What do you think we will see at the LHC?

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What do you think we will see?

Higgs Boson
62
31%
Micro black holes
32
16%
Supersymmetry
22
11%
Headcrabs
70
35%
Other(please specify)
16
8%
 
Total votes: 202

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Yakk
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Re: Question about the Large Hadron Collider

Postby Yakk » Sun Aug 17, 2008 4:39 pm UTC

Minerva wrote:
miles01110 wrote:The energy in this case is more akin to an aircraft carrier moving at 30 knots.


Is that really true?

2808 bunches * 1.15 * 1011 protons in each bunch * 7 TeV = 362 MJ as the total kinetic energy carried in the circulating p beam.

A Nimitz class carrier has a displacement of close to 100,000 tons, therefore having a kinetic energy of 10.8 gigajoules at 30 knots. For a ship travelling at 30 knots to have the same kinetic energy as that beam, it would need to have a mass of 3352 tons, which is a far, far smaller ship.

Or, have I done something stupid? Corrections, of course, are welcome.


The French aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle has a light displacement of 38,000 tons.

Using google calculator (double checking is good, right?):
(38 000 short tons * ((30 knots)^2)) / 2 = 4.10552603 × 10^9 joules
2808 * 1.15 * (10^11) * (7 TeV) = 362 162 376 joules

Still off by a factor of 10.
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Re: Question about the Large Hadron Collider

Postby Minerva » Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:19 pm UTC

Did I ever mention I absolutely love Google Calculator for doing this kind of physics-type stuff?
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Re: Question about the Large Hadron Collider

Postby hagger » Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:38 pm UTC

Yakk wrote:
Minerva wrote:
miles01110 wrote:The energy in this case is more akin to an aircraft carrier moving at 30 knots.


Is that really true?

2808 bunches * 1.15 * 1011 protons in each bunch * 7 TeV = 362 MJ as the total kinetic energy carried in the circulating p beam.

A Nimitz class carrier has a displacement of close to 100,000 tons, therefore having a kinetic energy of 10.8 gigajoules at 30 knots. For a ship travelling at 30 knots to have the same kinetic energy as that beam, it would need to have a mass of 3352 tons, which is a far, far smaller ship.

Or, have I done something stupid? Corrections, of course, are welcome.


The French aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle has a light displacement of 38,000 tons.

Using google calculator (double checking is good, right?):
(38 000 short tons * ((30 knots)^2)) / 2 = 4.10552603 × 10^9 joules
2808 * 1.15 * (10^11) * (7 TeV) = 362 162 376 joules

Still off by a factor of 10.

I'm not sure how knots and short tons work precisely in relation to SI units, but I'd be surprised if they cancel out to joules when you use Ek = 0.5mv2. I could be wrong. Plus, according to the wiki entry for Short Ton, the slightly different Long Ton is used in the US for nautical ship weights. So possibly you have a conversion error somewhere? I'm not sure which tons a French battleship would use...

Curse these bizarre measurements! Confusion reigns! And this is probably getting a bit off-topic, but oh well.

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Re: Question about the Large Hadron Collider

Postby phlip » Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:52 pm UTC

hagger wrote:I'm not sure how knots and short tons work precisely in relation to SI units, but I'd be surprised if they cancel out to joules when you use Ek = 0.5mv2.

Yeah, but this is Google Calculator... it does unit conversion automatically.

0.5 * 1kg * (1 m/s)^2 = 0.5 joules
0.5 * 1 ton * (1 knot)^2 = 120.044621 joules

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Re: Question about the Large Hadron Collider

Postby Minerva » Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:16 am UTC

You can see why I like Google Calculator. In fact, maybe we can start a thread on all the cool sciencey things you can do with it.

