[SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Azrael001 » Thu Mar 08, 2012 6:53 am UTC

Regarding the whole shaving thing. I use one of the Gillette Fusion razors. They seem to work well.

My method is for the incredibly lazy.

Step one: Start having a shower
Step two: Lather with bar of soap
Step three: Shave in direction of hair. Rinse blade. Repeat until mostly gone.
Step four: Shave in opposite direction of hair.
Step five: Flay the flesh from your legs because you've got a million ingrown hairs because you aren't used to shaving them.
Step six: Repeat steps one through five until step five stops being necessary.
Step seven: ???
Step eight: Profit.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby poxic » Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:20 am UTC

Heh. That's what I used to do, until I decided "fuck this", more or less. :)
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Monika » Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:30 pm UTC

Pretty [redacted] is pretty :D .

About not feeling better immediately when starting estrogen and then doubting your femaleness/transness:
I get more and more the impression that there is kind of a trans urban legend going around that within a week of starting estrogen you gotta feel 1000% better or you're not really female/trans.
Apparently for a few people the experience was really like this (insert estrogen => dance with joy, all depression and pain lifted) (which may or may not have been entirely psychological / placebo) and this was then misconstrued into "has to be like this for everyone".
And/or maybe it is part of the "trans narrative" that was forced onto trans women by cis gatekeepers ("not feeling better after a month of hormones? You're not a true transsexual, you're not getting any more") and keeps getting retold, similar to false narratives that only people who recognized their true gender in their early childhood are really that gender.
The reality seems to be closer to this: Hormones work differently for individuals, e.g. depending on their receptors. Estrogen works pretty slowly. After 1 to 6 months most trans women seem to experience changes in the skin, better senses (smell, taste, touch), sometimes less body and facial hair growth, and of course breast growth, many also seem to cry more (indicating that testosterone inhibits crying) and some have changes in their emotions or how clearly they can feel their emotions. If these changes after some months feel good: You are most certainly a woman. If this feels all wrong and terrible: Yeah, then this may actually have been a mistake, stop taking them, find out what it really is you want. But if you are feeling nothing yet? Well, you're feeling nothing yet. So there is no indicator that anything is wrong. It's not an indicator that you must be a man.

*girlhugs*

Also, on the PhD thing: Before I wrote my master thesis I was planning to do a PhD. After barely finishing my thesis (albeit with a good grade) I knew it would be murderous. Luckily I got this revelation before starting a PhD program. I think I would not have had the courage to abort it.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby PM 2Ring » Fri Mar 09, 2012 2:10 pm UTC

Monika wrote:Pretty [redacted] is pretty :D .

About not feeling better immediately when starting estrogen and then doubting your femaleness/transness:
I get more and more the impression that there is kind of a trans urban legend going around that within a week of starting estrogen you gotta feel 1000% better or you're not really female/trans.

[...]

The reality seems to be closer to this: Hormones work differently for individuals, e.g. depending on their receptors. Estrogen works pretty slowly. After 1 to 6 months most trans women seem to experience changes in the skin, better senses (smell, taste, touch), sometimes less body and facial hair growth, and of course breast growth, many also seem to cry more (indicating that testosterone inhibits crying) and some have changes in their emotions or how clearly they can feel their emotions. If these changes after some months feel good: You are most certainly a woman. If this feels all wrong and terrible: Yeah, then this may actually have been a mistake, stop taking them, find out what it really is you want. But if you are feeling nothing yet? Well, you're feeling nothing yet. So there is no indicator that anything is wrong. It's not an indicator that you must be a man.

*girlhugs*


What the aardvark person said, especially the stuff in bold. Taking estrogen won't necessarily instantly make you feel better if you are trans, but if you aren't trans then taking estrogen will probably feel wrong. But even that's not a sure thing, since some people feel bad simply because of the reduction of libido that estrogen often causes, especially when your body is still getting used to it.

The rest of this post is not aimed at [redacted], or anyone in particular, it's just a general ramble on MTF, estrogen and transitioning.

