human vs Robot

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human vs Robot

Postby xe3r » Sat Jul 31, 2010 9:13 pm UTC

This question always bugged me,and they always gave me stupid illogical answers:
What makes a human different than a self-aware robot with the ability to learn and replicate itself?

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Re: human vs Robot

Postby ++$_ » Sat Jul 31, 2010 9:54 pm UTC

xe3r wrote:This question always bugged me,and they always gave me stupid illogical answers:
What makes a human different than a self-aware robot with the ability to learn and replicate itself?
It sounds like you're looking for a specific kind of answer.

Obviously there are many differences, depending on how you build the robot:

1. Humans are squishy
2. Humans have fingernails
3. Humans wear shoes
4. Humans came into existence through evolution rather than through design and creation
5. Humans are called "humans" whereas robots are called "robots"

and so on.

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Re: human vs Robot

Postby Thesh » Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:01 pm UTC

xe3r wrote:This question always bugged me,and they always gave me stupid illogical answers:
What makes a human different than a self-aware robot with the ability to learn and replicate itself?


That's kind of like asking "What makes a human different than a bird"

The answer is: a lot of things.

The ability to learn and replicate covers a broad area. The most likely thing a robot will do to replicate is build the parts to make a copy of itself, unless the robot is designed to use artificial genetics. Unless the robot has programming that simulates relevant human brain functions perfectly, the way that it learns and the capacity for it to learn is going to be completely different as well. The first learning and self-replicating robots will be very primitive, limited, and have almost nothing in common with humans.
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Re: human vs Robot

Postby xe3r » Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:50 pm UTC

I mean the abstract pattern and not the details obviously.. I am just thinking,is it possible for us to be a highly sophisticated robot..?

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Re: human vs Robot

Postby ++$_ » Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:30 pm UTC

We are highly sophisticated machines. The question is whether you consider any machine to be a robot.

To me, a "robot" means something containing a silicon chip, so the answer would be "no." But there's not really any doubt that we're machines.

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Re: human vs Robot

Postby xe3r » Sun Aug 01, 2010 12:23 pm UTC

++$_ wrote: But there's not really any doubt that we're machines.


I totally agree with you,but it seems that to a decent number of people there is a doubt and I cannot see why..

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Re: human vs Robot

Postby Izawwlgood » Sun Aug 01, 2010 12:28 pm UTC

xe3r wrote:
++$_ wrote: But there's not really any doubt that we're machines.


I totally agree with you,but it seems that to a decent number of people there is a doubt and I cannot see why..

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Re: human vs Robot

Postby userxp » Sun Aug 01, 2010 4:33 pm UTC

Yes, people say illogical things. Humans are not rational by nature, we can be rational if we need to, but most of the time we act intuitively.

Intuitively, we do not see ourselves as machines. The vast majority of people refuse to accept that a robot can think or reproduce because "robots are not alive and do not have souls". One of the causes of that is that we still don't have a clear and accurate answer to the question "How does the brain work?".

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Re: human vs Robot

Postby Axidos » Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:43 pm UTC

Posting for relevance: Artificial Flight and Other Myths (a reasoned examination of A.F. by top birds)

There really isn't any difference. Saying humans and a robot which perfectly replicates every aspect of a human are different is probably quite similar to the No True Scotsman fallacy, if not a perfect example of it.

I think human beings have gotten used to a sense of collective individuality, being the only intelligent life forms of our nature in the known universe. Seeing a robot behaving just like you might infringe upon that sense of individuality, like how you feel when you see someone else wearing the same shirt or outfit as you.

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Re: human vs Robot

Postby xe3r » Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:33 pm UTC

userxp wrote:Yes, people say illogical things. Humans are not rational by nature, we can be rational if we need to, but most of the time we act intuitively.


This is not actually a difference.. One will say illogical things due to the lack of enough "processing power".. The intuition itself I believe is caused by the fact that sometimes we us humans cannot understand the cause of our actions although a part of our brain does subconsciously,or sometimes we do not know how to act and we take a guess and we try to stick with it whether it is correct or not..

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Re: human vs Robot

Postby styrofoam » Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:56 am UTC

@OP: Depends on how you define "robot." If intelligent, reproducing machines are all robots, then humans are robots. If robots must be designed, or must containing a silicon chip, or must be man-made, then...
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Re: human vs Robot

Postby xe3r » Tue Aug 03, 2010 3:41 pm UTC

styrofoam wrote:@OP: Depends on how you define "robot." If intelligent, reproducing machines are all robots, then humans are robots. If robots must be designed, or must containing a silicon chip, or must be man-made, then...


