Gender Pronouns & Offtopic Discussion: The Game!

For all your silly time-killing forum games.

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Gender Pronouns & Offtopic Discussion: The Game!

Postby Vytron » Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:56 am UTC

Since humorous pronoun entries are being banned from the official thread, this is a bootleg thread in where you can post your pronouns, the ones you want people to use to reference you, here, nonseriously if you want! I'll even keep a list for them here!

(Serious entries will be ignored, we already have a thread for those...)

And I'll go first: My favorite: Use Vytron instead of he/she/it/they/madeupgenderneutral and Vytron's instead of his/her/its/their/madeupgenderneutral. It's as unambiguous as it gets (at least until another Vytron joins the forum!), and has the special feature of repeating my name over and over! (but if you don't do that, that's fine too!)

Name -- Preferences

Arlick -- He/him/his/He/him/his/He/him/his/why are there three of me?
Lawsome -- he/him/his/my lord/the emperor
Vytron -- Vytron/Vytron/Vytron's.
dudiobugtron -- it/its (for everything including I/you/they/me/etc.)
Adam H -- Billy/Billy/Billy's/Stacy/Mary/Cathy's/jackass (doesn't want anyone to mess up Billy's pronouns)
Rosewinsall - MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

YOU CAN DISCUSS ANY THING AND EVERYTHING ON THIS THREAD AND IT WILL NOT BE A DERAIL?
Last edited by Vytron on Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:47 am UTC, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Gender Pronouns: The Game!

Postby dudiobugtron » Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:33 am UTC

It thinks that pronouns which distinguish between different people are entirely inappropriate. For that reason, it encourages everyone to stop using any pronouns which distinguish between the speaker/writer and its audience. In particular, it proposes that it stop using you/your/yours and I/me/my/mine. It would like all pronouns to just be it/its. (Including plural pronouns - it doesn't need to distinguish between the one and the many. Otherwise people with multiple personalities or multiple minds will feel ostracised.)

------------
(The below has been Spoilered for seriousness):
Spoiler:
Seriously, though, the Gender pronouns thread is a really good resource, and suspending frivolity and chatter in that thread makes it work better. You shouldn't be too petulant about it.
Image

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Re: Gender Pronouns: The Game!

Postby Vytron » Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:47 pm UTC

Deva has already beat you on that. Uses it/its without mentioning it/its :mrgreen:

------------
(The below has been Spoilered for seriousness):
Spoiler:
Heh, I just think a thread that informs other people about what pronouns people want to be used for them doesn't need to be as SERIOUS BUSINESS as their creators and moderators make it to be.

Using red letters to threaten people who dare to use the thread to discuss the thread, when that is fine to do in most other threads of Forum Games, and discouraging people to post their content on a humorous manner, while in the rest of the subforum humor is considered very fun and a core part of some games, it just feels as if outsiders that don't even play in Forum Games, and that I even find weird would be interested about what pronouns people they don't play with want to use for them, are telling us what to do.

So, since Forum Games can't be "split" from the jurisdiction of the other parts from the xkcd forum, the least I can hope for is to have a thread equivalent from our people, to our people. People that play with other Forum Gamers, appreciate other Forum Gamers, and care.

One where you can post without worrying about moderation threatening you with DESIST letters, one where the creator won't complain about your posts, and one where you can post your pronouns humorously without being discouraged.

So this is my proposal, and I'm happy it'll be here even though it'll probably be buried in page 3 by 4 months from now or something while the other one remains sticked, this is about principles and this should suffice.

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Re: Gender Pronouns: The Game!

Postby SecondTalon » Thu Jan 30, 2014 4:41 pm UTC

See, turns out some people are really, really, really bothered by being misgendered. Hence the allowing of people to decide their gender, more or less. And to change it, if they'd like.

And, again, the red letters aren't to be BIG and SCARY and MEAN. It's to distinguish between when a moderator is actually performing some sort of moderator duty and when the moderator in question isn't giving advice but legitimately saying "No, seriously, this is how it works here."

That it's also a Preacher reference is totally an accident. Totally.

As far as the Outsiders bit goes.... I don't give a shit?