From my reading of MTF estrogen experience, people who want to take estrogen usually don't mind libido loss since they are happy that their body is less likely to remind them of its maleness. When you suffer badly from gender dysphoria, a reduction in the horrible dysphoric feelings is a wonderful thing, and libido is a much lower priority.

And even if someone on estrogen decides that they don't like the loss of libido and reduced erectile function, that doesn't mean they aren't trans, it just means that transition is probably not an appropriate course for them, or at least it's probably not what they really want to do at this time of their life. Although there are various advantages in transitioning as early as is practical, plenty of people have transitioned at more mature ages. And plenty of MTF people have decided to live full-time as women without actually transitioning via hormones, surgery, etc.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby felltir » Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:19 pm UTC

I love how my legs feel when smooth.

Fuck you, heteronormativity.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Azrael001 » Fri Mar 09, 2012 7:59 pm UTC

Smoothness is pretty awesome.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Monika » Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:21 pm UTC

*sends a cat to cuddle against felltir's smooth legs*
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Shivahn » Sat Mar 10, 2012 4:32 am UTC

Speaking of that, I am getting very good at shaving. I am like a level sixty shaver.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby XJ_0 » Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:26 am UTC

Monika wrote:*sends a centipede to cuddle against felltir's smooth legs*

I swear that I had read that as *sends a c a t to cuddle against felltir's smooth legs* when I had first come across it. Now, I feel confuddled. >_>;;

Edit: I guess cats are now centipedes... v_v;;

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby felltir » Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:59 am UTC

Mhmm. I do so love to cuddle a giant cat/centipede combo.

(Or cat/centipede if I want fur)
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Monika » Sat Mar 10, 2012 1:11 pm UTC

XJ_0 wrote:
Monika wrote:*sends a centipede to cuddle against felltir's smooth legs*

I swear that I had read that as *sends a c a t to cuddle against felltir's smooth legs* when I had first come across it.

That's what I wrote. Is it mod madness again?
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby farnsworth » Sat Mar 10, 2012 5:07 pm UTC

Monika wrote:That's what I wrote. Is it mod madness again?

Yup, and the wordfilters are already taking effect.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Black Dynamite » Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:03 pm UTC

farnsworth wrote:
Monika wrote:That's what I wrote. Is it Puppetmaster madness again?

Yup, and the breadcrumbs are already taking effect.

This confuses me. :? I DON'T KNOW WHAT IS REAL ANYMORE
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Shivahn » Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:27 pm UTC

Black Dynamite wrote:
farnsworth wrote:
Monika wrote:That's what I wrote. Is it Puppetmaster madness again?

Yup, and the breadcrumbs are already taking effect.

This confuses me. :? I DON'T KNOW WHAT IS REAL ANYMORE

Once per year, since the beginning of time (or, more accurately, 2009ish), the people in charge of the forum lose their grasp on sanity.

Or, really, go nuts with the board censoring function, turning otherwise mundane conversations into instant hilarity. It's good fun, it just means it'll be hard to understand what people are saying for a bit.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Black Dynamite » Sun Mar 11, 2012 6:33 am UTC

I feel so awesome!
Spoiler:
Image
My toes are red! Makes me feel so perfectly feminine :D
Red toenails are the almost the epitome of femininity, in my opinion.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Aaeriele » Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:09 am UTC

yay ^_^
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Monika » Sun Mar 11, 2012 3:35 pm UTC

Yay for red toenails :D

I just came across this: http://www.humansexmap.com It's mostly about fetishes (BDSM and others). You cán put pins for "Tried and Liked", "Tried, Didn't Like", "Things I'd Like to Try" and "Strictly Fantasy Only" and it will generate a link you cán give to current or potential partners. Pretty neat!


