging we're talking about a role-pm here.
The fourth mistake is using your initial motivation for asking the question instead of the motivation for keeping the question. Why, from a townie perspective would you do this? You made a conscious decision to keep the question. That's obviously what we want to know about.
The fifth mistake is forgetting when exactly you asked this question.

That's a lot of mistakes and two, three and four are very hard to explain as a townie.

Ah, I think I see where we're miscommunicating now. So I wrote that question to Mark with the intention of getting him to clarify so Madge could focus elsewhere (if he was town) or so he could out himself (if he was a werewolf). I gave a few examples of what responses I expected I might get (a question about Matrix14, for example). That was my motivation for asking the question.

My motivation for keeping the question (or not retracting the question, if you like) was shadier, I admit, because I still didn't think about the fact that he might be asking about a possible PR even once it was apparent he was asking about his role PM. That was stupid of me. I never meant to imply that I kept the question because of the Matrix14 thing though since my motivation for writing it at first was before I saw that post (or at least before I internalized it). My motivation for keeping it had nothing to do with Matrix14, but I thought might still be beneficial in the other ways I mentioned (I expected it to be a question about his posting restriction, which it was).

I think that covers 3 and 4 at least? I recognize and apologize for the other mistakes. No harm done, luckily, but it was stupid.

If you are town, plytho, I want you to try to think as scum!SDK for a second. Your story makes perfect sense for how I'm covering my ass and making things up to justify role-fishing. What doesn't make sense to me, though, is why I would have role-fished in the first place. Can you honestly see me asking a question so blatant on purpose? Can you honestly think that I would try for such a high risk, low reward play? Just, take a minute, read my initial post asking for that info, and see if you can justify me even asking that question for your assumed reasons. I just don't see it.

Spoiler:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:On SDK, I really have a hard time seeing him as scum with his recent content in particular. I think he asked why people were town reading Sabrar, and I refer him to my second reads post for my last considered opinion.

Quoting your reasoning here then:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Sabrar - (slightly town, mostly gut feeling): He's continued to post reads that seem to come a little out of nowhere (plytho not mafia, but could be werewolf?? for example). He did at least give justifications for his earlier reads. I like his prod of Vicarin to explain his numbers question. I also like the pressure he's putting on SDK (I'm used to seeing SDK put that sort of pressure on others!). His vote on wam was a bit of a surprise, but that's the only thing I find that I don't particularly like in his recent content. Probably town.

@Sabrar - is there more to your belief that wam is scum than your "try-hard defence" comment? Would you explain it please? Also, is the tradition comment in any way important, because if so, I missed what it was about?

His pressure on me is fine. When he pointed out that he wasn't voting me (and even called that a possible town slip), I had second thoughts. When he pushed back with "you really don't understand?" the thought crossed my mind that he might just be applying pressure as town (I said this before). His vote proved that wasn't the case. Do you like his justification for his vote on me? I don't think his pressure on me lead to that vote naturally.


I'm really conflicted on moody. He votes me here, which is fine in context. I can readily believe that someone who was reading me as scum partway through the game might continue to do so - I am good at fabricating cases as scum (though I seriously doubt I'd have been able to drive up the motivation when I thought it was very likely I'd still be lynched, but whatever). So the vote is fine. What's less fine is tying me to specific individuals in the manner he did. Thinking about the effect of a flip is fine too... but the way he did so really rubs me the wrong way. Gotta flesh that out more... Maybe it's nothing.


Vicarin wrote:I have read Seaside, which got brought up, and that monster themed one where SDK lead everyone around as the SK while noone has any idea what was going on.

Both of those were great games. I love playing as SK. So much fun. For me at least. :mrgreen:


Obviously some of that is inconsequential now that we got Vicarin and Sabrar's flips. The Sabrar kill is interesting. Someone trying to prove me wrong? It doesn't really make sense as a kill to me, but I guess that doesn't point to anyone in particular? Maybe I'll give that some thought to that as I catch up. If Sabrar and I are both town it seems like a real easy way to get a double lynch. Or maybe I'm overestimating my own read of Sabrar...
by SDK
Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:08 pm UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Meta Mafia II: Day 5
Replies: 1012
Views: 74731

Re: Meta Mafia II: Day One

plytho: I answered that question already.

Wam: it's a soft deadline, so it's not as if I can just post and close out the day.

