Violence

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Adalwolf
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Re: Violence

Postby Adalwolf » Mon Dec 24, 2007 8:23 pm UTC

Chocceh wrote:Like it or not, society in general is moving more to the left. Gone are the days when men had the ultimate authority and women were to be kept barefoot and pregnant; here are the days when we're slowly but steadily tipping the scale back and forth, little by little, nearly at the balanced point.

Whether this society is better or worse than the others before it or the others to come is another topic entirely - one that I haven't put enough thought into - but you're going to have to accept that in this society, fighting will make you look downright stupid.


Stupid if you lose. If you win, you are treated like a hero, and with respect.
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Yawgmoth
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Re: Violence

Postby Yawgmoth » Mon Dec 24, 2007 8:28 pm UTC

Nullcline wrote:Wait, he called your girlfriend a slut to her face while you were there and you didn't do anything? Coward. There is nothing wrong with beating the crap out of people who have no manners, except that you might scrape your knee.

Echoing this. This guy sounds like too much of a pussy to do anything but run his mouth, so breaking it should give him ample reasons to not be such a douchetruck in the future.

As for my own fights, I got into a lot of them in high school. The thug-wannabe kids thought they could pick on me because I'm not built like a linebacker, which ended with them having broken arms and dislocated shoulders and such. I'm vicious in fights. <.<

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Re: Violence

Postby Chocceh » Mon Dec 24, 2007 8:38 pm UTC

Adalwolf wrote:Bah, society can go to hell. People can do whatever they damn well please.


Let me know when you have your utopia. I'd love to join!

Adalwolf wrote:People still get in fights all the time. As long as no one needs to be hospitalized, there's no reason fighting should be a crime.


There are plenty of reasons why you should still be punished for fighting: disturbing the peace (maybe), the intent of harming someone (not to be confused with self-defense), etc...

Adalwolf wrote:This all starts early with the retarded 0 Tolerance policies in schools, where kids can get expelled for fights- which is turning out a generation of little effeminate boys.


Adalwolf wrote:Stupid if you lose. If you win, you are treated like a hero, and with respect.


From you and how many misfits?
Okay

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Re: Violence

Postby Govalant » Mon Dec 24, 2007 8:43 pm UTC

Yawgmoth wrote:
Nullcline wrote:Wait, he called your girlfriend a slut to her face while you were there and you didn't do anything? Coward. There is nothing wrong with beating the crap out of people who have no manners, except that you might scrape your knee.

Echoing this. This guy sounds like too much of a pussy to do anything but run his mouth, so breaking it should give him ample reasons to not be such a douchetruck in the future.

As for my own fights, I got into a lot of them in high school. The thug-wannabe kids thought they could pick on me because I'm not built like a linebacker, which ended with them having broken arms and dislocated shoulders and such. I'm vicious in fights. <.<


Whaa that's great. Too bad there aren't any bullies in my school, otherwise I would love to do that.

One time I was about to fight this guy but my friends told me to go and I did. Later the guy sat next to me and said "Hi!".

My reply was "fuck you" and he left.
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Re: Violence

Postby Khonsu » Mon Dec 24, 2007 8:58 pm UTC

"Little effeminate boys?" You mean the kind that don't embarrass themselves in public by flying off the handle at every perceived slight, making themselves look like Neanderthals instead of Man Thinking?

Beh. The world would be a better place if hypermasculine OR hyperfeminine idiots didn't exist.

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Re: Violence

Postby My Uncivilized God » Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:09 pm UTC

Khonsu wrote:"Little effeminate boys?" You mean the kind that don't embarrass themselves in public by flying off the handle at every perceived slight, making themselves look like Neanderthals instead of Man Thinking?

Beh. The world would be a better place if hypermasculine OR hyperfeminine idiots didn't exist.


Agreed. But I'm not trying to be macho, I'm just trying to draw a line for this guy because of what he has done and is still doing to most of the people I know.
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I'll ask if I can take my guns,
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Re: Violence

Postby My Uncivilized God » Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:14 pm UTC

Barbie wrote:
My Uncivilized God wrote:
Barbie wrote:First, I respect that you are aware enough to recognize your true intentions. Second, Robert Pickton wanted to kill all those women. Merry Christmas.

And Ed Gein exhumed bodies because he wanted to. As long as we're throwing horror laden names around as dramatic parting gestures.

Merry Christmas.

Robert Pickton's pig farm is 10 minutes from my house. He isn't an abstract horrific news story, he's a local guy whose desires happened to be misaligned with the well-being of society. We removed him from society so that he can't negatively affect us any more. Are your desires consistent with your society's values? Our respective democracies have outlawed assault, and if you get assaulted, we have created structured channels to deal with that. If you don't agree with the rules, either gather enough like-minded people to change the rules (it is a democracy, after all), or find another society.


I don't have a problem with rules, but sometimes I don't follow them. And if, for example, I were to decide to attack this guy and seriously injure him, then I would still not have a problem with the rules, even as they sent me to prison. After all, I was aware of what could happen before I did it.
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Re: Violence

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:20 pm UTC

I've only skimmed this thread, because there is too much stupid to do any more. (And by "stupid" I mean "pointless macho posturing or recommendations thereof".)