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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Brace » Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:07 pm UTC

I think I've become a lot more genderqueer as time as progressed, but still dysphoric about my body. I don't really know how to deal with this. Also, I've been on hormones for two years and they haven't really...done anything >_> At the same weight but with 3x the body fat and my face is slightly rounder. My breasts are ~36A and my broad shoulders pretty much negate them. Also in my last few dreams, to the extent I dream at all, I've been gendered male.

In the good news department though. I secured my college internship, and am 3/4ths done with my motorcycle break-in period. I've been playing a lot of Skyrim also. I don't know whether that's good news or bad news. It's definitely been escapism for me.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Van » Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:02 pm UTC

I think Lynn Conway talks about it somewhere and says it can take years for dreams to catch up, long after you've fully accepted yourself. YMMY, I guess, but the subconscious seems to take an awful long time.

I don't think I can remember having a gendered dream, but I still fuck up my, um, 3rd person pronouns. You know, when you're thinking about how someone will react to something you're doing and you mentally picture them going "S/he is ..." about you? For the longest time, I had like a 90% failure rate and was always worried that it secretly meant I wasn't really trans and was actually a creepy omni-weirdo or whatever.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Shivahn » Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:37 pm UTC

Van wrote:I think Lynn Conway talks about it somewhere and says it will take years for dreams to catch up, long after you've fully accepted yourself. YMMY, I guess, but the subconscious seems to take a awful long time.

I don't think I will remember having a gendered dream, but I still fuck up my, um, 3rd person pronouns. You know, when you're thinking about how someone will react to something you're doing and you mentally picture them going "S/he is ..." about you? For the longest time, I had like a 90% failure rate and was always worried that it secretly meant I wasn't really trans and was actually a creepy omni-weirdo or whatever.

Thank you. I really am glad you mentioned that, because I feel that way all the time, for silly little things.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby AnnaArmour » Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:03 am UTC

[redacted] wrote:Also, here's a picture of me at my friends apartment after my trip to the clinic to get a refill on my prescription:
Spoiler:
[img]brokenimage[/img]

A bit late, but your hair is so adorable :)

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby sambot5 » Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:49 pm UTC

This is somewhat of a random post, but I want to thank you all for being the awesome, complex, beautiful people that you are!

*hugs*

It may be because of the nice weather we've been having, but I've been significantly more happy this week. :D
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Vaniver » Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:38 am UTC

So, an Objectivist acquaintance of mine posts to Facebook that Objectivists can't be transgender, and I start probing to figure out why he thinks that way. (He didn't realize at first there was a difference between being transgender and transsexual, and so I was optimistic that I could convince him gender dysphoria doesn't fit into the philosophical box he thinks it does, and then move on.)

But the conversation continued, and I started doing some research, and I came across some unpleasant findings. I'm not sure they're safespace appropriate, but figured this was the easiest way to ask people far better read on transsexuality than I am. Mods, feel free to delete this post if you think it crosses a line.

Trigger warning (suicide):
Spoiler:
This 2004 article discusses that ~20% of people regret changing their sex, and that suicide rates before and after sex change operations may not be very different. (Studies that showed lower post-op suicide rates often lost track of half of their subjects, and if they lost track of even half of those people because of suicide, that means there was little reduction in the rate, or possibly even an increase.) A few other sites claim that post-op suicide rates are comparable to the national average, but don't have ready citations. Have studies been done (since 2004, I would imagine) that don't have similar methodological problems? What are their estimates of sex-change regret and post-op suicide? Do people who have been in T communities for several years know many people that committed suicide after having surgery?
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Aaeriele » Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:01 am UTC

Vaniver wrote:Trigger warning (suicide):
Spoiler:
This 2004 article discusses that ~20% of people regret changing their sex, and that suicide rates before and after sex change operations may not be very different. (Studies that showed lower post-op suicide rates often lost track of half of their subjects, and if they lost track of even half of those people because of suicide, that means there was little reduction in the rate, or possibly even an increase.) A few other sites claim that post-op suicide rates are comparable to the national average, but don't have ready citations. Have studies been done (since 2004, I would imagine) that don't have similar methodological problems? What are their estimates of sex-change regret and post-op suicide? Do people who have been in T communities for several years know many people that committed suicide after having surgery?