Sabrar: plytho's right that I will "vote defensively" if I have to. Vicarin's not my favourite choice, but he is not a bad lynch at all. I also thought you'd probably see that as buddying, but I always point out what I think is true. What advantage would I gain from that buddying anyway? Seems to me there's no scum gain there.

Vote Vicarin

Day 2 is going to be tough, but I guess I'll see you there!
by SDK
Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:33 am UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Meta Mafia II: Day 5
Replies: 1012
Views: 74731

Re: Meta Mafia II: Day One

Yeah, I don't know if I'm reading badly this game, or if a bunch of townies are acting crazy. Maybe both. Moody's and Vicarin's votes are both a little weird.

Vicarin's back and forth on our alignment's being linked may just be a high estimation of our scum hunting abilities, Sabrar. I don't think that part's the slam dunk that chaining often is. The rest, though doesn't feel good either.

I'll be back before deadline.
by SDK
Thu May 31, 2018 7:15 pm UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Meta Mafia II: Day 5
Replies: 1012
Views: 74731

Re: Meta Mafia II: Day One

Sabrar wrote:
SDK wrote:So... he posts a list he knows is scummy to get reactions
Never said I 'knew' my list was scummy. It was provocative, non-standard, aimed to get reactions. It was a gambit. It wasn't scummy.

Fine, but you can see why someone might consider it scummy, yes?

Sabrar wrote:
SDK wrote:His overreaction to this pressure is blatant.
You seem to deliberately ignore context. It was not an overreaction because someone out there considered me slightly scummy. It was a meta-read specifically on you, I would never have used the same argument against anyone else.

I understand that, but your "meta-read" is based on me apparently being unable to misread you, no matter how scummy your posting. I say your list in particular might be scummy (and you know damn well it might have been). You say I am scum for calling you scum (which I did not do). It doesn't follow.

Sabrar wrote:
SDK wrote:I don't think I've ever done this much work as scum!
Dark Tower would like to have a word with you.

Oh man, am I glad that game panned out. I worked hard for that final day to close the deal, yeah. Pretty sure I'm putting more hours in here though.



freezeblade wrote:Oh look. SDK 100% sure on a scum read on me. Seems like a repeat of like...every game ever that has SDK and I in it. You're emboldened with this read likely because most of the games you play with me, I am scum. Thus my scummy meta. Just because I'm usually scum historically on this forum, does not mean I am scum this time.

I correctly called you as town in Diablo. In Diablo you were doing more than just defending yourself Day 1. You were asking questions and giving opinions, you were prodding lurkers, you were looking for answers.

freezeblade wrote:*shrug* Saying anything is "a must" in a game like this...is telling players how they should play the game. Not everyone wants to play like you do.

Fair enough. I'll just change that slightly then: I expect that you in particular would definitely have commented on my wagon as town.
by SDK
Thu May 31, 2018 6:05 pm UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Meta Mafia II: Day 5
Replies: 1012
Views: 74731

Re: Meta Mafia II: Pre-game

freezeblade:
Spoiler:
Having fun with colours feels like townie fun, but doesn't actually help anything. freezeblade's gone for the long weekend, which is fine and normal for him, but no content at all prior to that, including a complete lack of questions and real discussion is not.

This is his first real post, three days in. He answers some questions and defends himself, but no hunting here whatsoever.

Some original thought in this post, at least, but it's not strong. I don't think analyzing the random groupings is going to get anywhere when people mostly ignored them. Calls jimbob scummy, with a couple okay reasons. Hedges on Madge vs. Mark which I'm not a fan of at all.

No vote down as of deadline. No comment on any of the leading wagons. Votes jimbob after extension with no additional justification (but some defensiveness of his own).

freezeblade wrote:Maybe you're not seeing much recently because we are on the very end of D1, and not only that, but an extended D1. I really don't see much in the way of anything to comment on until we have more information D2.

Need I say my old refrain? Day one sucks.
No way. Sure, you hate Day 1, but I don't believe this is legitimate. You haven't followed up on Madge vs. Mark (despite calling them "super interesting" earlier), you haven't talked about me at all (which is an absolute must following the extension, frankly, if you were town, you'd be voting me), and you're voting for someone all by yourself with no apparent interest in who we lynch. This is not town you. Town you does hate Day 1 and does complain about it, but at least you try!

So we've got one here. I was afraid I might not get a better option than Sabrar (since I'm pretty sure few will follow me on that), but freezeblade is scum. For sure.

