[SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Monika » Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:37 pm UTC

superglucose wrote:"Cis" makes me think of "cyst"

Well, that's your problem. I guess you will have to travel back to 1991 and tell Volkmar Sigusch that he should not use Zissexualität as the opposite to Transsexualität, even though it makes perfect sense to use the Latin word meaning "on the same side" as an opposite to the Latin word that means "on the other side" / "beyond", and which has already been used in this sense in other words, like Cis–trans isomerism or Gallia cisalpina (Gaul on the same side of the Alpes as Rome) as the opposite to Gallia transalpina (Gaul on the other side of the Alpes as seen from Rome), just because "cis" sounds similar to a not-so-nice word in some other language when appending a letter.

BTW, do you have the same problem when someone calls their female sibling "sis"?

Also, I am awaiting your suggestions for pleasant-sounding alternatives to "cis".

and also it makes the chemist in me very confused.

How so? Are you thinking of some element?
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Vaniver » Fri Aug 26, 2011 2:45 pm UTC

Compare: "That has not been my experience, but I'll watch out for it!" and "That has not been my experience."
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby superglucose » Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:51 pm UTC

Monika wrote:
superglucose wrote:"Cis" makes me think of "cyst"

Well, that's your problem. I guess you will have to travel back to 1991 and tell Volkmar Sigusch that he should not use Zissexualität as the opposite to Transsexualität, even though it makes perfect sense to use the Latin word meaning "on the same side" as an opposite to the Latin word that means "on the other side" / "beyond", and which has already been used in this sense in other words, like Cis–trans isomerism or Gallia cisalpina (Gaul on the same side of the Alpes as Rome) as the opposite to Gallia transalpina (Gaul on the other side of the Alpes as seen from Rome), just because "cis" sounds similar to a not-so-nice word in some other language when appending a letter.

BTW, do you have the same problem when someone calls their female sibling "sis"?

Also, I am awaiting your suggestions for pleasant-sounding alternatives to "cis".

Heaven forbid I dislike how something sounds! Between your insistence that no one ever uses cis in a negative way and your complete dismissal of my dislike of the sound of a certain word I wonder... do you think you see this as neutral?

and also it makes the chemist in me very confused.

How so? Are you thinking of some element?

Whenever I think "trans" I think of "transition" and that's been how I think about it. Whenever I hear the reference to cis-trans isomerism I start thinking about how people's genitals are arranged with relation to their body. I.e. a "cissexual" person would have all their genitals on the same side of the body... as opposed to a "transsexual" person who would have their genitals on opposites sides of the body. I start imagining the stereosexuality and trying to rotate people in my brain to see if they're R or L. I'm (+)Male man, maybe? Or (+)(+) hetero-male man. It's simulataneously amusing and makes me think someone just didn't think the naming through.

If you don't understand why cis-trans isomerism is not exactly a good comparison for sex and gender it's because you don't properly understand what's going on with cis-trans isomerism. A male-bodied man isn't "cis" because his gender and sex are on "the same side." The same side of what, exactly?

It's just a weird term that feels misused and also sounds weird. I see absolutely no reason to get upset by that. Also your comment that I'm whining because obviously I think I'm normal and don't need a term for me is completely out of line.

Vaniver wrote:Compare: "That has not been my experience, but I'll watch out for it!" and "That has not been my experience."

Actually what Monika is saying is "That has not been my experience, therefore that cannot possibly have ever been an experience you've had, and clearly you're just whining and there's nothing wrong at all and you need to man up, you damn cis person."

Personally I would prefer "trans" vs "non-trans," i.e. "people who want to transition" and "people who do not want to transition." Or an even more radical idea: how about "trans-woman" goes away and you're either "man," "woman," or something in between based on how you identify yourself? Especially if "asexual" vs "non-asexual" is an acceptable dichotomy.

I'll also refer you to my previous statement: do you believe it's not bullying as long as someone has it worse?
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby doogly » Fri Aug 26, 2011 4:03 pm UTC

Zeroignite wrote:We need a equally-marked term for non-asexuals.
(Also everyone should read that link because it's excellent.)