That's.. really the fastest way to say it. I don't give a shit if you feel as though it's a bunch of people who aren't engaged in Forum Games telling you how to conduct your business here. Somewhat because you're probably right, but mostly because the internet is a hostile place for people who don't neatly fit in to tidy boxes. We do our best (and fuck up from time to time, yes) to make sure this place - meaning the entire forum - is a welcoming and friendly place for people who don't fit in to tidy boxes, and a place where they can feel perfectly fine not just that they don't fit in the box well, but that they can completely stop trying to fit in the boxes.

But if you're the sort of person who does fit in to tidy boxes... that's great too!

But if you are bothered by our good-natured attempts to make pretty much everyone feel welcome and don't have a way for us to make it more welcoming and aren't able to tell us that we're fucking up somewhere and how we can fix it, and are just all around bothered that we'd rather you not joke around in one fucking thread.... I don't give a shit. Don't joke around in that thread.

Shit ain't that hard.

...

If you're waiting for the part where I lock or close this thread or whatever, that's not happening either, as I don't see anything wrong with this one. Perhaps I've spent too much time in FaiD.
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Re: Gender Pronouns: The Game!

Postby Adam H » Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:36 pm UTC

Vytron, please put me down for "Billy/Billy/Billy's". E.g.: Adam doesn't want anyone to mess up Billy's pronouns.
-Adam

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Re: Gender Pronouns: The Game!

Postby Vytron » Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:51 pm UTC

Adam H wrote:Vytron, please put me down for "Billy/Billy/Billy's". E.g.: Adam doesn't want anyone to mess up Billy's pronouns.


Done!

@SecondTalon: Whoa! I posted this thread back in July 2013, heck if I remember what I said back then. Probably something crazy as apparently I was okay with people calling me a she :mrgreen: - I still didn't like Weeks telling me to fuck off in the other thread, though :P

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Re: Gender Pronouns: The Game!

Postby Adam H » Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:30 pm UTC

Vytron wrote:I still didn't like Weeks telling me to fuck off in the other thread, though :P
I gotta be honest, I lawled at that.
-Adam

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Re: Gender Pronouns: The Game!

Postby Adam H » Fri Sep 12, 2014 7:48 pm UTC

Weeks wrote:Please refrain from discussing people's pronoun choices.

There goes The Man again, trying to keep us down.

In honor of patzer, please change my pronouns to Stacy/Mary/Cathy's. For example, you/it* might post the following:
Adam H is so cool, Stacy's cold! I wish I could be more like Mary with regards to Cathy's choice of gender pronouns.


*dudiobugtron
-Adam

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Re: Gender Pronouns: The Game!

Postby SDK » Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:37 pm UTC

I would like to be referred to as "moderator" instead of he or him, and "moderator's" instead of his. Thank you. You may all bow before me if you wish.
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Re: Gender Pronouns: The Game!

Postby Rosewinsall » Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:56 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:See, turns out some people are really, really, really bothered by being misgendered. Hence the allowing of people to decide their gender, more or less. And to change it, if they'd like.


mmmhm I see no probs with the gender pronouns thread.

also MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

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Re: Gender Pronouns: The Game!

Postby SecondTalon » Fri Sep 12, 2014 10:41 pm UTC

Adam H wrote:In honor of patzer, please change my pronouns to Stacy/Mary/Cathy's. For example, you/it* might post the following:
Adam H is so cool, Stacy's cold! I wish I could be more like Mary with regards to Cathy's choice of gender pronouns.


*dudiobugtron


See, had I written the rules, I'd have applied my usual last rule of "Wheaton's Rule" the whole "Don't be a jerk" sort of thing. But I didn't.. at least not for here, so I'm not going to do much other than say I'm disappointed as this comes across as mockery of another forum user for... something I don't see as being particularly neat to mock someone about. Overuse of smileys? Constant lols? Bizarre phrasing? Lack of punctuation and capitalization? Poor spelling? Hairstyle? Those are more often than not conscious, deliberate choices. And when they are simply output of how a person grew in to interacting or existing, it's still something that can be changed with no ill effect on the person.