I am referring to the idea in which the robots are built upon.. The basic question is why should consider a sophisticated robot lifeless and us alive..

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Re: human vs Robot

Postby Josephine » Tue Aug 03, 2010 6:26 pm UTC

xe3r wrote:
styrofoam wrote:@OP: Depends on how you define "robot." If intelligent, reproducing machines are all robots, then humans are robots. If robots must be designed, or must containing a silicon chip, or must be man-made, then...


I am referring to the idea in which the robots are built upon.. The basic question is why should consider a sophisticated robot lifeless and us alive..

There's no reason to. I think our definition of life is way too narrow.
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Re: human vs Robot

Postby styrofoam » Tue Aug 03, 2010 11:05 pm UTC

xe3r wrote:The basic question is why should consider a sophisticated robot lifeless and us alive..

How do you define life? If you mean the scientific one, then it's perfectly possible to build a living robot (most people would call it "synthetic life", not a "robot" at that point, because robots aren't alive).
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Re: human vs Robot

Postby xe3r » Wed Aug 04, 2010 12:14 am UTC

styrofoam wrote:How do you define life? If you mean the scientific one, then it's perfectly possible to build a living robot (most people would call it "synthetic life", not a "robot" at that point, because robots aren't alive).


Personally I don't see any difference.. I am just annoyed from those who see and do not have a rational explanation.. :P

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Re: human vs Robot

Postby styrofoam » Wed Aug 04, 2010 2:08 am UTC

xe3r wrote:Personally I don't see any difference.. I am just annoyed from those who see and do not have a rational explanation.. :P

Wikipedia wrote:
  • Homeostasis
  • Organization
  • Metabolism
  • Growth
  • Adaptation
  • Response to stimuli
  • Reproduction

If you have a robot that fulfills all of these, you've got one that lives...
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Re: human vs Robot

Postby Josephine » Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:08 am UTC

homeostasis, organization, response to stimuli and metabolism are easy. growth falls into place if there's reproduction, and I'm not sure adaptation is necessary.
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Re: human vs Robot

Postby xe3r » Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:41 am UTC

styrofoam wrote:
Wikipedia wrote:
  • Homeostasis
  • Organization
  • Metabolism
  • Growth
  • Adaptation
  • Response to stimuli
  • Reproduction

If you have a robot that fulfills all of these, you've got one that lives...

I cannot see which of those elements cannot be applied to a robot..

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Re: human vs Robot

Postby Axidos » Wed Aug 04, 2010 12:59 pm UTC

xe3r wrote:I cannot see which of those elements cannot be applied to a robot..

I don't think he was trying to say there was one.

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Re: human vs Robot

Postby xe3r » Wed Aug 04, 2010 3:48 pm UTC

Axidos wrote:
xe3r wrote:I cannot see which of those elements cannot be applied to a robot..

I don't think he was trying to say there was one.


I know,I just added it to my conclusion.. :P

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Re: human vs Robot

Postby Josephine » Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:43 pm UTC

Hmm. Does reproduction have to be von-neumann style self reproduction? or do human factories count? For that matter, do human engineers count as adaptation? Could it be considered a symbiosis of sorts?
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Re: human vs Robot

Postby xe3r » Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:33 pm UTC

nbonaparte wrote:Hmm. Does reproduction have to be von-neumann style self reproduction?


I'll say yes,thus they could be autonomous.. I don't know if it must be that way,but it seems more logical..

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Re: human vs Robot

Postby styrofoam » Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:05 am UTC

nbonaparte wrote:Hmm. Does reproduction have to be von-neumann style self reproduction?

The species has to be able to make more of itself. Doesn't mean that a factory doesn't count, just that the factory has to be entirely run by robots.
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Re: human vs Robot

Postby tckthomas » Thu Aug 05, 2010 2:24 am UTC

I think robots are alive! Especially when it is purely mechanical. Someone needs to invent more of those magical machines

BTW, first post :P

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Re: human vs Robot

Postby Axidos » Thu Aug 05, 2010 2:59 am UTC

tckthomas wrote:I think robots are alive! Especially when it is purely mechanical. Someone needs to invent more of those magical machines

BTW, first post :P

Welcome! Anyway, yes, you could say anything that does.. stuff.. is alive in some sense of the word, but as of yet we don't have anything man-made that satisfies the qualities life must possess. Well, except for stuff we've genetically engineered into something new.

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Re: human vs Robot

Postby xe3r » Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:40 am UTC

tckthomas wrote:magical machines


I hate the m world.. :P There is nothing magical about them.. On contrary,they are made from pure logic..

