Questions For The World

Things that don't belong anywhere else. (Check first).

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Re: Questions For The World

Postby addams » Tue Jan 28, 2014 2:48 am UTC

firechicago wrote:
Suzaku wrote:There's nothing like that that I've ever encountered in Japan; it's not a Christian country after all.

In fairness, neither is Turkey, but it also has a significant creationist movement.

It seems to be a Mono-Theist 'Thing'.

Having only One God makes people narrow minded?
That does make sense.....Tell EveryOne about the other Gods!

Their Minds will expand!
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Re: Questions For The World

Postby Carlington » Mon Apr 28, 2014 7:02 am UTC

Reviving this thread because I learnt something and I want to check whether it's true.

Here in Australia, we have a Designated Driver thing that's pretty commonplace. If you're the Designated Driver for a night out, you get a wristband which means you can't purchase alcohol but you get free soft drinks. Apparently that's a rarity in the US - is that true? What about other countries?
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Re: Questions For The World

Postby Grop » Mon Apr 28, 2014 7:27 am UTC

This is unheard of here. Businesses aren't very curious about who is driving.

(But it strikes me a good idea).

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Re: Questions For The World

Postby Adacore » Mon Apr 28, 2014 7:32 am UTC

I've heard of that concept as a novelty once or twice in the UK, but I don't know of anywhere that had such a policy, and I've certainly never been to such an establishment. Designated drivers are certainly a thing in the UK, but free drinks from them are not. In Korea, I've not encountered the concept at all, and doubt it exists - the designated driver idea here is a lot less established. It's much more common to either (a) hire a driver to come and drive your car home for you - there are flyers for this all over nightlife districts, especially near the car parks; (b) go home by public transport, then return when sober to collect your car; or (c) drive home drunk - although the police are definitely cracking down on it, drunk driving is still much more common and more socially accepted in Korea than in the UK.

It does, as Grop says, sound like a good idea, though.

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Re: Questions For The World

Postby Diadem » Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:11 am UTC

Having a designated driver is definitely a common thing here in The Netherlands (we call them a 'Bob'), but I've never heard of them getting free soft drinks (or wearing wristbands identifying them as such). It does strike me as a good idea, but what interest do businesses have in making that happen?

Also, how do you stop the designated driver from just ordering soft drinks for the entire group whenever they want some, while getting beer from his friends whenever he* wants some?

* Huh, a case where singular 'they' doesn't work.
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Re: Questions For The World

Postby Thirty-one » Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:25 am UTC

Carlington wrote:Reviving this thread because I learnt something and I want to check whether it's true.

Here in Australia, we have a Designated Driver thing that's pretty commonplace. If you're the Designated Driver for a night out, you get a wristband which means you can't purchase alcohol but you get free soft drinks. Apparently that's a rarity in the US - is that true? What about other countries?


Having one is common enough here (Norway), but they don't get a special wristband.
For very small communities, my impression is that it's not terribly uncommon to drive oneself home, despite having had drinks.
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Re: Questions For The World

Postby JBJ » Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:28 pm UTC

Carlington wrote:Here in Australia, we have a Designated Driver thing that's pretty commonplace. If you're the Designated Driver for a night out, you get a wristband which means you can't purchase alcohol but you get free soft drinks. Apparently that's a rarity in the US - is that true? What about other countries?

Never heard of the wristband here in the US, but it's not uncommon for a designated driver to receive free soft drinks. Not by policy, but by the server's discretion.
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Re: Questions For The World

Postby UniqueScreenname » Mon Apr 28, 2014 1:21 pm UTC

I've seen it on American TV before, but I'm not exactly part of that scene, so I wouldn't know how commonly it's instituted.
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Re: Questions For The World

Postby PolakoVoador » Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:39 pm UTC

Where I live in Brazil, while it is sort of common to designate someone to be the driver, I never heard of any place giving them free soft drinks.

