[SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Brace » Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:46 pm UTC

I don't think I like that person. They're abusing existential thought, denigrating science, and accepting dogmatically a number of concepts which are literally nonsense, forcing everything into a context which is similarly nonsense, and displacing concepts of substance. Even then, the most agitating thing is that they're still mostly right, thus giving their words just enough utility to perpetuate their existence along with the many fallacies they carry.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Aaeriele » Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:47 pm UTC

Brace wrote:I don't think I like that person. They're abusing existential thought, denigrating science, and accepting dogmatically a number of concepts which are literally nonsense, forcing everything into a context which is similarly nonsense, and displacing concepts of substance. Even then, the most agitating thing is that they're still mostly right, thus giving their words just enough utility to perpetuate their existence along with the many fallacies they carry.


Um, huh? I didn't get that at all from the linked article.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Brace » Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:10 pm UTC

Treating any medical problem is a choice. Any action at all is a choice. We don't continuously assert to diabetics that insulin shots are a product of their own agency. We don't assert to them that their having diabetes is irrelevant to this choice. Most of all, we don't assert having diabetes is ultimately synonymous with their decision to receive insulin shots, rather than with actually having diabetes. That's faulty reasoning, and the emphasis on choice is absurd. The same decision would be indicated whether the matter was a choice or not, which makes the emphasis on choice at best redundant, and in practice, given that the emphasis is used to try and erode the context, makes it a precursor to fallacy.

The entire discussion of gender is a red herring. In all likelihood it is a nonsense concept. If gender is truly a boundless, subjective concept, why do we talk about it so much? Why do we constantly try to create taxonomies and comparisons and find implications and causal chains in a subject which, by fundamental premise, is infinite and infinitely varied?

Scare quotes around terms like dysphoria and brain sex.

A good point is made about probability. If you are considering that you might be trans, the odds are no longer 1:99. It is sort of like poker. The raw odds of someone having a given hand may be 1:1,326. If you are heads up with someone on the river, with a certain board, facing a certain bet, the odds may be 1:3. That's fine.

The logic about subjective experiences; they are factual because they are experienced; is also fine. It just doesn't clarify as much as the author thinks.

The author just seems more concerned with theory than with the actual problem. They are eager to denigrate certain perspectives and to champion others even when it is redundant, irrelevant, a distraction, or a generalized antagonism towards facts; towards even the concept of facts. The fact that people are ultimately responsible for their decisions doesn't negate the existence of the context for those decisions, that context is never fully subjective, and even though we can't ever remove someone's agency and force a decision on them, we can still determine how a rational actor ought to behave given a certain set of circumstances.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Noc » Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:51 pm UTC

Eh. Spoilered because a safespace probably isn't the place for this argument, but:
Spoiler:
I don't...get any of that impression either? The thrust of the article, as I read it, is this:

Gender and transness are experiential things. Like, if you stub your toe you don't try and decide whether or not your foot "actually" hurts by comparing your experience to extant narratives and trying to make sure you aren't confusing what might be pain for something else. You know you are experiencing pain because it hurts, because that's how pain works.

Similarly, you know that you're trans (or that you're a gender) because you feel like you are, because that's how that works. Which makes the question not one of diagnosis, of "Am I really this thing?" but of "Okay, so I feel like this. What should I do about it?"

That...doesn't seem like an abuse of existentialism to me, or a dismissal of factuality. Or particularly denigratious towards science: the impression I got on that front is that they weren't saying "It's all nonsense!" so much as "don't worry too much about needing it to validate your experience." With the same analogy, if you were experiencing physical pain you wouldn't worry so much about checking to make sure your neurochemical levels were consistent with those usually associated with pain, or that you were exhibiting other common secondary physical responses. Research into this physiology is totally important and useful, but it's not the important part of deciding that something hurts and that you should do something about it.

And given that, the emphasis on choice seems to be about the second half of the question mentioned above: of shifting the question from "am I trans?" to "what should I do about my particular transness?"

. . .

