Driving licenses, and the procuration thereof

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Berengal
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Driving licenses, and the procuration thereof

Postby Berengal » Mon Jan 21, 2008 11:32 pm UTC

I have a tractor and a car license, and have been driving some sort of vehicle since I was 15, but cars are boring. Therefore I've started toying with the idea of getting a motorcycle license lately, thinking about all the fun things I could do with one like touring the rest of Europe in the summer and listen to songs like "Born to be wild" without feeling guilty.

Is this awesome?

Also, I'm not sure what kind of bike I want. Naked? Cruiser? Touring? Input in this would be appreciated.
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Re: Driving licenses, and the procuration thereof

Postby saxmaniac1987 » Mon Jan 21, 2008 11:40 pm UTC

Berengal wrote:Also, I'm not sure what kind of bike I want.


Unicycle
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Re: Driving licenses, and the procuration thereof

Postby Antimatter Spork » Mon Jan 21, 2008 11:41 pm UTC

Is this a driver's license thread or a motorcycle thread?

If it's the first: I have a driver's license. I drive places sometimes.

If it's the second: a motorcycle? What if it rains? Or gets obnoxiously cold? Or both?

(Also, saxmaniac: a unicycle != (bicycle == bike). Nice suggestion, though.)
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Re: Driving licenses, and the procuration thereof

Postby saxmaniac1987 » Mon Jan 21, 2008 11:42 pm UTC

(I know. It's a joke)
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Re: Driving licenses, and the procuration thereof

Postby ZeroSum » Mon Jan 21, 2008 11:44 pm UTC

Motorcycles are awesome. I say get a naked bike. Balanced seats are the best.

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Re: Driving licenses, and the procuration thereof

Postby Berengal » Mon Jan 21, 2008 11:48 pm UTC

I saw this as a general drivers license thread with the current topic being me getting a motorcycle license.

Cold weather doesn't deter me. Icy roads does, however, so I'll have some sort of backup transportation plan.

Can't keep my balance on unicycles, and I don't think they come with motors attached.

How good is a naked bike for touring?
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Re: Driving licenses, and the procuration thereof

Postby Alpha Omicron » Mon Jan 21, 2008 11:56 pm UTC

Berengal wrote:Touring?

Nah, I'd go Turing.
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Re: Driving licenses, and the procuration thereof

Postby Berengal » Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:07 am UTC

Hah. Maybe I should make sure the tire prints can act as nand gates. In case I ever need to compute something while on the road, I can just fashion a program out of some pebbles and drive over them.
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Re: Driving licenses, and the procuration thereof

Postby Antimatter Spork » Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:13 am UTC

saxmaniac1987 wrote:(I know. It's a joke)

(I know. I just had a temporary failure of my ability to not nitpick).
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Re: Driving licenses, and the procuration thereof

Postby AerialSteamCarriage » Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:17 am UTC

saxmaniac1987 wrote:
Berengal wrote:Also, I'm not sure what kind of bike I want.

Unicycle


I've always wanted to build a Monowheel.
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Re: Driving licenses, and the procuration thereof

Postby Kineticka » Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:21 am UTC

I have no drivers license of any kind. :oops:

I have my reasons, though. Gas prices are ridiculous in my area. So is insurance and...well...parking. I have many outlets of public transportation available to me to get me pretty much anywhere. Plus, I have to go over a bridge with a $9 toll every day to get to school. Bus fare is only $2. Economy!

I realize, however, that having a license is a good idea for emergency situations. I just have to get off my ass and get to the DMV to get my permit, and then get some driving lessons.

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Re: Driving licenses, and the procuration thereof

Postby l33t_sas » Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:21 am UTC

I'm getting my Ls on Friday! :D
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Re: Driving licenses, and the procuration thereof

Postby microwaved » Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:41 am UTC

Just buy something cheap with no more than 70hp and ride it until you can gain some proper experience. There's no sense buying something expensive or flashy since you will dump it at least once as a novice rider. Also, you don't need anything fast because trust me, any motorcycle is going to feel quick as hell until you get used to riding.