Diadem wrote:Having a designated driver is definitely a common thing here in The Netherlands (we call them a 'Bob'), but I've never heard of them getting free soft drinks (or wearing wristbands identifying them as such). It does strike me as a good idea, but what interest do businesses have in making that happen?

Also, how do you stop the designated driver from just ordering soft drinks for the entire group whenever they want some, while getting beer from his friends whenever he* wants some?

* Huh, a case where singular 'they' doesn't work.


Yeah, I fear people would try to game this system, specially here in Brazil. People around here love to find ways to game whichever system you can come up with, sometimes just for the hell of it.

That's one of the reasons I want to move out of here.

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Re: Questions For The World

Postby addams » Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:55 pm UTC

PolakoVoador wrote:Where I live in Brazil, while it is sort of common to designate someone to be the driver, I never heard of any place giving them free soft drinks.

Diadem wrote:Having a designated driver is definitely a common thing here in The Netherlands (we call them a 'Bob'), but I've never heard of them getting free soft drinks (or wearing wristbands identifying them as such). It does strike me as a good idea, but what interest do businesses have in making that happen?

Also, how do you stop the designated driver from just ordering soft drinks for the entire group whenever they want some, while getting beer from his friends whenever he* wants some?

* Huh, a case where singular 'they' doesn't work.


Yeah, I fear people would try to game this system, specially here in Brazil. People around here love to find ways to game whichever system you can come up with, sometimes just for the hell of it.

That's one of the reasons I want to move out of here.

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Re: Questions For The World

Postby SecondTalon » Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:25 pm UTC

Re: Free Soft Drinks

Some bars give them away, some do not. Some bars only do it on big drinking nights (New Years, St. Patrick's Day, etc). There is no system in place to mark someone as a DD beyond their word. Of the bars that just give soft drinks away, if you're in a group then so long as someone's drinking they don't give a shit - the markup on the $4 beer more than covers everyone's $.04 sodas. Have a coke with every beer for free - they don't care.

While the DD system is pretty ingrained... it's also pretty ignored. Pretty much everyone knows they're supposed to have one or to get a taxi, but there's enough who ignore it and drive anyway.
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Re: Questions For The World

Postby RollingHead » Mon Apr 28, 2014 7:02 pm UTC

I'm in Italy and this is the first I've ever heard about the wristband thing, and I definitely think Italians would go out of their way to mooch the free soft drinks. But people are getting more careful about driving sober, since in recent years they increased the penalties for unsafe driving.

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Re: Questions For The World

Postby addams » Tue Apr 29, 2014 1:02 am UTC

Am I the only person on the Forum that can remember drunk drivers being more than tolerated?
I can. I swear.

Once my cousin, David, was driving drunk.
I was riding 'shot gun'.

He was pulled over. The Police said,
"Go Home David, you're drunk."

We swerved off down the road.
I am a big fan of changes in that policy.

David was dangerous when sober.
He was worse when drunk.

Men would come out of the Mill, after work, drinking a Beer.
They had more Beer waiting in their Trucks.

By the time many men made it Home at night they were drunk.
Restrictions in drunk driving law has changed the US culture.

Everyone drank and drove, then.
Only uneducated, untrained, poorly bred, people drink and drive, now.

Has it been an Improvement?
Yes.

It would be easy to make the argument Drunk Driving caused a healthier happier culture.
It would not be True. People would believe it. Tell a drunk. He can use it in Court.

Glen Beck style, "Look how happy we were!"
We were not all that happy. We drank.
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Re: Questions For The World

Postby PhoenixEnigma » Wed Apr 30, 2014 4:57 am UTC

Free soft drinks and wristbands:

I remember seeing commercials for exactly that sort of program when I was young and not able to legally drink, where designated drivers could get a wristband that would entitle them to free soft drinks all night. Some googling shows this was actually a provincial government program intended to curb drinking and driving in small towns that, as near as I can tell, ended at least a decade ago. It's still common for bars to provide non-alcoholic beverages free of charge here if your driving (or just generally not drinking if you're with a party), but there's no formal program and it's not entirely consistent, though most people still find safe ways home. In more rural locations, it's still pretty common for people to just drive themselves home after drinking, or quite possibly while still drinking.
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Re: Questions For The World

