libertarianism, socialism and other wonderful but clearly off-topic matters

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Thesh
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby Thesh » Thu May 03, 2018 6:12 pm UTC

I agree, capitalism is proven to fail, and the only justifications are a bunch of silly thought experiments that simply do not match reality.
Summum ius, summa iniuria.

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CorruptUser
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby CorruptUser » Thu May 03, 2018 6:15 pm UTC

...which is why I advocate social democracy, the system proven to work best

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Thesh
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby Thesh » Thu May 03, 2018 6:22 pm UTC

Define "work". Because there are a lot of impoverished people who lack opportunity who would disagree. It seems to only work in Western countries that have a large bargaining position and control over foreign economic resources.
Summum ius, summa iniuria.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu May 03, 2018 6:37 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:I agree, capitalism is proven to fail, and the only justifications are a bunch of silly thought experiments that simply do not match reality.


How so? Capitalism is rampant in pretty much any developed society.

I mean, sure, lots of other things have been tried, and pretty much no economy is purely any one ideology, but capitalism is really strongly represented among any list of economies you can call successful. Sure, there are other factors to success. Happening to have rich resources is handy, for instance. But, all else being equal, if you're picking a winning system for a modern economy, you're probably going to pick more capitalism over socialism, and more fiat currency over barter.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby flicky1991 » Thu May 03, 2018 6:39 pm UTC

THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE THE HUMOROUS NEWS THREAD
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu May 03, 2018 6:40 pm UTC

...fair point. We perhaps ought to ask to have the last few pages split out into a Socialism: The Arguing thread or something. 'sgotten far from humor.

elasto
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby elasto » Thu May 03, 2018 6:41 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:No, the goal of investment is not to improve efficiency. The goal of investment in a for-profit business is to make profits, and profits do not represent efficiency, they represent the bargaining power difference between producers and the workers and consumers, and indicate the markets are not efficient.

You seem to be arguing from ideology and ignoring the real world. In the real world, businesses invest to improve efficiency all the time. Do you seriously want me to point out all the examples of businesses today investing to improve efficiency? Yes, they invest in anti-competitive practices like supporting laws that raise barriers to entry and acquisitions intent on forming oligopolies, but they also build invest in robotics and JIT workflows and all the other things that make stuff you shop for cheaper.

The phone you hold in your hand is more powerful than the computer that landed men on the moon. Moore's law is the poster-child for how chip manufacturers invest year after year, decade after decade making electronics cheaper and better.

This is all enabled by profits - and the belief that if you don't reinvest your profits to make your product and service better year-on-year, someone else will sweep in and take your place.

To which we have to democratically decide how much people deserve, and we have decided all around the world, even in Scandinavia, that some people deserve to be in poverty.

Unless you are living on the streets due to mental illness or such, the poorest person in Scandinavia today lives like a feudal lord of a thousand years ago. That's the progress that capitalism brings.

Your argument here rests on the assumption that a law cannot define a worker cooperative, and that absentee ownership must be legal.

Well, yes. Is there any government ever who managed to lock down the loopholes without being a totalitarian police state? (Which, believe it or not, is worse even than capitalism...)

In China today, there are limits on how many properties an individual can own. There are also limits on how often property can be sold. You know what happens? People buy properties in the names of family members. People enter private agreements to sell property by extra-legal routes.

Sorry, you have to factor in that people will game the system.
So now you apparently want me to spend years dissecting everything about market socialism when you weren't even aware of the concept of market socialism until this debate. Why don't you read up on alternative methods of ownership that we know of before declaring capitalism to be the best system we know?

Obviously I was aware of the concept, I just didn't know that name for it.

You are the one singing the praises of market socialism; The onus is on you to try to destroy it so that, when you fail, you can enter debate with confidence.

I am absolutely aware of the downfalls of capitalism - that's why I mock it as a terrible economic model, and will spend all day bemoaning its failings if you wish. I just see worse failings elsewhere, which is why the comparison with Democracy is apt.

Personally I await a post-scarcity society where benevolent AI rule the world with fairness and justice - but recognise the chances of that coming about are so close to zero as to make no odds...

Tyndymyr wrote:...fair point. We perhaps ought to ask to have the last few pages split out into a Socialism: The Arguing thread or something. 'sgotten far from humor.

I have long since assumed that will occur :p

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Thesh
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby Thesh » Thu May 03, 2018 6:59 pm UTC

Ah, yes, the space program and computers and internet developed by government and universities, that capitalists moved in on as soon as they were fully developed and a market existed to profit off of it. Capitalism, isn't it great!

You're arguing the benefits of private property due to the investments on the assumption that we would do absolutely nothing if it weren't for capitalists.
Summum ius, summa iniuria.

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LaserGuy
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby LaserGuy » Thu May 03, 2018 8:07 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Err, how is listing the biggest names in tech without skipping over any inconvenient contradictions "cherry picking"?