One thing I noticed was that everyone advocating violence seems to be male, while the women in this thread are saying it's stupid. Which is kind of funny, considering how much of the advocated violence is allegedly in defense of an insulted woman or her "honor" or somesuch.
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Adalwolf
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Re: Violence

Postby Adalwolf » Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:27 pm UTC

Khonsu wrote:"Little effeminate boys?" You mean the kind that don't embarrass themselves in public by flying off the handle at every perceived slight, making themselves look like Neanderthals instead of Man Thinking?

Beh. The world would be a better place if hypermasculine OR hyperfeminine idiots didn't exist.


Boys that can't act like men. Who can't stand up for themselves, who are push overs. Who are too cowardly to defend their loved ones, etc. Boys who cannot do any physical work. Basically, weaklings in spirit and body. You don't have to get angry at everything, beat up everyone who slights you, etc. BUT, there are times when you need to put punks in their place.

I'm not trying to come off like some badass macho man who beats up everyone, as that is not the case. I simply have a line that I warn people not to cross, and if they do, I put them in their place. (after many warnings, shouting, talking, etc. Most people, as long as they aren't piss drunk know when to stop).
Last edited by Adalwolf on Tue Dec 25, 2007 5:04 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Violence

Postby Khonsu » Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:42 pm UTC

There are times to fight, times to run, and times to know when it isn't worth it. Most people don't understand the distinctions at all, and that makes me sad. Look, most women are more embarrassed than proud when a guy they are associated with socially (boyfriend or creepily defensive friend) beats some other offending male up. I know that any time any of my friends or exes beat someone up, it was NOT appropriate and it always ended up being a huge embarrassment (or ended up in me getting beaten on for daring to come between the two guys, it was fucking BIBLICAL). It is NEVER okay to beat someone up for something verbal, UNLESS your name is Jon Lovitz and the guy you're beating up is Andy Dick. Any situation similar is appropriate to bring out the punches, but otherwise, no, just walk away and be the better person. Violence doesn't SOLVE the social problem, it just makes the Neanderthal take it out on someone else instead of you. You might as well castrate the fucker so NO ONE has to deal with his bullshit again.

I am reminded of this song. I don't think it applies to anyone here, but this certainly applies to like, my last three boyfriends.

JOAN JETT - MACHISMO
Machismo doesn't wanna know... macho, macho, macho
It's always such a show, when anyone is watchin'
Even when you're wrong, you just won't admit it
You think you're bein' strong, so you take it to the limit

Everyone's watchin' everyone's watchin'
It's time to play the fool again
Everyone's watchin' everyone's watchin'
You think you're cool but baby you're not
Everyone's watchin' everyone's watchin'
You gotta rule and call the shots

Machismo doesn't understand... macho, macho, macho
What makes a man a man, it ain't about your ego
You have to make your point but where the hell's it got ya
You're just a bunch a noise, but that ain't nothin' new

Always so macho, always so macho
If you could only see yourself
Always so macho, always so macho
You ain't got the balls to be yourself
Always so macho, always so macho
You take it out on everyone else
Always so macho, always so macho oooohh

Machismo loves to fight macho, macho, macho
That you think might is right!
But I know that it just ain't so
Bravado is veneer, and yours is one I see through
You're really insecure and you're afraid I know you

Everyone's watchin' everyone's watchin'
You gotta rule an' call the shots
Always so macho, always so macho
If you could only see yourself
Everyone's watchin' everyone's watchin'
You thing you're cool but baby you're not
Always so macho, always so macho ooooohh

You've got to have your say
Always have to get your way
Don't want Machismo anymore
Last edited by Khonsu on Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:49 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Violence

Postby Swordfish » Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:43 pm UTC

Wow, just, wow. The amount of idiocy in this thread is mind boggling. You want to beat the hell out of some asshole who shouldn't be deserving of any amount of your time because he insulted your potential girlfriend? I'll be the first person to tell you that there are times to fight, but this is not one of them!

I could go on a big long rant here, but I'm not quite sure where to start, so I'll leave it at this:

What's this girl going to be more concerned about, the fact that fought a guy who insulted her, or your own well being?
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Re: Violence

Postby Dream » Mon Dec 24, 2007 10:08 pm UTC

My Uncivilized God wrote:But I'm not trying to be macho, I'm just trying to draw a line for this guy because of what he has done and is still doing to most of the people I know.


In early October, I was tripped up by a friend of a friend. The result was a fracture dislocation of my right elbow, wihich I will be lucky to see the back of by next october. The pain was literally indescribable, and all I really did was fall over. If you go and start a fight with anyone you could possibly avoid violence with, you are literally taking your life, and your health in your hands. I know from first hand experience how risky what you are thinking of is. There is a very good chance that anything you do to him will provoke a response that will incapacitate you immediately. A broken limb, or a concussion or some such thing. Then you will be entirely in his power, and have angered someone already aggressive a great deal. Nothing is worth the risk you are taking here.

