Violence

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My Uncivilized God
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Violence

Postby My Uncivilized God » Mon Dec 24, 2007 4:41 am UTC

This isn't really a broad, conceptual discussion. More of a specific, personal thing that I thought I'd like to discuss with anyone (or everyone, depends).

Recently, I've had a guy threatening me, cursing me, etc. He says he wants to fight, and he showed up at my place of employment yesterday, screaming at me from a car. I told him I was on the clock, and I wasn't going to fight him while I was supposed to be working. So he told me (I'm quoting) "go clock out, motherfucker, so I can kick your ass." So I left work an hour early, put my jacket, boxcutter, gloves etc. in my vehicle and went to talk with him. At this point he told me to name a time and place rather than fight in a parking lot, but I don't go anywhere except home and work. So I told him to give me a place because I couldn't think of one.

He said "I'll catch you on the flip side"

Which sounds dramatic, but is essentially meaningless. By the way, he's after me because he was rude to a girl I know, and I brought it to his attention. I've never been in a major fight, so I'm interested to see how I'll react under stress. I doubt he's going to press the issue though, unless he gets drunk or something.

Have any of you ever been in a serious fight? What are you're impressions/beliefs/reactions to violence on a one-on-one level?


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Re: Violence

Postby Maurog » Mon Dec 24, 2007 4:46 am UTC

Never been in a fight, but for some reason I know that if after making a fist you bring the folded middle finger a bit forward and lock it between its two neighbours, your punch is supposed to have more force. Don't even know if it works...

Personally, I don't believe in solving problems with violence, unless there is a serious breach of etiquette by someone who is not affected by words.
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Re: Violence

Postby Lord Bob » Mon Dec 24, 2007 4:56 am UTC

Merry Christmas indeed. My thoughts are that you should put in an earnest effort to avoid a fight, which you have done by the sounds of it. Violence usually isn't the way. Catch him off guard by offering to buy him a drink. See what happens. Then kick some back! Just kidding.
In some cases, however, it can't be avoided. I agree, somewhat, with the "fighting is always wrong" mentality, but there are some things worth fighting for. It's up to you to decide what those things are. There's also a danger factor. What's the worst that could happen? Is he going to pull a knife? Is he going to bring his drunk buddies? If you win, are you going to get charged with assault?
If he isn't going to press the issue, then it sounds like you don't really need to worry. With or without my bad advice, I hope it works out for you.
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My Uncivilized God
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Re: Violence

Postby My Uncivilized God » Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:25 am UTC

In my book, there is an adequate reason for a fight. He called a girl I like (and am now dating) a slut, more than once, and then asked her to go to a club with him some night and get drunk. I was walking her to her car at the time.

Maybe he didn't mean it the way it came out, but he seems to consider her a hooker that any guy can pay for with beer. Which is very, very insulting, as far as I'm concerned.

Regardless of who she is and what her sexual habits are, it's rude.
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Re: Violence

Postby Barbie » Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:41 am UTC

My Uncivilized God wrote:He called a girl I like (and am now dating) a slut, more than once, and then asked her to go to a club with him some night and get drunk.

Why do you care what he thinks and says? Rudeness only affects you as much as you let it. You're letting it affect you to the point that you're risking your physical well-being. What are you hoping to achieve here?
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Nullcline
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Re: Violence

Postby Nullcline » Mon Dec 24, 2007 6:58 am UTC

Wait, he called your girlfriend a slut to her face while you were there and you didn't do anything? Coward. There is nothing wrong with beating the crap out of people who have no manners, except that you might scrape your knee.
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Adalwolf
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Re: Violence

Postby Adalwolf » Mon Dec 24, 2007 7:12 am UTC

My Uncivilized God wrote:This isn't really a broad, conceptual discussion. More of a specific, personal thing that I thought I'd like to discuss with anyone (or everyone, depends).

Recently, I've had a guy threatening me, cursing me, etc. He says he wants to fight, and he showed up at my place of employment yesterday, screaming at me from a car. I told him I was on the clock, and I wasn't going to fight him while I was supposed to be working. So he told me (I'm quoting) "go clock out, motherfucker, so I can kick your ass." So I left work an hour early, put my jacket, boxcutter, gloves etc. in my vehicle and went to talk with him. At this point he told me to name a time and place rather than fight in a parking lot, but I don't go anywhere except home and work. So I told him to give me a place because I couldn't think of one.

He said "I'll catch you on the flip side"

Which sounds dramatic, but is essentially meaningless. By the way, he's after me because he was rude to a girl I know, and I brought it to his attention. I've never been in a major fight, so I'm interested to see how I'll react under stress. I doubt he's going to press the issue though, unless he gets drunk or something.

Have any of you ever been in a serious fight? What are you're impressions/beliefs/reactions to violence on a one-on-one level?


Merry Christmas.


If he says it again kick his obnoxious ass. A man NEVER insults a woman that way (unless she cheated on him...)!
Prove your manhood and your status by kicking his ass. You'll gain a reputation, and maybe a little bit of fear to potential opponents-which is nice to have.

I haven't been in a fight for several years, and that was over something stupid, but I won, and the guy didn't bother me again, so the problem was solved.

Defend your woman, man. If you let the insults continue it dishonors you, and makes you look weak.
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Re: Violence

Postby Marbas » Mon Dec 24, 2007 7:44 am UTC

If he says it again kick his obnoxious ass. A man NEVER insults a woman that way (unless she cheated on him...)!
Prove your manhood and your status by kicking his ass. You'll gain a reputation, and maybe a little bit of fear to potential opponents-which is nice to have.


Defend your woman, man. If you let the insults continue it dishonors you, and makes you look weak.


I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that it was the 1500s again.
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Re: Violence

Postby Ari » Mon Dec 24, 2007 7:48 am UTC

My Uncivilized God wrote:In my book, there is an adequate reason for a fight. He called a girl I like (and am now dating) a slut, more than once, and then asked her to go to a club with him some night and get drunk. I was walking her to her car at the time.