[url]http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=2808+*+1.15+*+10^11+*+7+TeV++%2F+(1%2F2+*+(30+knots)^2)+in+tons&btnG=Search&meta=[/url]
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Re: Question about the Large Hadron Collider

Postby phlip » Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:00 am UTC

Minerva wrote:[url]http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=2808+*+1.15+*+10^11+*+7+TeV++%2F+(1%2F2+*+(30+knots)^2)+in+tons&btnG=Search&meta=[/url]

Is it just me, or is it fitting that the only result (other than Google Calculator) from that URL is another forum with the same "aircraft carrier" comparison?

I guess the numbers are pretty LHC-specific, and "knots" sorta narrows down the contexts that you'd be mentioning the LHC in, but still...

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Re: Question about the Large Hadron Collider

Postby Soralin » Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:04 am UTC

google calculator is nice :)

the answer to life the universe and everything slug, once in a blue moon, in dram per fortnight

is apparently 4883.19358 :)

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What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Postby alexgmcm » Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:53 am UTC

Well the question is kinda self-explanatory. I mean here we are 10 years and £3.5bn later and now we finally get to see what will happen.

Do you think we will see the Higgs Boson?. Or microscopic black holes? Or we will tear a hole in the space-time continuum and have to fight aliens from the planet Xen?

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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Postby Notch » Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:58 am UTC

Headcrabs would be by far the most significant and cool outcome! =D Awesome!

/me starts sharpening crowbar.

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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Postby Cryopyre » Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:05 am UTC

I'm gonna make Barney give me my gun...
And if he decides he's giving me the crowbar *shakes fist*
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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Postby Red Hal » Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:15 am UTC

Serious answer? Micro Black Holes. I don't think we'll find the Higgs Boson. Non-serious answer: Headcrabs ftw.
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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Postby Firnagzen » Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:06 am UTC

Headcrabs are a cool bonus, though if we see micro black holes with world eating capability, the headcrabs and combine won't be the problem...

Seriously? I'm hoping for the Higgs boson. Oh, and if anyone checks super symmetry and the higgs boson, you'll be eating my crowbar soon.
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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Postby Matterwave1 » Mon Sep 01, 2008 9:27 am UTC

I think a lot of scientists are gonna cry when no Higgs Boson is found... :P

jk

I have no idea...I would guess OTHER. As it's a pretty safe bet we're gonna find something we didn't expect hehe.

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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Postby rho » Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:39 pm UTC

Why is everyone so worried about micro blackholes anyway? With a machine that big the chances of a resonance cascade failiure are pretty high. I mean, It's only a matter of time before someone starts sticking some anomalous materials in the proton beam :p

Seriously though: It'd be lovely if signs of SUSY appeared. SUSY is very pretty.
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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Postby Charlie! » Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:09 pm UTC

I would guess 42.
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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Postby miles01110 » Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:29 pm UTC

Here's some info for those of you interested in watching the events surrounding September 10:

Dear colleagues,

below you will find several links concerning the LHC first beam injection on 10 September. Note that the actual start-up time (button-pressing in the Globe) is planned for approximately 09h30.


- first beam info for media: http://lhc-first-beam.web.cern.ch/lhc-f ... lcome.html

- satellite broadcast: http://lhc-first-beam.web.cern.ch/lhc-f ... llite.html

- live webcast from http://webcast.cern.ch , starting at 8:30 am

- official info on all CERN events (in particular VIP Inauguration of 21 October) is on cern.ch/lhc2008

ATLAS Secretariat

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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Postby Notch » Tue Sep 02, 2008 1:23 pm UTC

Firnagzen wrote:Oh, and if anyone checks super symmetry and the higgs boson, you'll be eating my crowbar soon.


Crap, I did. I didn't know they were mutually exclusive! *reads up*

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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Postby dangerous » Tue Sep 02, 2008 1:49 pm UTC

Is anyone running the LHC@home?
http://lhcathome.cern.ch/lhcathome/

I downloaded it and my machine is doing some calculations for them, but can't get the pretty visuals working :(

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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Postby Random832 » Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:08 pm UTC

rho wrote:I mean, It's only a matter of time before someone starts sticking some anomalous materials in the proton beam :p


Just so long as they don't cross them...