Above all else though, just make sure you get a full face helmet and riding jacket. Motorcyclists who wear anything less make Darwin happy.

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Re: Driving licenses, and the procuration thereof

Postby Adalwolf » Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:54 am UTC

Berengal wrote:I have a tractor and a car license, and have been driving some sort of vehicle since I was 15, but cars are boring. Therefore I've started toying with the idea of getting a motorcycle license lately, thinking about all the fun things I could do with one like touring the rest of Europe in the summer and listen to songs like "Born to be wild" without feeling guilty.

Is this awesome?

Also, I'm not sure what kind of bike I want. Naked? Cruiser? Touring? Input in this would be appreciated.


Get a big ass Harley. A road hog, like the Hell's Angels ride. Those are so badass.

I have a driver's license. It only applies to cars and pick up trucks though. It might work for farm equipment, but I'm not sure.
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Re: Driving licenses, and the procuration thereof

Postby JayDee » Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:02 am UTC

I have no vehicle license at the moment. I don't need a car license, but I'm tempted to get a boat license.

However, if you want awesome, get a helicopter license.
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Re: Driving licenses, and the procuration thereof

Postby ZeroSum » Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:07 am UTC

And boots, boots, boots. Busted ankles are no fun.

Order of serious injuries when riding is head then feet up. That is, most serious injuries happen to the head then, next most serious happen to the feet, then up the body.

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Re: Driving licenses, and the procuration thereof

Postby wing » Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:19 am UTC

Kineticka wrote:I have no drivers license of any kind. :oops:

I have my reasons, though. Gas prices are ridiculous in my area. So is insurance and...well...parking. I have many outlets of public transportation available to me to get me pretty much anywhere. Plus, I have to go over a bridge with a $9 toll every day to get to school. Bus fare is only $2. Economy!

I realize, however, that having a license is a good idea for emergency situations. I just have to get off my ass and get to the DMV to get my permit, and then get some driving lessons.

You know, that's kind of funny... Because in 2 days in the greater LA area, I chewed through more coinage on the bus systems (and this is *WITH* passes where it's economically the right choice... There are just TOO FUCKING MANY BUS SYSTEMS and the inter-system passes are ungodly expensive and available *ONLY AT THE BEGINNING OF THE MONTH* - which was not when I was there) than you'd believe. In fact, it was more economically sound for me to rent and drive California's Mortal Enemy:
Spoiler:
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at $20/day and 10 cents a fucking mile (at the time I was under 21 and in the United States, no real rental agencies will speak to you before age 21... But truck rental companies are more than happy to give you anything on the lot - from these lame little pickups all the way up to 26ft just-under-CDL behemoths) than it was to pay bus fares. Buses are great if you only need to go to school or work and then back home... But if you actually need to go places, they're horribly time-inefficient, horribly inefficient in terms of expenditure, and generally useless.

In fact, after this experience, I have viewed all attempts at intentionally making cars harder to own and promoting "public transport" as simple attempts to subjugate the populace, turning them into simple, easily-exploitable wage-slaves.
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Re: Driving licenses, and the procuration thereof

Postby violaxcore » Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:25 am UTC

yeah, I'm 18, turning 19 in march. i still don't have my license. i'm sure at some point i'll make a concerted effort to obtain one.

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Re: Driving licenses, and the procuration thereof

Postby The Cosmic Fool » Tue Jan 22, 2008 7:32 am UTC

Kineticka wrote:I have no drivers license of any kind. :oops:

I have my reasons, though. Gas prices are ridiculous in my area. So is insurance and...well...parking. I have many outlets of public transportation available to me to get me pretty much anywhere. Plus, I have to go over a bridge with a $9 toll every day to get to school. Bus fare is only $2. Economy!

I realize, however, that having a license is a good idea for emergency situations. I just have to get off my ass and get to the DMV to get my permit, and then get some driving lessons.


