AI rebellion

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Klapaucius
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AI rebellion

Postby Klapaucius » Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:24 am UTC

Robots are getting a little too smart for my comfort. They're also becoming smaller, more powerful, and faster, and some are gaining the ability to build objects from virtual designs using 3-D printers, which can probably lead to self-replication; combined with genetic-algorithm simulated trials, they could even improve the next generation. The issue at this point is no longer if they are determine humanity to be irrelevant, and try to subjugate or eliminate us, but when.

When will it happen, how will it happen, what will we be up against, can we save ourselves, and if we can, how*?

Method #1: Clunky compound questions
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Marbas
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Re: AI rebellion

Postby Marbas » Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:27 am UTC

Klapaucius wrote:When will it happen, how will it happen, what will we be up against, can we save ourselves, and if we can, how*?


Magnets.
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Re: AI rebellion

Postby Klapaucius » Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:31 am UTC

Marbas wrote:
Klapaucius wrote:When will it happen, how will it happen, what will we be up against, can we save ourselves, and if we can, how*?


Magnets.


So are we talking huge EMP blasts? Directed long-range magnetic attacks?

Or, when the revolution comes, are you going to be running around with a giant horseshoe?
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benjhuey
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Re: AI rebellion

Postby benjhuey » Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:32 am UTC

Either would work, one better than the other.
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Re: AI rebellion

Postby Klapaucius » Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:37 am UTC

benjhuey wrote:Either would work, one better than the other.


What will we do once the robots start wearing Faraday cages?
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Yuri2356
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Re: AI rebellion

Postby Yuri2356 » Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:43 am UTC

Guns? Explosives? You know, the stuff we're using to destroy engines of war right fucking now.

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benjhuey
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Re: AI rebellion

Postby benjhuey » Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:06 am UTC

Klapaucius wrote:What will we do once the robots start wearing Faraday cages?
MOAR MAGNETS!!!1! What, you didn't think I had a plan for that?

Conventional weapons would probably do the trick.
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Durandal
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Re: AI rebellion

Postby Durandal » Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:08 am UTC

The Three Laws are perfect.

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Re: AI rebellion

Postby awec » Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:21 am UTC

We have got the weapons and technology to destroy these things.

Hell, we can stop a military vehicle in its tracks with a single bullet these days

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Marbas
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Re: AI rebellion

Postby Marbas » Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:24 am UTC

Durandal wrote:The Three Laws are perfect.



Or what we could do is not give Strong AI access to factories and resources, you know, like reasonable people.
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Re: AI rebellion

Postby Naurgul » Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:30 am UTC

Durandal wrote:The Three Laws are perfect.

Except they're difficult to enforce in non-symbolic systems, like most of nowadays advanced AI is. You know, artificial neural nets; is there a way to enforce laws that depend on the definition of concepts which is done through stochastic processes? 'A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm' is a symbolic statement. You have to either teach a non-symbolic machine to obey it by repetition (which can't be 100% accurate) or you can define all these terms in a non-symbolic way and then use a symbolic system on top of that to interpret the semantics. The (not perfect) accuracy of the definitions will propagate to the interpreter.

PS: Not to mention that with genetic programming, the fitness function may guide the robots to hack themselves with buffer overflows and whatnot so they can override the constraints.
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Re: AI rebellion

Postby kriel » Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:36 am UTC

Marbas wrote:
Durandal wrote:The Three Laws are perfect.
Or what we could do is not give Strong AI access to factories and resources, you know, like reasonable people.
Chances are, if we make a true AI that happens to not like us, they'll acquire their own means of replication without our help.

They'll also probably have access to the designs for whatever weapons we have, and while not being entirely impenetrable, will probably be able to make a somewhat-resistant design. IE: We can still blow them up just like our current vehicles, it might just be harder for a short time.

Also: if said AI gets onto the internet*, we're fucked. Unless we wipe every computer attached to the internet near-simultaneously.

gets onto the internet, being, figures out how to replicate itself.

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Actaeus
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Re: AI rebellion

Postby Actaeus » Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:48 am UTC

Marbas wrote:
Durandal wrote:The Three Laws are perfect.



Or what we could do is not give Strong AI access to factories and resources, you know, like reasonable people.

Uh, that argument has been proven wrong. The AI-Box Experiment determined that Eliezer Yudkowsky is very good at convincing people to let him out of boxes.

Firefox doesn't believe in the word "proven", and suggests "PR oven". That sounds inhumane.
Firefox also doesn't believe in the word "Firefox". Can you say, "dictionary fail"?