And it is pretty valid to be put off by the way an article is written -- and I can definitely see myself in a similar position of drawing associations to similarly-written articles that have displayed those kinds of behavior. But while the writing style does make me squint a little bit, I don't think your accusations are necessarily present in the article? And the core thrust of the post seems fairly sound to me, as opposed to being ridiculous and fallacious and arriving at a reasonable position from the wrong direction by pure coincidence.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Brace » Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:03 pm UTC

The core thrust is sound. That doesn't mean these other things aren't present.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby NovaNatalia » Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:54 pm UTC

Shivahn wrote:I was linked this, a sort of long blog post on what breaks down to trans questioning, and thought I'd share it.


It's a shame she's leaving FtB; I've been reading her blog for a year now and I've loved it.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Menacing Spike » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:27 pm UTC

This might be of interest to you guys: there's a new LGBT board on 4chan:

http://boards.4chan.org/lgbt

They seem to actually discuss LGBT stuff without much trolling. That said, I can't really gauge the quality of the discussion, not knowing dick about those issues. I will now proceed to depart your safespace. G'bye people.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Kewangji » Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:34 pm UTC

I looked at a few threads there. Lots of hating on alphabet soup people; would not recommend.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Brace » Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:03 am UTC

This post had objectionable content.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Kewangji » Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:20 am UTC

Spoiler:
Things I saw when I went in there just now: transphobia of too many kinds to count, sexism, people petitioning to ban words like pansexual and asexual. Also some bonus regular misogyny.

Please don't tell me I didn't see what I saw? Places like those are fast moving and while the front page might have been filled with just one kind of hate when you looked at it, this doesn't mean the kinds I saw aren't there. Thank you.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby rath358 » Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:56 am UTC

Menacing Spike wrote:This might be of interest to you guys: there's a new LGBT board on 4chan:

http://boards.4chan.org/lgbt

They seem to actually discuss LGBT stuff without much trolling. That said, I can't really gauge the quality of the discussion, not knowing dick about those issues. I will now proceed to depart your safespace. G'bye people.

Huh.
My impression: not bad, for 4chan. Some decent threads in thee, if you ignore the trolls.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby SecondTalon » Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:18 am UTC

Brace wrote:This post had objectionable content.

Ouch. That's... perhaps a bit uncalled for.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby philsov » Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:11 am UTC

Kewangji wrote:
Spoiler:
Things I saw when I went in there just now: transphobia of too many kinds to count, sexism, people petitioning to ban words like pansexual and asexual. Also some bonus regular misogyny.

Please don't tell me I didn't see what I saw? Places like those are fast moving and while the front page might have been filled with just one kind of hate when you looked at it, this doesn't mean the kinds I saw aren't there. Thank you.


Heh, the dynamic is certainly shifting. When I first poked my head in there, literally 75% of the topics were regarding a/pan/tran-sexuals -- mostly started by a/pan/tran-sexuals; all the trolls seemed to be merely in reply posts. It's partially the fault of the 4chan format with the quick-purging; it isn't exactly the place where everyone can have an individual discussion. So in addition to the standard level of noise, there also seems to be some fighting for signal between the LGBQQ and the TIA.

Brace wrote:This post had objectionable content.


This thread certainly features more than 5 gay men and from a quick scroll seems very trans-dominant (and trans-positive) in terms of posts/discussion.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Puppyclaws » Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:08 pm UTC

Brace wrote:This post had objectionable content.


That is really in the spirit of a safespace thread, innit?

This is why I don't feel comfortable in queer spaces generally. GWM: We aren't queer anymore, apparently.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Monika » Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:23 pm UTC

Brace has a point though. A lot of spaces or organizations call themselves LGBT but only care about the LG. We B people are mostly just ignored or considered too straight to be queer, but trans people face transphobia in spaces that should be there to provide safety and support. This thread and the accompanying #xkcd-q chat are a notable exception. Which may be because there are a lot of trans people.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Puppyclaws » Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:52 pm UTC

I can't speak to other people's experiences. I certainly hear that complaint a lot and so there must be many places where it is true.