Spoiler:
I see a lot of creative rephrasing there. For instance, the headline is "Sex changes are not effective", but what the article actually states is that there isn't rigorous evidence that they are effective... because there isn't any rigorous evidence either way.

Similarly, the quotation about the suicide rate doesn't actually make a link from dissatisfaction with transition -> suicide. Instead, it simply states that there was a specific suicide attempt rate (18%) noted in studies of post-SRS patients. Of course, that may seem high... until you compare it with the 41% attempted suicide rate in the trans population overall. Suddenly, 18% seems a hell of a lot better, if not "good".

Really, this is the crux of it:
Urological surgeon James Bellringer, who has performed more than 200 sex changes over the past four years, claimed that trying to carry out research that involves studying a control group of transsexual patients who were denied hormones and surgery would be unethical.


There's no "rigorous evidence" because such evidence is nigh-impossible to get via ethical means. The article tries to play that up as a "failure", and it's fairly clear that it was written with somewhat of an anti-SRS bias; notice that in the quote above the use the phrasing "so-and-so claimed" (giving it a "but you might doubt" feel), whereas all of the earlier quotes in the article supporting its headline use "so-and-so said".

Finally, do note that said article is over 8 years old, which is a rather long time in the realm of trans health care. Not only that, but if you go to the actual results of the academic review, you'll find that the conclusions the article discusses are based mostly on 7 papers, the most recent of which was published in 1993, and most of which were published even earlier than that - even as early as 1979!

Not only that, but the actual conclusion of the summary is stated as such:

The degree of uncertainty about any of the effects of gender reassignment is such that it is impossible to make a judgement about whether the procedure is clinically effective.


Basically, that 2004 article is trying to make something out of nothing.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Роберт » Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:24 am UTC

Vaniver wrote:
Trigger warning (suicide):
Spoiler:
This 2004 article discusses that ~20% of people regret changing their sex, and that suicide rates before and after sex change operations may not be very different. (Studies that showed lower post-op suicide rates often lost track of half of their subjects, and if they lost track of even half of those people because of suicide, that means there was little reduction in the rate, or possibly even an increase.) A few other sites claim that post-op suicide rates are comparable to the national average, but don't have ready citations. Have studies been done (since 2004, I would imagine) that don't have similar methodological problems? What are their estimates of sex-change regret and post-op suicide? Do people who have been in T communities for several years know many people that committed suicide after having surgery?

Spoiler:
Christine Burns, of PFC, said the campaign group's research suggested that the vast majority of transsexual people enjoyed much happier lives following surgery.

Ms Burns added that the greatest flaws in medical literature about gender reassignment were in those studies unsympathetic to transsexual people. For example, one study was based on a survey of seven transsexual prostitutes interviewed in one gay bar in Chicago.


Suddenly
A 1998 review by the Research and Development Directorate of the NHS Executive found attempted suicide rates of up to 18% noted in some medical studies of gender reassignment.

is not so surprising.

I find the headline "Sex changes are not effective, say researchers" silly at best. It could just as honestly have been the opposite: "Sex changes are effective, say researchers".
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Vaniver » Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:07 am UTC

Aaeriele-
Spoiler:
Thanks for the update. I was aware that the data was old and that care for transfolk has improved significantly in recent years, but it'd be nice to have numbers on how much better outcomes are now. (Obviously, any outcomes measured now are for care provided years ago, but it seems likely that the care has improved gradually, and thus outcomes would as well.)

Halving the suicide rate is a positive step, but the basic question of what transsexuality is (leaving aside other forms of trans for a moment) depends a lot on whether or not SRS 'solves' the problem. If someone's gender dysphoria is replaced by another sort of dysphoria after they have SRS, then that suggests that gender wasn't the root problem; if someone's gender dysphoria isn't replaced by another sort of dysphoria after they have SRS, then that suggests that gender was the root problem. There might be a different treatment that does more than halve the suicide rate (either as a substitute or a complement).

