Search found 135 matches

by andrewclunn
Fri Sep 11, 2009 6:09 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Libertarianism, socialism, and differing views of reality
Replies: 212
Views: 25192

Re: Libertarianism, socialism, and differing views of reality

... If the poor would just stop having more and more kids ... large birth rate among the ignorant and impoverished immigrants... I'm leaving up the juicy parts hoping that some day you might be ashamed of yourself. This line of discussion does not need to be continued in SB, nor anywhere else on th...
by andrewclunn
Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:08 am UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Libertarianism, socialism, and differing views of reality
Replies: 212
Views: 25192

Re: Libertarianism, socialism, and differing views of reality

... If the poor would just stop having more and more kids ... large birth rate among the ignorant and impoverished immigrants... I'm leaving up the juicy parts hoping that some day you might be ashamed of yourself. This line of discussion does not need to be continued in SB, nor anywhere else on the...
by andrewclunn
Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:41 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Libertarianism, socialism, and differing views of reality
Replies: 212
Views: 25192

Re: Libertarianism, socialism, and differing views of reality

Untested? A society built on the protection of individual liberties including the protection of property? The United States is the closest any nation has ever come to the libertarian ideal. And I would gladly settle for a strict adherence to its Constitution. We shouldn't. ... So says reality. If yo...
by andrewclunn
Thu Sep 10, 2009 1:00 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Libertarianism, socialism, and differing views of reality
Replies: 212
Views: 25192

Re: Libertarianism, socialism, and differing views of reality

We shouldn't. Guess what, beggars in developed nations have it better than beggars in third world countries. Is that because of anything they did? Nope. It's because there's more wealth there. How is wealth created? Even hardcore Marxists admit that first you need a period of capitalism to generate ...
by andrewclunn
Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:47 am UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Libertarianism, socialism, and differing views of reality
Replies: 212
Views: 25192

Re: Libertarianism, socialism, and differing views of reality

Personally, I think the ideal is a system where everyone is given an equal chance in childhood(government should provide child health care and such); but everyone should be allowed to screw over their own life. If someone doesn't want to work when they are older, power to them, but they better lear...
by andrewclunn
Wed Sep 09, 2009 2:23 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Libertarianism, socialism, and differing views of reality
Replies: 212
Views: 25192

Re: Libertarianism, socialism, and differing views of reality

This thread has inspired me to do several posts regarding specifically why Socialism doesn't work. The slogan used to be "Labour doesn't work" which had the added benefit of sounding funny. About your post, I don't really see the point of focussing on utalitarianism. If you want to includ...
by andrewclunn
Tue Sep 08, 2009 2:41 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Libertarianism, socialism, and differing views of reality
Replies: 212
Views: 25192

Re: Libertarianism, socialism, and differing views of reality

So if we find some round-about way to label Obama right-wing that makes socialism good and libertarianism bad? I think the concept of a false dichotomy is necessary here. Who cares about arbitrary taxonomies that don't relate to the topic of this thread? As an aside (And if this violates rules moder...
by andrewclunn
Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:55 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Libertarianism, socialism, and differing views of reality
Replies: 212
Views: 25192

Re: Libertarianism, socialism, and differing views of reality

Wow, the topic has really come back to life. I plan on responding to a few comments from a page back in a bit, but just a quick question. To the socialists here, how many of you would, if I were to PROVE that free markets are better at achieving the desired goal of maximizing happiness, admit that y...
by andrewclunn
Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:53 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Libertarianism, socialism, and differing views of reality
Replies: 212
Views: 25192

Re: Libertarianism, socialism, and differing views of reality

Ah good. I'm gald I'm dealing with someone who knows the difference between classical liberalism and the labor movement. It's very frustrating in the United States, as both political parties claim (officially) to be classical liberals while the Republicans are clearly a Christian political party and...
by andrewclunn
Tue Sep 01, 2009 4:54 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Libertarianism, socialism, and differing views of reality
Replies: 212
Views: 25192

