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Zarq
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Re: Rant Thread - The Spies of Faith

Postby Zarq » Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:53 pm UTC

saxmaniac1987 wrote:
Zarq wrote:
podbaydoor wrote:I will be judging their dates on their intelligence


How is this different?


It's not racist?


A person can't choose what race they belong to, but a person can't choose their level of intelligence either.
I see no difference.
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Re: Rant Thread - The Spies of Faith

Postby Oregonaut » Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:57 pm UTC

Because not wanting your children to have spouses significantly below their own level intellectually is not seen as systematic discrimination. The lobbying efforts of dumb people have thus far proven ineffective.
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Re: Rant Thread - The Spies of Faith

Postby podbaydoor » Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:59 pm UTC

Hopefully I'll have brought my unlikely future children up in such a way that they'll self-select their mates to match their intellectual level. If not...well, I'll probably disapprove, or at least ask them what other traits are compensating. But I guess it's their life, whatever. They're free to ruin it. This is why I'm not allowed to have children.
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Re: Rant Thread - The Spies of Faith

Postby saxmaniac1987 » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:01 pm UTC

podbaydoor wrote:Hopefully I'll have brought my unlikely future children up in such a way that they'll self-select their mates to match their intellectual level. If not...well, I'll probably disapprove, or at least ask them what other traits are compensating. But I guess it's their life, whatever. They're free to ruin it. This is why I'm not allowed to have children.


And, strikingly, exactly why you should.
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Re: Rant Thread - The Spies of Faith

Postby Oregonaut » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:03 pm UTC

I thought that intelligence was not necessarily hereditary...
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Mumpy wrote:And to this day, librarians revile Oregonaut as the Antichrist.

False! We sacrifice our card catalogues to him in the name of Job Security!

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Re: Rant Thread - The Spies of Faith

Postby Zarq » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:03 pm UTC

The hypocrisy is mind-boggling.

So it is okay to find a person below you because (s)he's not intelligent enough, but not because of what race (s)he belongs to?

Oh btw, is 'race' considered offensive?
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Re: Rant Thread - The Spies of Faith

Postby Oregonaut » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:06 pm UTC

Yes. Largely because none of us are running in a competition. The current correct term is "melanin factor".
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Mumpy wrote:And to this day, librarians revile Oregonaut as the Antichrist.

False! We sacrifice our card catalogues to him in the name of Job Security!

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Re: Rant Thread - The Spies of Faith

Postby podbaydoor » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:07 pm UTC

@saxmaniac: I have a feeling I'd either emotionally abandon them out of frustration (because I know how idiotic teenagers can be, and I can't stand idiotic people). I'd definitely start to resent them for imposing their useless selves on my perfectly freewheeling, selfish life. See what I mean?

@Oregonaut: Yeah, when I said I was going to judge my kids' mates on their intelligence, it was sort of encompassing more than just IQ. Also education, critical thinking skills, etc. I wouldn't be kindly disposed towards a hate-spewing religious bigot, for example, no matter how intelligent s/he is.

@Zarq: Oh, I freely admit that I'm a complete elitist. But intelligence is more than just genetically endowed IQ. It's also education, willingness to think, willingness to learn, and so on. A genius level stoner slacker with no plans to use his brain would be of little use to me as well.
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Re: Rant Thread - The Spies of Faith

Postby GraphiteGirl » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:07 pm UTC

It's more that intelligence is a compatibility thing - much easier to be in a relationship with someone you respect intellectually and therefore someone who is of roughly equal intelligence to you, or at least clever enough that you perceive them as an intellecual equal.

For a lot of people, there is no similar compatibility aspect to race or religion, particularly for people for whom the religious culture was never that important in the first place.
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Re: Rant Thread - The Spies of Faith

Postby Zarq » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:11 pm UTC

podbaydoor wrote:@Zarq: Oh, I freely admit that I'm a complete elitist. But intelligence is more than just genetically endowed IQ. It's also education, willingness to think, willingness to learn, and so on. A genius level stoner slacker with no plans to use his brain would be of little use to me as well.


Willingness to think and willingness to learn are also largely genetical.
Education is also out of the person's own hands because it depends on the other factors and the parents' income.

Neither of these are in the person's own hands, just like country of origin and skin colour.

@GG: I see the difference, I just don't find it significant. Neither is someting the parents should decide about.
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Re: Rant Thread - The Spies of Faith

Postby saxmaniac1987 » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:14 pm UTC

I also suspect that parents who are looking for their child to be with someone intelligent are more willing to let the child decide what's right for them on their own (while maintaining high standards), as opposed to demanding that their child's partner be of a certain race.
Last edited by saxmaniac1987 on Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:20 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rant Thread - The Spies of Faith

Postby Zarq » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:17 pm UTC

Maybe, maybe not.
I don't really want a big discussion about this, I just wanted to point it out.