By all means, if violence is unavoidable, defend yourself. But until then, you will be responsible for any injuries to yourself, and will have to deal with the consequences yourself. Is your pride (And it is your pride alone. If this girl were really the reason you were so belligerent, you would have her opinion, as in; "Go kick ass and defend me" to post) really worth such a long recovery? If you never regain cpomlete use of your favoured arm, will you think you did the right thing?

Ignore this fool. He is clearly not worth your time, and you have posted nothing worth risking your own health for.
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Re: Violence

Postby Barbie » Mon Dec 24, 2007 10:11 pm UTC

Adalwolf wrote:Bah, society can go to hell. People can do whatever they damn well please.

Your argument is that people should be allowed autonomy to do what they want. Using violence is a way of manipulating others' free will. So by giving everyone -complete- freedom you're saying physically strong people can do whatever they damn well please, and physically weak (or maybe just unskilled at fighting) people can suffer. To equally distribute freedom you need rules in place that disallow people from doing things that violate others' autonomy.
My Uncivilized God wrote:I don't have a problem with rules, but sometimes I don't follow them. And if, for example, I were to decide to attack this guy and seriously injure him, then I would still not have a problem with the rules, even as they sent me to prison. After all, I was aware of what could happen before I did it.

Do you have divine inspiration for your suicide mission? If you're planning to sacrifice your own and other people's well-being, you'd better be damn sure that what you're doing is right. Being a martyr doesn't make you a hero.
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Re: Violence

Postby Nullcline » Mon Dec 24, 2007 10:45 pm UTC

Barbie wrote:The intincts that give a man the tendency to "engage in behaviors that ensure that he monopolizes sexual access to his mate."

Given the way the instigator has acted, I'd say this instinct would serve well.
Barbie wrote:Maybe he's attracted to the girl, but the man mainly just wants attention, but if he actually thinks that being disrespectful is going to get him the girl, have some compassion; it's not good form to beat up mentally handicapped people.

I'm sorry, but we simply disagree about the subject's intent. It seems obvious to me that he is dangerous to everyone, especially the (not) girlfriend. And "mental snobbery" doesn't usually serve to form any of my opinions.
Barbie wrote:You developed your instincts when things were very different. They may drive you to do things that are not in your self interest. Maybe it's right to beat him up, maybe it's not, but you have to actually -think- before you act, or else you are nothing more than an animal.
This is just naive and insulting. I do think, and so does the OP. Neither of us, however, are going to pretend that we have evolved completely above the need for genomes or neurotransmitters.

Barbie wrote:Someone wants to get a rise out of you, you give it to him. He wins.

No one is interested in the moral high ground here. This guy is engaging and will continue to engage in behaviors that are dangerous to teh OP's friends. He wants to stop these behaviors. Luckily, evolution has his back. (I don't think quoting after-school-specials will work.)

Khonsu wrote:Cut the "I'm noble! I'm protecting HONOR" bullshit and just beat the shit out of a guy if it gives you pleasure. He's a dick. Screw his childish, sexist worldview! Don't even give him the time of day!

I don't see anything wrong with the sentiments in the first sentence, I just don't know who holds them. Nobody expects to get the Nobel Prize for Bravery-in-the-Face-of-Minor-Bodily-Contact for protecting loved ones or friends. As for not giving this guy the "time of day," I don't think the OP has a choice. Unless he wants to wait for someone to get badly hurt by him so that the cops can come in. I don't think the OP is willing to use his friends as bait in this way.

Khonsu wrote:You LIKE violence against people YOU deem worthy of violence. Admit it.
So admitted.

Just as a Point of Order: Both fighting and fucking are fun.
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Re: Violence

Postby Alisto » Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:02 pm UTC

"Fighting not good. Somebody always gets hurt." -Mr. Miagi

Here's a fact of life: It doesn't matter how right you are. If someone can physically beat you, it makes them right. Violence is a very effective way to gain superiority. However, it should be a last resort. Story time:

A few years ago I was dating a girl with an emotionally abusive father. One night I was there and he became very confrontational and abusive with me, the mother, and the daughter. There was nothing I could do but stand there and take it. Logic and calm discussion were not going to work with this man, and he was a small step away from becoming physical. If he had resorted to violence, I wouldn't have been able to do anything. He was bigger and stronger than me and I had never been in a fight in my life.

That encounter is why I began taking martial arts. I never want to be in a situation where someone has power over me or my loved ones (or anyone, really) only because they will win a physical encounter.

That being said, violence is appropriate at times. But if the fight involves meeting at some prearranged location (and it's not sport-based), that is not one of those times. If you "win", you have not discouraged the guy. All you have done is encouraged him to get payback and you've opened yourself up to potential legal issues. People can get killed accidentally. If you lose, you've given him a free pass to harass you as much as he wants and you're hurt/crippled/dead.

Violence is appropriate in three instances:

1. It is forced upon you. This is called "self-defense".
2. It is forced upon a friend, loved one, or innocent. This is called "defense of others".
3. When violence is the only thing a person will understand and all other avenues have been exhausted.