Re: Libertarianism, socialism, and differing views of reality

I recommend you read the book 'Infidel' by Ayaan Hirsi Ali. I also recommend reading "The Road to Serfdom" by Friedrich A. Hayek. If you're not a fan of Rand, then perhaps some John Locke would be better, but the conclusions are the same. I don't think you're being close minded. I just thi...
by andrewclunn
Tue Sep 01, 2009 3:37 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Libertarianism, socialism, and differing views of reality
Replies: 212
Views: 25192

Re: Libertarianism, socialism, and differing views of reality

On the other hand, there is going to be some, perhaps vague, ethical basis for the actions and powers of the government, unless you argue that 'might makes right' is all that matters (which I suppose you are not). What you would call absense of socialist or religious ethics in politics will look a ...
by andrewclunn
Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:57 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Libertarianism, socialism, and differing views of reality
Replies: 212
Views: 25192

Re: Libertarianism, socialism, and differing views of reality

Theocratic socialism is selling the principles of socialism not on the basis of them working, but on the basis of it being a moral imperative. Essentially saying that if you don't support state controlled wealth redistribution for the sake of the poor, then you're a bad person. If that isn't clear ...
by andrewclunn
Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:40 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Libertarianism, socialism, and differing views of reality
Replies: 212
Views: 25192

Re: Libertarianism, socialism, and differing views of reality

Theocratic socialism is selling the principles of socialism not on the basis of them working, but on the basis of it being a moral imperative. Essentially saying that if you don't support state controlled wealth redistribution for the sake of the poor, then you're a bad person. If that isn't clear e...
by andrewclunn
Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:20 pm UTC
Forum: Individual XKCD Comic Threads
Topic: 0610: "Sheeple"
Replies: 511
Views: 94410

Re: "Sheeple" Discussion

YYZ!!! Play YYZ!
by andrewclunn
Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:05 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Libertarianism, socialism, and differing views of reality
Replies: 212
Views: 25192

Re: Libertarianism, socialism, and differing views of reality

So yes, I have come to my senses. I have realized that I was being trained to be a willful servant of those who are too lazy or incompetent to work for themselves. I now know who deserves to benefit from my hard work and dedication. I do. So yes, I am now what people call 'selfish' because you can ...
by andrewclunn
Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:34 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Libertarianism, socialism, and differing views of reality
Replies: 212
Views: 25192

Re: Libertarianism, socialism, and differing views of reality

And I would state that if they are unable or unwilling to strive for more, to save money, to hold off having children, to do well in the public education that wealthier tax payers provide, then they deserve their fate. I am happy that people like you are around, or Randians might become popular one...
by andrewclunn
Mon Aug 31, 2009 8:05 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Libertarianism, socialism, and differing views of reality
Replies: 212
Views: 25192

Re: Libertarianism, socialism, and differing views of reality

There will be winners and losers in any system. The difference is that in the "free Market" system, the winners are the ones who actually produce something. The "poor serfs" in today's society are the uneducated manual laborers. And I would state that if they are unable or unwill...
by andrewclunn
Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:22 pm UTC
Forum: Individual XKCD Comic Threads
Topic: 0603: "Idiocracy"
Replies: 573
Views: 122530

Re: "Idiocracy" Discussion

If people would follow deductive logic instead of inductive logic, the world would be a better place. But since MOST of the people on newspaper comment sections are idiots that always focus the group not the individual in different newsevents, I must conclude that idiocracy is true and that the gre...
by andrewclunn
Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:09 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: The basis of ethics and morality
Replies: 148
Views: 17084

Re: The basis of ethics and morality

I think consequence based arguments may be unavoidable. Even "we should follow self-analytic moralities because they're superior" sounds quite utilitarian at heart. Oh, it's not that I'm opposed to consequence driven argument. But if evidence shows us that human beings operate better from...
by andrewclunn
Tue Aug 18, 2009 4:55 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: The basis of ethics and morality
Replies: 148
Views: 17084