Maybe he didn't mean it the way it came out, but he seems to consider her a hooker that any guy can pay for with beer. Which is very, very insulting, as far as I'm concerned.

Regardless of who she is and what her sexual habits are, it's rude.


/sigh...

It's the twenty-first century, mothertruckers. You don't need to go and beat up every idiot who insults your girl. Unless he makes the fight unavoidable, don't legitimise his behaviour by responding to it with violence. Especially don't imply that the winner will be the bigger man, because I don't care how cocky defending your girlfriend makes you feel, there's the very real possibility when getting into any fight that the other dude will surprise you and smash your face in. You only ever win fights because your opponent is stupider than you, and you can never be sure enough on that front.

Kick his ass with words first. Seriously, express your disgust, then ignore him if at all possible. Unless your girl is as worthless as this idiot is implying, she won't think any less of you.

The only time to resort to violence is when you can see someone is going to make trouble- and in that kind of situation, you only reason you even give in to violence is so that you can throw the first punch and hopefully seize the advantage, seeing violence is going to catch up with you anyway.
Last edited by Ari on Mon Dec 24, 2007 7:50 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Violence

Postby Barbie » Mon Dec 24, 2007 7:50 am UTC

Nullcline wrote:There is nothing wrong with beating the crap out of people who have no manners, except that you might scrape your knee.

What for? What are you hoping to gain? Being physically stronger or more skilled than someone else doesn't make you right. It does show that you do not have the cognitive strength to overcome your evolutionary instincts. Avoiding a fight is not cowardly. It is acting as a rational human instead of as an instinctual animal.

If you are actually concerned with changing his behaviour, make it clear that what he says has absolutely no affect on you. Meet his words with subtle disapproval, but mostly boredom. People have a psychological need to feel like they are making an impact on the world, and if you fight him you delight him with the knowledge that he has impacted you enough to expend that kind of energy on him. It doesn't matter if he loses the fight, if you throw a punch, he has already won.
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Re: Violence

Postby Adalwolf » Mon Dec 24, 2007 7:53 am UTC

Ari wrote:
My Uncivilized God wrote:In my book, there is an adequate reason for a fight. He called a girl I like (and am now dating) a slut, more than once, and then asked her to go to a club with him some night and get drunk. I was walking her to her car at the time.

Maybe he didn't mean it the way it came out, but he seems to consider her a hooker that any guy can pay for with beer. Which is very, very insulting, as far as I'm concerned.

Regardless of who she is and what her sexual habits are, it's rude.


/sigh...

It's the twenty-first century, mothertruckers. You don't need to go and beat up every idiot who insults your girl. Unless he makes the fight unavoidable, don't legitimise his behaviour by responding to it with violence. Especially don't imply that the winner will be the bigger man, because I don't care how cocky defending your girlfriend makes you feel, there's the very real possibility when getting into any fight that the other dude will surprise you and smash your face in. You only ever win fights because your opponent is stupider than you, and you can never be sure enough on that front.

Kick his ass with words first. Seriously, express your disgust, then ignore him if at all possible. Unless your girl is as worthless as this idiot is implying, she won't think any less of you.

The only time to resort to violence is when you can see someone is going to make trouble- and in that kind of situation, you only reason you even give in to violence is so that you can throw the first punch and hopefully seize the advantage, seeing violence is going to catch up with you anyway.[/quote]

I agree you don't have to beat down everyone who makes nasty comments, but if some asshole his saying this to your girl's face, or to other folks at the bar/party/wherever, or even to your face, you need to yell at him first and foremost. Tell him to that he better shut his mouth. If he doesn't, beat his ass. Simple as that.
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Re: Violence

Postby Adalwolf » Mon Dec 24, 2007 7:58 am UTC

Barbie wrote:
Nullcline wrote:There is nothing wrong with beating the crap out of people who have no manners, except that you might scrape your knee.

What for? What are you hoping to gain? Being physically stronger or more skilled than someone else doesn't make you right. It does show that you do not have the cognitive strength to overcome your evolutionary instincts. Avoiding a fight is not cowardly. It is acting as a rational human instead of as an instinctual animal.

If you are actually concerned with changing his behaviour, make it clear that what he says has absolutely no affect on you. Meet his words with subtle disapproval, but mostly boredom. People have a psychological need to feel like they are making an impact on the world, and if you fight him you delight him with the knowledge that he has impacted you enough to expend that kind of energy on him. It doesn't matter if he loses the fight, if you throw a punch, he has already won.


What a bunch of crap. You beat his ass, he'll know you are displeased, and that he crossed the line.

Now, resorting to fighting should not be the first choice, but if the line is crossed, you need to be ready to fight. I'd say insulting your girlfriend is stepping over that line (if someone continues after a warning or two to stop).
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Re: Violence

Postby Ari » Mon Dec 24, 2007 8:14 am UTC

Adalwolf wrote:I agree you don't have to beat down everyone who makes nasty comments, but if some asshole his saying this to your girl's face, or to other folks at the bar/party/wherever, or even to your face, you need to yell at him first and foremost. Tell him to that he better shut his mouth. If he doesn't, beat his ass. Simple as that.


He better hope his girlfriend actually appreciates said beating. She might want to solve her own problems, you know. Men don't have to do everything- again, welcome to the twenty-first century! If feminists can decide to change their gender roles, we should be open to a little self-examination too.

At least we largely agree on this until...

Adalwolf wrote:What a bunch of crap. You beat his ass, he'll know you are displeased, and that he crossed the line.

Now, resorting to fighting should not be the first choice, but if the line is crossed, you need to be ready to fight. I'd say insulting your girlfriend is stepping over that line (if someone continues after a warning or two to stop).


Sure, he'll know you're displeased, but you'll have reduced yourself to his level and to some degree have legitimised his behaviour. The best solution is to make him look irrelevant if at all possible. This works especially well if you have plenty of good friends on your side.

