What do you think we will see at the LHC?

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What do you think we will see?

Higgs Boson
62
31%
Micro black holes
32
16%
Supersymmetry
22
11%
70
35%
16
8%

Yakk
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Minerva wrote:
miles01110 wrote:The energy in this case is more akin to an aircraft carrier moving at 30 knots.

Is that really true?

2808 bunches * 1.15 * 1011 protons in each bunch * 7 TeV = 362 MJ as the total kinetic energy carried in the circulating p beam.

A Nimitz class carrier has a displacement of close to 100,000 tons, therefore having a kinetic energy of 10.8 gigajoules at 30 knots. For a ship travelling at 30 knots to have the same kinetic energy as that beam, it would need to have a mass of 3352 tons, which is a far, far smaller ship.

Or, have I done something stupid? Corrections, of course, are welcome.

The French aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle has a light displacement of 38,000 tons.

Using google calculator (double checking is good, right?):
(38 000 short tons * ((30 knots)^2)) / 2 = 4.10552603 × 10^9 joules
2808 * 1.15 * (10^11) * (7 TeV) = 362 162 376 joules

Still off by a factor of 10.
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR

Last edited by JHVH on Fri Oct 23, 4004 BCE 6:17 pm, edited 6 times in total.

Minerva
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Did I ever mention I absolutely love Google Calculator for doing this kind of physics-type stuff?
...suffer from the computer disease that anybody who works with computers now knows about. It's a very serious disease and it interferes completely with the work. The trouble with computers is you play with them. They are so wonderful. - Richard Feynman

hagger
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Yakk wrote:
Minerva wrote:
miles01110 wrote:The energy in this case is more akin to an aircraft carrier moving at 30 knots.

Is that really true?

2808 bunches * 1.15 * 1011 protons in each bunch * 7 TeV = 362 MJ as the total kinetic energy carried in the circulating p beam.

A Nimitz class carrier has a displacement of close to 100,000 tons, therefore having a kinetic energy of 10.8 gigajoules at 30 knots. For a ship travelling at 30 knots to have the same kinetic energy as that beam, it would need to have a mass of 3352 tons, which is a far, far smaller ship.

Or, have I done something stupid? Corrections, of course, are welcome.

The French aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle has a light displacement of 38,000 tons.

Using google calculator (double checking is good, right?):
(38 000 short tons * ((30 knots)^2)) / 2 = 4.10552603 × 10^9 joules
2808 * 1.15 * (10^11) * (7 TeV) = 362 162 376 joules

Still off by a factor of 10.

I'm not sure how knots and short tons work precisely in relation to SI units, but I'd be surprised if they cancel out to joules when you use Ek = 0.5mv2. I could be wrong. Plus, according to the wiki entry for Short Ton, the slightly different Long Ton is used in the US for nautical ship weights. So possibly you have a conversion error somewhere? I'm not sure which tons a French battleship would use...

Curse these bizarre measurements! Confusion reigns! And this is probably getting a bit off-topic, but oh well.

phlip
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hagger wrote:I'm not sure how knots and short tons work precisely in relation to SI units, but I'd be surprised if they cancel out to joules when you use Ek = 0.5mv2.

Yeah, but this is Google Calculator... it does unit conversion automatically.

0.5 * 1kg * (1 m/s)^2 = 0.5 joules
0.5 * 1 ton * (1 knot)^2 = 120.044621 joules

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Minerva
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You can see why I like Google Calculator. In fact, maybe we can start a thread on all the cool sciencey things you can do with it.

...suffer from the computer disease that anybody who works with computers now knows about. It's a very serious disease and it interferes completely with the work. The trouble with computers is you play with them. They are so wonderful. - Richard Feynman

phlip
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Is it just me, or is it fitting that the only result (other than Google Calculator) from that URL is another forum with the same "aircraft carrier" comparison?

I guess the numbers are pretty LHC-specific, and "knots" sorta narrows down the contexts that you'd be mentioning the LHC in, but still...

Code: Select all

`enum ಠ_ಠ {°□°╰=1, °Д°╰, ಠ益ಠ╰};void ┻━┻︵​╰(ಠ_ಠ ⚠) {exit((int)⚠);}`
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Soralin
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is apparently 4883.19358

alexgmcm
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What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Well the question is kinda self-explanatory. I mean here we are 10 years and £3.5bn later and now we finally get to see what will happen.

Do you think we will see the Higgs Boson?. Or microscopic black holes? Or we will tear a hole in the space-time continuum and have to fight aliens from the planet Xen?

Notch
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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Headcrabs would be by far the most significant and cool outcome! =D Awesome!

/me starts sharpening crowbar.

Cryopyre
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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

I'm gonna make Barney give me my gun...
And if he decides he's giving me the crowbar *shakes fist*
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Red Hal
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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Serious answer? Micro Black Holes. I don't think we'll find the Higgs Boson. Non-serious answer: Headcrabs ftw.
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Firnagzen
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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Headcrabs are a cool bonus, though if we see micro black holes with world eating capability, the headcrabs and combine won't be the problem...