Vote freezeblade

plytho will probably say I'm diverting attention from myself and my buddy Vicarin, and that's okay. Even if you lynch me, take down freezeblade afterwards. I'm seriously 100% sure on this read.
by SDK
Thu May 31, 2018 5:26 pm UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Meta Mafia II: Day 5
Replies: 1012
Views: 74731

Re: Meta Mafia II: Day One

Sabrar wrote:So you went for a bad idea while you looked for a better option?

Lynching lurkers is only a bad idea when no better options are available. There were better options available, but LIKE I ALREADY SAID, I did not expect freezeblade to be lynched.

Also, I looked at your Shakespeare link. Why do you say that I was pushing back hard against a lurker lynch? It looks like I wanted to lynch a lurker that had a little bit of content (Madge) instead of a lurker with no real content (DethStalker). Isn't that completely consistent with what I'm doing here?


plytho wrote:
SDK wrote:
plytho wrote:There's no mention of matrix 14 in the role pm.

Right, but I wrote the question before seeing that it was from his role PM.
Yeah, no. That won't fly. You don't get to use your original (arguably more justifiable) motivation for asking the question when you later on acknowledge that you decided to keep the question after becoming aware it was about the role pm. You're deliberately misleading us here.

I mean, I get that you're not going to listen to me regardless, but you picked on some minor thing and I defend against that minor thing. You can continue to suspect me if you want to, but you can't add "there's no mention of matrix 14 in the role pm" to your list of grievances.


moody7277 wrote:I just got back from some serious real life shit errands, so please give me some space. How some of you people can post clear until 4am I'll never understand.

Hope you got it all worked out, moody. Not trying to get you to post at 4am, just figured you'd weigh in on the most important wagon of the day. This is a good post.


LaserGuy wrote:I find plytho's progression on the rolefish issue to be very natural and townie...

I agree, but didn't see it that way at the time. Thanks for the explanation.


Vicarin wrote:@SDK: the way that I thought would be easiest to breadcrumb would be to just give a like and dislike number that intersect at your role. The advantage to town is related to what I think Sabrar doesn't want to talk about today, but I could be wrong. Mafia would need to guess that someone is not just messing around with giving random numbers, so I don't think it would have benefited them much.

If everyone had done that, sure, but there was no way to communicate that ahead of time without tipping off mafia. Even if everyone had done that, most of the shared numbers could not have aligned with the actual game based on what the mafia would have already known. Ultimately, this could have ended very badly for town, so it's good that most people ignored you. Do you agree?

Vicarin wrote:you do rarely forget stuff

Others have said this before, but I actually don't think that's true. Shrug.

Vic, do you have a town read on Sabrar. Why?



Thanks for that, wam. I was hoping I didn't have to go back through Vic's other town games. I agree that he does feel more aggressive or pointed in those links than he has this game.

To all those who suspect Vic for meta reasons: Is this consistent with why you think Vicarin is not obv town this game?


plytho wrote:
moody7277 wrote:after extension, SDK seems to be able to collect himself
Perhaps that's the difference between the attitude of scum about to be lynched and scum seeing an opportunity to save themselves? Doesn't feel like townie progress to me.

I'm sure this won't sway you, but I don't think I've ever done this much work as scum!


Vicarin wrote:What about the case where he was bussing SDK and now he gets townie cred without having to get his buddy lynched?

Uh, what? Do you really think this is a possibility?


wam wrote:This strike me as an odd thing for town SDK to say and strikes me as coming more from a scum.mindset.

I thought someone might say that, but I have literally never been mislynched on this site. I'm much more accustomed to being nightkilled. It's great, because then I'm free to gambit all I like to provide content and the only side effect might be some minor pressure that leads the nightkill elsewhere! To be mislynched Day 1 on my first town game back is... an unfortunate change.
by SDK
Thu May 31, 2018 4:35 pm UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Meta Mafia II: Day 5
Replies: 1012
Views: 74731

Re: Meta Mafia II: Day One

Sabrar's hot and ready:
Spoiler:
Sabrar's first few posts are fine when taken in context of Peaceful Whale.

Decent thoughts about the Fruit Vendor, and I like his thought process in this post (not just because I think he's right, but he's considering the scumside like a good townie should).

Still don't like this post though. I can see that he might have been trying for reactions to this list, and he did get some, but these reads are fabricated. Taking Peaceful Whale into account, it's possible that's what I'm seeing here.