#3 is the tricky one. Let's just say it should be more rare than 1 & 2.

My Uncivilized God wrote:He says he wants to fight, and he showed up at my place of employment yesterday, screaming at me from a car. I told him I was on the clock, and I wasn't going to fight him while I was supposed to be working. So he told me (I'm quoting) "go clock out, motherfucker, so I can kick your ass."


The fact that the next words you wrote were not, "So I called the police," reinforces the second word in your username.

Isaac Asimov wrote:Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.
Bad grammar makes me [sic].
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Re: Violence

Postby Barbie » Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:28 pm UTC

Nullcline wrote:No one is interested in the moral high ground here.

If you do not place intrinsic value in ethical behaviour, it is pointless for us to have this conversation. We are basing our arguments on different axioms. We really have no choice but to agree to disagree.

Or if you wanted to solve this once and for all, we could always just fight for it ;)
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Re: Violence

Postby functionally_stupid » Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:34 pm UTC

As a lady throwing her two cents in, Jesus fucking Christ, you dumbass, call the fucking cops and behave like you have some fucking honor.

Sure, you might be brutally manly if you kick his ass. You might be an amazingly cool, amazingly powerful "fist of justice" style fighter who kicks his ass six ways to Sunday and defends the honor of his mate. But just so you know, I, for one, would never choose to call a violent, unrestrained fucktwat my mate. There is no honor to be had in acts of animalistic fury. Go ahead and fight him, if you feel like lowering yourself from Man to Beast, but just bear in mind that most women don't fuck animals.

There is honor in a proportionate response. There is value in defending the reputation of the people you love. There is merit in self-defense, in equal and opposite return.

There is no honor in behaving like a dog in a fighting pit. There is only mindlessness, hunger, debauchery.

tl;dr: f_s DOES NOT APPROVE.
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Re: Violence

Postby Chocceh » Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:37 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:One thing I noticed was that everyone advocating violence seems to be male, while the women in this thread are saying it's stupid.


For what it's worth, I'm male.

Adalwolf wrote:Boys he can't act like men. Who can't stand up for themselves, who are push overs. Who are too cowardly to defend their loved ones, etc. Boys who cannot do any physical work. Basically, weaklings in spirit and body.


I never made it blatant, so I'll ask it now: who put you in charge of saying what's valuable and what's not? Why should physically able people have more priority than others? I'm not trying to set up a straw man, but I'm understanding that you believe people who can settle things with a fight to be better than people who use other means.
Okay

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Re: Violence

Postby Ian Ex Machina » Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:43 pm UTC

functionally_stupid wrote:
tl;dr: f_s DOES NOT APPROVE.


Ahahaha (Also loved the use of fucktwat in your post, and pure vehemence you put into the words.) :p

But yes OP, seriously violence is not the way forward, and to throw a proverb at you involving pens, swords and might.
Unrestrained aggression loses you many friends and makes you appear like some kind of animal.
I've been on the receiving end of the twatty violence (No instigation, just eyeliner) and the kind of guys that ave 'proved' their manliness also lost a lot of respect friendship and in one case I think a potential romantic interest.
Just next time(if) you are threatened by the guy, call authorities.

@Whoever said it is men duty to protect women- Christ what century are you in :s?



Also Merry Christmas all :)
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Re: Violence

Postby elminster » Tue Dec 25, 2007 12:08 am UTC

I'd say just ignore him unless he makes it unavoidable and you have the law on your side.

Isn't many things that gives an adrenaline rush like a fight.
I've been in quite a few and last proper one was 3 years ago. I don't start fights (i.e. Throw the first punch) unless they do something that warrants it. Most of the time it's because idiotic things they do, like going far out their way to deliberately really annoy you with no reason to do so at all (Usually because they find it funny. "Happy slappers" etc).
I've lost 2 fights before. I should have seen it coming in the first case, where it was organised and 8 bigger guys were around him. I practically had him (He was almost about to pass out), until 2 of them pulled me off and held me. Second case wasn't organised and it was me jumping in to one to help a friend from a 3v1, which turned into a 4v1 on me.
My friends, who didn't join in, applauded me for trying to help, despite coming out much worse.
Since last fight I've had, I've trained in a couple of martial arts, so if I had the law on my side and it came to it, I would go to town on him.
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Re: Violence

Postby @trophy » Tue Dec 25, 2007 1:32 am UTC

Jeebus the stupid is strong in here. As usual, Khonsu is right in nearly everything she has said so far.

Regarding the guy: this dude is dangerous. If he really is beating up friends, those friends need to press charges. End of story. Beating his ass will lead to escalation... next time, he'll bring a knife/gun/friends. People will end up in jail or dead. Way too much fail for my taste.

Regarding girls: Even if that wasn't the case, any girl worth having would find "Yeah you keep blabbin' I'm going to treat this lovely lady to a nice evening while you sit alone with your thoughts/drink/pr0n/hand/farm animals." and then walking away 100x as sexy as fighting the guy. Cavemen fight the guy who calls their girlfriend names. James Bond talks his way out of the fight then takes the girl back to his room. Don't be a caveman; be James Bond.