Re: The basis of ethics and morality

The difference in the moral system I'm advocating is not that it is focused on the 'follower' as opposed to changing the outside world. Many belief systems are like that. I am stating that those systems that derive morality from ethics, rather than the other way around (the ends justify the means ra...
by andrewclunn
Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:49 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: The basis of ethics and morality
Replies: 148
Views: 17084

Re: The basis of ethics and morality

Sure it can, because I have control (well at least I claim to have control) over my own actions, but not the actions of the others. Therefore, I may select my actions based upon a desired outcome outside of myself, but the basis of morality would do better to be introspective by nature.
by andrewclunn
Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:39 am UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: The basis of ethics and morality
Replies: 148
Views: 17084

Re: The basis of ethics and morality

Yes but consider the level of cooperation needed for internet for example. You need some ideas that go beyond personal motivation to get anything like complex todays society. Things to teach your children for example ;) I don't think that's true. The homeschooling material market is booming and pri...
by andrewclunn
Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:00 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Libertarianism, socialism, and differing views of reality
Replies: 212
Views: 25192

Re: Libertarianism, socialism, and differing views of reality

There is a fundamental difference between "do this thing or I will make sure bad things happen to you" and "I'm not going to help you, even though I know bad things will happen to you if I don't". The first is compulsion - the second is just callousness. Businesses can be source...
by andrewclunn
Sun Aug 16, 2009 8:08 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Libertarianism, socialism, and differing views of reality
Replies: 212
Views: 25192

Re: Libertarianism, socialism, and differing views of reality

So if I'm understanding you correctly, then you're saying: http://www.entertonement.com/clips/dhnfkydngq--I-don%E2%80%99t'-have-to-save-youBatman-Christian-Bale-Batman-Begins- (In case you can't hear audio, it's a clip from Batman Begins saying "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you.&q...
by andrewclunn
Sun Aug 16, 2009 7:47 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: The basis of ethics and morality
Replies: 148
Views: 17084

Re: The basis of ethics and morality

Yes, but everything you just listed outside of family is gotten through purchases and exchange rather than community. And nobody gets to choose who their family is.
by andrewclunn
Sun Aug 16, 2009 5:02 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: The basis of ethics and morality
Replies: 148
Views: 17084

Re: The basis of ethics and morality

Well that is a very basic level you chose to stick with, not in the least because you leave out the fact that we are codependant with other people, any form of "happiness" involves other people as context. "Enlightened", as in enlightened individualism, does not carry enough wei...
by andrewclunn
Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:01 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: Libertarianism, socialism, and differing views of reality
Replies: 212
Views: 25192

Re: Libertarianism, socialism, and differing views of reality

i know I'm coming in late, but I've read the posts and hopefully I'll be able to add something meaningful. Four things: 1) I think the problem here is that we're arguing between Libertarianism and Socialism, which are essentially political / economic positions. What we should be arguing about is bet...
by andrewclunn
Fri Aug 14, 2009 2:12 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: The basis of ethics and morality
Replies: 148
Views: 17084

Re: The basis of ethics and morality

I basically stated in my previous post that " all commonly used and valid sets of ethics have notions of cooperation and empathy as their most basic/abstract presuppositions " might be a true statement and that i consider it worthwhile to explore the "trueness" of that statement...
by andrewclunn
Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:31 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: The basis of ethics and morality
Replies: 148
Views: 17084

Re: The basis of ethics and morality

First of all, why do we even need the notion of absolute truth in the first place? It's not that we need absolute truth, it's that there is such a thing as truth (more of the surface area of the earth is covered by water than land, true statement.) And because there is such a thing as truth, it has...
by andrewclunn
Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:29 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: The basis of ethics and morality
Replies: 148
Views: 17084