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Re: human vs Robot

Postby TheAlmightyEgg » Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:07 pm UTC

I can't for the life of me remember who I'm (mis)quoting, but isn't the general question of whether a robot can think rather akin to asking whether a submarine can swim? What we do is simply a perculiarly biological version of what we are making machines more and more able to do. It may never be that machines appear to 'think' in the same way as we do, but it would be ridiculous to assume from superficial differences that machines are incapable of thought (just to qualify, whilst I consider the question of thought to be by definition too ill defined and filled with human biases to answer, I've yet to hear of a programme/machine/etc that I would consider concious, but by my reckoning it's only a matter of time! :D).

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Re: human vs Robot

Postby styrofoam » Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:38 pm UTC

TheAlmightyEgg wrote:isn't the general question of whether a robot can think rather akin to asking whether a submarine can swim?

Probably so, yes, but the OP wasn't asking if robots think. (s)he was asking if robots are alive (you don't have to be alive to think).
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Re: human vs Robot

Postby squareroot » Thu Aug 05, 2010 11:07 pm UTC

styrofoam wrote:
TheAlmightyEgg wrote:isn't the general question of whether a robot can think rather akin to asking whether a submarine can swim?

Probably so, yes, but the OP wasn't asking if robots think. (s)he was asking if robots are alive (you don't have to be alive to think).

I think many people would say it the other way - You have to be alive to think, otherwise it's "computation" or "execution" or just "physics", perhaps. And then they would go on to say that thinking, in some primitive form, is pre-requisite for true life.

And when you compare Deep Blue to E. Coli, you realize those people are jackwagons.
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Re: human vs Robot

Postby TheAlmightyEgg » Fri Aug 06, 2010 1:02 am UTC

squareroot wrote:
styrofoam wrote:
TheAlmightyEgg wrote:isn't the general question of whether a robot can think rather akin to asking whether a submarine can swim?

Probably so, yes, but the OP wasn't asking if robots think. (s)he was asking if robots are alive (you don't have to be alive to think).

I think many people would say it the other way - You have to be alive to think, otherwise it's "computation" or "execution" or just "physics", perhaps. And then they would go on to say that thinking, in some primitive form, is pre-requisite for true life.

And when you compare Deep Blue to E. Coli, you realize those people are jackwagons.


xe3r wrote:This question always bugged me,and they always gave me stupid illogical answers:
What makes a human different than a self-aware robot with the ability to learn and replicate itself?


The OP was asking if there was a significant difference between human beings and hypothetical robots that were a) self aware, b) able to learn and c) able to replicate themselves. I think we can all agree that what makes us human (or at least what makes being human significant) is our ability to think (and related issues such as our ability to experience emotions etc), so I was exploring what it really means to be able to think.

As far as the link between life and thought goes, I'd say that thought isn't necessary for life, but it is most certainly necessary in order for me to care about life - I'd have no problem killing off a culture of E. Coli, but would hesitate to kill anything with a reasonably advanced central nervous system. Exceptions are generally things which are required by many organisms that have CNSs, for example trees provide shelter and food for hundreds of low intelligence (relatively speaking), and some relatively high intelligence organisms, so I would hesitate to unnecessarily cut down a tree.

I suppose that I'm a neural utilitarian - the greatest good for the greatest number...of neurons. :)

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Re: human vs Robot

Postby xe3r » Fri Aug 06, 2010 6:25 pm UTC

TheAlmightyEgg wrote:The OP was asking if there was a significant difference between human beings and hypothetical robots that were a) self aware, b) able to learn and c) able to replicate themselves. I think we can all agree that what makes us human (or at least what makes being human significant) is our ability to think (and related issues such as our ability to experience emotions etc), so I was exploring what it really means to be able to think.


That was my question.. The only problem is that we are experiencing thinking only through a human brain(I don't think it could be done through another way :P ) so we see the world through our eyes.. How can you tell that a robot thinks differently.? and i don't compare a robot with modern humans,cause we have experienced years of evolution,but with a primitive man..

The emotions serve only one purpose,survival.. Its part of the brain.. A robot is able to "feel" emotions.. We just don't know how it feels to it.. You see even our emotions are caused through our body.. Cold,hot and even pain..

So what makes our thinking more special?how it differs from our basic instinct of survival?

It is a little more complicated than that because we have connected the world survival with the world nature,but our complicated thinking serves the same purpose as back then when we lived in caves,the only difference is that it is adapted to our current stage,and that is society and technology..