Regarding violence in general: In Khe Karate Kid 2, Mr Miagi is shown a picture of some other dude breaking a 6x8 in half, and asked if he could do the same. His reply was "Don't know. Miagi never been attacked by tree." Violence is only useful in a handful of situations that Lord willing you'll never find yourself in. If the guy won't leave you alone, call the cops. If you don't have time to call the cops because your safety is being immediately threatened, punch him in the throat and then call the cops.

And for the record, I haven't been in a fight since jr high. I got picked on a lot up until then, and I would get beat up several times per year, with the teachers and staff seeing everything that was being done to me and doing nothing about it. I have fought back 3 times in my life (whenever I was sufficiently surrounded that talking my way out of it or running away wasn't an option) and I finished the fight right then and there all three times. I don't enjoy fighting, and winning the fight gave me neither any pleasure nor any respect with anybody at school.

Even if you have no other choice, violence is not a good option and it's never over. Avoid it at all costs.
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Re: Violence

Postby Nullcline » Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:20 am UTC

f_s wrote:Sure, you might be brutally manly if you kick his ass. You might be an amazingly cool, amazingly powerful "fist of justice" style fighter who kicks his ass six ways to Sunday and defends the honor of his mate.
Which is awesome.

f_s wrote:But just so you know, I, for one, would never choose to call a violent, unrestrained fucktwat my mate.
Has anyone here advocated non-restraint? I've noticed a difference in the way people go about reasoning in these situations. We get it. You guys who have ascended to a plane of pure ethics see something that we lowly earth-dwelling Neanderthals don't. I, for one, didn't realize that fist-fights make baby Buddha cry.


Barbie wrote:
Nullcline wrote:No one is interested in the moral high ground here.

If you do not place intrinsic value in ethical behaviour, it is pointless for us to have this conversation. We are basing our arguments on different axioms. We really have no choice but to agree to disagree.

To be fair, we do both want the same thing. We want the OP to remain safe. Taking immediate violence completely off of the table is a huge mistake, and you(seem to) have built your ethics with the sole purpose of doing so. Or you were brainwashed into doing it, hence the "after-school-special" type statements. :wink: I haven't once taken into account how I feel when I talk about my opinions when forming them. Whether or not this thread is filled with stupid aside, everyone here can guess the opinions of those who start their posts with such a statement. This only reinforces my belief that everyone who disagrees with me constructs their beliefs so that they feel good when they tell themselves what they believe. Example:

Whoever said it is men duty to protect women- Christ what century are you in

No one so far has suggested that men should wear tights and a cape and run around Gotham saving poor little innocent girlie-girls from themselves and from the villians. The poster in the OP, however, has a good reason for being concerned for the immediate safety of the girl he went on one date with, and at the very least should be prepared to "bring the pain(as it were") at a moment's notice. I'm not saying that that the girl should swoon over her Knight in Shining Armor, either. Or that he should expect her to. He should, however, be able to fill this function.
According to the attitudes of most of the posters, taking any attitude other than shock that someone might consider straightening their arm just in front of someone else's face has no place in our brave new world. :roll:

Barbie wrote:Or if you wanted to solve this once and for all, we could always just fight for it ;)
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Re: Violence

Postby Alisto » Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:50 am UTC

Nullcline wrote:To be fair, we do both want the same thing. We want the OP to remain safe. Taking immediate violence completely off of the table is a huge mistake


Is prearranging a fight considered "immediate violence"?

Nullcline wrote:This only reinforces my belief that everyone who disagrees with me constructs their beliefs so that they feel good when they tell themselves what they believe.


Translation: Everyone who doesn't think like I do is wrong.

Nullcline wrote:No one so far has suggested that men should wear tights and a cape and run around Gotham saving poor little innocent girlie-girls from themselves and from the villians. The poster in the OP, however, has a good reason for being concerned for the immediate safety of the girl he went on one date with, and at the very least should be prepared to "bring the pain(as it were") at a moment's notice.


The OP never said he felt the girl was in danger. He said that the guy's behavior was insulting. The guy even gave the girl his phone number, so it's not like he was waving a knife around. The only person that has been threatened by the person in question is the OP. He has not once expressed concern for the safety of the girl.

Also, while I definitely advocate stepping in to protect others, the question of violence has nothing to do with that. The OP has flat-out stated that he thinks this guy is an asshole, deserves an ass-kicking, and he just wants to do it.

I suggest a little reading comprehension before you start making arguments that have nothing to do with the subject at hand.
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Re: Violence

Postby Nullcline » Tue Dec 25, 2007 3:18 am UTC

Alisto wrote:
Nullcline wrote:This only reinforces my belief that everyone who disagrees with me constructs their beliefs so that they feel good when they tell themselves what they believe.


Translation: Everyone who doesn't think like I do is wrong.

I'm sure everyone thanks you for decoding this. :wink:

Alisto wrote:
Nullcline wrote:No one so far has suggested that men should wear tights and a cape and run around Gotham saving poor little innocent girlie-girls from themselves and from the villians. The poster in the OP, however, has a good reason for being concerned for the immediate safety of the girl he went on one date with, and at the very least should be prepared to "bring the pain(as it were") at a moment's notice.