Sabrar wrote:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:If you had to lynch somebody right now, who would it be?
Mark, Vicarin, wam or you. Cannot narrow it down further.
Up to this point Sabrar has come down on the wrong side of Mark, but not confronted him at all. Same is true for Vicarin and jimbobmacdoodle. wam was asked a question in this same post. Ultimately, I don't like that Sabrar is being so passive with his reads here. He doesn't engage with any of these three until two days later when he asks Mark a question.

Speaking of reactions, apparently my reaction to that list is where Sabrar pegged me as scum. He's stated since that his read on me is pretty much exclusively because I'm reading him as scum. So... he posts a list he knows is scummy to get reactions, then when I say it "might be scummy" (note that I never called him scum up to this point), he says that proves I'm scum. This progression does not make sense, especially if you read my read of him here. I did intend to apply pressure to him, but my read is clearly super soft. His overreaction to this pressure is blatant.

This is continued when he points to Alien Warfare to prove that my supposed wrongness equates to scuminess. At this point I still have not come down hard against him, but he's claiming that me failing to read him as scum when I was not town (in Alien) means that me failing to read him as town here means I'm scum. For one thing, it's not even the same situation. For another, he has a very confused remembering of our history together. If you look back at our past games I have a history of misreading him for a sustained period of time before I can finally decide on him. Yes, I've typically been correct, but I need a lot of content and a lot of time before I feel comfortable calling Sabrar's alignment in any game. This game is no different.

Sabrar prods Vicarin and jimbob with a decent questions in a sharp kind of way. Might just be biased at this point, but they feel like they're looking for dirt, not answers.

Back to the fight with me (which is important, because it's at the center of Sabrar's illogical, not townie leaps), I have now come down on Sabrar as scum due to his reaction to my pressure. Do I have to go through each point there and show that they don't justify his scum read of me? (I do reply here to explain some of them). He's still on Alien and I still see no link between that game and this one.

So! Hopefully I've proven that Sabrar has no real basis for suspecting me here. Sabrar is certainly welcome to lynch me based on all sorts of things I've done in this thread. What he chose to focus on has no logic, no townie mindset and all the defensiveness in the world. He's also sure enough about it that he's using his read on me to smear wam at the same time (his reasoning for suspecting wam is very weak otherwise).

Sabrar does finally engage me with some questions, which is a big improvement on his mostly passive play, but takes my responses and twists them in ways that don't make sense. Sabrar lists our previous games there. I'd encourage anyone reading to take a look there for yourselves to see if Sabrar is making sense. He's not - I haven't checked myself, but I'm fairly confident that I failed to read Sabrar correctly and quickly in all those games but Diablo.


All told, this read has not been shaken. I'm fairly confident that Sabrar is scum. Primary points against are his passive play, asking far fewer questions than normal (at least early on), and voting for me for faulty and overly-defensive reasons.

A lot of people seem to have a strong town read of Sabrar. Could someone please explain how they see that?
by SDK
Wed May 30, 2018 8:30 pm UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Meta Mafia II: Day 5
Replies: 1012
Views: 74731

Re: Meta Mafia II: Day One

Look again at FAC668. It took me a day and a half of fighting before I caught you as scum.

Lurker lynches are bad when you have better options. I was looking for better options.
by SDK
Wed May 30, 2018 8:08 pm UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Meta Mafia II: Day 5
Replies: 1012
Views: 74731

Re: Meta Mafia II: Day One

SDK wrote:Sabrar, comin' right up.

Not sure why I said that since I have to leave now. Just blame DJ for my lurking.
by SDK
Wed May 30, 2018 7:43 pm UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Meta Mafia II: Day 5
Replies: 1012
Views: 74731

Re: Meta Mafia II: Day One

I just reread some of FAC668 and now remember exactly how painful it is to pin anything to both Sabrar and moody. Timely, perhaps, since I'm now wondering if they could both be scummers here. I basically want to lynch moody for one reason only: ignoring me. But okay, breaks over. Back to work. Sabrar, comin' right up.
by SDK
Wed May 30, 2018 6:39 pm UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Meta Mafia II: Day 5
Replies: 1012
Views: 74731

Re: Meta Mafia II: Day One

Sabrar wrote:Hello SDK-friend!! I'm so glad we got an extension and I can try to get to know you better! I feel like we hadn't talked enough... Could you maybe answer a few short questions so that I will be able to follow your thoughts?