Gender identity isn't a deliberate choice. Granted, it's often more that it can be difficult to find the exact phrasing to describe oneself, leaving a person to use existing terminology as it more or less fits. But if someone feels they don't fit in a neat box in a society that doesn't really know how to address people who don't fit in neat boxes, making a mockery of that is in bad taste.

Because.. you're coming across as a pretty big jackass here. And that's coming from a jackass, so you know it's true.
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Re: Gender Pronouns: The Game!

Postby patzer » Fri Sep 12, 2014 11:12 pm UTC

Wow, I stirred up a storm here. :D

>Yes, I am unsure of my gender IRL. May be MtF. Have told a few family members. Not sure what's next for me due to being not at all confident in my mixed up feelings. But it's something I'm trying to understand.

>The mods here have a great attitude towards protecting people's feelings. Kudos.

>Humor is often the cure to serious issues. The various comments (e.g. by Vytron and Adam) did not offend me at all. Carry on with the jokes, Stacy. :mrgreen: However, the mods could not know whether I would be offended of not, so I believe their response was justified.

Sometimes people disagree. But those disagreements get resolved much easier if they just say how they feel.

Big *hugs* to you all.

peace
If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have at least to consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family Anatidae on our hands. –Douglas Adams

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Re: Gender Pronouns: The Game!

Postby Vytron » Fri Sep 12, 2014 11:22 pm UTC

Well, I don't know what's going on anymore, so I'll just to Adam H's side! Er, Stacy/Mary/Cathy's side? I have to spell all three every time, right?

*hugs patzer back*

Anyway, just have to say this, I was reprimanded by Angua by private message about this, and it seems that's what SecondTalon was doing with Adam, specially, this part:

SecondTalon wrote:Because.. you're coming across as a pretty big jackass here. And that's coming from a jackass, so you know it's true.


Christ, what a rear end in a top hat!

I consider myself great friends with patzer, and Stacy/Mary/Cathy, and SDK, and Rosewinsall, and Dudiobugtron, and many others. They're probably friends with each other too!

SecondTalon, Angua and Weeks seem like, out of place here, not connected in the least with the Forum Gamers community, and basically ruining the fun of good-spirited chatter.

Forum games should be a place where you can ask your friends if they changed their genders without 2 moderators jumping in and calling people names, moderators that aren't even around playing games and seem to just be global mods of the entire forum, so I disagree with patzer that they were justified, just because they have forum powers doesn't mean they should be able to call people names in a community that is usually friendly with each other, until moderators appear and take everything as SERIOUS BUSINESS!

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Re: Gender Pronouns: The Game!

Postby patzer » Fri Sep 12, 2014 11:37 pm UTC

Vytron wrote:I consider myself great friends with patzer
Forum games should be a place where you can ask your friends if they changed their genders without 2 moderators jumping in and calling people names, moderators that aren't even around playing games and seem to just be global mods of the entire forum, so I disagree with patzer that they were justified, just because they have forum powers doesn't mean they should be able to call people names in a community that is usually friendly with each other, until moderators appear and take everything as SERIOUS BUSINESS!

...friends. I have a friend. Really, that made my day. Thank you.
Hmm, it does seem like a bit of an overreaction when you put it like that. Analogy: coworkers are chatting, one of them calls another the n-word, in jest. Boss isn't quite sure how friendly with each other coworkers are. Boss overhears, reprimands coworker in question for using offensive language.
Was xe right in doing so? Difficult to say. Xe believed xe was protecting someone. Only later does xe discover intervention was unneeded.

All hierarchy systems hit a few bumps somewhere along the road. Nothing is perfect.

The important thing is that our hearts were in the right place.
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Re: Gender Pronouns: The Game!

Postby Vytron » Fri Sep 12, 2014 11:45 pm UTC

I don't think that could happen, a boss would keep in touch with his employees, and know if that kind of stuff happened between friends already, unless he was a new boss that just arrived and had no clue of what is going on. Then it'd be right for the boss to do so.

But, are Angua or SecondTalon new mods that are new to the place?

No, they just don't get involved with this subcommunity at all, they appear and tell me "you just did something wrong!" or call Adam a jackass for no good reason.

We need a mod on this subforums that monitors it and knows what's going on, that keeps in touch, instead of appearing several months or years apart, or just monitoring a single thread (the gender one, apparently, if I asked patzer the same question in the Guess the Next Poster thread they'd not have even noticed.)

