Turns out Evolution Is A Racist Concept...

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seladore
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Re: Turns out Evolution Is A Racist Concept...

Postby seladore » Wed Jul 09, 2008 2:51 pm UTC

Sartorius wrote:
SecondTalon wrote: Or just that Pork shouldn't be eaten because at the time they didn't have a consistent way to insure the meat uniformly met a certain temperature (bugger if I can remember what and I don't feel like looking it up) to kill off the parasites and such, which is much higher temperature needed than for beef, so it was safer all around to just ban the meat outright?


See, I wish people would look at the bible in more of a sociohistorical context. As far as I know, there actually is evidence of a rather large flood in Israel/Egypt/somewhere around there, and it probably *did* look like the entire world was flooded to those who lived through it, especially because these people didn't have the kind of mobility we have today and couldn't do things like cross oceans by buying a plane ticket.

(This also reminds me of the time we talked about circumcision in my general ecology class.)


The whole idea of the flood dates back to Mesopotamia, I think the Sumerians perhaps**. They lived on a flood plain which would flood catastrophically every decade or so... this got written into their creation myths, and passed along to the regions where the Abrahamic religions formed.

** I think the Gilgamesh story was the first recorded instance of a mythological flood?

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Re: Turns out Evolution Is A Racist Concept...

Postby Yakk » Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:34 pm UTC

seladore wrote:The whole idea of the flood dates back to Mesopotamia, I think the Sumerians perhaps**. They lived on a flood plain which would flood catastrophically every decade or so... this got written into their creation myths, and passed along to the regions where the Abrahamic religions formed.

** I think the Gilgamesh story was the first recorded instance of a mythological flood?

It might go back further.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_theory

(There is not a consensus behind the Black Sea deluge theory).
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Gunfingers
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Re: Turns out Evolution Is A Racist Concept...

Postby Gunfingers » Wed Jul 09, 2008 3:42 pm UTC

I had heard the same theory about the Red Sea, though wikipedia has nothing to say on it so it's probably bunk.

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Re: Turns out Evolution Is A Racist Concept...

Postby ndansmith » Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:12 pm UTC

seladore wrote:The whole idea of the flood dates back to Mesopotamia, I think the Sumerians perhaps**. They lived on a flood plain which would flood catastrophically every decade or so... this got written into their creation myths, and passed along to the regions where the Abrahamic religions formed.

Abraham lived in Ur of the Chaldees, in Mesopotamia (though folks degree about where exactly), before he emigrated to Palestine.

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Re: Turns out Evolution Is A Racist Concept...

Postby seladore » Thu Jul 10, 2008 6:47 am UTC

ndansmith wrote:
seladore wrote:The whole idea of the flood dates back to Mesopotamia, I think the Sumerians perhaps**. They lived on a flood plain which would flood catastrophically every decade or so... this got written into their creation myths, and passed along to the regions where the Abrahamic religions formed.

Abraham lived in Ur of the Chaldees, in Mesopotamia (though folks degree about where exactly), before he emigrated to Palestine.


But way, way after the Sumerians and Babylonians were around. I think the Sumerian empire had fallen by then?

But yeah. I take your point.

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Re: Turns out Evolution Is A Racist Concept...

Postby Dave Rapp » Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:58 am UTC

"See these flowers? What amazing intricacies and symmetries to them. You really believe they were created by mere chance? If we were in an art museum and saw a painting of these flowers, you'd be convinced there was a painter who painted it."

"See this ground? What amazing near-perfect flatness to it. You really believe it's actually round? If we were to walk for miles and miles until you couldn't walk any more, you'd be convinced it's flat."

"See that dying man? What amazing sickness he has. You really believe it's caused by tiny microrganisms? If we had what he had and were dying of it, we'd be convinced it was a punishment from God for sinful behaviour."

"See this paper? What amazing whiteness and flatness. You really believe it's made from a tree? If you walked through a forest and saw the hard thick brown trunks, you'd be convinced it was made from magic."

"See these letters? What amazing symetry and order to them. You really believe they're made wih electricity? If you wrote this out with a pen on paper, you'd be convinced someone is writing these letters on the screen."

