Search found 445 matches

by Twistar
Sun Dec 04, 2016 4:42 pm UTC
Forum: Science
Topic: Is entanglement that surprising?
Replies: 27
Views: 4958

Re: Is entanglement that surprising?

What is important is that, for entangled particles, the strength of this correlation is STRONGER than would be classically allowed. This is a subtle point, and in the end I think a little frustrating because it seems like it just boils down to a quantitative difference in how the particles behave r...
by Twistar
Thu Sep 22, 2016 11:24 pm UTC
Forum: Science
Topic: Relativistically pancaked Earth
Replies: 15
Views: 2277

Re: Relativistically pancaked Earth

This video shows that due to general relativistic aberrations (include optical time of flight delays) that a sphere will still appear spherical as you fly by, or something like that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQnHTKZBTI4 I didn't really take time to understand what was going on so sorry if I'...
by Twistar
Thu Sep 22, 2016 7:33 pm UTC
Forum: Science
Topic: Relativistically pancaked Earth
Replies: 15
Views: 2277

Re: Relativistically pancaked Earth

This video shows that due to general relativistic aberrations (include optical time of flight delays) that a sphere will still appear spherical as you fly by, or something like that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQnHTKZBTI4 I didn't really take time to understand what was going on so sorry if I'm...
by Twistar
Sun Sep 18, 2016 5:14 am UTC
Forum: Science
Topic: Is entanglement that surprising?
Replies: 27
Views: 4958

Re: Is entanglement that surprising?

Yeah so you've hit on a key point about entanglement. Most descriptions of entanglement go something like: We put two electrons in a box and entangle their spins. Then separate the spins and spread them far apart. Now, say we're going to look at electron A. Since it is not in a well-defined spin sta...
by Twistar
Wed Aug 24, 2016 3:11 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?
Replies: 338
Views: 50892

Re: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?

I'm out. Treatid, take an actual math class. I suggest "real analysis".

Tons of online courses in math, science and other fields
by Twistar
Mon Aug 22, 2016 4:20 pm UTC
Forum: Science
Topic: Quantum Mechanics Equations and Measurement
Replies: 7
Views: 2669

Re: Quantum Mechanics Equations and Measurement

It would be a very short and boring thread, because it was simply something very straight-forward and non-controversial: Mathematically, QM has two types of equations. One type is the equations of motion, and the other type tells us what happens when we make a measurement. Measurement is taught ver...
by Twistar
Mon Aug 22, 2016 3:37 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?
Replies: 338
Views: 50892

Re: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?

Man things have really gotten out of control here. Let's try to get back onto the original topic of the fitness of formal logic as a foundation for mathematics. Here's what happened as I see it (and using my definitions of terms). It appeared to me that Treatid thought math or mathematicians claim t...
by Twistar
Sat Aug 20, 2016 9:27 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?
Replies: 338
Views: 50892

Re: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?

Well if the proof doesn't exist then the question falls in the 1st category, no? No. Godel proved conclusively that there are true statements consistent with the axioms which can never be proven. Yeah ok, I suspected it might have been something like that. I guess I need to brush up on the incomple...
by Twistar
Sat Aug 20, 2016 8:51 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?
Replies: 338
Views: 50892

Re: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?

I'm talking about specific well-defined real numbers, so your repeated references to CH don't apply. I'm not sure how you can boldly proclaim that proofs must exist which we're just not creative enough to find, when one proof we have managed to find is that almost all real numbers are uncomputable....
by Twistar
Sat Aug 20, 2016 8:09 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?
Replies: 338
Views: 50892

Re: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?

No, I never said anything about absolute or universal in the post about such numbers, you just missed it. Questions like, "Is pi normal?" surely have a factual answer, but it's conceivable that we will never know (i.e. prove) the answer to that question. Ah I see. Ok. Well here's how I vi...
by Twistar
Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:29 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?
Replies: 338
Views: 50892

Re: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?

There are mathematical truths which are inaccessible to human knowledge, as has already been explained. Is that somehow more okay if we don't call such truths "absolute"? I guess I'm being a bit sluggish on the uptake here but could you re-explain or point out where someone explained that...
by Twistar
Sat Aug 20, 2016 6:38 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?
Replies: 338
Views: 50892

Re: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?

I've given definitions for absolute truth = universal truth = something about which you have complete epistemic certainty. We've all agreed that under this definition mathematics does not access absolute truth since there is no way for humans to access absolute truth (under this definition). As I'v...
by Twistar
Sat Aug 20, 2016 5:02 am UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?
Replies: 338
Views: 50892

Re: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?