Alternatively, they could force jestingrabbit to play games with us, then he'd keep in touch and know about the stuff that happens around here, and it'd be his responsibility to keep this forum clean (not that we actually need moderation, the most major thing happening around recently was Daggot's constant insults that almost made me want to quit the forum, but I just blacklisted him and went on, so even in the worst cases moderation doesn't seem needed around here. At least, not one that judges people guilty without a trial.)

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Re: Gender Pronouns: The Game!

Postby SecondTalon » Fri Sep 12, 2014 11:46 pm UTC

Hmm, it does seem like a bit of an overreaction when you put it like that. Analogy: coworkers are chatting, one of them calls another the n-word, in jest. Boss isn't quite sure how friendly with each other coworkers are. Boss overhears, reprimands coworker in question for using offensive language.
Was xe right in doing so?


Absolutely.

Your analogy fails because that sort of language is not workplace appropriate in any current setting.

A more apt analogy would be a neighborhood where people set each other's lawn furniture on fire, someone calling the police and police responding.

Police don't give a shit that Bob is perfectly fine with Alice setting his lawn furniture on fire, Police want you to cut that shit out because of the calls they're getting, and how it doesn't jive with the city's laws and unspoken social rules in every other neighborhood in town.

And what Alice and Bob fail to realize is that the flying embers are setting Charlie and Danielle's houses on fire.
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Re: Gender Pronouns: The Game!

Postby Vytron » Fri Sep 12, 2014 11:49 pm UTC

(I just ninjaed you ST, please scroll back to read my post.)

And, wow! When did Stacy/Mary/Cathy set patzer's lawn furniture on fire? Wow, again! I didn't know that happened!

I take back what I said, that was something really mean to do Stacy/Mary/Cathy! I think you should apologize!

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Re: Gender Pronouns: The Game!

Postby Adam H » Sat Sep 13, 2014 12:19 am UTC

SecondTalon wrote:
Adam H wrote:In honor of patzer, please change my pronouns to Stacy/Mary/Cathy's. For example, you/it* might post the following:
Adam H is so cool, Stacy's cold! I wish I could be more like Mary with regards to Cathy's choice of gender pronouns.


*dudiobugtron


See, had I written the rules, I'd have applied my usual last rule of "Wheaton's Rule" the whole "Don't be a jerk" sort of thing. But I didn't.. at least not for here, so I'm not going to do much other than say I'm disappointed as this comes across as mockery of another forum user for... something I don't see as being particularly neat to mock someone about. Overuse of smileys? Constant lols? Bizarre phrasing? Lack of punctuation and capitalization? Poor spelling? Hairstyle? Those are more often than not conscious, deliberate choices. And when they are simply output of how a person grew in to interacting or existing, it's still something that can be changed with no ill effect on the person.

Gender identity isn't a deliberate choice. Granted, it's often more that it can be difficult to find the exact phrasing to describe oneself, leaving a person to use existing terminology as it more or less fits. But if someone feels they don't fit in a neat box in a society that doesn't really know how to address people who don't fit in neat boxes, making a mockery of that is in bad taste.

Because.. you're coming across as a pretty big jackass here. And that's coming from a jackass, so you know it's true.

Oh god I meant no offense at all. I consider myself patzer's forum-game buddy (friend!) and I really did mean it as a sort of congratulatory hat tip. I wasn't thinking clearly when I posted about all the ways it could be interpreted. I certainly wasn't intending to seem mocking. It was all poorly thought through. I am really sorry for offending.

I definitely don't have a problem with being called a jackass. If one person thought I was being a jackass, then yeah I screwed up no matter how benign my intentions were.


(And Vytron if you are going to use those (possibly-still-offensive-and-shouldn't-be-used?) pronouns, can you at least get them right? My name is still Adam H, and "Stacy/Mary/Cathy's" should map one-to-one onto "he/him/his". ;) )
-Adam

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Re: Gender Pronouns: The Game!