Postby Kewangji » Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:35 am UTC

No free sodas for designated drivers in Sweden, as far as I'm aware. People my age tend to just walk or use public transport to get home. Also I don't think we have the noun 'designated driver'; we just say 'you/I/they (will) drive' or 'who (will) drive(s)?' to indicate that.
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Re: Questions For The World

Postby ajh » Sat May 31, 2014 10:35 am UTC

From my limited experience in Germany, we do have the concept, but it’s just someone from the group not drinking alcohol. A couple of years ago there was a ’Bob’ campaign as well (not sure if it was related to the local public transportation or if if’s the same like in the Netherlands). People appear to be pretty aware of the necessity of a driver around here.

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Re: Questions For The World

Postby onoresrts63 » Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:50 am UTC

I was just wondering. What are the stereotypical views towards the Australians? Something like Germans love bee. Russians are though. Asians study. Just asking :)

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Re: Questions For The World

Postby Adacore » Tue Jun 03, 2014 3:27 am UTC

I'm pretty sure all Australians are athletic beach bums who spend their days drinking beer, having barbecues and surfing.

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Re: Questions For The World

Postby addams » Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:14 am UTC

Adacore wrote:I'm pretty sure all Australians are athletic beach bums who spend their days drinking beer, having barbecues and surfing.

oh.
Our SterioTypes of Ausies?
I have some.

They are all White.
Even the ones that are Not White, are White.

Most. The First People are some White and some Not White.
Some of the White Guys start being Not White. It's complicated.

The simple Rule is They are All White.
Especially around the Coast.

What do you think?
Black American Ausies are White.

I believe it. I think that is a Fact.
Black American Ausies told me so.

I guess that makes me Gullible.
Gullible used to be an American SterioType.
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Re: Questions For The World

Postby poxic » Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:15 am UTC

And they eat this godawful things called Vegemite sandwiches.
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Re: Questions For The World

Postby Giant Speck » Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:15 am UTC

Adacore wrote:I'm pretty sure all Australians are athletic beach bums who spend their days drinking beer, having barbecues and surfing.


You forget they have to battle poisonous snakes and giant spiders every day.
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Re: Questions For The World

Postby Pfhorrest » Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:18 am UTC

Beer, crocodiles, barbecued shrimp, barbecued everything, gigantic spiders, deadly snakes, pretty much everything is trying to kill you... oh I guess that's more stereotypes of Australia than Australians, but the corresponding stereotype is that Aussies have to be badass to survive everything trying to kill them. Oh and they love cricket, I think? And beer. I know I already said beer but goddamn, beer.
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Re: Questions For The World

Postby SecondTalon » Tue Jun 03, 2014 4:34 am UTC

onoresrts63 wrote:I was just wondering. What are the stereotypical views towards the Australians? Something like Germans love bee. Russians are though. Asians study. Just asking :)

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Re: Questions For The World

Postby yurell » Tue Jun 03, 2014 5:59 am UTC

addams wrote:oh.
Our SterioTypes of Ausies?
I have some.

They are all White.
Even the ones that are Not White, are White.

Most. The First People are some White and some Not White.


Don't worry, some of our political parties seem to think this, too.
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Re: Questions For The World

Postby Pfhorrest » Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:33 pm UTC

What do people in places other than Texas think of the use of double modals?

I was just reading the Wikipedia article on Texan English and saw that it describes double modals like "might could" as a uniquely Texan feature, which sounded right to me at first, but then in the list of double modals it included things like "may need", which sounds perfectly natural to my Californian ear and I can't think of how else you might express uncertainty about necessity. (e.g. "We may need to adjust the settings if it continues doing this.") Things like "might could" sound very unnatural to me, but "could maybe" (which I think has the same intended meaning, e.g. "We could maybe meet you then if traffic isn't too heavy", i.e. it might be possible to do, not just that it might be done or it's possible to do) sounds perfectly natural again. Even "maybe could" sounds almost acceptable, though really informal.