I'm in the same boat. Cars are stupid. I'd rather just avoid the hell of it all, and catch a bus or get a ride.
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Re: Driving licenses, and the procuration thereof

Postby Berengal » Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:08 am UTC

microwaved wrote:Just buy something cheap with no more than 70hp and ride it until you can gain some proper experience. There's no sense buying something expensive or flashy since you will dump it at least once as a novice rider. Also, you don't need anything fast because trust me, any motorcycle is going to feel quick as hell until you get used to riding.

Above all else though, just make sure you get a full face helmet and riding jacket. Motorcyclists who wear anything less make Darwin happy.

Oh, I'm used to riding two-wheelers. In fact, I've driven some sort of two-wheeled contraption (scooter/moped) more than I've driven a car. That said, I can't affoard expensive. Inexpensive is where it's at, flashy optional as long as I can go on extended trips.
JayDee wrote:However, if you want awesome, get a helicopter license.

A helicopter license is somewhere after my sailplane license.
ZeroSum wrote:And boots, boots, boots. Busted ankles are no fun.

Order of serious injuries when riding is head then feet up. That is, most serious injuries happen to the head then, next most serious happen to the feet, then up the body.

Trust me, I'll be getting full body armour. In addition to being made out of the skin of innocent animals and looking sort of cool, I've no intention of getting hurt, plus it'll keep me warm on those cold days.
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Re: Driving licenses, and the procuration thereof

Postby timt » Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:54 am UTC

Bikes are cheap to buy run and depending on your countries laws you can line split through still traffic. However they are 0 fun when it's raining (think of each droplet as a little bullet) or windy/snowy and don't offer much in the way of carry room. I'm thinking about getting my license here but it seems a bike is just another think to have to look after. I wish the public transport was better in Perth so i would have no need to drive.

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Re: Driving licenses, and the procuration thereof

Postby Adalwolf » Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:59 am UTC

The Cosmic Fool wrote:
Kineticka wrote:I have no drivers license of any kind. :oops:

I have my reasons, though. Gas prices are ridiculous in my area. So is insurance and...well...parking. I have many outlets of public transportation available to me to get me pretty much anywhere. Plus, I have to go over a bridge with a $9 toll every day to get to school. Bus fare is only $2. Economy!

I realize, however, that having a license is a good idea for emergency situations. I just have to get off my ass and get to the DMV to get my permit, and then get some driving lessons.


I'm in the same boat. Cars are stupid. I'd rather just avoid the hell of it all, and catch a bus or get a ride.


What?! Cars are an absolute necessity to be independent.

Have you ever even driven? It is so fun going 90 down the highway with music blaring. You should try it.
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Re: Driving licenses, and the procuration thereof

Postby AKADriver » Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:25 am UTC

Fuel prices in the US are heavily subsidized by the public infrastructure. The actual "cost" of a gallon of gas is closer to what they pay in Europe, which is about $9/gallon US. I say this as someone who loves his car... a lot.

Anyway, a motorcycle license is definitely worth getting, though I understand it's a bit more difficult outside the US. Here we take a simple riding test in a parking lot, a very simple written test, and we're instantly licensed to ride any motorcycle regardless of engine capacity. Even with that, a large number of motorcyclists in the US are unlicensed idiots, which results in the "reckless lunatic" image.

For all their bad-boy king-of-the-road image, American cruiser bikes are horrible from a practical perspective. The laid-back seating position is comfortable, but the ground-shaking vibration of the off-angle V-twin, poor handling, and poor fuel economy make them a bad buy unless you're really dedicated to the look and the history, which I admit is appealing.

As a form of regular transportation, you'd probably want a sport-tourer, or a standard with some sort of fairing. Touring bikes are the ultimate in comfort, but they're designed for long, straight roads. If you're going to ride in town, you want something more agile.

I part-owned an '04 Kawasaki Ninja 250R (EX250) for a while, but found that motorcycling is just impractical in my area, and don't have any plans to get another bike. I'm still grateful for taking a Motorcycle Safety Foundation (MSF) basic rider course, though. It's worth every penny.

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Re: Driving licenses, and the procuration thereof

Postby wing » Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:48 am UTC

AKADriver wrote:Fuel prices in the US are heavily subsidized by the public infrastructure. The actual "cost" of a gallon of gas is closer to what they pay in Europe, which is about $9/gallon US. I say this as someone who loves his car... a lot.