Postby Rosewinsall » Sat Sep 13, 2014 12:30 am UTC

I am here as an alternate opinion. Also to say I consider patzer my friend. Anyway I want to say that I am a trans woman meself and and at first Adam calling himself typically female names was slightly upsetting to me. I saw it as unintentionally transphobic. However after reading every post here after that I see it as a fun way to lighten things up. Not everybody will find it funny or harmless I know.

tl;dr: Even though it was slightly offensive to me I know not all trans people feel this way.

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Re: Gender Pronouns: The Game!

Postby Vytron » Sat Sep 13, 2014 12:35 am UTC

Adam H wrote:I definitely don't have a problem with being called a jackass.


Huh? Did you forget what thread you're in? I have edited the OP, you jackass! XD

And, while we're getting out of the closet, I've got to admit, I'm a homo...
Spoiler:
...phobic.

What, did you expect the punch line to be "I'm a homo sapiens"? Nah, I'm actually a homophobic.

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Re: Gender Pronouns: The Game!

Postby Rosewinsall » Sat Sep 13, 2014 12:38 am UTC

@Vytron
Spoiler:
I'm confuzzled. you are or aren't homophobic?

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Re: Gender Pronouns: The Game!

Postby Vytron » Sat Sep 13, 2014 12:42 am UTC

@Rosewinsall
Spoiler:
I am! It's in my nature, I can't do anything to stop it.

I have nothing against lesbians, though, I know that if I was a woman I'd surely be a lesbian.

However, I've also have had several gay male friends, and get along with them just well, I got nothing against them, just their sexual preference, but it's also in their nature, so I comprehend.

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Re: Gender Pronouns: The Game!

Postby Rosewinsall » Sat Sep 13, 2014 12:44 am UTC

@Vytron
Spoiler:
I live in a religious state and I have quite a few friends like that. We can still get along.

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Re: Gender Pronouns: The Game!

Postby Vytron » Sat Sep 13, 2014 8:19 am UTC

jestingrabbit wrote:I think weeks trying to keep a thread he created and maintains relevant and on topic is perfectly fine.

What you've been doing? Much less so. Lets return to the people telling others what their preferred gender pronouns are, and cease the chatter.


What? This is censorship! If Weeks created that thread to talk about certain pronouns, I should be able to continue the chatter about it in the thread where I created to continue talking about it!

(unless, you meant, cease the chatter in that thread, which I can agree to, or I'd be posting this there)

My point stands, the description for this forum is:

"For all your silly time-killing forum games."

Is Weeks's thread a "silly time-killing forum game"? No, it has no place here. Or at least, all being treated like a criminal for talking in that thread has no place here. "Feel free to be silly and kill your time on this subforum, except in the Gender Pronouns thread. Because Weeks created it"?

But, eh, it seems you're picky on the threads you choose to monitor here, because you don't keep in touch (why are you moderator of this board if you don't like Forum Games at all?) so who knows if you'll be even reading this. Way to keep the communication going.

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Re: Gender Pronouns: The Game!

Postby jestingrabbit » Sat Sep 13, 2014 10:21 am UTC

Vytron wrote:Is Weeks's thread a "silly time-killing forum game"? No, it has no place here.


In much the same way as the rules thread and the easy posting thread have a place here, the pronouns thread belongs here. It facilitates polite play.

Or at least, all being treated like a criminal for talking in that thread has no place here.


Treating you like a criminal would be banning you.

"Feel free to be silly and kill your time on this subforum, except in the Gender Pronouns thread. Because Weeks created it"?


Because its there for specific purpose. Its business, not bullshit.

But, eh, it seems you're picky on the threads you choose to monitor here, because you don't keep in touch (why are you moderator of this board if you don't like Forum Games at all?) so who knows if you'll be even reading this. Way to keep the communication going.


I keep moderation here sparse. I moderate when people complain. People complained about you. You've been moderated in the other thread before, because people complained about you. Maybe you should think about that, and use your thoughts to work out whether your input in there is going to be considered constructive or not.
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Re: Gender Pronouns: The Game!

Postby Vytron » Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:01 am UTC

Weeks complained about me? That's not surprising, he doesn't play here either.

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Re: Gender Pronouns: The Game!