But it's not crap. Resorting to violence doesn't prove anything except that you're a nasty, misanthropic bastard who likes to knock out teeth. While talk is cheap, throwing punches is stupid. As far as I'm concerned, "real men" (lol?) avoid violence until the last moment where it can be used unpredictably.
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Re: Violence

Postby Nullcline » Mon Dec 24, 2007 8:20 am UTC

Marbas wrote:I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that it was the 1500s again.
It isn't. Now, we have the internet to cry to whenever anything upsetting happens.

Barbie wrote:What for? What are you hoping to gain? Being physically stronger or more skilled than someone else doesn't make you right. Avoiding a fight is not cowardly. It is acting as a rational human instead of as an instinctual animal.

You're right about that first part. Right and wrong are just words. Which "evolutionary insctincts" are you referring to? No one is suggesting that the OP go around and sucker punch anyone who looks at him cross-ways, but here he would simply be acting in defense of allies. One less capable of unarmed self-defense at that.

Barbie wrote:If you are actually concerned with changing his behaviour, make it clear that what he says has absolutely no affect on you. Meet his words with subtle disapproval, but mostly boredom. People have a psychological need to feel like they are making an impact on the world, and if you fight him you delight him with the knowledge that he has impacted you enough to expend that kind of energy on him.

Judging from the OP, this guy doesn't just have a need to feel like he impacts the world. He's attracted to the OP's girlfriend, and in pursuing her, has stepped over the line. No amount of ear and eye covering is going to slow this guy's libido.

Barbie wrote:It does show that you do not have the cognitive strength to overcome your evolutionary instincts.
It doesn't matter if he loses the fight, if you throw a punch, he has already won.

I don't remember why I took these out.....Oh right, they're both complete nonsense.

Ari wrote:There's the very real possibility when getting into any fight that the other dude will surprise you and smash your face in.

Have you ever had your face smashed in? Just curious. I'm not suggesting that the OP fight fair.

I have a good idea, though. Instead of fighting this guy, sit down and sign a treaty with him. Give him Tues. and Thurs. to insult the girlfriend, and you can treat her with dignity and respect for the rest of the week. Make sure that word of any insults, rapes and the like never reach your ears. Seriously though, those violent instincts are there for a fucking reason. Use them.

And just curious, how old is the OP?

EDIT:
Ari wrote:He better hope his girlfriend actually appreciates said beating. She might want to solve her own problems, you know. Men don't have to do everything- again, welcome to the twenty-first century! If feminists can decide to change their gender roles, we should be open to a little self-examination too.

This is really the point. Said girl can change her gender role if she like, but it doesn't rearrange the muscles in the mid-back.
Last edited by Nullcline on Mon Dec 24, 2007 8:34 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Violence

Postby Adalwolf » Mon Dec 24, 2007 8:28 am UTC

Ari wrote:
Adalwolf wrote:I agree you don't have to beat down everyone who makes nasty comments, but if some asshole his saying this to your girl's face, or to other folks at the bar/party/wherever, or even to your face, you need to yell at him first and foremost. Tell him to that he better shut his mouth. If he doesn't, beat his ass. Simple as that.


He better hope his girlfriend actually appreciates said beating. She might want to solve her own problems, you know. Men don't have to do everything- again, welcome to the twenty-first century! If feminists can decide to change their gender roles, we should be open to a little self-examination too.

At least we largely agree on this until...

I don't give a damn if the girl would want me to stay out of it. It is a man's duty to defend his girlfriend/wife and other loved ones. It is our role, and one that should be embraced, not shunned. We do not need to change this role.

Adalwolf wrote:What a bunch of crap. You beat his ass, he'll know you are displeased, and that he crossed the line.

Now, resorting to fighting should not be the first choice, but if the line is crossed, you need to be ready to fight. I'd say insulting your girlfriend is stepping over that line (if someone continues after a warning or two to stop).


Sure, he'll know you're displeased, but you'll have reduced yourself to his level and to some degree have legitimised his behaviour. The best solution is to make him look irrelevant if at all possible. This works especially well if you have plenty of good friends on your side.

But it's not crap. Resorting to violence doesn't prove anything except that you're a nasty, misanthropic bastard who likes to knock out teeth. While talk is cheap, throwing punches is stupid. As far as I'm concerned, "real men" (lol?) avoid violence until the last moment where it can be used unpredictably.[/quote]

You wouldn't reduce yourself at all. You will have put a punk in his place!
Like I've said, violence should not be the first choice, but should not be shunned or viewed as stupid. It has been a manly pursuit since the dawn of time, and IS a legitimate way of settling heated disputes, no matter how hard outside society is trying to effeminate men.

Also, its hardly misanthropic if you are defending yourself or loved ones persons, or honor.
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Re: Violence

Postby Ari » Mon Dec 24, 2007 8:49 am UTC

Nullcline wrote:Have you ever had your face smashed in? Just curious. I'm not suggesting that the OP fight fair.

I have a good idea, though. Instead of fighting this guy, sit down and sign a treaty with him. Give him Tues. and Thurs. to insult the girlfriend, and you can treat her with dignity and respect for the rest of the week. Make sure that word of any insults, rapes and the like never reach your ears. Seriously though, those violent instincts are there for a fucking reason. Use them.

And just curious, how old is the OP?


I am most certainly not suggesting he fight fair, I'm suggesting he wait until it's necessary to fight, and not provoke a fight otherwise. If it's looking like he has to fight, he should strike first, preferably engaging in deception or surprise to gain an advantage, and beat the crap out of the other guy, or at least disorient him and get the hell out of there.

I'm just saying fighting for the sake of it is dumb. It endangers you, it hurts other people, and quite frankly, not as many people like it as you'd think.

And yes, I have been in fights- most of which have either consisted of me being ambushed and/or outnumbered, or me doing something stupid to someone who was even more stupidly unprepared, like actually physically lifting someone up and throwing them. Certainly not the same as fist fights, but then again, I'm just very good at not provoking people, because I'm just that submissive.