Huh. Let me suggest an alteration of one of the charts in there:
Othering:
cis woman / trans woman
Not othering:
woman / woman

I mean, my current understanding is that you would never want to insist that someone needs to keep some sort of "trans" marker around. The article sounds like it is objecting to the person who wants to insist that the "trans" label also needs to exist - if the dropdown menu for gender selection has male / female / trans man / trans woman, they are going to police all the folks they think should be picking trans. I think the optimal response to that person is to tell them to stop that shit.

A male-bodied man isn't "cis" because his gender and sex are on "the same side." The same side of what, exactly?

Ooooh, oooh, I know this one! The same side of the sex and gender binaries! Those things everyone loves so much and thinks are awesome.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Belial » Fri Aug 26, 2011 4:17 pm UTC

Hey guys. Know what this is? The queer support safespace. Know what this isn't? The place to complain that queer people are DOIN IT WRONG.

Cut it the fuck out. Nowish.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby harutake » Fri Aug 26, 2011 4:33 pm UTC

long thread is loooong, so this might have already been beaten into the ground, but I just wanted to point out that in the GLBT community that I'm familiar with, "transgender" is a preferred umbrella term, referring to those who do not express themselves as the gender they were physically born with; "transsexual" is more specific, referring either to someone who's had the surgery, or is planning to, and "transvestite" is the clinical term for a cross-dresser, while "transgender" encompasses both of those and other various incarnations.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Shivahn » Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:11 pm UTC

Zeroignite wrote:We need a equally-marked term for non-asexuals.
(Also everyone should read that link because it's excellent.)
(Also also I think it's why I like the terms "deaf" and "hearing" so much when contrasted against each other (I've started taking an ASL class.) They're equally-marked terms.)

I like that link as a whole, though I've never found the vanilla/kinky dichotomy to be a neutral dichotomy. "Vanilla" seems to imply boring to me.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby PM 2Ring » Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:31 pm UTC

Shivahn wrote:"Vanilla" seems to imply boring to me.

Ice ice, baby.

:)

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby superglucose » Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:36 pm UTC

Trying out tucking. I could probably do this more often... sitting down is something I'll need to practice though.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby PM 2Ring » Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:54 pm UTC

superglucose wrote:Trying out tucking. I could probably do this more often... sitting down is something I'll need to practice though.

Yes, it's definitely an acquired art. Sitting can be a bit tricky at first, and don't try to tuck for long periods of time until you're totally comfortable with it.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby superglucose » Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:07 pm UTC

I'm not quite confident enough to try the "push the testes back into the body" trick so I'm just hodling between my legs until I get tape. I'm thinking of getting some kind of cloth so I don't have to shave my junk.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby PM 2Ring » Fri Aug 26, 2011 6:44 pm UTC

superglucose wrote:I'm not quite confident enough to try the "push the testes back into the body" trick so I'm just hodling between my legs until I get tape. I'm thinking of getting some kind of cloth so I don't have to shave my junk.

Ok. What you're currently doing is not really tucking. And sitting down like that is definitely uncomfortable, to say the least. Please be careful that you don't do yourself an injury.

Taping isn't easy, especially if you're not doing it in conjunction with tucking. And removing tape that's stuck to pubic hair is not an experience you'll want to repeat on a regular basis. :)

The "push the testes back into the body" trick is easy, once you work out where things go. They don't really go inside the body (except in fairly unusual cases), they just sit at the very top of the scrotum in a kind of hollow region of the pubic bone.

I tried to tuck unsuccessfully for years, until I got better information from those threads I linked to earlier. Once I worked out how to tuck I was so happy, but also annoyed that I hadn't known how to do it properly much earlier. For years I avoided wearing tight-fitting skirts & dresses and only cross-dressed in loose-fitting ones. If only I'd known how easy it was! And I must say that it feels more feminine to me (whatever that means :)) to not have my genitalia dangling around between my legs.