Postby Angua » Sun Sep 14, 2014 9:10 am UTC

Vytron, you need to cut it out. I'm sorry that you feel unfairly put upon by people who don't spend much time here, but at some point you need to realise that while it was unintentional, it was still something that met the requirements for mod action.

The gender pronouns thread is not the same as the rest of the threads in forum games. It has been stickied, which shows that it is important and has a function rather than being a game.

I sent you a pm which said that I realised you probably didn't realise how your post could come off, but it was felt that it was a bit judgemental and said why. Secondtalon went about it in a different way (and Adam H took it graciously and saw how their post could be construed). You brought the issue out to the boards and said that we were unfairly saying that you'd done something wrong. Therefore, I will make my response in kind, so that you and others will hopefully be able to follow the mods' reasoning.

It is our responsibility to make sure the boards are inclusive for everyone. Rosewinsall kindly posted at how they felt that Adam H's post was upsetting (albeit unintentionally so), though after reading the discussions about why such posts were made (which were most likely solely due to mod intervention) they felt better. If the mods were not here, we would have at least one poster who would be upset, though they might not feel as though it's something worth reporting. There may well be other posters around who feel the same.

Secondtalon's analogy was amusingly over the top, but here is mine: Some male coworkers are jokingly saying to Sarah that she had messed up for whatever reason because she's a women. They're all good friends outside of work,and she may or may not take it in good faith, but Jackie and Clara who are overhearing the conversation and a bit newer to the company definitely then feel as though it's a hostile environment. The boss, (who doesn't know the people quite so well as they don't have an outside work relationship with this people) overhears and tells the male coworkers that sexist comments are not welcome in the workplace - Jackie and Clara overhear and know that they can come forward if someone says similar comments to them (the group being reprimanded may or may not point out that they were friends and it was unintentional, but either way the air has been cleared from the workplace, and a discussion about sexism in the workplace has been had).

Finally, it is important to remember that certain issues (like gender) can be very personal. Bantering about them may or may not be ok, even if you consider that person your friend - it may still be sensitive to them, and this sensitivity can vary depending on other factors in their lives. I can't know the relationships between everyone in the forum, but then, neither can other posters in the forum, both now and in the future. While the gender threads are not tagged specifically as safespaces (which are my main responsibility as a mod), they are a place that need to be kept free from judgement as much as possible so people feel comfortable about using them properly and being able to update them as they feel fit.
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Re: Gender Pronouns: The Game!

Postby Vytron » Sun Sep 14, 2014 6:37 pm UTC

Thanks Angua, that's the most civilized response I've gotten from a mod, ever, on the xkcd forums, and I have had many of them. They always sound threatening, or grumpy, or that they'd be really happy if I or people like me were away from the forum, so I can't do anything but take it personal.

Oh, and yeah, you say Adam took it in a gracious manner, I say he didn't do anything wrong and apologized instead of defending his rights. Of course, it turns out that's the easiest way to make authorities happy...

And, if you think people not being upset is very important, I want to report something: Weeks has made me very upset, he's a person that doesn't play at all here, doesn't seem to have any business around here, yet, he has always spoken to me as if he was a moderator and I was a lesser being. Or something.

He created a thread where people can say their preferred gender pronoun, but he doesn't seem to care about these people, or getting to know them. He just wants to keep them away from his thread unless they only say their gender pronoun and don't include anything else.

The thread could easily had become a general introduction thread for new players, where they say their gender pronoun and can give some description about themselves, if they want, and other players can welcome them to the board and have a bit of chatting to get them started in games. Because regulars around here have less of a chance of posting there, it's mainly a thread for newcomers.

Instead, newcomers see drama, and someone telling other people they should only post about gender pronouns and nothing else, even though that's an arbitrary rule that doesn't help the thread and doesn't seem very welcoming (specially, it's not welcoming to discussion between regulars and newcomers, newcomers are expected to get into games with strangers with no possibility to discussing with them beforehand, not even per chance on the gender pronoun thread, as if extra posts on that thread were hurting someone or were "undermining the system".)

And, finally, I'd like to talk about the thread itself.

Why is it there?

Why is it so important that people use the right pronouns for other people in games, but not on the rest of the board?