The best I can find so far is a 2009 meta-analysis that appears to only look at both hormone therapy and SRS and which has studies that range from 1971 to 2007. A 2006 study had a self-reported pre-op suicide attempt rate of 29.3% that dropped to 5.1% after treatment (but doesn't mention in the brief whether those are over comparable periods of time). A different 2006 study had no participants express consistent regrets, with 6% reporting occasional regrets.

So it looks like the numbers are trending upward and that SRS helps, but with small ns, no controls, and a lot of comorbidity, it's hard to say that confidently.


Роберт-
Spoiler:
1/7 is .14, so the .18 estimate must have come from someplace else.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Black Dynamite » Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:13 am UTC

Vaniver wrote:So, an Objectivist acquaintance of mine posts to Facebook that Objectivists can't be transgender, and I start probing to figure out why he thinks that way. (He didn't realize at first there was a difference between being transgender and transsexual, and so I was optimistic that I could convince him gender dysphoria doesn't fit into the philosophical box he thinks it does, and then move on.)

I wonder why he thinks that way, as well. Did he give a good answer? For some odd reason, I'm quite fond of Ayn Rand and her philosophies, so I'm curious about your friend's thoughts.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Роберт » Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:16 am UTC

Vaniver wrote:Роберт-
Spoiler:
1/7 is .14, so the .18 estimate must have come from someplace else.

Spoiler:
Sure... I'm just saying "some studies" found rates "up to" doesn't necessarily mean a whole lot. And "some researchers say" or the more sloppy "researchers say" thing for the title... again, pretty meaningless. Guess what? I'm pretty sure I could find more than one researcher say global warming is definitely a hoax. I could write an article "Researchers say Global Warming is a hoax".

My main point was the article was an impressive way of making nothing sound interesting. I have no idea how much controversy there is on SRS effectiveness, and I have no idea what the reputable studies are hinting at for success rates of SRS vs no SRS, but I can imagine getting scientifically rigorous results would be prolematic. Reading that article educated me approximately not at all.

That's all I'm really trying to say.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Amie » Wed Mar 14, 2012 8:29 am UTC

I just told my HR representative to speak to our boss about adding a note on our careers page stating that we're an equal opportunity organization that doesn't discriminate on the basis of gender, sexual orientation, class, race or disabilities.

Considering that I live where I live, I don't see it actually happening but I am keeping my fingers crossed. If it does happen, I will be overjoyed.

(hugs) for Vanvier if you want them. I have nothing much to say about the subject -- Aaeri and Роберт have pretty much covered it, but hang in there.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Monika » Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:32 am UTC

Spoiler:
Further up the thread it was mentioned a couple of times that only 2% of trans people who have SRS regret this later.
That's actually surprisingly low considering that many countries / states require SRS to allow a legal gender change or required so until recently (e.g. Germany dropped the requirement for trans men in 2001 and for trans women only in 2011). So some trans people who were not actually dysphoric about their genitals and would have been fine / better off with just hormons or just some types of surgery but without others were forced to get SRS.
Some people still being depressed after SRS: No surprise. Those who choose to live openly or have no option of stealth are still heavily discriminated against regarding jobs, housing, public bathroom usage, everything. Who wouldn't get depressed unemployed and homeless, possibly forced into survival sex work? And even those who can and do live stealth are often rejected by their families of origin, that's not going to help with depression, either. Nobody said SRS is magically going to resolve all problems.

(The following is not really related to SRS, but to transitioning regrets.)
I am going to write this outside a spoiler because it's hopeful. Not all people who detransition are "regretters". This was written by a German FTMTF trans woman (in her publicly available profile, but I don't find the link right now, didn't bookmark it when I read it):
"I am a special kind of trans woman. 10 years ago I transitioned to live as a man. I had a mastectomy and took testosterone.
Now I live as a woman again. Yes, I have to shave every day, but I am fine with that. My voice is lower, but I like it as a deep female voice. I am happy to be a woman again, but I have no regrets about having lived as a man."