What planet are you living on? The US pays closer to market price, Europe is taxed out the ass on every gallon. Seriously. I had a chart on this once showing the tax rate per gallon for various nations. $9/gallon is what you get after you take the $2.something market price and tack on layer after layer after layer of tax to subsidize infrastructure.

The US does not subsidize motor vehicle fuels. The US subsidizes heating oil, which while chemically identical to diesel, is, uh, subsidized. And it's often called "fuel oil" for some obnoxious reason.

And unlike you, I have a reference.
http://www.gtz.de/en/themen/umwelt-infr ... /10285.htm
The "International Fuel Prices 2007 in 2 Minutes" PDF has a handy reference chart on page 2 with the raw crude prices drawn on it, and the nations lumped into categories depending on how much of a sudsidy or tax they levy. The only nations subsidizing fuel to any meaningful degree are middle eastern nations. Gee, I wonder why.
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Re: Driving licenses, and the procuration thereof

Postby Berengal » Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:00 am UTC

All doubt has now been removed. I am getting a motorcycle license, and I'm getting it as soon as possible. A sport-tourer seems the best choice for me at the moment, as I want to be able to drive both really long and short distances with it (pluss I really doubt a regular tourer would handle the norwegian windy roads with much grace).
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Re: Driving licenses, and the procuration thereof

Postby TemperedMartensite » Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:02 am UTC

Simply put - Motorbikes are awesome. Heck - I don't even have my car license but only my motorbike license for now. I would not recommend that - it makes for a very weird testing situation where I live and I have to go get my drivers license now anyways...

I'd recommend a naked bike unless you plan to do long trips in which case a semi-faired bike would be the way to go. Take a motorbike training course and if you like it - get your license and get a bike - if you find that your balance leaves something to be desired then the only thing you lost was a small amount of time/money on the course!

edit: You just posted your post before I could hit post. Sport tourer's are amazing - I ride a sport-touring bike part of the time and love every second of it. This probably means a litre bike so insurance will be a little pricey - but totally worth it :D

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Re: Driving licenses, and the procuration thereof

Postby timt » Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:38 am UTC

Image
Image
Image
=win

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Re: Driving licenses, and the procuration thereof

Postby Berengal » Wed Jan 23, 2008 5:23 am UTC

That KTM has some awesome angles. Looks sort of like a cyborg bike...
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Re: Driving licenses, and the procuration thereof

Postby cephalopod9 » Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:02 am UTC

How does one go about learning to ride a motorcycle?

I can't really conceive of any sort of logic by which it would be at all a good idea for me to get one, but they are really cool.
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Re: Driving licenses, and the procuration thereof

Postby MotorToad » Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:08 am UTC

microwaved wrote:Just buy something cheap with no more than 70hp and ride it until you can gain some proper experience. There's no sense buying something expensive or flashy since you will dump it at least once as a novice rider. Also, you don't need anything fast because trust me, any motorcycle is going to feel quick as hell until you get used to riding.

Above all else though, just make sure you get a full face helmet and riding jacket. Motorcyclists who wear anything less make Darwin happy.

Wise man here. (Who is that in your avatar btw? I've been wanting to ask for a month or so. :))

You're lucky, IMO, to be in Europe. The U.S. has some stupid stigma against lower-capacity (i.e. cool as hell) bikes so we don't get a lot of the better standards and such.

There's a saying among riders that there are two types of riders: those that have dropped their bike and those that are going to. This is patently false! They are: those that have dropped their bikes, and those that are going to drop them again. They're not inherently stable and they fall. Really. Usually, it's not that big a deal, though, thankfully. I went through a spell where I seemed to like falling down every time it rained, three or four times over three years, but I didn't break anything on bikes or person so all's good. I'd also like to reiterate what ZeroSum said about boots.

As for the bike, I really recommend something smaller to start off with. Other than the SV-650, most smaller bikes are designed to handle more compliantly than a supersport. There are a lot of bikes that won't turn unless you're on the throttle and that may not be the reaction a newbie rider has when he sees something in his way in the middle of a turn. ANY bike is going to be fast, get one that's comfortable.