It seems to me such a thread belongs in Announcements, just like POST APPROVAL IN FORUM GAMES, "Forum Games" Rules, and xkcd Forum Rules, but open.

The idea is, it's a thread that appears everywhere, like xkcd Forum Rules does, so any newcomer in any forum can see it and choose their gender pronoun, something not specific to Forum Games.

And it would be more efficient, as we have Gender pronouns for our players! in the Mafia subforum as well, and if it was deemed as something important (you claim it's something very important) in something else but games, new copies of the thread need to be created in every single forum, instead of having this big gender pronouns thread for the whole forum.

So, that's my question, Weeks seems to care so very much about what gender pronouns are used on a subforum where he doesn't play, related to games, why is it important here but not in any other kind of forum?

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Re: Gender Pronouns: The Game!

Postby Vytron » Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:06 pm UTC

And what's with mods wanting to carry this out on private message? Is it because of this that I said?

Vytron wrote:They always sound threatening, or grumpy, or that they'd be really happy if I or people like me were away from the forum


They want to keep that a secret?

Because, it makes me very upset to be treated like this by the mods, to whom do I report them to?

They inform me that I did something wrong, and that I have a problem.

This is latest example by gmalivuk, which would have wished if his admonition was kept between the two of us and I replied by PM, presumably:

gmalivuk wrote:Subject: Gender Pronouns: The Game!

Vytron wrote:Oh, and yeah, you say Adam took it in a gracious manner, I say he didn't do anything wrong and apologized instead of defending his rights.
The fact that you see this as some kind of "rights" issue instead of a "be nice to people and apologize when you inadvertently hurt them" issue is, I think, a big part of your problem.

It does not infringe upon your rights when people expect you to apologize for messing up.


Adam didn't "mess up".

"Messing up" is about having bad intentions, and Adam didn't have any.

If this was a trial case, Adam would have been Not Guilty, he chose to make an arrangement where the trial was cancelled if he apologized, and that's his choice, but I still claim that people should only apologize when they had the intention of doing something bad, which Adam didn't.

Adam was coerced into apologizing by SexyTalon and that's just wrong. And SexyTalon did it with that intention.

Some moderators seem to feel that just because they have powers to close, move, split, merge and delete threads and posts that they're over regular members. If Adam H was a moderator and he made the post that he did, nobody would have called him out on it, just like nobody is calling SexyTalon for it, other than "it was over the top". I find this discriminatory, regular members are some kind of second class around here.

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Re: Gender Pronouns: The Game!

Postby gmalivuk » Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:31 pm UTC

I sent you a PM because I'm not a moderator here and was therefore not taking moderator action and also didn't want to continue this off-topic rant you've started in the thread.

No, messing up is not having bad intentions. If I accidentally step on your toe without even knowing it was there, then I messed up and I should apologize. If I intended to step on your toe, on the other hand, then I can't have messed up when I successfully carry out my intention. Fortunately, Adam H wasn't intending to hurt anyone, and so it was a legitimate case of messing up followed by an apology and all was well.

If Adam H feels he was "coerced" into apologizing, you should let him speak for himself because it's really not your place.
Last edited by gmalivuk on Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:32 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gender Pronouns: The Game!

Postby Rosewinsall » Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:32 pm UTC

Vytron please give it up.

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Re: Gender Pronouns: The Game!

Postby patzer » Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:35 pm UTC

@Vytron

The reasons such conversations are carried out privately is that carrying out such discussions in public could create a more hostile atmosphere. Also, private conversations allow someone to quietly accept the mods' judgement and save face- clearly you don't want that though!

Adam apologised, presumably because he realized his post could have been offensive, though he didn't realize that when he first made the post. In any context such a post as Adam's is inadvisable, because it could be seen as making fun of someone's gender.

Your post, on the other hand, wasn't offensive in that way. It did, however, pressure someone into talking about a topic they might feel uncomfortable talking about, hence the moderators' decision to intervene.

You have rather strong opinions on some matters. When I face a moderation judgement I don't like, I don't usually complain. Why complain? One could simply accept the judgement and move on. Problems rarely occur, why make a fuss when they do occur?
Perhaps you simply don't like admitting defeat. I have exactly the same problem- which is why I don't enter arguments in the first place! Or maybe you want a change in the system? Want a moderator who is a regular poster? I would be quite happy to become mod of Forum Games sans Mafia, if our Supreme Overlords agree. But is it necessary to debate this? Is it worth starting arguments disrupting the peaceful nature of this place, solely to solve problems which rarely occur anyway? I don't think so.