The following is an Ayn Rand rant :P
Spoiler:
Some Ayn Rand fans in college physics classes have claimed that quantum physics must be wrong because it supposedly violates Rand's A=A law.
I am not sure if it is worth the time to argue with them about anything, let alone transsexuality and transgenderism.
I can imagine the line of argument: "You have $genital, therefore you are objectively a [wo]man. That's it."
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Brace » Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:29 pm UTC

Black Dynamite wrote:
Vaniver wrote:So, an Objectivist acquaintance of mine posts to Facebook that Objectivists can't be transgender, and I start probing to figure out why he thinks that way. (He didn't realize at first there was a difference between being transgender and transsexual, and so I was optimistic that I could convince him gender dysphoria doesn't fit into the philosophical box he thinks it does, and then move on.)

I wonder why he thinks that way, as well. Did he give a good answer? For some odd reason, I'm quite fond of Ayn Rand and her philosophies, so I'm curious about your friend's thoughts.


Reading Atlas Shrugged was actually one of the things that kicked me into beginning transition. She just did a great job of making me feel like it was ok to care about myself and make decisions that benefited only me, even when society might want me to do otherwise; IE, that I had no obligation to destroy myself for the sake of an unjust society. That being said, anyone who self-describes as an Objectivist probably doesn't have it all together. Ayn Rand is fun, but hardly rigorous philosophy, and is wrong on a number of issues in very obvious ways. Although, I'd be suspicious of anyone who reads a single book and takes it to irrefutably encapsulate every core truth of metaphysics, morality, and human existence *cough*
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby PM 2Ring » Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:56 pm UTC

Black Dynamite wrote:My toes are red!

Hey, that's my colour.

Black Dynamite wrote: I'm quite fond of Ayn Rand and her philosophies,

We can still be friends.

:)

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Hyphe » Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:11 pm UTC

So yesterday someone who really ought to know better teased me (light-heartedly) about using "feminine wiles", and that kicked of a chain of events that's led to me feeling some pretty horrible body hate. (Spoilered for ranting about body parts and how they are wrong: might be triggering for some, I don't know. Better safe than sorry!)
Spoiler:
I'm a female-bodied genderqueer person. I have a very feminine body shape and face; wide hips, narrow shoulders, delicate features, and a fat arse fabulous booty. I try to dress in masculine styles (heavens, I do love shirts and waistcoats), and I have short hair and thankfully small breasts, but when it comes down to it, I look like a woman. Sometimes a very pretty one, sometimes a queer one, but always a woman.

I want so much to have an in-between body. I want narrower hips and wider shoulders and a stronger chin; I have a terrible, terrible case of penis envy. But I still want my voice to stay as it is, and my chest, and my vagina. I want more hair on my forearms and legs, but not on my face or my chest. If I can't have that, I'd rather have a standard masculine body than this feminine one. But I know none of these things are achievable without inventing the super-advanced-science body-altering Androtron 3000. I know FtM SRS is iffy at best, and I am suspicious that I would be allowed to keep the parts of my genitals that I like. I am unsure if male hormones would help or hinder my body image, and given how many issues I've had because of female hormones I'm inclined to stay the hell away.

Every day I look into the mirror and I see a girl. Every damn day. And I have no idea what to do about it.


In other news, has the '**misogyny not found**' word filter always been there, or is it a leftover from Mod Madness?