The OP never said he felt the girl was in danger. He said that the guy's behavior was insulting. The guy even gave the girl his phone number, so it's not like he was waving a knife around. The only person that has been threatened by the person in question is the OP. He has not once expressed concern for the safety of the girl.

Also, while I definitely advocate stepping in to protect others, the question of violence has nothing to do with that. The OP has flat-out stated that he thinks this guy is an asshole, deserves an ass-kicking, and he just wants to do it.

I suggest a little reading comprehension before you start making arguments that have nothing to do with the subject at hand.

I contended at first that the OP's more animal instincts to hurt the instigator successfully approximated a rational course of action. I believe it was Barbie who got to the "what century is it" arguments first. Here's the general form of the argument:
Poster X tells OP that he shouldn't succumb to his evolutionary predatory instincts to dominate, because we're "better than that."
I brought up(I admitted that I may have been projecting a bit) that the instigator constituted a real threat, and that the OP's "desire to secure sole access to a mate" perceived this. I still believe that I am correct. I find the fact that the guy tried to assert himself over both the OP and the girl, in an insulting way, and at the same time to be kind of scary. So did the OP, except he didn't get scared, he got mad and started entertaining violent thoughts. As he should have.

Alisto wrote:Is prearranging a fight considered "immediate violence"?

This is fair. A lot of people, such as yourself, who advocate letting just the police handle this sort of situation miss one crucial point. @trophy was the last to argue that this fight, whether won or not, would cause "guy" to come back later in some other capacity, or with more force... I don't see how putting him in jail for(at most) 2 days or getting a restraining order would be any different. Ibid on the Odyssey reference. While he should make sure that he keeps the legal upper hand, the OP should do his best not just to fight and beat the instigator, but to scare the ever-loving hell out of him. There's a pretty good Nixon quote I want to put here, but I'm too lazt to look it up. The gist is that one's enemies should always think that you are a bit crazy. In any case, this is what I've been trying to get at, with differing results.
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Re: Violence

Postby Alisto » Tue Dec 25, 2007 4:14 am UTC

I have already addressed every one of your points in my first post in this thread.

And this is my last.
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Re: Violence

Postby My Uncivilized God » Tue Dec 25, 2007 4:21 am UTC

You guys hold loud opinions.

A lot of the posts in this thread make for really entertaining reading material... if I were writing a book on the evolution of violence in human beings, the mating habits of animals, or modern day sexism.

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Re: Violence

Postby Adalwolf » Tue Dec 25, 2007 5:16 am UTC

Chocceh wrote:
Adalwolf wrote:Boys he can't act like men. Who can't stand up for themselves, who are push overs. Who are too cowardly to defend their loved ones, etc. Boys who cannot do any physical work. Basically, weaklings in spirit and body.


I never made it blatant, so I'll ask it now: who put you in charge of saying what's valuable and what's not? Why should physically able people have more priority than others? I'm not trying to set up a straw man, but I'm understanding that you believe people who can settle things with a fight to be better than people who use other means.


Uh, I thought being physically fit was a good thing for everyone? I thought being able to defend yourself was a good thing? Common sense, perhaps?

I don't believe that people who can settle things by winning a fight are better than people who use other ways. I'm saying that people who are not able (through laziness or whatever) to win a fight at all, or who will not fight at all are worse than those who are physically fit and will fight.

I'm not in the greatest shape, but I am still capable of doing physical work, taking punches, and throwing punches, participating in sports, etc. Those who are not able, by choice, should be ashamed of themselves. Everyone should be in decent physical condition (people all don't have to be olympic athletes).

Now, about the mindset. In my mind, men should be self-confident, and should protect their loved ones by any means possible, even if it means laying down their lives. They should be brave, respectful, and honorable (as in not stealing, beating up people for no reason, etc). Fighting someone because they are acting like a prick is perfectly fine.

Another thing: I truly do no understand why people think fighting is such a risk! Its not like a fist fight will kill you!

To Machina: So you don't feel like it is a man's duty to protect his loved ones from harm?
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Re: Violence

Postby Akula » Tue Dec 25, 2007 5:55 am UTC

Let the dipshit be for now.
If he lays a hand on you, or more especially, the lady, then you wreck his shit.
Personally, I think the biggest part of a fight is attitude more than training and technique... at least as far as parking lot brawls and barfights go. If you're half-heartedly in it, your in deep shit. So if it does come to blows, don't hold back until someone is done.

But yeah, avoid it if possible. Sounds to me like he's being more of a pest than someone who really needs their ass kicked. I agree that there is a line that, when crossed, means it's time for someone to receive a beating. You may want to re-evaluate the line though. Name calling and being a dick is not crossing the line. If he tries anything physical... then that tears it. If he pursues a long extended campaign of minor douchebaggery (continued name calling and harrassment) then just let the cops know, maybe get a restraining order.