You don't need to shave, but it does help to prevent things slipping. Cloth won't stop that. But you do need tape or some kind of garment to keep the tuck in place. Some people can manage that with tightish undies (even a small pair of briefs worn backwards can work). Another popular choice is cut-off pantyhose, ie pantyhose shorts. I sometimes use that method, but mostly I like to use a padded lycra panty-girdle because it keeps everything in place with minimal pressure, plus it adds a few "girly" curves. And you get the added benefit that it keeps your tummy looking good, too. :)

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby apricity » Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:03 pm UTC

Shivahn wrote:
Zeroignite wrote:We need a equally-marked term for non-asexuals.
(Also everyone should read that link because it's excellent.)
(Also also I think it's why I like the terms "deaf" and "hearing" so much when contrasted against each other (I've started taking an ASL class.) They're equally-marked terms.)

I like that link as a whole, though I've never found the vanilla/kinky dichotomy to be a neutral dichotomy. "Vanilla" seems to imply boring to me.
Yes, that. I was really surprised that an otherwise well-thought-out blog missed that. I can't think of a good alternative term though.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Zeroignite » Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:21 pm UTC

I don't think of it as pushing the testicles up/in as much as it is sort of... rotating them around laterally until they end up above the base of the shaft. Surprisingly not-uncomfortable, though they have an unfortunate tendency to slip out.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby superglucose » Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:24 pm UTC

PM 2Ring wrote:
superglucose wrote:I'm not quite confident enough to try the "push the testes back into the body" trick so I'm just hodling between my legs until I get tape. I'm thinking of getting some kind of cloth so I don't have to shave my junk.

Ok. What you're currently doing is not really tucking. And sitting down like that is definitely uncomfortable, to say the least. Please be careful that you don't do yourself an injury.

Taping isn't easy, especially if you're not doing it in conjunction with tucking. And removing tape that's stuck to pubic hair is not an experience you'll want to repeat on a regular basis. :)

The "push the testes back into the body" trick is easy, once you work out where things go. They don't really go inside the body (except in fairly unusual cases), they just sit at the very top of the scrotum in a kind of hollow region of the pubic bone.

I tried to tuck unsuccessfully for years, until I got better information from those threads I linked to earlier. Once I worked out how to tuck I was so happy, but also annoyed that I hadn't known how to do it properly much earlier. For years I avoided wearing tight-fitting skirts & dresses and only cross-dressed in loose-fitting ones. If only I'd known how easy it was! And I must say that it feels more feminine to me (whatever that means :)) to not have my genitalia dangling around between my legs.

You don't need to shave, but it does help to prevent things slipping. Cloth won't stop that. But you do need tape or some kind of garment to keep the tuck in place. Some people can manage that with tightish undies (even a small pair of briefs worn backwards can work). Another popular choice is cut-off pantyhose, ie pantyhose shorts. I sometimes use that method, but mostly I like to use a padded lycra panty-girdle because it keeps everything in place with minimal pressure, plus it adds a few "girly" curves. And you get the added benefit that it keeps your tummy looking good, too. :)

Can you post those links again? Not sure I'm ready to try it yet -.- But worth it!
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby PM 2Ring » Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:50 pm UTC

PM 2Ring wrote:
superglucose wrote:EDIT: Oh, and something that $girl can't really help me with: tucking. Anyone have good tips?

Yes.
Spoiler:
Check out these threads from http://www.crossdressers.com/forums, which is a pretty good site for all kinds of people interested in cross-dressing for one reason or another.

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?41560-tucking
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?59176-The-Art-of-Tucking-v2.0
http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/showthread.php?55475-Tucking-taping-or-gaffing-What-should-I-do

That should give you plenty of reading material for a little while. :)

Here are some short quotes from the first one of those threads.
I decided to make gravity work for me rather than against me. I used the method of lying on the back with the legs going up the wall, raising the butt so the testes naturally fall to the top of the scrotum. From there, it only takes a little gentle persuasion. Once you know where everything goes, it's gets a lot easier.

After a few more tries I could tuck just lying down with my knees raised. I've been practicing a lot over the last few days & can now tuck while sitting up (most of the time), although it still seems impossible for me to overcome the effects of gravity when trying to tuck standing up.