Of course! I'm always happy to answer questions when they are asked so nicely, so peacefully and so whale-like.

Sabrar wrote:What was your actual opinion when you posted this in Alien Warfare? Were you really satisfied with Sabar's explanation? Your read feels like stream-of-consciousness (which I can relate to very well :D ) and your end-conclusion lets him off the hook.

That was my first post in-game, so my vote for you was a late RVS vote since voting for you is fun. That entire paragraph is me trying to pretend I have the town wincon and move through your early blunders that the town picked up on and (I thought) hammered harder than they really should have. Yes, it was stream-of-consciousness. Yes, you did "convince me" only because everyone else seemed to be convinced.

Sabrar wrote:
SDK wrote:By the way, I hopped on freezeblade to see what threetwoone (and others) would do with that. If it had somehow led to a lynch, that wouldn't have been the worst thing in the world,
Could you elaborate on this? What information were you hoping to get out of a lurker-lynch?

The lurker lynch was unlikely to happen, but if it did it wouldn't be so bad. Lynching the lurker was not where info was coming from, though. The information was who was willing to go for a lurker lynch over whatever other reads they might have. Presenting a valid option to try to tear people away from their reads tends to be a good way to determine the strength (or truth) of their reads. We hadn't had a good wagon yet, and I like getting at least one going before we finally settle on a lynch for Day 1.

Sabrar wrote:
SDK wrote:mpolo is almost certainly town. Again, this is based more on style than anything else.
I feel that post contains very little of mpolo's style. Which scum!mpolo game is the base of your comparison?

Seaside and Ghost are the two mpolo scum games I remember off-hand. There may be more. It's been a year since I last played with him (or anyone), so it's possible he's changed, but he was extremely consistent in his play over the... three years I played with him regularly. It's not like I have to go back and reference games when I'm reading mpolo. His particular meta just tends to naturally ping my scumdar.


I asked you some questions too, friend. I would appreciate some answers, above all on why you are voting for me.
by SDK
Wed May 30, 2018 6:26 pm UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Meta Mafia II: Day 5
Replies: 1012
Views: 74731

Re: Meta Mafia II: Day One

Undesirable Number Two: Vicarin
Spoiler:
Vicarin's numbers game is strange, but I'm not at all sure that it was scum motivated. PR hunting is not something scum do regularly. Like I said earlier, it's a high risk, low reward play. This particular method of role fishing is extra questionable as well - Vicarin says later that it looks like no one chose to breadcrumb using his numbers game, but I don't think he can even say that. Answering that question with your truthful role as a joke works just as well as anything. So, though I see no reason why town Vicarin would ask this question, I see little reason for scum Vicarin to attempt it either. Like, maaaaaybe he was thinking about asking "What game out of 14 does everything think we're in?" but obviously that's a terrible question that deserves to be lynched so he toned it down? I doubt it though. I don't know Vicarin, but ya'll seem happy to say that he usually hunts PR's as town, so I see no reason to hold this against him. His next post lays a nice foundation for this town motivation, so even less likely to suspect him based on that. (Vicarin does state that "there are 2 wolf setups and 3 SK setups that the wolf's/SK would loooove to distinguish between" saying that they do get the most info, but I doubt he'd be quite so brazen if he is one of those wolves).

Vicarin wrote:With regards to the fruit vendor speculation, I'd say that having the fruit vendor be able to act like an innocent child is way more important than trying to help narrow down the setup.
Hmm... That's a little worse, however. This contradicts the town Vicarin I was just talking about.

Vicarin's reads list breakdown!
- Chooses not to come down on Mark. Safe play.
- No real conclusion on plytho, which is troubling since he has conflicting reads here.
- Echos my thoughts on Madge rather than writing his own. Could just be lazy, could be scum going for an easy read.
Overall, a fine reads list, but doesn't give a lot to work with.

Next post puts the third vote on freezeblade (after jimbob and me). No additional justification, so this is essentially just a lurker vote, explicitly choosing one of the wagons with 2 votes already (other options are Madge and Mark, and justification is given for not choosing those). Possibly a scum bandwagon jump, but I'm not really seeing it.

Reads list, take 2 is about the same as the first. Not a lot of content, but decent reads. His read of Sabrar feels townie, in particular. Votes mpolo as a lurker. Kinda highlights a general lack of scum reads (Vicarin is reading a few people as neutral, but literally no one as scum). The fact that he's not concerned about this is concerning. Might have to do a meta check on that one.