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Enuja » Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:33 pm UTC

Hyphe, I'm not as gender-queer as you are, but I am a female-bodied person who loves to play with gender, and it sounds like we've got somewhat similar bodies. My advice: get a buzz cut and wear a strap-on designed for everyday wear. I shave my head, and at 2-4 weeks after shaving, I get "sir'd" the most. Last week I was wearing a big wool skirt (I love skirts, and think both men and women should wear them), a collared shirt, and my ex told me I looked extremely queer and gender fuck, not at all feminine. A short "pixie" hair cut looks feminine to a lot of people, and weird people of all stripes shave their heads (somehow, I just don't look like an old person shaving because of a receding hairline), but in our society it's men who routinely wear buzz cuts. Think about the few women (without kinky hair) you've seen with buzz cuts: you remember them, and they look different. Since it's so weird for women to have buzz cuts, when people just glance at me with a buzz cut, despite the fact that I'm 5'2" and have a large ass, they sometimes simply categorize me as male.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Jessica » Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:39 pm UTC

*hugs* Hyphe.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Kewangji » Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:03 pm UTC

*offers hugs*

The **misogyny not found** filter comes from years back. Not a mod madness, but just some show and a modperson (Meaux_Pas, I think) said ze'd be extremely happy if ze never saw that phrase again. So, it happened.

(Also hi everybody, I have breasts now; I don't think I told this thread.)
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Vaniver » Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:28 pm UTC

Black Dynamite wrote:I wonder why he thinks that way, as well. Did he give a good answer? For some odd reason, I'm quite fond of Ayn Rand and her philosophies, so I'm curious about your friend's thoughts.
Spoiler:
A bit of background: this friend is young, and gives a bit more respect to the opinion of famous Objectivists than I would like. My understanding is his reason is twofold:

First, reality is absolute. Attempts to rebel against nature to impose an ideal world end poorly- Objectivists instead focus on acting within and controlling nature.

Second, people gain knowledge through experience. A man cannot truthfully say they 'feel like a woman' inside because they haven't experienced how it feels to be a woman- they don't know.

Both of those strike me as weak objections. It's not clear to me that sex changes are "rebelling against" rather than "acting within" nature, and Peikoff (Ayn Rand's intellectual heir) claims here that sex is 'either-or,' which doesn't appear absolutely true. As well, the experience of gender dysphoria seems suggestive enough for SRS to be the default treatment.

That's another issue with Objectivist thought, which sometimes helps but in this case hurts: Objectivism likes to focus on the normal, make decisions that respect the normal, and then maybe extend the reasoning to everyone, rather than doing casuistry based on the abnormal. (The concept is called the "lifeboat fallacy," and is discussed on page 44 of The Virtue of Selfishness.) And so you get things like "men and women are well-defined, distinct concepts"- which is true for at least 95% of the population, but is not true for the remainder. But many prominent Objectivists seem to take an unfriendly view of the remainder- Peikoff says, in the linked podcast, that people who want sex changes are freaks. Which is correct if you use 'freak' to mean 'abnormal' but downright unfriendly if you use it to mean 'monster'.

There is decent reason to hope things will change- Rand saw homosexuals as deviants but came around eventually, and it's so a similar policy change could happen for transfolk.

But it's also worth pointing out that Objectivists- as in, people associated with the Ayn Rand Institute- are just a subset of fans of Ayn Rand, as there have been several splits over the years because of personal or philosophical disputes, but I'm not seeing any mention of trans issues over at the Atlas Society.


To those not interested in wading through the spoilers, I haven't come across any philosophical arguments by Rand or successors that prevent trans acceptance, but instead the Objectivists I'm discussing it with seem to have a misunderstanding of what causes trans, which is compounded by the difficulty of convincing anyone who has spent some time fortifying their intellectual positions.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Azrael001 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 5:52 pm UTC

Why haven't we just got body swapping technology already? All we need to do is learn how to fix severed spinal cords.
23111

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Monika » Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:40 pm UTC

What filters into misogyny not found?

Kewangji wrote:(Also hi everybody, I have breasts now; I don't think I told this thread.)

Where did you get those from?
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby meridian » Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:48 pm UTC

Spoilered for those who don't want to see it again...
Spoiler:
F e m i n i n e w i l e s And a couple other things I don't remember right now. Oh! P u s s y p o w e r!
Spoiler:
People don't really go to heaven when they die. They are taken to a special room and burned.
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