[...] the key to a successful tuck is to pull the empty scrotum back as far as possible. Stretching the scrotum out flat like this "closes the door" and prevents the testes from re-descending. You will get the best results if the general region is shaved, as this helps reduce slipping. (Pubic hair functions as a kind of lubricating surface.)


If you need more explicit information, please feel free to PM me.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby superglucose » Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:15 pm UTC

Whatever. I give up. It's infuriating, frustrating, and for some reason I can't find these magical little holes everyone talks about.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby PM 2Ring » Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:02 pm UTC

superglucose wrote:Whatever. I give up. It's infuriating, frustrating, and for some reason I can't find these magical little holes everyone talks about.

I know that feeling. Having slightly cold hands can help. But not too cold, or you end up fighting the "shrinkage" factor.

Read the descriptions in those linked threads, and give it a try another time. I'm pretty sure that at least one of those threads has a link to a useful diagram of the process that uses tasteful line drawings. Unfortunately, I have no drawing ability, so I can't recreate those drawings for you.

IME, most people who find this difficult are just trying too hard, and expecting the testes to go right up inside them. That's not going to happen, and anyway, it's not necessary. As I said before, you're not trying to push them back up the channels into your abdomen, where they descended from: it's very unlikely that they can go back up there. But there's space for them to sit in at the end of those channels.

I feel a bit uncomfortable giving totally explicit instructions about this in an open forum: you never know who's lurking... I don't want to create a sleazy atmosphere here by talking too much about genital "origami", and this topic is well-covered in those threads, but please feel free to PM me.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Vaniver » Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:46 pm UTC

superglucose wrote:Actually what Monika is saying is "That has not been my experience, therefore that cannot possibly have ever been an experience you've had, and clearly you're just whining and there's nothing wrong at all and you need to man up, you damn cis person."
The point of writing it like I wrote it was so that they would realize that dismissing your experiences was offensive, without you having to point out you were offended, and there's a way to add their experiences to the conversation without dismissing yours. Ideally, that results in less defensiveness all around.

Can't help you with tucking, though, beyond wishing you luck. (Maybe try out a kilt, and see if that satisfies the same impulses a skirt does, without requiring tucking? Or do you like the femininity of a skirt more than the design?)
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Bassoon » Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:22 pm UTC

I'm moving out of this house tomorrow! I'm nearly free!

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Monika » Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:41 pm UTC

I don't know if it makes sense to say more about this. Saying something bad about cis people is not "using cis in a negative way". Also not if it's a generalized negative statement that cannot possibly hold true for all cis people in the world, and most likely not even for all cis persons the speaker has met. Likewise if some racist makes idiotic statements like "all blacks are criminals" or "all Muslims are terrorists" (and I have never seen a trans person make remotely similarly harsh/mean/stupid/wrong statements about cis people) there is still nothing wrong with the words "black" or "Muslim".

So I stand with my claim that "cis is starting to be used negatively" is unsupported, and any suggestions to stop using "cis" for this or other reasons are bad. It will take a lot to convince me otherwise, but you can try.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby superglucose » Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:11 am UTC

I have never said "cis was a bad term" so that's a strawman. I've said I personally don't like it but I'm sure we all have words we don't like.

I have said "be careful not to let cis become a negative term because it's been heading that way in my experience" to which you said "no it's not." You are wrong. I have experienced what I've experienced.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Brace » Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:32 am UTC

But experienced reality doesn't always correspond to objective reality. Take color blindness, as a trivial example. No one is questioning your experiences, but you can hardly use them to directly justify as complex an assertion as you're trying to make.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby superglucose » Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:35 am UTC

That people should be careful with the way they use words lest they become slurs?

Yes. I can see how this is a complex and difficult concept to grasp and how it's going to be so painful for everyone involved.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Brace » Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:36 am UTC

No, that the word cis is actually becoming a slur. It's an assertion which is slightly closer to the ground. Nice dodge though.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby superglucose » Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:40 am UTC

I mentioned that I've seen people using Cis as a slur and you're telling me it's ok because not enough people are doing it. I mention that people should be careful about how they use cis because I see it becoming a slur all around me and no one seems to care. You say to me that you don't care.