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Re: human vs Robot

Postby Axidos » Sat Aug 07, 2010 4:52 am UTC

xe3r wrote:That was my question.. The only problem is that we are experiencing thinking only through a human brain(I don't think it could be done through another way :P ) so we see the world through our eyes.. How can you tell that a robot thinks differently.? and i don't compare a robot with modern humans,cause we have experienced years of evolution,but with a primitive man..

The emotions serve only one purpose,survival.. Its part of the brain.. A robot is able to "feel" emotions.. We just don't know how it feels to it.. You see even our emotions are caused through our body.. Cold,hot and even pain..

So what makes our thinking more special?how it differs from our basic instinct of survival?

What makes your thinking so normal? How do you know I feel emotions the way you feel them? How do you know I'm not a mindless zombie appearing to behave in a similar way to you, but with no thought? The answer is you can't know, or else you've just solved the problem of other minds.

If a robot displays the same behaviour as regular people that's enough. It doesn't matter what or how it thinks, just like it doesn't matter what or how a human thinks.

Another human could be virtually mindless; the robot's mind could be such a blaze of mystery and beauty that anyone who glimpses its thought process is touched so deeply they cry in happiness until the day they die. But that doesn't matter because you can never know and it's irrelevant to their thought process. If a human displays happiness, you think they're happy, but there's nothing saying they do (maybe that's just an automated response from their mindless brain). By the opposite side of the coin, if a robot displays happiness, there's nothing saying they do not.

If you're not convinced, perhaps you should read something I linked earlier: Artificial Flight and Other Myths (a reasoned examination of A.F. by top birds)

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Re: human vs Robot

Postby xe3r » Sat Aug 07, 2010 11:46 am UTC

Axidos wrote:What makes your thinking so normal? How do you know I feel emotions the way you feel them? How do you know I'm not a mindless zombie appearing to behave in a similar way to you, but with no thought? The answer is you can't know, or else you've just solved the problem of other minds.


I am making the assumption that it doesn't matter in the current conversation.. You see the human brain shares common characteristics.. How anyone experiencing them does not affect the speciality of our thinking.. I don't see any possible way for the problem of other minds to be solved,only some philosophical approaches.. And although I agree with the materialists view I think that the basic operations of our brain remains the same (at least to the important parts)..

I'd like to point out also that my belief is that our thinking is not that special and it does not differ from our instinct of survival..(in case it wasn't clear.. :P )

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Re: human vs Robot

Postby tuseroni » Wed Aug 11, 2010 2:52 am UTC

MONKEY VERSUS ROBOT
MONKEY VERSUS ROBOT
robot hate the monkey
monkey hate technology
they will fight eternally!

sorry the topic seemed to silly to be serious
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Re: human vs Robot

Postby xe3r » Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:51 am UTC

tuseroni wrote:sorry the topic seemed to silly to be serious


Why?

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Re: human vs Robot

Postby kmatzen » Wed Aug 11, 2010 3:23 pm UTC

xe3r wrote:
tuseroni wrote:sorry the topic seemed to silly to be serious


Why?


Why not?

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Re: human vs Robot

Postby xe3r » Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:02 am UTC

kmatzen wrote:
xe3r wrote:
tuseroni wrote:sorry the topic seemed to silly to be serious


Why?


Why not?


Personally I don't see any reason why this topic is silly.. Thus for me the topic is not silly until proven so..

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Re: human vs Robot

Postby Turtlewing » Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:50 pm UTC

If two humans have sex you don't get a robot. Similarly the robots (most likely) don't produce humans as offspring.

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Re: human vs Robot

Postby Axidos » Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:54 am UTC

Turtlewing wrote:If two humans have sex you don't get a robot. Similarly the robots (most likely) don't produce humans as offspring.

Nobody was saying otherwise, but can we really be so sure about the future? Especially because of all that talk where living things are robots so technically humans and robots are already giving birth to each other.

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Re: human vs Robot

Postby serpent » Mon Aug 30, 2010 10:39 am UTC

The only reason why robots haven't exceeded us in any way is that they can't 'think' like we can. They don't run using large neural networks capable of parallel processing and learning - they run on fixed instructions that handle binary inputs and responses. In the future, if AI is redesigned to be more like the human brain (perhaps a simulated neural network), and therefore capable of learning, robots WILL take over. They would be capable of upgrading themselves, thinking a lot faster than we do, modifying their own minds, and fitting themselves with all sorts of gadgetry. In other words, the day robots become like us, we'll all be doomed :D


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