And say that elitism is not that much better than racism, if you think about it.
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Re: Rant Thread - The Spies of Faith

Postby Mavketl » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:18 pm UTC

saxmaniac1987 wrote:...demanding that their child be of a certain race.

That would be impressive, if they determined the race of their child with sheer willpower.
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Re: Rant Thread - The Spies of Faith

Postby Oregonaut » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:19 pm UTC

I would find it to be more interesting that there would be a doubt as to the child's race when both parents are of the same race.
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Re: Rant Thread - The Spies of Faith

Postby GraphiteGirl » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:19 pm UTC

Zarq wrote:@GG: I see the difference, I just don't find it significant. Neither is someting the parents should decide about.

Oh, none of it is something the parents should decide about. But it's more understandable/justifiable for your parents to encourage you to date someone of similar intelligence than someone of similar race (at least in my very personal opinion). I think that's what podbay was saying - she'd be hoping to see signs of intelligence in her potential kids' potential SOs.
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Re: Rant Thread - The Spies of Faith

Postby saxmaniac1987 » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:21 pm UTC

Mavketl wrote:
saxmaniac1987 wrote:...demanding that their child be of a certain race.

That would be impressive, if they determined the race of their child with sheer willpower.


Heh. Whoops.
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Re: Rant Thread - The Spies of Faith

Postby Zarq » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:21 pm UTC

GraphiteGirl wrote:
Zarq wrote:@GG: I see the difference, I just don't find it significant. Neither is someting the parents should decide about.

Oh, none of it is something the parents should decide about. But it's more understandable/justifiable for your parents to encourage you to date someone of similar intelligence than someone of similar race (at least in my very personal opinion). I think that's what podbay was saying - she'd be hoping to see signs of intelligence in her potential kids' potential SOs.


There's more to race than just skin colour. There's different customs, religion, parents who might be really traditional and may cause a problem,...
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Re: Rant Thread - The Spies of Faith

Postby GraphiteGirl » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:23 pm UTC

Oh, with our respective family backgrounds, she and I both know that, I assure you.
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Re: Rant Thread - The Spies of Faith

Postby Zarq » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:25 pm UTC

GraphiteGirl wrote:Oh, with our respective family backgrounds, she and I both know that, I assure you.


Which makes the fact that you still find racism more unjustified than elitism all the more hypocritical.
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Re: Rant Thread - The Spies of Faith

Postby Oregonaut » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:26 pm UTC

The same way I'd find murder more unjustifiable than theft.
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Re: Rant Thread - The Spies of Faith

Postby Mavketl » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:29 pm UTC

Zarq wrote:
GraphiteGirl wrote:
Zarq wrote:@GG: I see the difference, I just don't find it significant. Neither is someting the parents should decide about.

Oh, none of it is something the parents should decide about. But it's more understandable/justifiable for your parents to encourage you to date someone of similar intelligence than someone of similar race (at least in my very personal opinion). I think that's what podbay was saying - she'd be hoping to see signs of intelligence in her potential kids' potential SOs.

There's more to race than just skin colour. There's different customs, religion, parents who might be really traditional and may cause a problem,...

If you take 'race' to mean all of that (customs, traditions, religion, family issues), then I guess it would be a rather fair criterion. However, that's not what 'race' generally means.

Similarly, judging someone on 'intelligence' isn't so bad if you include openmindedness, willingness to listen and learn, willingness to engage in conversation/discussions, et cetera. The point where it becomes unjustified, imho, is if you use a narrow definition of 'intelligence' meaning IQ or 'power for abstract reasoning' or whatever.
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Re: Rant Thread - The Spies of Faith

Postby podbaydoor » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:31 pm UTC

Zarq wrote:
GraphiteGirl wrote:Oh, with our respective family backgrounds, she and I both know that, I assure you.


Which makes the fact that you still find racism more unjustified than elitism all the more hypocritical.

I don't have nearly as many enjoyable conversations with dumb people. I don't actively exclude, it's just that we tend not to enjoy each other's company very much and so we gravitate towards our own social circles. I do get elitist when dumb people are willfully ignorant with no desire to learn more.

You're also acting like I'm going to thunderously forbid my hypothetical children from dating people I perceive to be less intelligent. Nah. I'll probably judge them, but ultimately my kids will pick their own mates.
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Re: Rant Thread - The Spies of Faith

Postby Zarq » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:35 pm UTC

I could go on, but I don't see the point in it. You won't change your view, and neither will I. Agree to disagree?
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Re: Rant Thread - The Spies of Faith

Postby doogly » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:44 pm UTC

Classism is a problem. Classic, aristocratic style elitism, it's a problem. But the elitism you're complaining about is actually something the world needs more of! Actual skill at learning, problem solving ability, so on, is not just some fluffy flavor like hair color. It's pretty much a thing. We do well to value it.
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Re: Rant Thread - The Spies of Faith

Postby saxmaniac1987 » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:47 pm UTC

Zarq wrote:Agree to disagree?