Which reminds me of reading:
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I just remembered something I wrote a [i[long[/i] time ago that I think is appropriate. I wrote this as a sticky for a forum I moderated 5 or so years ago. I like to think it's useful information.
So, you're getting a motorcycle. The first thing you need to know when shopping for a bike is that if you can't afford gear, you can't afford the bike. Having a bike and no gear is as silly as having a bike and no fuel tank. First, the universal rule: Get the best gear you can afford. Yes, some gear is higher quality for the dollar than other gear, but you probably don't have the experience or the connections to know which is a bargain and which is a rip-off. Salesmen, by the way, are not always (if ever) a good source of unbiased information. He may seem to care, he may even seem to be saving you money, but he probably makes more money off of a $100 DOT helmet than a $400 SNELL helmet. You're better off paying too much for quality than getting a deal on something that's going to fail.

All gear is a compromise. Some helmets are great on the track, but uncomfortable, loud, and won't seal out rain or cold weather. Leathers are irreplaceable (and required) on the track, but they look a little odd in the mall. They'll be a uncomfortable wearing them in school all day, too. Unfortunately, there's nothing that protects like leather, so most people are of the opinion that anything less is a waste. One of the saddest things about protective gear is that, other than helmets, there are no standards or ratings for the quality or abrasion resistance of gear. All you have to go on are experience and word of mouth, and some mouths don't tell the truth.

So, what do you get? That depends on how you ride, when you ride, where you ride, and where you ride to. Obviously the big necessity is a helmet. Get a SNELL approved helmet. Not only does the DOT rating mean absolutely nothing, but even if a helmet fails DOT the feds let them keep selling it. Some helmets are more track oriented, and some are more street oriented. Track helmets let you tuck under the screen, street helmets block the sun from blinding you in the late afternoon. Track helmets let a lot of air through the helmet but they're really loud, where street helmets keep noise, rain, and cold out, but they don't keep you very cool in the summer. Speaking of noise, get ear plugs. You'll be glad you did when you're forty and all your friends are deaf. There are some obvious quality differences between the big name big dollar units and the bargain brands. Yes, most likely a bargain brand SNELL lid will work when you need it, but that's not necessarily where the difference is. You spends HOURS at a time with the helmet on, and an uncomfortable helmet isn't going to make that $200 you saved on it seem like such a good idea.

For most people, I think the best first purchase is a two-piece leather suit. You can use the jacket alone for running around town, and you have a full suit for pleasure riding. Get one with a full circumference zipper so you can do track days, too. It's rare to find a two-piece suit that is perforated, but if you live in a warmer climate it's worth finding one.

If you're more dedicated to touring than sport riding, there's another branch of clothing out there for you, waterproof textiles with armor. One of the best compromises for a single jacket is a textile jacket with a liner. Most are vented well enough to make them comfortable in warmer weather, and with a liner and pants you can be waterproof and comfortable in 40§ weather, or even colder.

Other options depend on the climate you ride in. In the deep south it's nice to have a mesh or net jacket for in-town use. These are not very protective but they're better than a T-Shirt, and not much less comfortable. They'll help protect you from the worst of road rash, but don't expect a mesh jacket to keep you pain-free in all possible incidents. They're on the far end of the comfort compromise, but if you're just tooling around town it's better than sweating like mad in leathers or not wearing any protective gear at all. Jeans offer no protection whatsoever, but in all honesty road rash on your ass and legs isn't as uncomfortable as on your hands or torso, so it's not always worth the trouble of wearing or carrying bulky motorcycle pants around the mall or the campus.

Now that we've covered the skin, it's time to talk extremities. Boots and gloves are probably more important than jackets and leathers. Your hands are almost guaranteed to get rashed or broken if you fall without gloves, and think about all the things that you can't do without your hands. Protect them! Your feet and ankles are very susceptible to injury when you're riding, too. They're exposed, the bike may land on them, a car can run into your lane and crush them, and so on. Boots that cover the ankles can prevent a low speed tipover from becoming a month and a half in a chair or on crutches. Fortunately, boots and gloves are available in the same spectrum of functionality as everything else. Waterproof touring gear, tough armored race gear, vented street gear, there's something to match your riding style.