Does anyone else use double modals in their local English dialect? (Or other languages for that matter).
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Re: Questions For The World

Postby poxic » Tue Jun 03, 2014 11:51 pm UTC

Your description matches my reactions - "might could" sounds Southern, "may need" and "could maybe" sound like international English to me.
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Re: Questions For The World

Postby addams » Wed Jun 04, 2014 12:00 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:Beer, crocodiles, barbecued shrimp, barbecued everything, gigantic spiders, deadly snakes, pretty much everything is trying to kill you... oh I guess that's more stereotypes of Australia than Australians, but the corresponding stereotype is that Aussies have to be badass to survive everything trying to kill them. Oh and they love cricket, I think? And beer. I know I already said beer but goddamn, beer.

A person needs Beer and a lot of it when the Reality sets in.

You are on an Island.
A Really Big Island.

You can walk as far as you like.
Water with Shark and pretty little Jellies with the most painful sting of any creature on Earth will be waiting for you.

The first White Aussies were BadAss. They had to be.
From what I understand, today they are about as BadAss as New York City Rap Stars.

They live protected from their Environmental concerns by Technology like Everyone else does.
We have Scary Shit, too. Our Technology allows us to Blow by a Bear at 50 miles an hour and Laugh.

Oh! Our bears can do Tricks.
Many know how to push the windows out of a stopped car.

That little Platypus is a Bastard.
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The Aussies win any competition for Scary Outside stuff.

They don't have Crocodiles. Do they?
Damn it! They have Crocs.
http://www.divethereef.com/guides/AboutCrocs.asp

The people back in Jolly Old England KNEW Australia was a Bitch of a Place.
They sent Human Beings there, anyway. People suck!

Is Australia where the Old Saying, "Never a Dull Moment." came from?
They don't have Bear. Do they?

Whew.
Drop Bears have a Reputation that is worse then the Reality.
We don't have Drop Bears. We have Tear the Kitchen Door off Bears.

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Drop Bears. That is Cute.
With all the other scary Real Shit they have,
they go to the trouble to make stuff up for Tourists.

Oh! Oh!
Aussies are Famous for being funny.
They have a strange Sense of Humor.
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Re: Questions For The World

Postby SurgicalSteel » Wed Jun 04, 2014 12:14 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:What do people in places other than Texas think of the use of double modals?

I was just reading the Wikipedia article on Texan English and saw that it describes double modals like "might could" as a uniquely Texan feature, which sounded right to me at first, but then in the list of double modals it included things like "may need", which sounds perfectly natural to my Californian ear and I can't think of how else you might express uncertainty about necessity. (e.g. "We may need to adjust the settings if it continues doing this.") Things like "might could" sound very unnatural to me, but "could maybe" (which I think has the same intended meaning, e.g. "We could maybe meet you then if traffic isn't too heavy", i.e. it might be possible to do, not just that it might be done or it's possible to do) sounds perfectly natural again. Even "maybe could" sounds almost acceptable, though really informal.

Does anyone else use double modals in their local English dialect? (Or other languages for that matter).
Your thoughts match mine as well. If it's relevant, I grew up in Southern California, went to college in Western New York, and now live in Northern Virginia.
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Re: Questions For The World

Postby addams » Wed Jun 04, 2014 12:42 am UTC

SurgicalSteel wrote:
Pfhorrest wrote:What do people in places other than Texas think of the use of double modals?

I was just reading the Wikipedia article on Texan English and saw that it describes double modals like "might could" as a uniquely Texan feature, which sounded right to me at first, but then in the list of double modals it included things like "may need", which sounds perfectly natural to my Californian ear and I can't think of how else you might express uncertainty about necessity. (e.g. "We may need to adjust the settings if it continues doing this.") Things like "might could" sound very unnatural to me, but "could maybe" (which I think has the same intended meaning, e.g. "We could maybe meet you then if traffic isn't too heavy", i.e. it might be possible to do, not just that it might be done or it's possible to do) sounds perfectly natural again. Even "maybe could" sounds almost acceptable, though really informal.