I don't suggest anyone follow my example in that sense if they don't want to, but thanks to the wonderful magic of societal progress, all he has to pay if he does choose so is a little social grief.

Nullcline wrote:This is really the point. Said girl can change her gender role if she like, but it doesn't rearrange the muscles in the mid-back.


It's said girl's responsibility to have enough backup if she's going to stand up to people she doesn't feel confident of beating physically. With some good technique she can probably quite easily disorient or embarrass most drunken idiots, but I do agree that women need to be a little more prepared in this regard than men do due to us generally having a size advantage.

Adalwolf wrote:I don't give a damn if the girl would want me to stay out of it. It is a man's duty to defend his girlfriend/wife and other loved ones. It is our role, and one that should be embraced, not shunned. We do not need to change this role.


You don't see the need. That's fine. Don't claim to make value-judgements for the whole gender please, we don't elect officials to decide the rules of mandom, and I'd rather it stayed that way.

Adalwolf wrote:You wouldn't reduce yourself at all. You will have put a punk in his place!
Like I've said, violence should not be the first choice, but should not be shunned or viewed as stupid. It has been a manly pursuit since the dawn of time, and IS a legitimate way of settling heated disputes, no matter how hard outside society is trying to effeminate men.

Also, its hardly misanthropic if you are defending yourself or loved ones persons, or honor.


Well, I certainly agree with you that defending the safety of your loved ones, or even friends, is hardly misanthropic. But having a go at someone for "challenging your honour" is stupid. That's what words are for, and they are much better weapons to defend your honour than violence whenever your safety and that of your loved ones is not threatened. :)

Now, that said, I'm not preaching that you should "effeminate" yourself (Hi? You just challenged the honour of about 50% of the people you know. Would you like to beat yourself up now?) if you don't want to. Just that you shouldn't act like it's never an option for anyone if you do it intelligently.
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Re: Violence

Postby ThisIsVictor » Mon Dec 24, 2007 8:59 am UTC

My advice to the original poster: Walk away. Just leave the asshole alone, he isn't worth your time. He obviously wants a fight, but why should you give him a fight? Why give him what he wants? It's a bigger insult to just simply ignore him. If he wins the fight he will feel vindicated but if you ignore him he doesn't get that joy.

Also someone mentioned about about danger of injury, death or lawsuits. All good reasons go avoid a fight.

Adalwolf, have you ever been in a fight? Have you ever done what you're suggesting? Maybe more importantly, have you ever lost a fight? (If this is too personal, feel free not to answer.)

Beating someone in a fight will not make them admit you are right. You can not change someone mind with your fists. Maybe you can force them to agree with you, but that's not going to stop them from getting some buddies, a gun and come looking for revenge.

I guess my big point here is: Is honor (yours or someone else's) worth the very real risk of death? I say no.

--Victor

(Also, every single woman I have ever known would kick my ass if I tried to fight for their honor. I think the vast majority of woman think men fighting for them is just plain stupid.)

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Re: Violence

Postby Adalwolf » Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:06 am UTC

ThisIsVictor wrote:My advice to the original poster: Walk away. Just leave the asshole alone, he isn't worth your time. He obviously wants a fight, but why should you give him a fight? Why give him what he wants? It's a bigger insult to just simply ignore him. If he wins the fight he will feel vindicated but if you ignore him he doesn't get that joy.

Also someone mentioned about about danger of injury, death or lawsuits. All good reasons go avoid a fight.

Adalwolf, have you ever been in a fight? Have you ever done what you're suggesting? Maybe more importantly, have you ever lost a fight? (If this is too personal, feel free not to answer.)

Beating someone in a fight will not make them admit you are right. You can not change someone mind with your fists. Maybe you can force them to agree with you, but that's not going to stop them from getting some buddies, a gun and come looking for revenge.

I guess my big point here is: Is honor (yours or someone else's) worth the very real risk of death? I say no.

--Victor

(Also, every single woman I have ever known would kick my ass if I tried to fight for their honor. I think the vast majority of woman think men fighting for them is just plain stupid.)


Yes I have been in fights! Like I said, the most recent one was several year ago. Some of the fights were over stupid things, and in others I was defending people I cared for. And no, I have never lost a fight fight. I've had several draws where the fight was broken up, but I've never lost. I have, however, gotten injured in fights. Busted lips, black eyes, bruises, sore knuckles, etc. Nothing major, however.

And yes, I would, and have, fought for my honor, and the honor of people I care for. There was no risk of death, however, as they were fist fights.
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Re: Violence

Postby Nullcline » Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:30 am UTC

Ari wrote:
I am most certainly not suggesting he fight fair, I'm suggesting he wait until it's necessary to fight, and not provoke a fight otherwise. If it's looking like he has to fight, he should strike first, preferably engaging in deception or surprise to gain an advantage, and beat the crap out of the other guy, or at least disorient him and get the hell out of there.

I'm just saying fighting for the sake of it is dumb. It endangers you, it hurts other people, and quite frankly, not as many people like it as you'd think.


It occured to me that the question of mine you answered came across as either an insult or a threat. :oops: It was not intended to be either. My point was supposed to be that it usually is not that big of a deal. Broken noses heal pretty quickly, even into your late twenties.

I'm sticking pretty strictly to the OP, and I wouldn't say an attack on the instigator there would be fighting for the sake of fighting. The idea behind causing physical injury to someone is to keep them from coming near you.

Ari wrote:It's said girl's responsibility to have enough backup if she's going to stand up to people she doesn't feel confident of beating physically. With some good technique she can probably quite easily disorient or embarrass most drunken idiots, but I do agree that women need to be a little more prepared in this regard than men do due to us generally having a size advantage.

I don't suggest anyone follow my example in that sense if they don't want to, but thanks to the wonderful magic of societal progress, all he has to pay if he does choose so is a little social grief.