Clearly everyone is using their own definition of 'universal' and drawing their own distinctions in their own head with the end result being us all just talking past each other. I think we should just drop the terms altogether, since, as I've said before: 1) they don't add anything to the discussion...
by Twistar
Fri Aug 19, 2016 7:17 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?
Replies: 338
Views: 50892

Re: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?

Why do you and Cleverbeans both keep talking about the current state of physics to make claims about the limits of mathematics? Our not knowing everything about dark matter, dark energy, or quantum gravity has nothing to do with limits inherent to mathematics, and everything to do with our lack of ...
by Twistar
Fri Aug 19, 2016 4:19 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?
Replies: 338
Views: 50892

Re: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?

The point I want to make here is that I agree. Math is great, fantastic, wonderful beautiful, has helped raise the standard of living for billions of people around the world etc. However, I just think that claiming anything "absolute" or "universal" about it is just claiming too ...
by Twistar
Wed Aug 17, 2016 5:45 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?
Replies: 338
Views: 50892

Re: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?

If you discard the first Graham's Number digits of Pi, then look at the next digit, then it's unknown, and possibly even unknowable, whether that digit is 7 or not, but most people would be happy to regard the proposition that it is 7 as being either true or false, in a fairly absolute sense - gene...
by Twistar
Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:46 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?
Replies: 338
Views: 50892

Re: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?

I guess the moral of this sub discussion we've had is that you're using a different definition for absolute truth than I am and I suspect Treatid is. I'm pretty sure that if we define "absolute truth" as "complete epistemic certainty" you would agree that math does not access &q...
by Twistar
Wed Aug 17, 2016 4:56 am UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?
Replies: 338
Views: 50892

Re: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?

Ok, Platonism can be more nuanced than I give it credit for. Apologies. I still think it's confusing and misleading and don't like it. Well, I think we all agree that meeting Treatid's standard of "absolute truth" is impossible to achieve. He's setting the bar about as high as you do, whic...
by Twistar
Tue Aug 16, 2016 2:58 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?
Replies: 338
Views: 50892

Re: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?

I recall having a similar crisis of confidence as I began to understand exactly how limited mathematical models are in practice. I've come to the following conclusions: 1) Mathematical knowledge is the most certain and enduring form of knowledge we have. 2) Mathematics only vaguely resembles realit...
by Twistar
Tue Aug 16, 2016 5:55 am UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?
Replies: 338
Views: 50892

Re: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?

Before responding to specifics I'll just say that I think we agree on more things that it is sounding like at the moment. I'm just taking a hard stance against the notion that mathematics can access "absolute truths" because I think holding on to such a notion is a great cause for confusio...
by Twistar
Mon Aug 15, 2016 9:23 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?
Replies: 338
Views: 50892

Re: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?

Disagree. You're asking a philosophical question that hinges on the distinction, if there is any, between truth and knowledge. For all the reasons we've explored here, human confidence in mathematical truth can never be absolute. At some point you get back to What the Tortoise Said to Achilles and ...
by Twistar
Mon Aug 15, 2016 8:46 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?
Replies: 338
Views: 50892

Re: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?

1. Ok, this is your first time citing an example of someone thinking "elements of mathematics are fundamentally true in some sense". No one in this thread thinks that. Modern mathematics founded in the axioms of set theory was invented, not discovered. The rules of set theory were invente...
by Twistar
Sun Aug 14, 2016 11:51 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?
Replies: 338
Views: 50892

Re: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?

@Twistar I note your anger - but I'm not quite sure what is prompting it. Your summary of what I'm trying to do seems pretty good to me. Yes - I face exactly the same limitations as axiomatic mathematics currently faces with regard to creating an unequivocally, fully specified, no-possible-room-for...
by Twistar
Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:40 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?
Replies: 338
Views: 50892

Re: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?

Relationships The word 'relationship' here is a label. It really is impossible to define 'relationship' in an absolute sense. But we do have a sense of what 'relationships' are in general and that sense is useful. A good starting place is to think of a relationship as the most generic thing possibl...
by Twistar
Thu Jul 28, 2016 8:38 am UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?
Replies: 338
Views: 50892

Re: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?

{definition of 'know' here is problematic. While I don't think we can have absolute knowledge in a sense that I think axiomatic mathematics implies ; I do think that we can create a complete description of the universe without needing to make any assumptions. At the same time, axiomatic mathematics...
by Twistar
Wed Jul 27, 2016 6:10 am UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?
Replies: 338
Views: 50892

Re: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?

So, before we take another step... I have stated some axioms as the basis for further discussion (this post and last post). Do you understand the definitions and accept that they are axioms? Do you have some other reason for rejecting these axioms? I reject your definitions and axioms. They are too...
by Twistar
Thu Jul 14, 2016 5:26 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?
Replies: 338
Views: 50892

Re: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?