Another option is to hope he starts a fight, and then lose. Then, when it's over, sue the ever loving shit out him. 8)
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Re: Violence

Postby Swordfish » Tue Dec 25, 2007 6:17 am UTC

Nullcline wrote:Has anyone here advocated non-restraint? I've noticed a difference in the way people go about reasoning in these situations. We get it. You guys who have ascended to a plane of pure ethics see something that we lowly earth-dwelling Neanderthals don't. I, for one, didn't realize that fist-fights make baby Buddha cry.


You don't have to have reached enlightenment to realize that it's a stupid idea to risk your well being in a fight with someone because he called a potential girlfriend a name.

Adalwolf wrote:Uh, I thought being physically fit was a good thing for everyone? I thought being able to defend yourself was a good thing?


Well, yes, it would be a good idea to learn how to defend yourself, but, first of all, what the OP is talking about is not defending one's self, it's willfully participating in a fight, and second, any self defense course of any worth that you ever take will give you the same advice that the pacifists in the thread are giving: avoid fights! The best way to ensure you don't lose or get hurt in a fight is to not fight.

From the way the OP has described the situation, we're not talking about self defense or defense of others yet. If that was the situation, then we'd be talking past tense here. That being said, it could turn into a defense situation unless he does something about it soon. And by do something about it, I mean call the police, dealing with that stuff is what they get paid for.

... This is probably falling on deaf ears anyway, as it seems as though the OP has already made his decision.
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Re: Violence

Postby Jesse » Tue Dec 25, 2007 6:56 am UTC

I lived on a council house estate in Port Glasgow for three years, with a fairly well-spoken English accent.

I've been going to punk/alternative clubs since I was sixteen.

I've been involved in martial arts since I was six.

I've been involved in professional wrestling for the past four years.

In all that time, in all the myriad fights I've had, nothing has ever been resolved in them. Hitting him will not stop him lusting after the girl you like. Hitting him will not make her like you more. Hell, beating him until he's black and blue will just get you into prison, leaving him free to harass the said lady without you around.

Things do not end with one fight, dominance is not established over the other person because they just rationalise it in their mind and come back again, this time with friends, or a knife, or a gun. I say this as someone who still has a scar running from my navel up to my chest from someone who decided to get revenge on me when I was in Scotland.

You wanna fight so bad? Go ahead and do it. But I'll be sat here hoping you get exactly what you deserve.

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Re: Violence

Postby Barbie » Tue Dec 25, 2007 7:00 am UTC

Nullcline wrote:Taking immediate violence completely off of the table is a huge mistake, and you(seem to) have built your ethics with the sole purpose of doing so.

My ethical views are mostly influenced by Immanuel Kant (Deontology), Robert Nozick, and Eastern Philosophy (Buddhism, Hinduism, Yoga) and very subtly by Ayn Rand. If you would like me to defend my opinions about ethics, I can. They are not based on conditioning, they are based on Saved By The Bell. But I doubt a thread called "Barbie's Ethical Standpoint" would be very popular.

My Uncivilized God wrote:You guys hold loud opinions.

...what were you expecting? If you're just looking for blind validation, there are probably much more sympathetic groups out there.
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Re: Violence

Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Tue Dec 25, 2007 7:01 am UTC

Wow, is it a fucktard contest in here or are we all working our way toward being in Project Mayhem?

...Are these two things mutually exclusive?

Anywhoosle,

1. Violence is unattractive.

2. OP, quit worrying about whether your actions make you a pussy or whatever, and start worrying about more important things than this guy. He's probably not going to touch you anyway. He is a stupid bully and you will move past his bullshit, or you will drown in it. Move on. Chill out. Shut up.

All of you.

Why the hell isn't this in SB where it might be less stupid?
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Re: Violence

Postby Adalwolf » Tue Dec 25, 2007 7:04 am UTC

Meaux_Pas wrote:Wow, is it a fucktard contest in here or are we all working our way toward being in Project Mayhem?

...Are these two things mutually exclusive?

Anywhoosle,

1. Violence is unattractive.

2. OP, quit worrying about whether your actions make you a pussy or whatever, and start worrying about more important things than this guy. He's probably not going to touch you anyway. He is a stupid bully and you will move past his bullshit, or you will drown in it. Move on. Chill out. Shut up.

All of you.

Why the hell isn't this in SB where it might be less stupid?


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Re: Violence

Postby Jesse » Tue Dec 25, 2007 7:04 am UTC

Because it's not possible to have a real debate on this. Also it would only have maybe three posts in it that follow the SB rules, and they would pretty much all be Barbie's.

And Adalwolf, you're wrong. You're the fucktard. We proved it with Science! and social consensus.

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Re: Violence

Postby (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ » Tue Dec 25, 2007 7:08 am UTC

How right you are, Jesse.
That's unfortunate.
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Re: Violence

Postby Adalwolf » Tue Dec 25, 2007 7:11 am UTC

Jesster wrote:Because it's not possible to have a real debate on this. Also it would only have maybe three posts in it that follow the SB rules, and they would pretty much all be Barbie's.

And Adalwolf, you're wrong. You're the fucktard. We proved it with Science! and social consensus.


Ha!