Re: The basis of ethics and morality

Well, then we're probably not going to agree on much. I think morality should be based on personal responsibility, not personal freedom. However I do like the law of the land to be based on personal freedom. That not really a fair statement. Personal freedom implies personal responsibility. (Well t...
by andrewclunn
Mon Aug 10, 2009 2:20 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: The basis of ethics and morality
Replies: 148
Views: 17084

Re: The basis of ethics and morality

Which is why I've chosen a morality built around the notion of personal identity and personal freedom. You can choose any morality you want, but it better not require my acceptance because then it doesn't allow for others to chose their own morality. If the only thing that we can agree on is that mo...
by andrewclunn
Fri Aug 07, 2009 7:36 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: The basis of ethics and morality
Replies: 148
Views: 17084

Re: The basis of ethics and morality

Rather than build morality around how you want the world to be, it's much better to build it around the kind of person you want to be. You can't always change the world and you might put yourself in one of those tricky "the ends justify the means" situations with that kind of attitude. If ...
by andrewclunn
Sun Aug 02, 2009 10:53 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: The basis of ethics and morality
Replies: 148
Views: 17084

Re: The basis of ethics and morality

Yes, my axioms often conflict with each other, and that makes morality interesting to me. See, I rejected classical liberalism and multicultural morality specifically because it led to so many contradictions. I'm fine with ambiguity of facts, after all we don't know everything yet, but ambiguous in...
by andrewclunn
Sun Aug 02, 2009 2:50 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: The basis of ethics and morality
Replies: 148
Views: 17084

Re: The basis of ethics and morality

Diversity is good? The fact that that is a moral axiom to someone makes me a little sad to be honest. "Diversity" is a vague blatantly multi-cultural term used by the political left to justify other world views that really have no other justification. I have found that in ALL cases 'freedo...
by andrewclunn
Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:46 pm UTC
Forum: Individual XKCD Comic Threads
Topic: 0617: "Understocked"
Replies: 115
Views: 22014

Re: "Understocked" Discussion

for people who spend all day (and night) on the internet, read a little news... I had no idea what this was about. Some guy getting into a misunderstanding with the police and going to the White House to drink beer doesn't sound much like news (especially outside the US)... sounds more like Hollywo...
by andrewclunn
Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:13 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: The basis of ethics and morality
Replies: 148
Views: 17084

Re: The basis of ethics and morality

Religion aside, I think that any two cultures could be made to coexist with little or no conflicts within a few generations. There are serious ethical concerns. Such as when your neighbors beliefs interfere with your own safety. Then there are basic concerns. When you simply don't approve of your n...
by andrewclunn
Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:03 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: The basis of ethics and morality
Replies: 148
Views: 17084

Re: The basis of ethics and morality

It seems that we have some moral subjectivists, some who claim morality stems from a divine source, and some who claim that there is objective morality outside requiring a deistic source. I have a question for the subjectivists. When two cultures meet, each with ethical codes that have served their ...
by andrewclunn
Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:12 am UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: The basis of ethics and morality
Replies: 148
Views: 17084

Re: The basis of ethics and morality

Well, as a non-deistic non-moral relativist myself, I do hold that there are certain characteristics that are so universally advantageous to individuals, that they would be considered moral truths. I would also say that there are some agreed upon standards for all societies that are so universal tha...
by andrewclunn
Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:31 am UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: The basis of ethics and morality
Replies: 148
Views: 17084

Re: The basis of ethics and morality

I do disagree that the putative existence of a deity provides a basis for morality. If gods decide morality, is what they deem moral good because they deem it so, or do they deem it so because it is good? If the first, then how is that any different from "Might makes right?" You almost wa...
by andrewclunn
Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:55 pm UTC
Forum: Serious Business
Topic: The basis of ethics and morality
Replies: 148
Views: 17084

Re: The basis of ethics and morality

Now then, Variance seems to be suggesting that if God exists, we then have a basis for morality. I do not disagree with that statement, but as I am dubious about the existence of God(s), so I am postulating that one's morality can not be separated from one's independently selected values and/or goal...

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