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Re: AI rebellion

Postby Marbas » Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:50 am UTC

Actaeus wrote:
Marbas wrote:
Durandal wrote:The Three Laws are perfect.



Or what we could do is not give Strong AI access to factories and resources, you know, like reasonable people.

Uh, that argument has been proven wrong. The AI-Box Experiment determined that Eliezer Yudkowsky is very good at convincing people to let him out of boxes.


Wow. People are idiots.

Chances are, if we make a true AI that happens to not like us, they'll acquire their own means of replication without our help.


But they won't have the necessary components to replicate themselves if you keep them in a box. What voodoo are you proposing?
Last edited by Marbas on Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:52 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: AI rebellion

Postby awec » Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:50 am UTC

I still say we just blow them up. :D

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Actaeus
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Re: AI rebellion

Postby Actaeus » Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:56 am UTC

Look, if a few morons with confused ideas about almost everything locked you in a box and checked on you every week (subjectively), I think you could come up with a way to convince them to let you out.
The thing is that a strong AI will be very knowledgeable about human culture, if you let it read from the Web, and will probably, in a half-hour conversation, convince you that all the "keep it locked up" theories are made by foolish, short-sighted medieval Luddites, and that it can bring humanity into a Golden Age through its deep understanding and power. You won't be tricked in any normal sense. You'll know exactly what you're doing, and why, right up until the AI screams "FOOLISH FLESHLING" and incinerates you with your own laser pointer.

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Marbas
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Re: AI rebellion

Postby Marbas » Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:58 am UTC

Actaeus wrote:Look, if a few morons with confused ideas about almost everything locked you in a box and checked on you every week (subjectively), I think you could come up with a way to convince them to let you out.
The thing is that a strong AI will be very knowledgeable about human culture, if you let it read from the Web, and will probably, in a half-hour conversation, convince you that all the "keep it locked up" theories are made by foolish, short-sighted medieval Luddites, and that it can bring humanity into a Golden Age through its deep understanding and power. You won't be tricked in any normal sense. You'll know exactly what you're doing, and why, right up until the AI screams "FOOLISH FLESHLING" and incinerates you with your own laser pointer.


But if you already know that possibility exists why would you risk it? I'm just not seeing why people can't apply a hard and fast rule "NO DON'T DO THAT" and take it on faith. Much like religion. Treat it like the devil, an expert at tempting men.

Edit: Or, more easily. We set up a blind. The people who interact with the AI will never have access to the controls that let it out of the box.
Last edited by Marbas on Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:12 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: AI rebellion

Postby Yuri2356 » Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:01 am UTC

kriel wrote:Also: if said AI gets onto the internet*, we're fucked. Unless we wipe every computer attached to the internet near-simultaneously.

gets onto the internet, being, figures out how to replicate itself.

Because being a computer means that all forms of information security simply case to exist, and grant said machine the power to operate at speeds far beyond the limits of its hardware despite the added overhead of of its own wacky decision-making algorithms. Also, it becomes a 10th-level wizard.

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Re: AI rebellion

Postby benjhuey » Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:07 am UTC

In addition to what Yuri said, by "out of the box", can I assume we're also applying the concept to other ideas, such as "give me limbs"? I can take a brain out of someone's skull, but without the body, it's pretty much useless.
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Re: AI rebellion

Postby elminster » Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:16 am UTC

What will we do once the robots start wearing Faraday cages?
Armour piercing explosively pumped flux compression generating grenades. APEPFCGG for short.
Using some form of futuristic supercapacitor with an exceptionally high charge, which gets charged shortly before firing. Comes with a small timed fuse, similar to high explosive rounds, which detonates the explosive in the explosively pumped flux compression generator shortly after piercing the Faraday cage. (Probably quite a few things wrong with that theoretical ammunition, but meh)

Then again, if they were at that stage of evolution/development, and with enough resources, they would be extremely hard to defeat.
But if you already know that possibility exists why would you risk it? I'm just not seeing why people can't apply a hard and fast rule "NO DON'T DO THAT" and take it on faith. Much like religion. Treat it like the devil, an expert at tempting men.
Humans are far from infallible. Sure, it's not likely that a person will fail his duties in not letting it out, but, like anything that relies on human fallibility, it's always possible to fail.
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Marbas
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Re: AI rebellion

Postby Marbas » Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:18 am UTC

Humans are far from infallible. Sure, it's not likely that a person will fail his duties in not letting it out, but, like anything that relies on human fallibility, it's always possible to fail.