I would say, that as a GWM, I feel that what I get from e.g. the queer student group at my university is more judgment than support and that I am viewed with a lot of suspicion. I am "them" not "us." I would also say that I have a similar experience as the only GWM on the LGBT research team here. In my high school, the queer student organization was really for rad-queer-trans people and their concerns. In general it has been my experience that LGBT is never accurate as a term for these organizations; somebody is always left out, be it trans people, gay people, bi people.... Unfortunate.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby apricity » Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:45 am UTC

This thread is designed to be a Safespace for anybody who identifies as either non-cisgender, non-heterosexual, or questioning. Negative discussion about people from any of these groups is not Safespace-appropriate. I apologize for the slowness to moderate.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby apricity » Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:26 am UTC

Removing my mod-hat to say this: This thread is meant to be a space where people of all different gender identities and sexual orientations can come together and not leave anyone out. People from every group are welcome here. Please let's make sure there is no inter-group debate or argument going on here. I can say without a doubt that this thread has made me a LOT more inclusive of all people. When I think about my community, I think about every letter now, when before becoming involved in this thread I was highly focused on LGB. I hope that others have had the same experience of feeling inclusive and included.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby felltir » Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:06 am UTC

I'm considering getting my titles changed to Mx., as a sign of support for people who can't accept any of the standard gendered titles.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Bassoon » Sun Mar 24, 2013 4:21 pm UTC

That...is a very, very cool idea. I might have to start using that title myself.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Shivahn » Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:31 pm UTC

That is cool.

I have joked that the reason I want a PhD is so I can use "Dr." instead of a gendered title.

I mean, that's not the reason, obviously. But it's not really a joke. I can't wait to never have to do that again.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Kewangji » Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:42 am UTC

I saw a kickstarter project that seems pretty awesome and relevant to this thread. It is called TransWaves Podcast: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/454 ... es-podcast

(I can't view the video on my broken computer, but the text seemed promising.)
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Monika » Thu Mar 28, 2013 1:23 pm UTC

That looks like a good and important thing.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA needle-pulled thing - Queer Support

Postby Ox_ » Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:22 pm UTC

This post had objectionable content.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA needle-pulled thing - Queer Support

Postby PM 2Ring » Sun Mar 31, 2013 6:12 am UTC

Ox_ wrote:This post had objectionable content.


This is possibly not an appropriate topic for discussion in this safespace.

Personally, I've never found the lyrics of that song particularly offensive towards gay &/or effeminate men, since we're supposed to get the idea that the character saying those words is a bit of a bozo. But I guess that some people may be uncomfortable with those lyrics, since any use of derogatory terms may be seen as promoting those terms. And people don't always hear song lyrics in context, or analyze song meanings.

OTOH, the lyrics of Money For Nothing may be offensive to guys that do installations of custom kitchens, colour TVs, etc: not all manual workers are sexist, homophobic morons that see everything in financial terms. But some of them certainly are, such as the guy that inspired this song. See Wikipedia for details.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA needle-pulled thing - Queer Support

Postby apricity » Sun Mar 31, 2013 3:44 pm UTC

This is the end of that conversation. Not Safespace-appropriate. If you would like to answer, please take it to PMs or a different thread.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby superglucose » Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:01 pm UTC

Do any other MtF transfolk feel like they're letting their family down? I can't help but shake the feeling that I'm the firstborn son and they've come to rely on me for that. Like... I'm supposed to push on the family name, I'm my grandfather's first grandson... yeah, that sort of thinking is certainly patriarchal but at the same time it's definitely there and I feel like I *could* just grit my teeth and bear it and be the son/grandson they want.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Aaeriele » Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:29 pm UTC

superglucose wrote:Do any other MtF transfolk feel like they're letting their family down? I can't help but shake the feeling that I'm the firstborn son and they've come to rely on me for that. Like... I'm supposed to push on the family name, I'm my grandfather's first grandson... yeah, that sort of thinking is certainly patriarchal but at the same time it's definitely there and I feel like I *could* just grit my teeth and bear it and be the son/grandson they want.


I don't see anything a "first-born son" could do that a "first-born daughter" couldn't.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby superglucose » Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:37 pm UTC

Yeah. That's true.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby NovaNatalia » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:23 pm UTC

superglucose wrote:Do any other MtF transfolk feel like they're letting their family down? I can't help but shake the feeling that I'm the firstborn son and they've come to rely on me for that. Like... I'm supposed to push on the family name, I'm my grandfather's first grandson... yeah, that sort of thinking is certainly patriarchal but at the same time it's definitely there and I feel like I *could* just grit my teeth and bear it and be the son/grandson they want.