Does anyone else use double modals in their local English dialect? (Or other languages for that matter).
Your thoughts match mine as well. If it's relevant, I grew up in Southern California, went to college in Western New York, and now live in Northern Virginia.

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Re: Questions For The World

Postby Giant Speck » Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:02 am UTC

I say "could maybe" all the time.
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Re: Questions For The World

Postby New User » Wed Jun 04, 2014 6:14 am UTC

"We could maybe meet you then if traffic isn't too heavy" sound to me like an acceptable (but perhaps slightly less formal?) rephrasing of "Maybe we could meet you then if traffic isn't too heavy."

Both sound proper enough to me to be heard in everyday speech, and I have a hard time imagining that any native English speaker wouldn't immediately and unquestionably understand the meaning of both sentences. Eliminating the word "maybe" from both sentences might carry the same meaning, but to me, the word "maybe" emphasizes the uncertainty implied by the word "could". Without including "maybe", the sentence (maybe) could be interpreted as an affirmation of meeting, without any uncertainty of the meeting actually occurring.

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Re: Questions For The World

Postby Angua » Wed Jun 04, 2014 9:10 am UTC

I use could maybe. My dad and his family (all from South Carolina) say might could.
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Re: Questions For The World

Postby UniqueScreenname » Wed Jun 04, 2014 12:11 pm UTC

I know a couple who say might could all the time. I am very not used to it.
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Re: Questions For The World

Postby eSOANEM » Wed Jun 04, 2014 9:32 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:What do people in places other than Texas think of the use of double modals?

I was just reading the Wikipedia article on Texan English and saw that it describes double modals like "might could" as a uniquely Texan feature, which sounded right to me at first, but then in the list of double modals it included things like "may need", which sounds perfectly natural to my Californian ear and I can't think of how else you might express uncertainty about necessity. (e.g. "We may need to adjust the settings if it continues doing this.") Things like "might could" sound very unnatural to me, but "could maybe" (which I think has the same intended meaning, e.g. "We could maybe meet you then if traffic isn't too heavy", i.e. it might be possible to do, not just that it might be done or it's possible to do) sounds perfectly natural again. Even "maybe could" sounds almost acceptable, though really informal.

Does anyone else use double modals in their local English dialect? (Or other languages for that matter).


UK-ian (RP speaker) here.

What sounds natural to me is pretty much entirely in agreement with yours.

One thing to point out. The distinction between what works and what doesn't seems to be when both verbs are preterite-present verbs. These are the verbs which don't really conjugate at all (i.e. "he can" not "he cans"). When one of the verbs is a modal full verb (e.g. need, which does conjugate fully "he needs") or an adverb (e.g. maybe) then it sounds natural to concatenate them.

Preterite-presents are generally weird although I hadn't observed this particular instance of that before.
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Re: Questions For The World

Postby addams » Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:11 am UTC

I picked up and started reading a book that was published in England for an American audience in early 1800's, today.
Damn! That was hard reading.
That was Wordy Reading.

It seems we pared the language down to useable form.
The way I use the language may be Too Harsh.

That book seemed to be full of Weasel Words.
I thought, "If you have something to say, Say It!"

"Maybe Could" and other non-declarative statements, may be a softening of the language.
(shrug) Who has time for that? It seem the Japanese, the Chinese, the Eastern Europeans.

Why do we, or anyone, want fuzzy word combos?
To prevent conflict? Do you think it works?
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Re: Questions For The World

Postby cyanyoshi » Thu Jun 05, 2014 4:35 am UTC

As someone that grew up in Texas, "might could" sounds unnatural to me also, though I've heard some close family members use that phrase. I mostly recognize it from a Jeff Foxworthy routine in which he points out the sloppiness of "redneck" words and grammar. The stereotypical Texan slang is more associated with the older population and residents of rural areas (with the possible exception of largely Hispanic regions). Maybe I just watched too much television as a kid.