I think that Adalwolf and I both have been arguing that the "boyfriend"(in most instances) counts as "backup." Or at least should. The instigator in the OP wasn't a drunken lout, either.
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The OP shouldn't be concerned for his own social grief, he should be concerned for his girlfriend's safety. The chest-thumping testosterone rush is just a by-product. As for societal progress, maybe I should refer you to Homer? Rules of society do not apply to men such as the instigator in the OP, and pretending that they do is going to prevent you from getting home(so to speak.)
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Re: Violence

Postby Ari » Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:45 am UTC

Adalwolf wrote:And no, I have never lost a fight fight. I've had several draws where the fight was broken up, but I've never lost. I have, however, gotten injured in fights. Busted lips, black eyes, bruises, sore knuckles, etc. Nothing major, however.


I guess I come from the perspective of someone who knows how unfair fights get and how easy it is to just become a punching bag, and how it hurts even if you roll with the punches.

When you're flying high and haven't lost, I can see why you'd be a less cautious about fighting, and not mind raising fists to avenge insults, but... I really, really hope that doesn't catch up to you. Keep yourself safe, man. :) There is nothing dishonourable in that.

I'd also point out that you can most certainly do some very serious damage to someone with your bare hands, and rather easily if it degenerates to being kicked while you're down. And someone who is genuinely furious with you and sober will not do a good job of holding back, so judging the situation you are in is very important to keep as many people safe as possible, and as a hopefully responsible man, that should be your aim, generally speaking.

Nullcline wrote:It occured to me that the question of mine you answered came across as either an insult or a threat. :oops: It was not intended to be either. My point was supposed to be that it usually is not that big of a deal. Broken noses heal pretty quickly, even into your late twenties.

I'm sticking pretty strictly to the OP, and I wouldn't say an attack on the instigator there would be fighting for the sake of fighting. The idea behind causing physical injury to someone is to keep them from coming near you.


No harm done, and thankyou for that comment, I did feel a little like you were challenging my desire to see the OP keep himself safe, and I'd like to think none of us wants that, whatever we suggest. :)

See, I'm not so sure given the OP's second post. I get the feeling it's possible that he's taken this as some sort of challenge to his manly authority, and that it could possibly not be an issue to the girl, as he hasn't said anything in this regard. My take on that sort of thing is that you don't need to do anything to defend a woman's honour unless she wants you to, and even then you need to both want to yourself, and have been given pretty good cause. We've established the last two criteria nicely I think, but not necessarily the first.

Nullcline wrote:I think that Adalwolf and I both have been arguing that the "boyfriend"(in most instances) counts as "backup." Or at least should. The instigator in the OP wasn't a drunken lout, either.
Sobriety + Beligerent Sexual Interest = Deviant Libido = Dangerous
The OP shouldn't be concerned for his own social grief, he should be concerned for his girlfriend's safety. The chest-thumping testosterone rush is just a by-product. As for societal progress, maybe I should refer you to Homer? Rules of society do not apply to men such as the instigator in the OP, and pretending that they do is going to prevent you from getting home(so to speak.)


Well, boyfriends are always backup if they're half-decent. My point was that she can be her own primary defender if she's the assertive type, and she's come prepared for violence. Some women are actually a lot better at it than we are, because they need to put the effort in to defend themselves while they're single. Men can often get by just by being intimidating.

As for social rules- I'm certainly not suggesting anyone endanger anyone's safety for any sort of social perception. I was trying to point out that there are times when the instinct to fight actually does endanger you, and you need to know when those are and be prepared to prevent violence first. That can mean hiding or running away, too. We shouldn't be afraid of those for social reasons either, right? :)

My essential point is that you need to be perceptive. You will know when people are thinking about causing trouble and you'll know if you've managed to convince them not to, if you've got any common sense. If they're still going for violence... you should take the element of surprise, cause them as much confusion as you can, and do what you have to to be safe.

But don't endanger yourself, either by fighting or choosing not to fight, just because of social pressure or some stupid idea about your self-identity. The first rule is to keep safe and keep the people you're responsible for safe. :)
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Re: Violence

Postby Spoffin » Mon Dec 24, 2007 10:53 am UTC

I gotta tell you, if someone had done that to me, I would have TOTALLY walked away and posted on the internet about what I ought to have done to him.

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Re: Violence

Postby Nullcline » Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:15 am UTC

Ari wrote:
Nullcline wrote:It occured to me that the question of mine you answered came across as either an insult or a threat. :oops: It was not intended to be either. My point was supposed to be that it usually is not that big of a deal. Broken noses heal pretty quickly, even into your late twenties.

I'm sticking pretty strictly to the OP, and I wouldn't say an attack on the instigator there would be fighting for the sake of fighting. The idea behind causing physical injury to someone is to keep them from coming near you.


No harm done, and thank you for that comment, I did feel a little like you were challenging my desire to see the OP keep himself safe, and I'd like to think none of us wants that, whatever we suggest. :)
So, yeah...I apologize if I offended...and stuff.

Ari wrote:See, I'm not so sure given the OP's second post. I get the feeling it's possible that he's taken this as some sort of challenge to his manly authority, and that it could possibly not be an issue to the girl, as he hasn't said anything in this regard. My take on that sort of thing is that you don't need to do anything to defend a woman's honour unless she wants you to, and even then you need to both want to yourself, and have been given pretty good cause. We've established the last two criteria nicely I think, but not necessarily the first.
I did a very bad job of articulating myself earlier. Just for the record, I had a similar experience in high school that did not end too well, so I might be projecting a bit. My point in mentioning that the OP's "evolutionary instincts" were there for a reason was made with the OP's second post in mind. The instigator's behaviors, as articulated in the post, are pretty threatening, for reasons I've mentioned. The instincts involved, which several posters have dismissed as medevial, might just take this into account. The OP, nor anyone else here, would consider violent reaction if the instigator had been polite in asking the OP's girlfriend out, and shown embarrassment when confronted with the OP's relationship with said girlfriend.