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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Postby Nomic » Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:47 pm UTC

I'd hope it finds the Higgs Boson, cause othervice we've wasted a lot of money, seeing that it was build to ind that Boson. However, a resonance cascade that tears a hole in the fabric of space and time, allowing the demonic legions from beyond the void to come through and ravage our world would be avesome. Now, when are they actually going to start this thing up? I need time to prepare for the coming of the apocalypse.

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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Postby Matterwave1 » Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:07 pm UTC

Well, if they DON'T find the Higgs Boson, it still tells us something. Which is...Build a bigger one until you do! :D

jk

But seriously, revising the standard model for particle physics isn't such a bad prospect... at least not for those of us NOT paid to do the math...

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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Postby sgt york » Tue Sep 02, 2008 6:23 pm UTC

Higgs + headcrabs.

Firnagzen implied Higgs & SUSY are mutually exclusive. IANAPP, but I thought SUSY had Higgs included, just at higher energies. Is this incorrect, or is it just that even LHC can't get that high?

Also, rappers. (summary: A rap about the LHC, done at the LHC by people at the LHC. If you don't laugh your ass off, turn in your geek credentials).

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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:22 pm UTC

Seems like a duplicate, but I'm open to persuasion: Let me know if you see good reasons not to merge this with the other LHC thread(s).
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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Postby KingLoser » Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:28 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Seems like a duplicate, but I'm open to persuasion: Let me know if you see good reasons not to merge this with the other LHC thread(s).


A pretty convincing vote for headcrabs?

Can we keep the poll?

I hope it messes up and flashes us all back to the beginning of the universe... or course, we wont survive that, but the sit-com in my head says otherwise... doodoo.
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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Postby Firnagzen » Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:41 pm UTC

sgt york wrote:Higgs + headcrabs.

Firnagzen implied Higgs & SUSY are mutually exclusive. IANAPP, but I thought SUSY had Higgs included, just at higher energies. Is this incorrect, or is it just that even LHC can't get that high?


Actually, yes, but the implication here is that the LHC will prove the existence of the Higgs boson as the sole cause of mass in other elementary particles, as opposed to supersymmetry which predicts superpartners like squarks (the name sticks in the mind) or whatever they're called. So the way I read it, the two are mutually exclusive in this poll.

BTW, what does IANAPP stand for?
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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Postby Mr_Rose » Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:54 pm UTC

Firnagzen wrote:BTW, what does IANAPP stand for?

Almost certainly "I Am Not A Particle Physicist" - the "IANA" root is apparently now known well enough to be coupled to any branch, relying on context to define the meaning.
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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Postby btarlinian » Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:27 pm UTC

Firnagzen wrote:
sgt york wrote:Higgs + headcrabs.

Firnagzen implied Higgs & SUSY are mutually exclusive. IANAPP, but I thought SUSY had Higgs included, just at higher energies. Is this incorrect, or is it just that even LHC can't get that high?


Actually, yes, but the implication here is that the LHC will prove the existence of the Higgs boson as the sole cause of mass in other elementary particles, as opposed to supersymmetry which predicts superpartners like squarks (the name sticks in the mind) or whatever they're called. So the way I read it, the two are mutually exclusive in this poll.

BTW, what does IANAPP stand for?


IANAPP either, but from what I've read on Wikipedia, SUSY basically explains why the Higgs is light enough for us to see. It doesn't exclude the Higgs. Rather, it is an attempt to avoid excessive fine-tuning when making a prediction of the Higgs mass. (It also gives a very good candidate particle for dark matter.)

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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Postby thoughtfully » Wed Sep 03, 2008 6:41 pm UTC

sgt york wrote:Firnagzen implied Higgs & SUSY are mutually exclusive. IANAPP, but I thought SUSY had Higgs included, just at higher energies. Is this incorrect, or is it just that even LHC can't get that high?