Et cetera.
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Re: Turns out Evolution Is A Racist Concept...

Postby Cooley » Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:56 pm UTC

Oh me yarm is that how Trinity wrote those words on Neo's screen?!

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Re: Turns out Evolution Is A Racist Concept...

Postby Indon » Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:41 am UTC

Cooley wrote:Oh me yarm is that how Trinity wrote those words on Neo's screen?!


Do you really think that's a website you're posting on?
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Re: Turns out Evolution Is A Racist Concept...

Postby Verysillyman » Sat Jul 12, 2008 9:46 am UTC

You're all full of shit

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Re: Turns out Evolution Is A Racist Concept...

Postby wst » Sat Jul 12, 2008 10:04 am UTC

Hey wasn't the majority of the KKK fundamentalist Christians?

That grammar up there (and down here) doesn't look right... oh well.
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Re: Turns out Evolution Is A Racist Concept...

Postby Vanguard » Sat Jul 12, 2008 3:14 pm UTC

On: the OP.

...because concepts portrayed in a comic are entirely accurate.
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Re: Turns out Evolution Is A Racist Concept...

Postby Mercurius » Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:03 pm UTC

'Race' is a construct.

Prof Seymour Garte wrote:While the concept of race is of obvious social, historical, and cultural importance in the United States, it remains very difficult to define. In fact, a strict biological definition of race among humans does not exist, and most useful definition of race involve social or cultural parameters as well as referring to specific continental populations such as Europeans, Asians, and Africans. There are no good biological criteria on a phenotypic level to determine the race of any individual, or even to determine with any precision exactly how many races exist.


Furthermore, evolution is predicated around the survival and improvement of the individual animal and its genes, not the overall species:

Racism naturally places the level of altruism at the level of race, which we have already established is an imaginary level with no scientific grounding. Individual-selection seems to be much more scientifically grounded.

tl;dr version: Fundies are stupid and don't understand science, don't listen to them.
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Re: Turns out Evolution Is A Racist Concept...

Postby Mercurius » Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:06 pm UTC

Hmm, for some reason, my Dawkins quote is getting chopped out of the post. Lets try again.

Furthermore, evolution is predicated around the survival and improvement of the individual animal and its genes, not the overall species:

Teh Richard Dawkins wrote:Even in the group of altruists, there will almost certainly be a dissenting minority who refuse to make any sacrifice. If there is just one selfish rebel, prepared to exploit the altruism of the rest, then he, by definition, is more likely than they are to survive and have children. Each of these children will tend to inherit his selfish traits. After several generations of this natural selection, the 'altruistic group' will be over-run by selfish individuals, and will be indistinguishable from the selfish group. Even if we grant the improbable chance existence initially of pure altruistic groups without any rebels, it is very difficult to see what is to stop selfish individuals migrating in from neighbouring selfish groups, and, by inter-marriage, contaminating the purity of the altruistic groups.

...

The muddle in human ethics over the level at which altruism is desirable-family, nation, race, species, or all living tilings-is mirrored by a parallel muddle in biology over the level at which altruism is to be expected according to the theory of evolution. Even the group-selectionist would not be surprised to find members of rival groups being nasty to each other: in this way, like trade unionists or soldiers, they are favouring their own group in the struggle for limited resources. But then it is worth asking how the group-selectionist decides which level is the important one. If selection goes on between groups within a species, and between species, why should it not also go on between larger groupings? Species are grouped together into genera, genera into orders, and orders into classes. Lions and antelopes are both members of the class Mammalia, as are we. Should we then not expect lions to refrain from killing antelopes, 'for the good of the mammals'? Surely they should hunt birds or reptiles instead, in order to prevent the extinction of the class. But then, what of the need to perpetuate the whole phylum of vertebrates?
You know, I'm not really sure what "socioeconomic class" I am. I'm richer than my parents, I don't have a real job, and my mannerisms tend to match up with whomever I'm talking to.

...is "con man" a social class?

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Re: Turns out Evolution Is A Racist Concept...

Postby SecondTalon » Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:53 pm UTC

wst wrote:Hey wasn't the majority of the United States South fundamentalist Christians?