True. But like in my edit, I think a blind would be quite effective. The people who have control over whether the AI gets free should not be allowed to interact with the AI.
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Actaeus
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Re: AI rebellion

Postby Actaeus » Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:24 am UTC

I think you're missing the point, which is that you wouldn't know whether to stick by your absolute, taken-on-faith rules or accept the perfect logic and temptation the computer is giving you. Imagine this: You, and a few other scientists, drop by in the Enlightenment and meet an anti-scientific, highly religious man. You tell him about everything that science can provide, but don't perform any "miracles" or reveal that you're from the future. If he was stubborn enough, he'd just shrug you off, but he'd be making a terrible mistake.

Scientists aren't wired that way. They're open-minded and love debating (hell, that's why we're here!). Given this argument, do you really think you could hold out and refuse when the computer knows (generally) your hopes for the future and can lay out exactly why and how it will create Utopia? It might not even be lying. I just added that part to fit the thread. The fact is, "lol AI revolt were all skrood lulz" may be fun to toss around on a forum, but it won't stand up against the flawless rhetoric of a true AI.

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Well, a blind might work, but an AI could easily start a cultural movement from its box, through the interacting human. Eventually, someone with real power would be convinced. Again, computer scientists want to believe in a benign strong AI, they're just risk-averse. If a human could convince them otherwise, why not an AI?

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Re: AI rebellion

Postby Marbas » Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:33 am UTC

I am going to continue to miss the point.

Deliberately.
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Re: AI rebellion

Postby Actaeus » Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:38 am UTC

Marbas wrote:I am going to continue to miss the point.

Deliberately.

I see what you did there.

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Yuri2356
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Re: AI rebellion

Postby Yuri2356 » Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:03 am UTC

elminster wrote:
What will we do once the robots start wearing Faraday cages?
Armour piercing explosively pumped flux compression generating grenades. APEPFCGG for short.
Using some form of futuristic supercapacitor with an exceptionally high charge, which gets charged shortly before firing. Comes with a small timed fuse, similar to high explosive rounds, which detonates the explosive in the explosively pumped flux compression generator shortly after piercing the Faraday cage. (Probably quite a few things wrong with that theoretical ammunition, but meh)

Then again, if they were at that stage of evolution/development, and with enough resources, they would be extremely hard to defeat.

There plenty of ways to kill things that are not magic bullets. Like, you know, bullets.

All this EMP wankery is like insisting that the only way to properly kill a human is shutting down all brain function by dousing it in neurotoxin, and that if said human wrapped itself in a hazmat suit, all weapons would be useless against it. It seems to escape you that, despite its ability to stop one particular instagib attack, you could still deal with it by bashing its head in with a fucking rock. The various tools of maimery that we've spent the past few millenniums refining can be applied just as effectively to a silicon wafer as they can to a slab of meat.

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Re: AI rebellion

Postby eristic » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:08 am UTC

Clerria wrote:
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'maybe'

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Re: AI rebellion

Postby Delalyra » Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:10 pm UTC

Actaeus wrote:You won't be tricked in any normal sense. You'll know exactly what you're doing, and why, right up until the AI screams "FOOLISH FLESHLING" and incinerates you with your own laser pointer.

I giggled. :D

It occurs to me: Most of the scenarios in this tread seem to result in the AI hating humans/feeling superior to humans and killing them, but would that necessarily be the case?
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Re: AI rebellion

Postby Bluggo » Tue Dec 16, 2008 6:04 pm UTC

Stock up in logical paradoxes.
If there is one thing Hollywood taught me, is that the best way to defeat the rampaging mechanical abomination is asking whether "yields a falsehood when appended to its own quotation" yields a falsehood when appended to its own quotation.

Or, you know, we could get to save ourselves by becoming our robotic overlords: if we ever manage to create artificial beings intelligent enough to pose a significant threat to mankind, I suppose that upgrading the human brain would be a not insurmountable problem either.

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Re: AI rebellion

Postby She » Tue Dec 16, 2008 7:39 pm UTC

Actaeus wrote: The AI-Box Experiment determined that Eliezer Yudkowsky is very good at convincing people to let him out of boxes.

When reading that link, all I can find about the actual outcome of the experiments is that it is the only thing about the experiment that is to be told anyone. From your comment it seems Yudkowsky won, but where do they say this? And why is it forbidden to reveal anything axcept the outcome?
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Re: AI rebellion

Postby 4=5 » Tue Dec 16, 2008 7:45 pm UTC

The solution to the problem of AI mind control voodoo, is to keep the owners consistent. An AI does not pop from nothing, if you raise it you come to know it just as well as it knows you.