The vibe I get is that physicists would be pretty shocked if SUSY isn't for real. They can work around not having the Higgs, but SUSY just makes a lot of physics more sane. Not only is it required to make string/brane/M theory self-consistent, provides some handy superpartner candidates for dark matter, and gets the strengths of the forces to converge nicely at the Planck Epoch, but there is actually some empirical evidence that its the Real Deal.

Also, what has SUSY got to do with particle masses?
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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Postby Firnagzen » Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:57 am UTC

*Shrugs*

Well, guess I was mistaken, then. Oh well. Still, headcrabs need to be discovered. :mrgreen:
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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Postby wst » Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:12 pm UTC

Other-
BAMF Collisions. Maybe quantum airbags?
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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Postby Felstaff » Mon Sep 08, 2008 11:37 am UTC

2 more days!

Anyone know what time the earth is planning to implode they'll switch it on? (GMT?) I know the webfeed goes online from 8:30am until 1700, but seeing as I'm at work, I can't sit there watching it all day...

Nevermind, I checked and my Flash/WMP is not up-to-date, and administrative lack-of-privilege means I can't install the necessary updates. *sniff*.


Let's just hope they don't boost the anti-mass spectrometer 110%, because that's a bit of a gamble. No-one wants a full resonance cascade. Will there be any way to see the results (i.e. will the collision create a visual spectacle)? Why couldn't they build the supercollider so that the collision happens right in the centre of the Big Brother house, because I want to see some vaporisation and human cost, preferably of D-list celebrities.
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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Postby Mr_Rose » Mon Sep 08, 2008 1:08 pm UTC

Felstaff wrote:Why couldn't they build the supercollider so that the collision happens right in the centre of the Big Brother house, because I want to see some vaporisation and human cost, preferably of D-list celebrities.

D-list? D?
What the hell did those freaks do to deserve such a promotion?

As for your other question: Probably, but there aren't any optical cameras set up in there to look. Besides. even if there was a flash, it would last somewhat less than a nanosecond IIRC.
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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Postby wst » Mon Sep 08, 2008 4:57 pm UTC

Britney Spears in a particle accelerator would be extremely funny. As long as more don't start spawning from her ashes 0.o
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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Postby miles01110 » Mon Sep 08, 2008 7:13 pm UTC

Felstaff wrote:=
Anyone know what time the earth is planning to implode they'll switch it on? (GMT?) I know the webfeed goes online from 8:30am until 1700, but seeing as I'm at work, I can't sit there watching it all day...


0930 or so local time (0730 GMT?)

Will there be any way to see the results (i.e. will the collision create a visual spectacle)?


No.

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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Postby ian » Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:23 am UTC

Felstaff wrote:2 more days!

Anyone know what time the earth is planning to implode they'll switch it on? (GMT?) I know the webfeed goes online from 8:30am until 1700, but seeing as I'm at work, I can't sit there watching it all day...

Nevermind, I checked and my Flash/WMP is not up-to-date, and administrative lack-of-privilege means I can't install the necessary updates. *sniff*.


Let's just hope they don't boost the anti-mass spectrometer 110%, because that's a bit of a gamble. No-one wants a full resonance cascade. Will there be any way to see the results (i.e. will the collision create a visual spectacle)? Why couldn't they build the supercollider so that the collision happens right in the centre of the Big Brother house, because I want to see some vaporisation and human cost, preferably of D-list celebrities.


you can put portablefirefox on a usb and drop in the extensions for flash. solved.

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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Postby Nyarlathotep » Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:34 am UTC

One hour, folks!
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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Postby Six Degrees » Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:04 am UTC

New findings swayed my predictions further towards headcrabs.

Image

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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Postby ian » Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:44 am UTC

oh, felstaff i posted a post on how you could get around the usb problem but it's disappered! guess you wouldn't have time now anyway

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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Postby Mourndark » Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:10 am UTC

Six Degrees wrote:New findings swayed my predictions further towards headcrabs.


You got there just before me!!

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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Postby tommclaughlan » Wed Sep 10, 2008 8:17 am UTC

It's ON!

Well, they've put the beam in the tube anyway.

That's *almost* a euphemism.
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