Seriously? I'm hoping for the Higgs boson. Oh, and if anyone checks super symmetry and the higgs boson, you'll be eating my crowbar soon.
Life may suck, but there's nothing else to do.

Matterwave1
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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

I think a lot of scientists are gonna cry when no Higgs Boson is found...

jk

I have no idea...I would guess OTHER. As it's a pretty safe bet we're gonna find something we didn't expect hehe.

rho
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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Why is everyone so worried about micro blackholes anyway? With a machine that big the chances of a resonance cascade failiure are pretty high. I mean, It's only a matter of time before someone starts sticking some anomalous materials in the proton beam :p

Seriously though: It'd be lovely if signs of SUSY appeared. SUSY is very pretty.
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Charlie!
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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

I would guess 42.
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miles01110
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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Here's some info for those of you interested in watching the events surrounding September 10:

Dear colleagues,

below you will find several links concerning the LHC first beam injection on 10 September. Note that the actual start-up time (button-pressing in the Globe) is planned for approximately 09h30.

- first beam info for media: http://lhc-first-beam.web.cern.ch/lhc-f ... lcome.html

- satellite broadcast: http://lhc-first-beam.web.cern.ch/lhc-f ... llite.html

- live webcast from http://webcast.cern.ch , starting at 8:30 am

- official info on all CERN events (in particular VIP Inauguration of 21 October) is on cern.ch/lhc2008

ATLAS Secretariat

Notch
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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Firnagzen wrote:Oh, and if anyone checks super symmetry and the higgs boson, you'll be eating my crowbar soon.

Crap, I did. I didn't know they were mutually exclusive! *reads up*

dangerous
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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Is anyone running the LHC@home?
http://lhcathome.cern.ch/lhcathome/

I downloaded it and my machine is doing some calculations for them, but can't get the pretty visuals working

Random832
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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

rho wrote:I mean, It's only a matter of time before someone starts sticking some anomalous materials in the proton beam :p

Just so long as they don't cross them...

Nomic
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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

I'd hope it finds the Higgs Boson, cause othervice we've wasted a lot of money, seeing that it was build to ind that Boson. However, a resonance cascade that tears a hole in the fabric of space and time, allowing the demonic legions from beyond the void to come through and ravage our world would be avesome. Now, when are they actually going to start this thing up? I need time to prepare for the coming of the apocalypse.

Matterwave1
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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Well, if they DON'T find the Higgs Boson, it still tells us something. Which is...Build a bigger one until you do!

jk

But seriously, revising the standard model for particle physics isn't such a bad prospect... at least not for those of us NOT paid to do the math...

sgt york
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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Firnagzen implied Higgs & SUSY are mutually exclusive. IANAPP, but I thought SUSY had Higgs included, just at higher energies. Is this incorrect, or is it just that even LHC can't get that high?

Also, rappers. (summary: A rap about the LHC, done at the LHC by people at the LHC. If you don't laugh your ass off, turn in your geek credentials).

gmalivuk
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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Seems like a duplicate, but I'm open to persuasion: Let me know if you see good reasons not to merge this with the other LHC thread(s).
Unless stated otherwise, I do not care whether a statement, by itself, constitutes a persuasive political argument. I care whether it's true.
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KingLoser
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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

gmalivuk wrote:Seems like a duplicate, but I'm open to persuasion: Let me know if you see good reasons not to merge this with the other LHC thread(s).

A pretty convincing vote for headcrabs?

Can we keep the poll?

I hope it messes up and flashes us all back to the beginning of the universe... or course, we wont survive that, but the sit-com in my head says otherwise... doodoo.
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Firnagzen
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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Firnagzen implied Higgs & SUSY are mutually exclusive. IANAPP, but I thought SUSY had Higgs included, just at higher energies. Is this incorrect, or is it just that even LHC can't get that high?

Actually, yes, but the implication here is that the LHC will prove the existence of the Higgs boson as the sole cause of mass in other elementary particles, as opposed to supersymmetry which predicts superpartners like squarks (the name sticks in the mind) or whatever they're called. So the way I read it, the two are mutually exclusive in this poll.

BTW, what does IANAPP stand for?
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Mr_Rose
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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Firnagzen wrote:BTW, what does IANAPP stand for?

Almost certainly "I Am Not A Particle Physicist" - the "IANA" root is apparently now known well enough to be coupled to any branch, relying on context to define the meaning.
Microevolution is a term — when used by creationists — that is the evolutionary equivalent of the belief that the mechanism you use to walk from your bedroom to the kitchen is insufficient to get you from New York to Los Angeles.

btarlinian
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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Firnagzen wrote:

Firnagzen implied Higgs & SUSY are mutually exclusive. IANAPP, but I thought SUSY had Higgs included, just at higher energies. Is this incorrect, or is it just that even LHC can't get that high?