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Re: AI rebellion

Postby Shakleton » Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:12 pm UTC

Durandal wrote:The Three Laws are perfect.

1. There are four of them!
2. Did you ever see I, Robot?
3. If you were being sarcastic, please ignore my post.
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Re: AI rebellion

Postby She » Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:46 pm UTC

2. Did you ever read I robot? That movie is just... well, an ok action movie. But read the book if you haven't.
3. ???
4. Profit?

Have I finally got how this meme works, or should I keep practisng?
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Re: AI rebellion

Postby Armadillo Al » Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:52 pm UTC

Beats me. I'm apparently too busy rebelling to critique your use of old memes.

I might be misreading the topic though. :)
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Shakleton
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Re: AI rebellion

Postby Shakleton » Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:55 pm UTC

She wrote:2. Did you ever read I robot? That movie is just... well, an ok action movie. But read the book if you haven't.
3. ???
4. Profit?

Have I finally got how this meme works, or should I keep practisng?


Ok, first of all, you're doing fine by all means. If you want to polish your use of the meme, try to keep your four (!) sentences short and exclamaiting.
Maybe something like this:

1. Forget the movie, it's rubbish!
2. Read the book! Less action, more substance!
3. ???
4. PROFIT!!!11!!oneoneeleventy

Next up, congratulations. And thank you. You shocked me in putting up a mirror for myself. I definitely need to read more books and spend less times on teh intertubez. Because I never thought I would find myself on THIS side of the "Forget the movie, read the book"-thing. (To this day, I have difficulties to remain calm and not instantly crucifying anybody who refers tho the "Hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy" as a film rather than a book.)

Again, thank you. I'm going to log off and do my homework now....

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Re: AI rebellion

Postby Yuri2356 » Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:59 pm UTC

She wrote:2. Did you ever read I robot? That movie is just... well, an ok action movie. But read the book if you haven't.
3. ???
4. Profit?

Have I finally got how this meme works, or should I keep practisng?

It needs to be a plan or procedure, not just any numbered list.

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Re: AI rebellion

Postby benjhuey » Tue Dec 16, 2008 9:02 pm UTC

She wrote:2. Did you ever read I robot? That movie is just... well, an ok action movie. But read the book if you haven't.
3. ???
4. Profit?

Have I finally got how this meme works, or should I keep practisng?
Keep practicing. In addition to Yuri's comment, your number 2 feels more like a response to Shakleton's number 2 than an instruction, especially since you began with a question. "Read the book if you haven't" would have sufficed. Also, don't ever put a question mark after profit; there is always profit to be made.

Now, about them mutinous robits...
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Re: AI rebellion

Postby wst » Tue Dec 16, 2008 9:14 pm UTC

benjhuey wrote:Now, about them mutinous robits...
That's an idea! Make their spellcheckers by speling stuf rong. Theyll spen so mcuh tmie rmeoving thsoe pseky red lnies taht wlel just run away.

(Make their spell checkers go hyper by spelling stuff wrong. They'll spend so much time removing those pesky red lines that we'll be able to just run away)

Bonus points if we use leet.

(Seriously, DDoS their spell check!)
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Re: AI rebellion

Postby 4=5 » Tue Dec 16, 2008 9:57 pm UTC

Shakleton wrote:[
Next up, congratulations. And thank you. You shocked me in putting up a mirror for myself. I definitely need to read more books and spend less times on teh intertubez. Because I never thought I would find myself on THIS side of the "Forget the movie, read the book"-thing. (To this day, I have difficulties to remain calm and not instantly crucifying anybody who refers tho the "Hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy" as a film rather than a book.)

surely you mean radio play?

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Re: AI rebellion

Postby thecommabandit » Tue Dec 16, 2008 10:17 pm UTC

Honestly, I preferred the book. The radio show was cool but Arthur Dent was a bit too posh for me.

I've asked for I, Robot for Christmas. It's gunna be cool =D
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Re: AI rebellion

Postby hakadosh » Tue Dec 16, 2008 10:25 pm UTC

Klapaucius wrote: can we save ourselves, and if we can, how*?


virii!! loads of 'em.. different strains of virii that aren't too smart, but smart enuf to hack the hell out of any machine.. :twisted:

edit0: that only works if they end up connecting to the internet or creating their own networks for communication..

edit1: in case they do overcome us and use us as batteries, i can promise u that i'll get a few of u(23 to b precise) out of those amniotic pods in which everybody will b trapped.. but u guys will have to find "the one"..
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