The important thing is to get gear for how you plan to ride. Commuting, canyon carving, travel, all have different needs and there's something out there for you. Over time you'll probably garner a collection of all these different types of gear. And the only good gear is what you're wearing.
Obviously, I love bikes. I've been bike-only on the street for five years and don't miss cages at all. And it's not like I'm a stranger to cars, I'm a 5-time regional champion in SCCA Solo II, in three regions. :)

The feeling of riding in the open compared to being isolated from the world in a cage is exhilarating. Cars are designed to require the absolute minimum of attention from the operator both while in use and for maintenance, while a motorcycle depends on its rider for every minute detail of its operation and existence.
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Re: Driving licenses, and the procuration thereof

Postby MotorToad » Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:14 am UTC

cephalopod9 wrote:How does one go about learning to ride a motorcycle?

I can't really conceive of any sort of logic by which it would be at all a good idea for me to get one, but they are really cool.

Forgive the double post, but that last one was a lot of typing. :)

In the U.S., there is the Motorcycle Safety Foundation.
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Re: Driving licenses, and the procuration thereof

Postby Eps » Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:39 am UTC

Okay, as you're European, here is some Europe-specific motorcycle advice...

- Forget all that stuff about Snell helmets - that's a US thing, and there is some debate about whether the Snell testing (two sharp point impacts in exactly the same place) results in helmets that have padding that's too firm for the 99.9% of accidents that don't involve two rapid impacts in exactly the same place. Besides, In the EU there are EU-wide helmet standards, so you'll be fine.

- Full-face helmet. Gloves. Boots. Armoured jacket. Armoured pants. That is what you need, particularly for touring.

- I ride a Kawasaki EX-250R "Ninja 250", which outside the US is known as the GPZ-250. They are a great sport-standard which can do pretty much anything - fantastic fuel economy, nice performance, robust, easy to attach luggage even without a rack, and cheap. They're popular with beginners, but also with riders such as myself who appreciate their advantages. If you're going to be doing a lot of touring, you may want to consider the KawasakiER-6f (650R in the US) or the Suzuki SV650. You should definitely get a bike with a fairing though, even if it's not a hardcore supersport like a Kawasaki ZX-6R or a Yamaha YZF-R6. In fact bikes like the ZX6R and the R6 can be less comfortable over longer distances.

- Features you should look for in a bike for you: friendly handling, a fairing, good fuel economy, at least some bungee hooks for your luggage, reliability, a large Internet userbase. The latter is very handy as it means that you can often do your own maintenance from FAQs! Bikes with an excellent userbase include the SV650 and the GPZ-250 / Ninja 250.

- Finally: GET TRAINING, AND PRACTICE BEFORE YOU GO ON A BIG TOUR!

An excellent introduction to motorcycle touring can be found here, although Dale's excellent advice is sometimes US-specific. Most of it's generally true, though.

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Re: Driving licenses, and the procuration thereof

Postby Berengal » Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:00 pm UTC

Wow, thanks for all the info, it's been really helpful.

I should also note that my aunt's a real bike enthusiast, so I'll be using her as a resource, particularly when getting my bike and equipment.
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Re: Driving licenses, and the procuration thereof

Postby timt » Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:15 am UTC

Also a great idea is to install rollers on the side of your bike. My dad put some on his kawasaki z1000 after scratching the tank up. Their basically padded cylinders that stick slightly out the sides of your bike (their not too noticeable) and will save you much greifing from low speed dropages.

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Re: Driving licenses, and the procuration thereof

Postby AKADriver » Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:11 pm UTC

wing wrote:
AKADriver wrote:Fuel prices in the US are heavily subsidized by the public infrastructure. The actual "cost" of a gallon of gas is closer to what they pay in Europe, which is about $9/gallon US. I say this as someone who loves his car... a lot.