Ari wrote:
Nullcline wrote:I think that Adalwolf and I both have been arguing that the "boyfriend"(in most instances) counts as "backup." Or at least should. The instigator in the OP wasn't a drunken lout, either.
Sobriety + Beligerent Sexual Interest = Deviant Libido = Dangerous
The OP shouldn't be concerned for his own social grief, he should be concerned for his girlfriend's safety. The chest-thumping testosterone rush is just a by-product. As for societal progress, maybe I should refer you to Homer? Rules of society do not apply to men such as the instigator in the OP, and pretending that they do is going to prevent you from getting home(so to speak.)


Well, boyfriends are always backup if they're half-decent. My point was that she can be her own primary defender if she's the assertive type, and she's come prepared for violence. Some women are actually a lot better at it than we are, because they need to put the effort in to defend themselves while they're single. Men can often get by just by being intimidating.

I agree with the first part of this. But prospective boyfriends, or potential-rapists if you like :lol: , should not ever assume that any future girlfriends are able to defend themselves. I mean no offense to any women on this board, but a black belt in karate doesn't mean much against a male of even the same size, and it's been my experience that most women refuse to accept this. :roll: I started to go into the effectiveness of different defense measures, but that discussion can go somewhere else. There is never an excuse for not being prepared.

In any case, this gets to why I mentioned that the OP's age in important. I mean no offense(again,) but some of the posters' attitudes towards violence completely disregard its usefulness. I gathered that the OP was genuinely unsure how to go about dealing with a genuine threat - at least to his and his girlfriend's short-term happiness - because he(probably) has been taught that violence "doesn't solve anything." This is hogwash. Of course he needs to be careful if the instigator is willing to up the antes too far(such as introduce firearms and the like,) but grooming his "evolutionary instinctual" side is perfectly acceptable. They are there for a reason.

So to the OP: "Dude, beat his monkey ass." If you need tips on how to prepare, and how to maximize your chances of winning and how fearful he is of dealing with you again, send a PM.


Ari wrote:The first rule is to keep safe and keep the people you're responsible for safe. :)
I agree completely. So do my hormones. :twisted:
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Re: Violence

Postby Berengal » Mon Dec 24, 2007 1:01 pm UTC

Meh. Just tell the guy he's not worth fighting. Take the high ground right away, as that's hard currency in these situations.
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Re: Violence

Postby Nomic » Mon Dec 24, 2007 1:04 pm UTC

I usually don't believe in violence (there are much better ways to destroy somebody than punchineg their face in), I do understand why many people say you should kick the guys ass. Hell, there's one girl I know who I would most certainly fight for if she would be insulted like that. Infact, I'd be quite willing to die for Her Glorious Name. However since I don't know the girl you talk about, I can't say whetehr or not she's worth risking injury for.

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Re: Violence

Postby eristic » Mon Dec 24, 2007 4:04 pm UTC

So there were too many posts for me to read but here's my take. I try to avoid violent solutions, but if he approaches you one more time then I think you squash this once and for all. I suggest you calmly walk up to him and punch him in the throat. Your aim is his adams apple. He'll fall right over onto the floor. Some people only learn a lesson by such means. Then tell him to quit bugging you and walk off. If you haven't been in a fight before then I'm going to guess that you wouldn't do well if you fought him and probably don't know how to take a punch.

I'm sort of a "if all else fails, use fire" kind of guy. If he keeps threatening you, then its time to lay down the law.
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Re: Violence

Postby d3adf001 » Mon Dec 24, 2007 4:06 pm UTC

Maurog wrote:Never been in a fight, but for some reason I know that if after making a fist you bring the folded middle finger a bit forward and lock it between its two neighbours, your punch is supposed to have more force. Don't even know if it works...


You're going to break a finger if you do that. also if hes planning a place for a fight im going to guess hes going to show up with a few friends and jump you.

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Re: Violence

Postby Likpok » Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:12 pm UTC

Nullcline wrote:I mean no offense to any women on this board, but a black belt in karate doesn't mean much against a male of even the same size, and it's been my experience that most women refuse to accept this.


Maybe karate. However, the basic point behind martial arts was to equalize size disadvantages. Or, there are martial arts for which this is true.

A skilled practitioner of aikido, for example, could likely beat the crap out of someone much larger. Either that or break things (like arms, wrists, etc).
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Re: Violence

Postby My Uncivilized God » Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:18 pm UTC

Alright. Clarification is in order, I guess.

Nullcline wrote:In any case, this gets to why I mentioned that the OP's age in important. I mean no offense(again,) but some of the posters' attitudes towards violence completely disregard its usefulness..


I'm twenty years old.

Nullcline wrote:Wait, he called your girlfriend a slut to her face while you were there and you didn't do anything? Coward. There is nothing wrong with beating the crap out of people who have no manners, except that you might scrape your knee.


Sorry for the confusion. He called her a slut to me, and then called us over to his vehicle (as I was walking her to her car) and asked her to go get drunk with him at a club. He tried to get her phone number, but she said no, so he gave her his.

Honestly, it made me very, very angry. But I went home and calmed down some. Rumor really does travel faster than light though, and apparently I mentioned the incident to someone and it got back to him. Which doesn't bother me to much, since I want to fight him.

He's a friend of my friend, and he's an asshole. He hits people and expects them to take it, and he's slowly ruining my friend, David's, life. David is a slight, dramatic kind of guy, and he has a constant set of bruises from "hanging out" with the asshole. Plus he's depressed all the time now because he thinks he's a coward for not hitting the guy back.

Whatever pain I can give the guy, he deserves.
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Re: Violence

Postby Barbie » Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:38 pm UTC

Nullcline wrote:Which "evolutionary insctincts" are you referring to?

The intincts that give a man the tendency to "engage in behaviors that ensure that he monopolizes sexual access to his mate."