Yeah, that seems likely. *I'm* the unreasonable one here.

I also mention that the argument that "cis" won't be a slur until it's used as often as "trans" is as a slur is a load of bollocks. Because it is.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Brace » Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:45 am UTC

There is some fundamental confusion, like a living thing deep inside your brain that needs to be broken. It gives you a seemingly boundless capacity for self-hatred.

Things you have done:

* Put words in my mouth (I haven't said anything about quantities of people doing one thing or another)
* Stated indignantly that people should automatically take your perception of the reality of something as sacrosanct
* Been extremely, violently combatative

Yes you're being unreasonable. You don't even know what reason is. That's probably a big part of why you're always showing off your insecurities
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:38 am UTC

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Please use the space below if you prefer to describe your gender.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Aaeriele » Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:00 am UTC

Monika, superglucose, Kilroy[ZTC], Vaniver - when Belial said "cut it out", he meant it. Seriously. This is a safespace thread, it is not the right place for an argument. Take it to PMs if you wish.

manictheatrefan wrote:If you don't mind me asking, what are you doing in HK that calls for being there in the summer? IMO, the weather's much more pleasant in the winter; it's far too hot and humid in the summer (but I suppose it doesn't really matter because every place is air-conditioned now).


Making a connection, actually. :P I'm in Chonburi, Thailand now (for SRS).


TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:
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That is awesome TGB. :D
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby NovaNatalia » Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:04 am UTC

I know you won't need it, but best of luck anyway Aeriele ^.^ May the results be everything you hope for and more.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Belial » Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:16 am UTC

Aaeriele wrote:Monika, superglucose, Kilroy[ZTC], Vaniver - when Belial said "cut it out", he meant it. Seriously. This is a safespace thread, it is not the right place for an argument. Take it to PMs if you wish.


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Posts: 476
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Bassoon » Sat Aug 27, 2011 4:21 am UTC

Good luck Aaeriele! I hope all goes well for you! :D

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poxic
Eloquently Prismatic
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Location: Left coast of Canada

Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby poxic » Sat Aug 27, 2011 4:39 am UTC

Seconded. May this change be what you hope it to be.

::hugs::
In everyone's life, at some time, our inner fire goes out. It is then burst into flame by an encounter with another human being. We should all be thankful for those people who rekindle the inner spirit.
- Albert Schweitzer, philosopher, physician, musician, Nobel laureate (14 Jan 1875-1965)

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Shivahn
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Shivahn » Sat Aug 27, 2011 4:41 am UTC

*hugs*

Yay Aaeriele!

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semicharmed
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby semicharmed » Sat Aug 27, 2011 5:05 am UTC

poxic wrote:Seconded. May this change be what you hope it to be.

::hugs::


I would like to third this, and also add that (assuming you are able to and enjoy it) I hope you eat lots of yummy Thai food.
Safe travels and speedy recovery.

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Deva
Has suggestions for the murderers out there.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Deva » Sat Aug 27, 2011 5:10 am UTC

Hopes your business will be positive and non-imaginary, Aaeriele. For seriousSRS.
Changes its form depending on the observer.

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Vaniver
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Vaniver » Sat Aug 27, 2011 5:12 am UTC

Bassoon wrote:I'm moving out of this house tomorrow! I'm nearly free!
Congrats!
I mostly post over at LessWrong now.

Avatar from My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, owned by Hasbro.

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Amarantha
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Amarantha » Sat Aug 27, 2011 8:15 am UTC

Aaeriele wrote:for SRS
Good luck :)

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PM 2Ring
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Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby PM 2Ring » Sat Aug 27, 2011 9:58 am UTC

Yay for Aaeriele! I trust that it will all go smoothly and you recover swiftly.

* big hugs *

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Sarr
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Sarr » Sat Aug 27, 2011 6:18 pm UTC

Hooray! Hope it goes wonderfully!
Rakysh wrote:Basically, xkcd is basically for punching into submission the dumb frat guy in your brain.


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