And this, folks, is why I still keep coming back to the xkcd fora.

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Re: Rant Thread - The Spies of Faith

Postby doogly » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:55 pm UTC

Zarq wrote:Agree to disagree?

... you want people to not terribly mind that you're saying they're committing a moral failing essentially equivalent to racism?
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Re: Rant Thread - The Spies of Faith

Postby Adacore » Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:09 pm UTC

doogly wrote:
Zarq wrote:Agree to disagree?

... you want people to not terribly mind that you're saying they're committing a moral failing essentially equivalent to racism?

That's pretty much how society works without us all hating each other, yes.

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Re: Rant Thread - The Spies of Faith

Postby Zarq » Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:10 pm UTC

doogly wrote:
Zarq wrote:Agree to disagree?

... you want people to not terribly mind that you're saying they're committing a moral failing essentially equivalent to racism?


Yep
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Re: Rant Thread - The Spies of Faith

Postby doogly » Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:24 pm UTC

Forgive me if I am not so casual about such things.
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Re: Rant Thread - The Spies of Faith

Postby Oregonaut » Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:25 pm UTC

You're forgiven.
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Re: Rant Thread - The Spies of Faith

Postby Kang » Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:33 pm UTC

Adacore wrote:That's pretty much how society works without us all hating each other, yes.

I'd like to point out that in a modern free society we all have the right to hate whoever we want for whatever reason we want.

P.S.: To make it an official rant: I'm sick of people telling me I was not allowed to hate anybody!

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Re: Rant Thread - The Spies of Faith

Postby bentheimmigrant » Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:44 pm UTC

Seems to me that the whole argument here has been mixing personality traits with intelligence. I would describe inquisitiveness and curiosity as personality traits. PBD mentioned willingness to think and learn - you don't have to be smart to be open-minded. I have good friends who are not at all academic, and we just don't talk that much about science. And if science is all you've got, well then I don't know if I'd want you dating my kid - you're hardly a well rounded individual.
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Re: Rant Thread - The Spies of Faith

Postby Jessica » Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:50 pm UTC

doogly wrote:
Zarq wrote:Agree to disagree?
... you want people to not terribly mind that you're saying they're committing a moral failing essentially equivalent to racism?
But, that "moral failing" is within his moral framework, not yours. So, it's essentially meaningless if you disagree with him.
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Re: Rant Thread - The Spies of Faith

Postby doogly » Thu Sep 09, 2010 6:26 pm UTC

Well, it means something insofar as it effects how I get along with Zarq. I take more than slight umbrage at being classed with racists, but I can still muster up some politeness. That's about it. Politeness is a pretty low level of esteem though.
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Re: Rant Thread - The Spies of Faith

Postby meatyochre » Thu Sep 09, 2010 6:33 pm UTC

Zarq, what percentage of your friends are stupid?
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Re: Rant Thread - The Spies of Faith

Postby Zarq » Thu Sep 09, 2010 6:48 pm UTC

meatyochre wrote:Zarq, what percentage of your friends are stupid?


None, as far as I know.

What difference does that make?
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Re: Rant Thread - The Spies of Faith

Postby meatyochre » Thu Sep 09, 2010 6:53 pm UTC

Perhaps you need to examine your own internalized biases against stupidity.
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Re: Rant Thread - The Spies of Faith

Postby rat4000 » Thu Sep 09, 2010 6:58 pm UTC

meatyochre wrote:Perhaps you need to examine your own internalized biases against stupidity.
Basically what you said is exactly as dumb as "you can only say something about racism if you have friends of a different race".

He doesn't have to examine anything.

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Re: Rant Thread - The Spies of Faith

Postby Zarq » Thu Sep 09, 2010 7:02 pm UTC

meatyochre wrote:Perhaps you need to examine your own internalized biases against stupidity.


Point 1. So because I have no 'stupid' friends, I'm biased against stupidity. I have no different-race friends either, so that must mean I'm racist. I also don't have any gay friends, oh man, I'm homophobic too. I don't have any American friends either, ergo, I hate Americans. I could go on.

Point 2. I never said I didn't have any biases. But I'm not gonna deny that it is similar to racism.
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Re: Rant Thread - The Spies of Faith

Postby broken_escalator » Thu Sep 09, 2010 7:24 pm UTC

My gut doesn't agree with comparing racism to judging people on intelligence. To me, being intelligent is a good quality, and lacking intelligence would be a bad quality. Moreover, choosing not to use intelligence is a bad quality. Race though, doesn't really have a good or bad quality. So to me, it makes sense that someone with the bad trait of ignorance or stupidity would not be as welcome as a normal person. And more importantly, that a person of ____ race is no different than a person of ____ race when judging them as a person.

An example would be that I don't want to be around stupid people. I don't have any opinion about judging a person if they're Aleut or Mexican or whatever race. So I'm not sure I get why judging someone on intelligence is akin to judging people by their race.


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