Cool. I agree with arbiteroftruth on your response to the worksheet question 4/4. Really glad to see we're on the same page regarding those exercises now. That is miles beyond where we were at the start of this thread. Now, as others pointed out, you are using some terminology in a non-standard way ...
by Twistar
Mon Jun 27, 2016 9:10 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Simple Question (basic statistics)
Replies: 2
Views: 2123

Re: Simple Question (basic statistics)

Absolute Deviation

People would probably know what you mean if you said "maximum absolute deviation" or "maximum deviation" or something.
by Twistar
Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:44 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?
Replies: 338
Views: 50892

Re: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?

My deepest thanks to everyone in this thread and previous ones. Proof: The premises for this proof are the axioms/rules of propositional logic. That is, we assume that all the rules of propositional logic are true. The proof is intended to show that the axioms/rules of propositional logic are incon...
by Twistar
Sun Jun 05, 2016 1:17 am UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?
Replies: 338
Views: 50892

Re: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?

Sure if you write him a half page post he'll write you one back. Unfortunately he will just skip over all of the salient points and continue on saying exactly whatever he was saying in his previous post. Very true. Yet for some odd reason, you continue to try... only to get frustrated again and aga...
by Twistar
Sun Jun 05, 2016 12:39 am UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?
Replies: 338
Views: 50892

Re: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?

Given those posts and the subsequent ones: I will attempt to answer one of the questions at the end of this post - I believe question 4 was specifically mentioned and hasn't been covered by anyone else yet. I'll devote the last section of each of my posts to either answering a new question (please ...
by Twistar
Thu Jun 02, 2016 6:22 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?
Replies: 338
Views: 50892

Re: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?

That's why I've responded to Treatid in plain English, and why I expect him to do the same. This shouldn't be a problem, if he actually listens to what I'm saying and is actually interested in having a conversation. And if he doesn't... well, in that case, no amount of formal logic will save this t...
by Twistar
Thu Jun 02, 2016 4:20 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?
Replies: 338
Views: 50892

Re: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?

The request that Treatid do some simple worksheet-style formalism, or at least explain the unwillingness to do so, is a reasonable one, especially since we've all seen how frequently relying on vague intuitions about natural language has led these discussions astray. I agree that demanding Treatid ...
by Twistar
Thu Jun 02, 2016 4:02 am UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?
Replies: 338
Views: 50892

Re: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?

Why the aversion to the worksheet, Treatid? Everyone in the thread has been asking you to work on it so that we can understand you better. Here's even better questions: 1) Why do YOU think it is so important to all of us in the thread that you can solve the problems on the worksheet? 2) Why do you t...
by Twistar
Tue May 31, 2016 2:27 am UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?
Replies: 338
Views: 50892

Re: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?

How about in a show of good faith everyone in the thread answers one of the worksheet problems? Just to prove that it's a common language we can all use. I've already done two so I won't do another.
by Twistar
Mon May 30, 2016 4:42 am UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?
Replies: 338
Views: 50892

Re: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?

However, you are coming across as if you have just discovered formal logic and all must now bow down before your great font of wisdom. No. Rather, it is that I know what formal logic is and I know that what you are doing is not formal logic. So no, I'm not demanding that you bow down. I'm just dema...
by Twistar
Thu May 26, 2016 4:11 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?
Replies: 338
Views: 50892

Re: Misunderstanding basic math concepts, help please?

Twistar: If you cannot point to a specific fault in my deductions then that means there is no fault in my deductions (probably). It doesn't mean that I'm failing at logic or using some weird, Treatid only, logic. My guess is that you are currently in academia and see tests and exams as the ground s...
by Twistar
Tue May 24, 2016 11:37 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Is math real?
Replies: 105
Views: 13681

Re: Is math real?

I would argue that math's effectiveness in the natural sciences is reasonable not because it's intrinsic to us, but because mathematics is the study of consistent systems and science works from the assumption that the universe is consistent. Particular branches of mathematics are historically conti...
by Twistar
Tue May 24, 2016 4:29 pm UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Is math real?
Replies: 105
Views: 13681

Re: Is math real?

Now you're discussing whether math is discovered or invented which is a discussion that has been hashed many times. I'm a pretty staunch believer that math is a pattern of thought which was invented. It is so great and powerful because it is a pattern of thought which is flexible, repeatable and eas...
by Twistar
Tue May 24, 2016 12:25 am UTC
Forum: Mathematics
Topic: Is math real?
Replies: 105
Views: 13681

Re: Is math real?

I'm sorta jumping into this thread here so sorry about that. But anyways, I just want to say it doesn't seem like you're all really discussing whether math is real. Rather, you're discussing what you mean by real. The thread was created with the intent to compare mathematics to a definition of real,...

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