What planet are you living on? The US pays closer to market price, Europe is taxed out the ass on every gallon. Seriously. I had a chart on this once showing the tax rate per gallon for various nations. $9/gallon is what you get after you take the $2.something market price and tack on layer after layer after layer of tax to subsidize infrastructure.

The US does not subsidize motor vehicle fuels. The US subsidizes heating oil, which while chemically identical to diesel, is, uh, subsidized. And it's often called "fuel oil" for some obnoxious reason.

And unlike you, I have a reference.
http://www.gtz.de/en/themen/umwelt-infr ... /10285.htm
The "International Fuel Prices 2007 in 2 Minutes" PDF has a handy reference chart on page 2 with the raw crude prices drawn on it, and the nations lumped into categories depending on how much of a sudsidy or tax they levy. The only nations subsidizing fuel to any meaningful degree are middle eastern nations. Gee, I wonder why.


I was a bit unclear. Let me expand on where I was going with that.

The cost of a gallon of fuel in the US is essentially the cost of finding, refining, and selling at a profit, the actual product. You're absolutely right and I don't intend to mislead anyone.

But in a very real sense, the cost of using a gallon of fuel is what ends up paid for by the heavy taxation found in Europe. Fuel taxes in the US barely even begin to pay for roads, much less the environmental and social costs of our oil-dependent economy (don't forget billions of dollars sunk into "defense" fighting wars in oil-producing nations). That stuff is either paid for via other taxes, or we'll get to pay for it when the oil runs out and/or Miami is under 50 feet of water.

http://www.iags.org/costofoil.html
http://foreign.senate.gov/hearings/2006/hrg060330a.html
http://www.icta.org/press/release.cfm?news_id=12

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Re: Driving licenses, and the procuration thereof

Postby keozen » Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:23 pm UTC

saxmaniac1987 wrote:
Berengal wrote:Also, I'm not sure what kind of bike I want.


Unicycle



Be fair, at least have a motor-unicycle:

Image
Image

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Re: Driving licenses, and the procuration thereof

Postby Dream » Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:34 pm UTC

AKADriver wrote:But in a very real sense, the cost of using a gallon of fuel is what ends up paid for by the heavy taxation found in Europe. Fuel taxes in the US barely even begin to pay for roads, much less the environmental and social costs of our oil-dependent economy (don't forget billions of dollars sunk into "defense" fighting wars in oil-producing nations). That stuff is either paid for via other taxes, or we'll get to pay for it when the oil runs out and/or Miami is under 50 feet of water.

I have to admit, I didn't get through those links, but this isn't SB, after all :wink: That said, it seems that general taxes are a burden on the entire economy, not just on drivers. That means the money paying for oil and gas subsidies comes from everyone, not just the drivers, whereas in Europe, it all comes from petrol and road tax. So, it's probably still cheaper in the States than over here, just cheaply spread among everyone. This, of course assumes not counting the cost of wars and economic bribes to oil producing nations which are much more expensive.

Anyway, idle speculation mixed with some rational thought and reasoning. Not SB...
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Re: Driving licenses, and the procuration thereof

Postby AKADriver » Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:26 pm UTC

Yeah... way too much wordiness on my part when I really just wanted to point out that no American really has any grounds to complain about fuel prices, other than to say they're higher than they used to be.

Anyway. Motorcycling. Yes, worth it, do it, and the EX250/GPZ250/whatever they call it where you're from is the perfect place to start.

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Re: Driving licenses, and the procuration thereof

Postby microwaved » Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:46 pm UTC

MotorToad wrote:Wise man here. (Who is that in your avatar btw? I've been wanting to ask for a month or so. :))

It's a picture that I found on ebay of all places, but unfortunately I found it after bidding had ended. The description says it's Italian racing ace Vasco Loro.

Personally I just think the photo is cool as hell and wish I had it hanging in my garage over my own cb750.

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Re: Driving licenses, and the procuration thereof

Postby MotorToad » Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:09 pm UTC

keozen wrote:Be fair, at least have a motor-unicycle:

Image
it's been done! :D
Image

Image
Functionally very similar to a Segway.
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