(side note/suggestion: The moderators should make an optional "pronoun" field visible on members' profiles, thus saving the need for these threads)

tl/dr: I concur with Rosewinsall, but in a less hostile manner.
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Re: Gender Pronouns: The Game!

Postby gmalivuk » Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:40 pm UTC

patzer wrote:(side note/suggestion: The moderators should make an optional "pronoun" field visible on members' profiles, thus saving the need for these threads)
That's a good idea, though I don't know how feasible it is for anyone but davean to add that option.

In the meantime, folks can also use their signatures for that, or the "Location" setting most people already answer with tongue in cheek.
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Re: Gender Pronouns: The Game!

Postby Angua » Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:48 pm UTC

PMs are because that's how we generally handle things. May I refer you to rule 12.
hermaj wrote:
12. Handle moderation concerns through the proper channels - do not start a thread about it, and do not derail a current thread to discuss it. PM the moderator in question, or if that's not known, PM Belial.

Moderator concerns are to be dealt with privately. If you are unhappy with a decision made by a moderator, PM the moderator in question, or if that's not known, contact Belial. If you're not sure which moderator it was, and the situation occurred in an area looked after by one or more magistrates, they should be your first point of call for that area. In any case, it's a good idea to PM a mod that frequents the board you're having issues on for a faster response.

Do not shop around among the moderators until you get the response you want. We do all talk to each other, and that will likely only make things worse for you. If, however, after speaking to a moderator you still feel that your situation was not dealt with appropriately or fairly, you may bring it to an admin.




Now, we've given you an extraordinary amount of latitude with the fact that you've been bringing this out into a public thread. Please try to respect that.

The reason that there are gender threads in mafia and forum games is because the frequenters of the forums felt they were required, first in mafia, then in forum games (as there is a bit of an overlap between the two). They aren't used elsewhere as they are not as needed - posters interact with each other differently in the main boards, and rarely have to talk about multiple other posters (unlike in mafia where you are having to talk about the intentions and actions of multiple other people). Weeks happened to be the one to make these threads when they were more active in this part of the forum, which is why they maintain the thread. People tend to come and go in mafia and forum games, so it's not surprising that you might have only interacted through the gender threads which are a different environment to the rest of the forum games forum.

Now, could everyone (including myself) please refrain from discussing this further in this thread (PM, by all means). If you would like to PM a higher authority, then by all means PM an admin (Hammer or Belial).
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Re: Gender Pronouns: The Game!

Postby Vytron » Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:47 am UTC

Angua wrote:Now, could everyone (including myself) please refrain from discussing this further in this thread (PM, by all means). If you would like to PM a higher authority, then by all means PM an admin (Hammer or Belial).


Wait, what? This is my thread, I make its rules, please respect my rights, I just have added a rule at the bottom of the first post, please go and read it, it should be over moderator actions like yours, unless you're a cheater that don't follow the rules of games here :mrgreen:

But, anyway, I'm very happy that all this got Weeks and gmalivuk playing in games here, I hope they stick around :)

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Re: Gender Pronouns & Offtopic Discussion: The Game!

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Sep 15, 2014 11:41 am UTC

Bro we were playing games here years before you even knew the forums existed.
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Re: Gender Pronouns: The Game!

Postby Azrael » Mon Sep 15, 2014 12:07 pm UTC

Vytron wrote:Wait, what? This is my thread.


It is not your thread. It stopped being your thread the moment you posted it, at which point it became the forum's thread and fell under the rules and jurisdiction of the people who run the forum.

Thread authorship does not give you any special authority or privilege. While authorship in forum games *might* convince the other players to play by the rules of game play you establish for that thread, it certainly does not grant you leave to ignore moderation or a provide you a free pass on the rules and structures that govern the entire forum.

The staff has discussed this matter and fully supports the moderator actions taken here. The discussion is now closed. PM me if I have been unclear.

Locked.


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