Next post feels a bit defensive re: wam's comment. Also very much just going with the flow for both my wagon and his own read of mpolo. Vicarin started with mpolo based on nothing but lurker, and now doesn't seem inclined to think about his read even though mpolo has actually given some content. Not a fan.


Okay, quick meta check... Looking at Newbie New Year mafia (where Vic was town cop). Oh, was that Vic's first game!? You guys are all ready to judge based on meta for someone who's played only two previous games (one of which was the Alien gongshow)? Geez.

I also don't see a big difference here. Votes without much supporting reasoning alongside, has a T/S list without a strong scum read, posts short thoughts on random subjects... You guys said he was so townie it hurts, but I don't really see that either. Feels pretty similar to me. Meta check: unconvincing.


Overall, Vicarin is a bit concerning.

Vicarin:
- You started your numbers game thinking people might be able to breadcrumb. You seemed disappointed that apparently no one chose to play. 1) What would that hypothetical breadcrumb post have looked like? 2) Can you explain the advantage that both town and mafia would have gained if someone had breadcrumbed in that way?
- You have no real scum reads of your own. Is this concerning to you? Why or why not?
- Please explain why am I scum.
- Who (apart from me) is scum, and why?
by SDK
Wed May 30, 2018 5:15 pm UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Meta Mafia II: Day 5
Replies: 1012
Views: 74731

Re: Meta Mafia II: Day One

First up: plytho.
Spoiler:
plytho starts the game with some setup spec specifically revolving around which factions know what. I don't know about you guys, but this was not the first thing I was thinking, at least not from the town side. Thinking about what the mafia might know makes sense, but plytho is analyzing this from the view of a PR. Mafia would think about that aspect, trying to see what information their opponents have. I think town is less inclined to consider that.

This becomes even more important during his conversation with Sabrar about the Fruit Vendor and whether or not someone who received a piece of fruit should say so. This continues for a couple posts before plytho can understand the importance to town. He ultimately disagrees that it's worth it, which is fine, but it seems to me he's having trouble seeing the value from the townside. Odd, considering he's the only one who considered the townside in his first analysis.

plytho says this later in response to LaserGuy, but I agree (and said before) that plytho's absences and content felt off at this point.

First real content is plytho's reads post. Let's break it down.
- jimbob is read as "neutral to slightly scummy" for one small thing - calling freezeblade a lurker. I think the only way to read jimbob as scummy at this point is to not have tried very hard to get that read.
- Madge is read as "scummy" which again just doesn't fit. plytho brings up her tunneling Mark as scummy, but knows both Madge and bessie well enough to expect exactly what we're getting here. He points to her "defense of freezeblade" but I have no idea how you see anything but headbutting Sabrar in that post, or the one following. Her criticisms of his freezeblade read seem to be coming from the right place, she's not overly defensive about it, and she's still talking about a lot more. Basically, plytho's scummy read of Madge is about as uncharitable as you can get.
- Tunnels in on his Madge read while reading Mark. I agree that Mark is likely town. plytho's final comment about scum pressuring Mark bugs me a bit. He's either letting other reads bleed over into this one, or he's trying to put more nails in Madge's coffin.
- Sabrar is read with "a general town feel", but I don't see that in plytho's work. Maybe I'm being too harsh here. I had the impression that plytho didn't really read Sabrar, but he does state that "I always have trouble reading Sabrar D1", and seems to just be basing his read on the fact that Sabrar's reads mirror his own. That's probably fair enough.
- SDK read is essentially neutral ("Gut says slightly scummy"), but I don't get the impression he really tried to read me. The only comment he really make is that my "reads/prod post has some good stuff" and leaves it at that. Is the scummy read just because I didn't make my list in order?

This doesn't feel quite as damning as the first time I went through it. I really don't like his read on Madge and I think he's being very unforgiving in a few places (and ignoring other aspects to drill on particulars). He didn't try to read Sabrar or me... which I took to be scummy, but perhaps he's just resigned himself to not being able to? Not sure.

plytho outs Mark as probably-not-vanilla-town, which rubbed me the wrong way, though I can see now his motivation for doing so. I didn't get before that his read on me grew organically from that, but on reread that's fairly obvious. I didn't make the same catch and thought he was doing this for bad reasons, followed by jumping on me along with other people, but that's not really how it all went down (especially if plytho saw that catch as obvious).