Yes. I feel like a constant, massive disappointment, and I've not even started oestrogen yet or present as female. It feels even worse looking back at my family tree to 1280 (peasants all the way, as if it's important — huzzah for lingering classism, I guess), and knowing that I'll be the first reproductive failure in all that line (by definition).
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Becani » Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:09 am UTC

so uhm. I shaved my head.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby poxic » Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:24 am UTC

If I were into making out with people, you look like someone I would really want to make out with.

... Er, I hope you take that as a compliment.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby superglucose » Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:25 am UTC

Becani wrote:so uhm. I shaved my head.

http://i.imgur.com/FaaPQLf.jpg

Ooooh it looks good!

I shaved my, well, whole body. That was a wonderful, tear-filled, and exhilitaringly freeing experience.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Becani » Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:26 am UTC

Thanks! ^_^

It was kindof a big risk. I wanted to see what I'd look like. could have been a lot worse, but it turned out okay! <3

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Monika » Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:16 am UTC

superglucose wrote:Do any other MtF transfolk feel like they're letting their family down? I can't help but shake the feeling that I'm the firstborn son and they've come to rely on me for that. Like... I'm supposed to push on the family name, I'm my grandfather's first grandson... yeah, that sort of thinking is certainly patriarchal but at the same time it's definitely there and I feel like I *could* just grit my teeth and bear it and be the son/grandson they want.

You can keep the family name and may be able to pass it on to your adoptive child(ren), or child(ren) your spouse bears via artificial insemination if ze has a functioning uterus.
Even if you kept pretending to be male and married a cis woman it would not be certain you would be able to pass on the family name - maybe the wife or you would not be fertile? Do you both want to have children? And even if you procreate, maybe you have only daughters and they all decide to take their husband's (or female or genderqueer partner's) name or stay unmarried, and then the family name would be "lost" anyway one generation down.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Brace » Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:25 am UTC

Plus, no family line will survive the heat death of the universe, so they're all finite anyway.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby XJ_0 » Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:49 am UTC

superglucose wrote:Do any other MtF transfolk feel like they're letting their family down? I can't help but shake the feeling that I'm the firstborn son and they've come to rely on me for that. Like... I'm supposed to push on the family name, I'm my grandfather's first grandson... yeah, that sort of thinking is certainly patriarchal but at the same time it's definitely there and I feel like I *could* just grit my teeth and bear it and be the son/grandson they want.

Sorry, FtM here, but I feel some connection to what you're saying, but perhaps in a different way. I was the first-born daughter, and I was expected to marry a man and give my family grandchildren. I didn't exactly have a name to push on, but more of a bloodline and culture. My family was also more matriarchal with a "family is always first" mentality. For most of my life, my maternal great-grandmother (mother's mother's mother) was alive, and I reached breeding age before she died. I could have made five generations exist at once. I was a let down in that sense that I didn't fulfill their expectations and desires. I also did not feel this connection of family that they wanted me to have. And I knew very strongly that I didn't want to get pregnant. Not then, not now, not ever.

I eventually had to separate myself from them.

I don't recommend going through all the pain of dysphoria for the sake of anyone else, even your family. The pain and unhappiness just sucks way too much. p_q

Years later they decided to contact me. They seem to at least somewhat evaluated what family means to them, and realized that they don't want to lose a member just because they're trans (They'll also have to deal with never having grandchildren from me, and not having what they envisioned). Things between us aren't perfect now, but at least they are much better.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby superglucose » Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:21 pm UTC

"Also, and I don't think I have communicated this as often as I should, but I am glad you are my son."

I love my dad so much and now I have to tell him why that sentence made me break down in tears. He's amazing and wonderful and great and there's just this little bit of me he doesn't know and probably wouldn't understand and I could lose him over it and that would just kill me inside.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby XJ_0 » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:52 pm UTC

Does it kill you more to remain his "son" or to potentially lose him? Does it make a difference if he was lost forever, or for temporarily?

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby superglucose » Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:19 pm UTC

*breathes*

Coming out to my mom tonight. I'm scared.
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