Because I still believe that men should act like MEN, and defend their loved ones from harm, emotional and physical? Because I believe there is a line, and if it is crossed someone needs to get their ass kicked?

Call me old fashioned...
Last edited by Adalwolf on Tue Dec 25, 2007 7:20 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Violence

Postby Will » Tue Dec 25, 2007 7:11 am UTC

Barbie wrote:...what were you expecting? If you're just looking for blind validation, there are probably much more sympathetic groups out there.


Baboons, for example.
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Re: Violence

Postby Jesse » Tue Dec 25, 2007 7:19 am UTC

Adalwolf wrote:
Jesster wrote:Because it's not possible to have a real debate on this. Also it would only have maybe three posts in it that follow the SB rules, and they would pretty much all be Barbie's.

And Adalwolf, you're wrong. You're the fucktard. We proved it with Science! and social consensus.


Ha!

Because I still believe that men should act like MEN, and defend their loved ones from harm, emotional and physical? Because I believe there is a line, and if it is crossed someone needs to get their ass kicked?

I guess I'm just old fashioned, and not a damned pacifist (aka: coward).


Who decides what a 'MAN' should act like? I'm sure as hell not being told how to act by someone like you.

As for pacifism and cowardice, go back and read my post. Want me to list the injuries I have from the fights I've been in? I'm sure as hell not proud of them.

I have a spine that is pushed out of place, and I need a chiropractor to snap into position every few months.

I have a left knee that no longer fully bends or takes my weight.

I have a neck I can't fully turn to either side.

I have a shoulder that periodically sends spasms of pain shooting down my arm.

I have a rib that is knocked inwards, that I've been told they can do nothing about and that is in almost constant pain.

I have that scar up my stomach from where someone tried to gut me with a knife.

I have two broken front teeth, and one molar completely missing from where it was knocked out.

All that, and really I've got off light, I know plenty of people in worse positions than me health-wise. All fighting ever got me were those injuries, nothing else.

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Re: Violence

Postby Swordfish » Tue Dec 25, 2007 7:23 am UTC

Adalwolf wrote:Ha!

Because I still believe that men should act like MEN, and defend their loved ones from harm, emotional and physical? Because I believe there is a line, and if it is crossed someone needs to get their ass kicked?

I guess I'm just old fashioned, and not a damned pacifist (aka: coward).


It is not acting like a man to beat someone up because of a petty insult. That is acting like a child or an idiot. If you are in any real physical danger that is not immanent, then there is a prescribed avenue to take to defend you loved ones, and that is to go to the police.

It is not bravery, or valorous to fight at the drop of a hat, it's reckless, it's stupid, and eventually it'll get you hurt or killed. It is not cowardice to avoid fights, it's smart.

"Discretion is the better part of valor." That's a quote everyone has probably heard and most of the people in this thread need to think about.
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Re: Violence

Postby Adalwolf » Tue Dec 25, 2007 7:27 am UTC

Jesster wrote:
Adalwolf wrote:
Jesster wrote:Because it's not possible to have a real debate on this. Also it would only have maybe three posts in it that follow the SB rules, and they would pretty much all be Barbie's.

And Adalwolf, you're wrong. You're the fucktard. We proved it with Science! and social consensus.


Ha!

Because I still believe that men should act like MEN, and defend their loved ones from harm, emotional and physical? Because I believe there is a line, and if it is crossed someone needs to get their ass kicked?

I guess I'm just old fashioned, and not a damned pacifist (aka: coward).


Who decides what a 'MAN' should act like? I'm sure as hell not being told how to act by someone like you.

As for pacifism and cowardice, go back and read my post. Want me to list the injuries I have from the fights I've been in? I'm sure as hell not proud of them.

I have a spine that is pushed out of place, and I need a chiropractor to snap into position every few months.

I have a left knee that no longer fully bends or takes my weight.

I have a neck I can't fully turn to either side.

I have a shoulder that periodically sends spasms of pain shooting down my arm.

I have a rib that is knocked inwards, that I've been told they can do nothing about and that is in almost constant pain.

I have that scar up my stomach from where someone tried to gut me with a knife.

I have two broken front teeth, and one molar completely missing from where it was knocked out.

All that, and really I've got off light, I know plenty of people in worse positions than me health-wise. All fighting ever got me were those injuries, nothing else.


I went back an edited my post, a minute late it seems. I never called you a coward. You seemed like a very brave person. And I'm sorry that your fights never got anything for you. Some of the fights I've been in actually accomplished something-it stopped people from hurting my friends.

Oh, and I thought it was accepted that men generally protected people they care for.

As for pacifism: as I understand it, pacifism calls for nonviolence all the time- which is a cowardly and morally repulsive. How could anyone sit back and let their friends and family be hurt or killed? That is the type of pacifism I call cowardly. I wouldn't say not-fighting unless you have to is the mindset of a pacifist. Sorry if I offended you, but I don't like being called 'fucktard' because I think men should defend their loved ones, and that when people cross 'the line', a smack down could be warranted.
Last edited by Adalwolf on Tue Dec 25, 2007 7:33 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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