Fix'd it for you. I mean, pointing out that the KKK is predominately fundamentalist Christian is kinda.. unfair to fundamentalist Christians. See, the average member of the KKK is from the South. The average person in the South is Christian, with beliefs that are, comparatively speaking to Christians in the North or West, Fundamentalist.

Then you have the common religious beliefs at the time of the original KKK and it's revival being what we today call (at least the non-racist parts) a fundamental approach to Christianity....

So, you've got a group formed a hundred years ago that's got a purpose of keeping it's beliefs the same throughout the ages, drawing members from a population that's pretty steeped in Christianity.... so, yeah, it's members will be predominately fundamentalist Christians. Just as a lot of Islamic terrorist groups are populated by fundamental Islamists. Doesn't mean they're all like that, just means there's a group of assholes out there fucking it up for the rest of them. What else is new?
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Re: Turns out Evolution Is A Racist Concept...

Postby Mercurius » Sat Jul 12, 2008 5:45 pm UTC

Good points SecondTalon. Extremist viewpoints are not necessarily going to lead to an individual being violent. To build on your analogy, the best asset the UK intelligence services have right now are very conservative and fundamentalist Muslims who, however much they despise the secular values of the UK, hate violent extremists even more. Equally, the violent racists within the Christian Identity Movement are most likely to be shopped out by other fundamentalist Christians who despite their craziness don't subscribe to their radical viewpoints. There is a dividing line between extremism and violence. Its thin, because one does tend to lead to the other, but it exists and should be recognized.
You know, I'm not really sure what "socioeconomic class" I am. I'm richer than my parents, I don't have a real job, and my mannerisms tend to match up with whomever I'm talking to.

...is "con man" a social class?

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Re: Turns out Evolution Is A Racist Concept...

Postby CivilDefense700 » Sat Jul 12, 2008 5:46 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:
wst wrote:Hey wasn't the majority of the United States South fundamentalist Christians?


Fix'd it for you.


And extrapolating on this we can say that living in a temperate climate leads to killing of brain cells, which leads to decreased logic and critical thinking skills, which leads to racism!

It's ok, I can make this joke, I live in Richmond Virginia, the capitol of the Confederate States of America!
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Re: Turns out Evolution Is A Racist Concept...

Postby Indon » Sat Jul 12, 2008 6:12 pm UTC

Vanguard wrote:On: the OP.

...because concepts portrayed in a comic are entirely accurate.


Not a comic.

Religious Tract.

It was written with the intention that it be taken seriously.
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Re: Turns out Evolution Is A Racist Concept...

Postby SecondTalon » Sat Jul 12, 2008 6:14 pm UTC

CivilDefense700 wrote:
SecondTalon wrote:
wst wrote:Hey wasn't the majority of the United States South fundamentalist Christians?

Fix'd it for you.

And extrapolating on this we can say that living in a temperate climate leads to killing of brain cells, which leads to decreased logic and critical thinking skills, which leads to racism!
It's ok, I can make this joke, I live in Richmond Virginia, the capitol of the Confederate States of America!

Personally, I think it's the humidity.
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Re: Turns out Evolution Is A Racist Concept...

Postby MoonBuggy » Sat Jul 12, 2008 6:40 pm UTC

By that logic Britain should be an island of geniuses, and, err, it's really not. Unless rain counts as a form of humidity, I suppose... hmmm...
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Re: Turns out Evolution Is A Racist Concept...

Postby Mercurius » Sat Jul 12, 2008 7:05 pm UTC

It would explain how suddenly we have no summer anymore yet that fact has nothing to do with global warming, according to the ever reliable tabloid press. Immigrants must be stealing our weather, I bet.
You know, I'm not really sure what "socioeconomic class" I am. I'm richer than my parents, I don't have a real job, and my mannerisms tend to match up with whomever I'm talking to.

...is "con man" a social class?

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Re: Turns out Evolution Is A Racist Concept...

Postby 3fj » Sat Jul 12, 2008 7:14 pm UTC

What did they ever do with the London bus they found on the moon anyways...
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