Nullcline wrote:Judging from the OP, this guy doesn't just have a need to feel like he impacts the world. He's attracted to the OP's girlfriend, and in pursuing her, has stepped over the line. No amount of ear and eye covering is going to slow this guy's libido.

Maybe he's attracted to the girl, but the man mainly just wants attention, but if he actually thinks that being disrespectful is going to get him the girl, have some compassion; it's not good form to beat up mentally handicapped people.

Nullcline wrote:
Barbie wrote:It does show that you do not have the cognitive strength to overcome your evolutionary instincts.
It doesn't matter if he loses the fight, if you throw a punch, he has already won.

I don't remember why I took these out.....Oh right, they're both complete nonsense.

You developed your instincts when things were very different. They may drive you to do things that are not in your self interest. Maybe it's right to beat him up, maybe it's not, but you have to actually -think- before you act, or else you are nothing more than an animal.

Someone wants to get a rise out of you, you give it to him. He wins.

Ari wrote:He better hope his girlfriend actually appreciates said beating. She might want to solve her own problems, you know.

Seconded. She's not your possession or your territory. If you think like that, you're no better than the other guy.

My Uncivilized God wrote:David is a slight, dramatic kind of guy, and he has a constant set of bruises from "hanging out" with the asshole.

Why does David associate with this guy? By continuing to "hang out" with him, David is encouraging his behavior. You're adults, you don't -have- to be friends with anyone, and you are perfectly free to file police reports and get restraining orders.
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Re: Violence

Postby Khonsu » Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:39 pm UTC

Ari and Barbie hit the nail on the head in their first posts. No one cares (except those who like seeing a little amusing carnage at the expense of stupid people fighting) about fighting, defending "honor," or revenge unless they're emotionally stunted. Chivalry IS dead and I'm GLAD. It's just a thinly-veiled way of ALSO being a dick. Most girls don't care AT ALL what boys do physically, unless they're so stupid and happy with that "Yay, he's protecting me because I'm inferior!" thing, they're not worth loving.

Whereas that "alpha male" that lots of guys find so repulsive is straightforward about how he feels toward women ("They're there to be fucked! They're not as good as us boys!"), a chivalrous guy is passive-aggressive ("I'll defend your honor because you can't! Wait, why won't you date me, I defended your honor even if you didn't ask me to!")

Cut the "I'm noble! I'm protecting HONOR" bullshit and just beat the shit out of a guy if it gives you pleasure. He's a dick. You LIKE violence against people YOU deem worthy of violence. Admit it. So he called your girlfriend a "slut." As opposed to what, a "prude?" There's no in-between! You don't comment on a girl's sexuality except to say that there's something wrong with it in our culture. Thanks for continuing the Madonna-Whore complex most women have by acting like what he said was a bad thing! Sex is awesome. Screw his childish, sexist worldview! Don't even give him the time of day!

Fighting is stupid. Fucking is awesome. Guess which you should do more!

PS: I AM planning on learning Aikido but because I am not interested in soundly destroying someone in a fight. It is statistically proven that even black belt status cannot stop a rapist--something psychological makes even very talented martial artists a sitting duck. I just want to avoid their blows and push them to the ground while screaming for help so I can gain enough distance to shoot them in the knees.
Last edited by Khonsu on Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:47 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Violence

Postby My Uncivilized God » Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:44 pm UTC

Khonsu wrote:Ari and Barbie hit the nail on the head in their first posts. No one cares (except those who like seeing a little amusing carnage at the expense of stupid people fighting) about fighting, defending "honor," or revenge unless they're emotionally stunted. Chivalry IS dead and I'm GLAD. It's just a thinly-veiled way of ALSO being a dick. Most girls don't care AT ALL what boys do physically, unless they're so stupid and happy with that "Yay, he's protecting me because I'm inferior!" thing, they're not worth loving.

Whereas that "alpha male" that lots of guys find so repulsive is straightforward about how he feels toward women ("They're there to be fucked! They're not as good as us boys!"), a chivalrous guy is passive-aggressive ("I'll defend your honor because you can't! Wait, why won't you date me, I defended your honor even if you didn't ask me to!")

Cut the "I'm noble! I'm protecting HONOR" bullshit and just beat the shit out of a guy if it gives you pleasure. He's a dick. You LIKE violence against people YOU deem worthy of violence. Admit it. So he called your girlfriend a "slut." As opposed to what, a "prude?" There's no in-between! You don't comment on a girl's sexuality except to say that there's something wrong with it in our culture. Thanks for continuing the Madonna-Whore complex most women have by acting like what he said was a bad thing! Sex is awesome. Screw his childish, sexist worldview! Don't even give him the time of day!

Fighting is stupid. Fucking is awesome. Guess which you should do more!


Let us cut to the core of the matter. You're right. Next weekend I'm going to meet him on a deserted road and rip his throat out with my teeth. Solely because I want to.

Thanks for clarifying things for me.
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Re: Violence

Postby Upsilon » Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:45 pm UTC

Shank him with your box cutter.

Just kidding. Don't do that. You'll go to jail.
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Re: Violence

Postby Khonsu » Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:53 pm UTC

My Uncivilized God wrote:Let us cut to the core of the matter. You're right. Next weekend I'm going to meet him on a deserted road and rip his throat out with my teeth. Solely because I want to.

Thanks for clarifying things for me.

If it didn't, somehow, deep down, make you feel good about yourself, you wouldn't be agreeing to do it. Very few intelligent, mature people do things they don't want to do--unless they can get something out of it. What do you get out of it? There is no "honor" in sending the message to your girlfriend that her sexual habits are cause for violence, that some dumbass talking shit is worth spending an ounce of energy on--why? Because he's right? or because he's wrong, but you care about stupid-ass rumors? Why are you even FOCUSING on this high school bullshit? He's a nobody, and you should have the assertiveness to say "This guy is a dick, and if my other friend is worthwhile, he won't guilt me for not wanting to be around this guy!"