My point is that the companies staffed predominantly with highly educated workers are making more money per worker than the ones staffed predominantly by flunkouts.

You know, here, I just googled the list of companies by profit per employee, this was the first thing I found Notice anything in common about those companies? They tend to be companies that have extremely high educated workers.


Those numbers are very deceptive because they don't include any of the people who actually make their physical products. Apple, for example, has subcontracted the production of their consumer products, iPhones and whatnot, to other companies that pay extremely low wages. If you include all of the people who are actually making their products, and not just the people making software or doing R&D within the United States, Apple has well over 1 million employees. Their real profit per employee is actually a factor of 10 lower than what is being claimed here.

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby gmalivuk » Thu May 03, 2018 9:23 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:Their real profit per employee is actually a factor of 10 lower than what is being claimed here.

But of course if you then put that number in terms of the wages those employees make, I suspect the number goes quite far in the other direction (when compared to the version that ignores the actual people who make the products all that profit comes from).

elasto wrote:I have long since assumed that will occur :p
The more you post in here about it, the bigger pain in the ass it is to split all those posts out into a new thread. If you want to keep discussing it, better to just start a new thread your damn self and then maybe later a mod will feel generous and merge the off-topic posts from here into that thread.

Since we're talking about capitalism, how about I do the split if there's enough monetary profit in it for me, and if there's not I just boneyard the entire mess?
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CorruptUser
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby CorruptUser » Thu May 03, 2018 9:36 pm UTC

I dont have any dogecoin to offer you, but if I did... hey why doesn't this forum have a dogecoin tipping thing?

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby addams » Fri May 04, 2018 12:42 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:Their real profit per employee is actually a factor of 10 lower than what is being claimed here.

But of course if you then put that number in terms of the wages those employees make, I suspect the number goes quite far in the other direction (when compared to the version that ignores the actual people who make the products all that profit comes from).

elasto wrote:I have long since assumed that will occur :p
The more you post in here about it, the bigger pain in the ass it is to split all those posts out into a new thread. If you want to keep discussing it, better to just start a new thread your damn self and then maybe later a mod will feel generous and merge the off-topic posts from here into that thread.

Since we're talking about capitalism, how about I do the split if there's enough monetary profit in it for me, and if there's not I just boneyard the entire mess?
(Giggle)
There.

This Thread is suddenly funny, again.
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orthogon
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby orthogon » Fri May 04, 2018 8:24 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:I dont have any dogecoin to offer you, but if I did... hey why doesn't this forum have a dogecoin tipping thing?

1. Posters' cooperative: anyone can do the split, and we vote on whether we agree.
2. Benevolent dictatorship: power is concentrated in the hands of a few mods who act always fairly and in our best interests (the current model)
3. Free-market capitalism / gig economy: forumite requests the split; mods tender bids to do the work; cheapest bidder wins.
4. Anarchy: all forumites have full admin access
5. Representative democracy: mods come up for re-election regularly. They promise swift thread-splitting, fair moderation and to repeal Godwin's Law.
6. Totalitarian police state: there is only one thread entitled "to the glory of xkcd". When you click "reply", instead of a free-text box, there's a drop-down with a choice of ten stirring statements of praise.

Etc., etc.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Soupspoon
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby Soupspoon » Fri May 04, 2018 1:23 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:They promise swift thread-splitting, fair moderation and to repeal Godwin's Law.

You know who else would have repealed Godwin's law, don't ya..?

Stalin!

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CorruptUser
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby CorruptUser » Fri May 04, 2018 4:56 pm UTC

Theocracy; we all worship the one true Mod, who hath ordained a priest class to carry out the wishes of the one true Mod. We know that our priests correctly interpret the forum rules of the one true Mod because they said they do, and they said they would never lie so they must be telling the truth.

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Zamfir
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby Zamfir » Fri May 04, 2018 5:24 pm UTC

I don't think davean is really a mod ,though.

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CorruptUser
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby CorruptUser » Fri May 04, 2018 5:54 pm UTC

Let me consult the forum rules on how we shall smite the nonbeliever.

It says here that, hmm, Thou shalt stoneth ye blasphephemer. Alright, anyone got any weed so we can get Zamfir stoned?

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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby ucim » Fri May 04, 2018 5:59 pm UTC

Well, my garden is full of weeds, and full of stones. But alas, I am also heathen.

Quantum Mechanic: Every post is split into its own 12 (13?) dimensional space, and a random post is presented whenever a user collides with the forum. By examining the fragments of the collision, we can divine the contents of the other post that was made at the same time as the original post.

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Soupspoon
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Re: In other news... (humorous news items)

Postby Soupspoon » Fri May 04, 2018 6:08 pm UTC

ucim wrote:Well, my garden is full of weeds, and full of stones. But alas, I am also heathen.

My garden is full of heather and gorse, for it is heathen.


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