Actually, yes, but the implication here is that the LHC will prove the existence of the Higgs boson as the sole cause of mass in other elementary particles, as opposed to supersymmetry which predicts superpartners like squarks (the name sticks in the mind) or whatever they're called. So the way I read it, the two are mutually exclusive in this poll.

BTW, what does IANAPP stand for?

IANAPP either, but from what I've read on Wikipedia, SUSY basically explains why the Higgs is light enough for us to see. It doesn't exclude the Higgs. Rather, it is an attempt to avoid excessive fine-tuning when making a prediction of the Higgs mass. (It also gives a very good candidate particle for dark matter.)

thoughtfully
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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

sgt york wrote:Firnagzen implied Higgs & SUSY are mutually exclusive. IANAPP, but I thought SUSY had Higgs included, just at higher energies. Is this incorrect, or is it just that even LHC can't get that high?

The vibe I get is that physicists would be pretty shocked if SUSY isn't for real. They can work around not having the Higgs, but SUSY just makes a lot of physics more sane. Not only is it required to make string/brane/M theory self-consistent, provides some handy superpartner candidates for dark matter, and gets the strengths of the forces to converge nicely at the Planck Epoch, but there is actually some empirical evidence that its the Real Deal.

Also, what has SUSY got to do with particle masses?

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Firnagzen
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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

*Shrugs*

Well, guess I was mistaken, then. Oh well. Still, headcrabs need to be discovered.
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wst
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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Other-
BAMF Collisions. Maybe quantum airbags?
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Felstaff
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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

2 more days!

Anyone know what time the earth is planning to implode they'll switch it on? (GMT?) I know the webfeed goes online from 8:30am until 1700, but seeing as I'm at work, I can't sit there watching it all day...

Nevermind, I checked and my Flash/WMP is not up-to-date, and administrative lack-of-privilege means I can't install the necessary updates. *sniff*.

Let's just hope they don't boost the anti-mass spectrometer 110%, because that's a bit of a gamble. No-one wants a full resonance cascade. Will there be any way to see the results (i.e. will the collision create a visual spectacle)? Why couldn't they build the supercollider so that the collision happens right in the centre of the Big Brother house, because I want to see some vaporisation and human cost, preferably of D-list celebrities.
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Mr_Rose
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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Felstaff wrote:Why couldn't they build the supercollider so that the collision happens right in the centre of the Big Brother house, because I want to see some vaporisation and human cost, preferably of D-list celebrities.

D-list? D?
What the hell did those freaks do to deserve such a promotion?

As for your other question: Probably, but there aren't any optical cameras set up in there to look. Besides. even if there was a flash, it would last somewhat less than a nanosecond IIRC.
Microevolution is a term — when used by creationists — that is the evolutionary equivalent of the belief that the mechanism you use to walk from your bedroom to the kitchen is insufficient to get you from New York to Los Angeles.

wst
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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Britney Spears in a particle accelerator would be extremely funny. As long as more don't start spawning from her ashes 0.o
Anything I said pre-2014 that you want to quote me on, just run it past me to check I still agree with myself.

miles01110
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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Felstaff wrote:=
Anyone know what time the earth is planning to implode they'll switch it on? (GMT?) I know the webfeed goes online from 8:30am until 1700, but seeing as I'm at work, I can't sit there watching it all day...

0930 or so local time (0730 GMT?)

Will there be any way to see the results (i.e. will the collision create a visual spectacle)?

No.

ian
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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Felstaff wrote:2 more days!

Anyone know what time the earth is planning to implode they'll switch it on? (GMT?) I know the webfeed goes online from 8:30am until 1700, but seeing as I'm at work, I can't sit there watching it all day...

Nevermind, I checked and my Flash/WMP is not up-to-date, and administrative lack-of-privilege means I can't install the necessary updates. *sniff*.

Let's just hope they don't boost the anti-mass spectrometer 110%, because that's a bit of a gamble. No-one wants a full resonance cascade. Will there be any way to see the results (i.e. will the collision create a visual spectacle)? Why couldn't they build the supercollider so that the collision happens right in the centre of the Big Brother house, because I want to see some vaporisation and human cost, preferably of D-list celebrities.

you can put portablefirefox on a usb and drop in the extensions for flash. solved.

Nyarlathotep
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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

One hour, folks!
'Gehȳrst þū, sǣlida, hwæt þis folc segeð?
hī willað ēow tō gafole gāras syllan,
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Six Degrees
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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

New findings swayed my predictions further towards headcrabs.

ian
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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

oh, felstaff i posted a post on how you could get around the usb problem but it's disappered! guess you wouldn't have time now anyway

Mourndark
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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

Six Degrees wrote:New findings swayed my predictions further towards headcrabs.

You got there just before me!!

tommclaughlan
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Re: What do you think we will see at the LHC?

It's ON!

Well, they've put the beam in the tube anyway.

That's *almost* a euphemism.