Likewise, at the time I took plytho's iso of Mark and Madge to be useless busy work, but now that I'm reading his posts in more detail, moving his thought process along, it feels much more natural for plytho to be confirming his read on Madge (considering it's in opposition to most other players).

Spends most of the rest of his time grilling me, which is fine, but unforgiving. I have made mistakes, but plytho seems unwilling to even consider that an option. Maybe I'm biased, but the slips seem pretty weak to me even if I did have the scum motivation his pinning to me. PR fishing is about all he's got, and I doubt you could find even one example of me PR fishing in any of my past scum games. It's just not something I would attempt - high risk, low reward. Given that, it seems to me that he's tunneling in a bad way here now. In light of everything else, this along with the minor stuff in the beginning are not really enough to carry a scum read.

Guess I talked myself out of that one. Still suspicious of plytho for three minor things (setup spec, uncharitable reads, and tunneling), but I can see a townie mindset behind most of what he's doing now. Taken individually I didn't like it. Looking at the package helped me to make more sense out of what he's been trying to do.

Unvote

Next up: Vicarin.
by SDK
Wed May 30, 2018 3:29 pm UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Meta Mafia II: Day 5
Replies: 1012
Views: 74731

Re: Meta Mafia II: Day One

Well that's good news. I'm pretty sure that would have only been the second time I've ever been lynched on this site (the first when I was copped mafia). Must be losing my touch. By which I mean, my mistakes this game show that I am losing my touch, or at least my memory!

So! Let's see if we can catch scum instead. I'll do a handful of player analysis posts today. But first, some outstanding questions from last night...

Sabrar wrote:
SDK wrote:Now I'm even more confused. Are you saying I'm doing that this game?
You really don't understand?

Yes, really. I know you're voting me now and I truly have no idea why. I mean, sure, you're on the same stuff plytho is, but everything else you've brought up makes no sense to me. I even had a good laugh when I considered that you might be town suggesting that you really, secretly thought I was town and just looking for a fight for fun (or to protect me from the nightkill?). Apparently not. Care to explain?

Sabrar wrote:
SDK wrote:wam and freezeblade also don't really have much to analyze properly, and in any case, I'm starting to feel like they may be town.
What exactly has wam done since this post that made you change your mind?

Nothing. I didn't have very strong reasons for suspecting wam in the first place. Rereading his posts had me feeling a little off about that read, plus with Vicarin making his way up the list wam was looking less likely. Not that interested in pursuing wam at this point, at least.


plytho wrote:There's no mention of matrix 14 in the role pm.

Right, but I wrote the question before seeing that it was from his role PM.


wam's reads list feels pretty good. He's bang on about Madge. I'll get to plytho in a minute, wam.


moody7277 wrote:Then again, the SDK wagon was rolling along rather well for reasons that on first look are kind of serious and should be something I ought to delve into.

Yeah, you really should. Why didn't you?


jimbobmacdoodle wrote:@SDK - are you saying plytho might be scum for advising Mark to NOT answer the question? Or are you referring to the later comments you make against plytho?

No, no, the later comments. Reading plytho's big post thinking it was you was shaking my read. Thankfully you're still town.

By the way, I hopped on freezeblade to see what threetwoone (and others) would do with that. If it had somehow led to a lynch, that wouldn't have been the worst thing in the world, but I figured it could lead to some good info.


Mark's post is decent. Comes down on a few players with good reasons, though Mark, you skipped your read of Sabrar. Pretty sure Mark is town anyway.


mpolo is almost certainly town. Again, this is based more on style than anything else.


LaserGuy wrote:I also don't like that SDK hasn't really attempted to refute this case, particularly, and seems intent on pushing this as scum-motivated, which I don't buy at all.

Can you explain this whole sentence? What do you think I should be refuting that I haven't, and how have I been pushing the PM thing as scum-motivated?


Whew. That took longer than expected. You guys post a lot, but there's lots left to do! Back in a jiffy with plytho.

PS: Zombie replacements should be a last resort (especially if they were killed by the mafia), but if you've tried and failed to find anyone else, it's better than a modkill.
by SDK
Wed May 30, 2018 4:16 am UTC
Forum: Mafia
Topic: Meta Mafia II: Day 5
Replies: 1012
Views: 74731

Re: Meta Mafia II: Day One

I didn't (and don't) have a null read. I didn't (and don't) have anything to point to. Yeah, could have pointed that out, but I kinda liked it standing out in my list as it was.

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