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Re: Questions For The World

Postby Pfhorrest » Thu Jun 05, 2014 4:37 am UTC

(@addams mostly)

Modal operators are extremely important to clear communication, and I think they're actually underused and under-appreciated. And that a lot of philosophical problems stem really just from people not keeping moods and modes straight. Of the exact same state of affairs, so many different things can be said: that it is so, that it ought to be so, that it could be so or couldn't be so or couldn't not ('must' in one sense) be so -- all of those either epistemically, 'as far as I know', or ontologically, 'as far as the reality will allow' -- that it may be so or mayn't be so or mayn't not ('must' in another sense) be so -- all of those either preferentially, 'as far as I care'; or deontically, 'as far as morality will allow' -- or that it 'could' (or couldn't or couldn't not) or 'may' (or mayn't or mayn't not) be so to some degree or other, that it is slightly or moderately or highly likely or unlikely (either epistemically or ontologically) or 'better' or 'worse' (either preferentially or deontically). It gets hard to even elucidate some of these distinctions in concise English, or any other natural language I know of, which is why philosophers like Leibniz invented formal logic.

And getting back on topic a bit, it gets even more complicated because you can stack a lot of these. What if you want to say that it's personally OK with you if something is likely to happen but that morality demands that it be prevented from ever happening? It may ('is permitted to') be probable as far as you care, but it ought to be be impossible. It mustn't happen, in a moral sense; but you don't really mind that it probably will happen anyway. It's hard to say that concisely in simple English.

On the other hand, a colleague wants to know if it is ontologically possible for you to make a meeting -- is there anything stopping you from making it? And you want to tell him that it is epistemically possible, as far as you know, that it will be ontologically possible for you to make it, contingent on traffic. And for that, we have the easy "I could maybe make it", which differs from both "I could make it", where there is nothing stopping you, and "Maybe I'll make it" , where you just don't know for sure if you will actually show up or not, whether by choice or by chance. Because even if you could maybe make it, and traffic is favorable so you could actually make it, maybe you won't make it after all, because that colleague is a dick and his meetings are boring and you choose not to go. You still could have gone, so even if you told him with certainty "I could make it" and nothing stopped you but didn't show up by choice, you're not technically lying -- you never said you would make it.

Modal distinctions like that can be pretty important even outside the airy world of abstract philosophical problems.
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Re: Questions For The World

Postby addams » Thu Jun 05, 2014 4:53 am UTC

Jeeze, Pfhorrest;
Are ya' gonna' make that meeting?
Or; Not??
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Re: Questions For The World

Postby Pfhorrest » Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:23 am UTC

addams wrote:Jeeze, Pfhorrest;
Are ya' gonna' make that meeting?
Or; Not??

I won't lie to you and say I will without qualification.
I will say I want to. (Make the meeting, not lie).
I might (make the meeting), but I'm not sure if I will, so I won't tell you I will.
I will say that if it's possible, I will.
I don't know if it will be possible though, so I won't even tell you I can, much less that I will.
I don't know that that it won't be possible though, so I will tell you that maybe I can.
I'll even let you know what the unknown factor that might or might not prevent me is.
Because gosh darn I'd like to, but I just don't know for sure if I can, and thus, if I will (since I want to, and if I want to and can, then I will).
And I wouldn't lie to you by saying something I don't know to be true.
Thankfully I have these nice modal operators that allow me to avoid lying.
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Re: Questions For The World

Postby addams » Thu Jun 05, 2014 5:46 am UTC

That does not prevent you from lying.
You may have confused yourself.

Now, neither of us know if you will make the meeting; Or, Not.

You may not be a good choice, if the meeting is important.
Are you trying to say, "The imaginary meeting is unimportant." to you?

Just say it.
That imaginary meeting is unimportant to me, too.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.


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