You're sticking around a guy who could very well harm your girlfriend or you simply because of a friend's tenuous relationship with him. That's not very mature at all! Tell him to fuck off, and tell your friend to fuck off if he hangs out with such trash. David should also find the spine to get out of the friendship, too. Fighting this guy isn't going to make him less of a dick, he's just going to respond to the primitive "Oh, he's my alpha male, I better not fuck with him--OH HEY, DAVID IS A WEAKLING. I'll beat on him! He's LESSER." thing.

You're making things worse for David by fighting. If this asshole can't get his testosterone jollies off by fucking girls and beating you up because you've cornered the market on a girl he wants, so to speak, he's going to take it out with violence on David, because that's how human trash acts.
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Re: Violence

Postby Barbie » Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:59 pm UTC

Khonsu, you're my hero. I'm going to print your first post out and put it on my wall.

My Uncivilized God wrote:Let us cut to the core of the matter. You're right. Next weekend I'm going to meet him on a deserted road and rip his throat out with my teeth. Solely because I want to.

Thanks for clarifying things for me.

First, I respect that you are aware enough to recognize your true intentions. Second, Robert Pickton wanted to kill all those women. Merry Christmas.
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Re: Violence

Postby My Uncivilized God » Mon Dec 24, 2007 6:18 pm UTC

I was being mildly sarcastic.

But not completely.
A) She's not my girlfriend. Maybe at some point. I'm going on one date with her. I apologize for the confusion on this subject.

B) I want to see what will happen to me.

C) I'm actually second on this guys hitlist, he's already got his sights set on one of my coworkers. With any luck at all, I'll get a piece of him first.

D) He has it coming.

E) I want it to come from me.

F) Mature my ass. "Grownups" are children who take their tantrums seriously, and expect others to do the same. Or they sit back and talk about being mature, and handling things through the proper channels, because it makes them feel old and wise.

Everything is more complicated than anyone thinks it is, and if you want to be "mature" then take that into account.
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Re: Violence

Postby My Uncivilized God » Mon Dec 24, 2007 6:22 pm UTC

Barbie wrote:Khonsu, you're my hero. I'm going to print your first post out and put it on my wall.

My Uncivilized God wrote:Let us cut to the core of the matter. You're right. Next weekend I'm going to meet him on a deserted road and rip his throat out with my teeth. Solely because I want to.

Thanks for clarifying things for me.

First, I respect that you are aware enough to recognize your true intentions. Second, Robert Pickton wanted to kill all those women. Merry Christmas.


And Ed Gein exhumed bodies because he wanted to. As long as we're throwing horror laden names around as dramatic parting gestures.

Merry Christmas.
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Re: Violence

Postby Chocceh » Mon Dec 24, 2007 7:45 pm UTC

Like it or not, society in general is moving more to the left. Gone are the days when men had the ultimate authority and women were to be kept barefoot and pregnant; here are the days when we're slowly but steadily tipping the scale back and forth, little by little, nearly at the balanced point.

Whether this society is better or worse than the others before it or the others to come is another topic entirely - one that I haven't put enough thought into - but you're going to have to accept that in this society, fighting will make you look downright stupid.
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Re: Violence

Postby Govalant » Mon Dec 24, 2007 7:59 pm UTC

The fight should be avoided if possible. But if words can't get to him, maybe punches can.

He has no right to talk shit like that (Well, I think technically he does, but anyway), and if he keeps bothering you, you should kick his ass for being a stupid asshole.

Also try to man up your friend, make him realize that he's not cool for hanging out with him, but that he's being used to make this asshole's life a bit more interesting.

And if I understood correctly, he asked for your girlfriend's number in front of you and her. I would have said "Fuck you. She's my girlfriend", and took off. And if she didn't want to go, then she didn't really want you anyway.

By the way, don't do anything stupid, and I mean going to jail stupid.
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Re: Violence

Postby Barbie » Mon Dec 24, 2007 8:09 pm UTC

My Uncivilized God wrote:
Barbie wrote:First, I respect that you are aware enough to recognize your true intentions. Second, Robert Pickton wanted to kill all those women. Merry Christmas.

And Ed Gein exhumed bodies because he wanted to. As long as we're throwing horror laden names around as dramatic parting gestures.

Merry Christmas.

Robert Pickton's pig farm is 10 minutes from my house. He isn't an abstract horrific news story, he's a local guy whose desires happened to be misaligned with the well-being of society. We removed him from society so that he can't negatively affect us any more. Are your desires consistent with your society's values? Our respective democracies have outlawed assault, and if you get assaulted, we have created structured channels to deal with that. If you don't agree with the rules, either gather enough like-minded people to change the rules (it is a democracy, after all), or find another society.
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Re: Violence

Postby Adalwolf » Mon Dec 24, 2007 8:23 pm UTC

Barbie wrote:
My Uncivilized God wrote:
Barbie wrote:First, I respect that you are aware enough to recognize your true intentions. Second, Robert Pickton wanted to kill all those women. Merry Christmas.

And Ed Gein exhumed bodies because he wanted to. As long as we're throwing horror laden names around as dramatic parting gestures.

Merry Christmas.

Robert Pickton's pig farm is 10 minutes from my house. He isn't an abstract horrific news story, he's a local guy whose desires happened to be misaligned with the well-being of society. We removed him from society so that he can't negatively affect us any more. Are your desires consistent with your society's values? Our respective democracies have outlawed assault, and if you get assaulted, we have created structured channels to deal with that. If you don't agree with the rules, either gather enough like-minded people to change the rules (it is a democracy, after all), or find another society.


Bah, society can go to hell. People can do whatever they damn well please.
People still get in fights all the time. As long as no one needs to be hospitalized, there's no reason fighting should be a crime. This all starts early with the retarded 0 Tolerance policies in schools, where kids can get expelled for fights- which is turning out a generation of little effeminate boys.
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