[SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Zohar » Mon May 08, 2017 8:14 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:Isn't the whole point of being tolerant and accepting of different orientations that people want to date or fuck whoever they want to date or fuck and we shouldn't be telling anyone that they should do or want anyone other than they want to do or want?

The details are important here. It's fine to say "I don't want to date people who don't share my values". You can criticize that, but it's not an offensive thing, in-and-of itself. It's another thing to say "I won't date black people" because that's pretty racist and ignores the huge variety of how people look and act. You could say "I'm not attracted to black people", which isn't as terrible, but still pretty bad.

You can't control who you're attracted to (at least usually), but translating that to sweeping generalizations or justifying it with sweeping generalizations is bad.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby flicky1991 » Mon May 08, 2017 8:36 pm UTC

Genitals seem a lot more acceptable to be something that affects whether you would sleep with someone than race. I am bi, but I wouldn't give anyone shit for only liking penises or vaginas any more than them being straight or gay.

That said, that person eSOANEM was talking about specifically clearly had a lot of actually transphobic beliefs on top of that, so I wouldn't want to defend him...
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby eSOANEM » Mon May 08, 2017 9:00 pm UTC

Like, labelling only wanting to fuck people with dicks as gay is cisnormative but the attraction is not inherently transphobic.

The point that was repeatedly made on the original post was that treating preferences as red lines is generally not good so should be meditated upon. And, when those preferences line up with existing axes of oppression, that should also be meditated upon and, if they come up in an existing relationship, should be discussed with the partner.

Anyway, this is a safespace thread in which I'm posting about transphobia in queer spaces so I really don't appreciate people coming in to drag me through the same emotional labour of explaining this again
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby flicky1991 » Mon May 08, 2017 9:01 pm UTC

Sorry, I did not mean to be argumentative.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby ObsessoMom » Tue May 09, 2017 1:45 am UTC

I understand that nuanced explanations by the one seeking support are exactly what safe spaces are designed to avoid, but If it's any comfort, I found the explanation helpful, eSOANEM, and I'm sure others did as well. Appreciated.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Ginger » Tue May 09, 2017 10:22 am UTC

I don't have a problem dating trans* women or men. Even when they still have the parts that they don't want anymore. I value the existence of a gender binary only somewhat, as I try to conform to some norms for my gender presentation. Don't think I erase gay people though. It seems like a social justice attempt gone wrong.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Monika » Wed May 10, 2017 12:13 pm UTC

eSOANEM wrote:cn: transphobia within queer spaces and associated shit like bio essentialism etc; mentions of fgm

Spoiler:
A bunch of pages for my university appeared recently. First there was memebridge for memes, then crushbridge for people to do missed connections type stuff, then grudgebridge for people to anonymously rant about people, and then queerbridge which is crushbridge but queer.

Anyway, there was a post earlier along the lines of "I'm a lesbian and I was a bit taken aback when I found out my trans gf has a penis; how should I handle this". The first few responses were mostly good saying that yup, it can be difficult and that's understandable, but you should probably think a bit about why it bothers you and, more importantly, talk it through with your gf (in particular, if you're squicked out by penetration, that may not be relevant because a lot of trans women don't like that because it can be dysphoria inducing).

Then a shitlord showed up saying that everything was fine and dandy and under no circumstances is it wrong to refuse to date or fuck people of any group. He then submitted another post to the page saying as much and explicitly using race and genitals as examples.

This thread has then exploded into a complete shitshow. The original shitlord has repeatedly claimed that all this is just rampant homophobia and that we (the trans community) are trying to erase gay people out of existence and that my ID as genderqueer is irrelevant because fgm is a thing and was saying one of my friends (who is genderfluid) has never experienced homophobia in response to being told of a time they were beaten up by someone for making out with a dude outside a gay club. He also continually referred to all trans people as gender non-conforming even when it was explained to him why this was shitty.

And a few other cis gay men jumped in to defend him and it's just so tiring not even being safe from this bullshit in queer circles

Oh god, that sounds horrible :( "erase gay people out of existence" WTH, they need a reality check who inside the LGBTIQQA community is being a) erased out of existence b) (Trigger warning for violence/death) murdered out of existence - at least when we're talking about most countries in the Americas and Europe and not Chechnya that's not the LG part and there it's obviously not trans women who are responsible for cis gay and lesbians' misery.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Ginger » Thu May 18, 2017 11:30 am UTC

Went to my doctor a few days ago for blood work and a chat about further steps for making my estrogen work right. He doubled my current dosage so that's going to be something new to try. He as well talked about some kind of item that you spray little bits of estrogen foam or something onto your arm and then rub it into your skin... does anybody know what it is called?
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Quercus » Thu May 18, 2017 11:42 am UTC

Ginger wrote:does anybody know what it is called?


A quick google indicates that it might be estrogel - gel rather than foam, but the same principle.

I'm glad your doctor had some ideas for alternatives for you to try.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Ginger » Thu May 18, 2017 11:48 am UTC

Thank you for your swiftness! I'm happy he had some alternatives as well. Checking out the link it does indeed sound like what he was suggesting. :)
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Quercus » Thu May 25, 2017 11:58 am UTC

So, I finally got round to shaving my legs (and arms and torso - testosterone sucks sometimes) so I feel comfortable wearing a skirt again.... and oh my God, it's such a sense of relief. I didn't realise just how much dysphoria I was feeling from a) all that body hair and b) being stuck in masc clothing.

On the plus side, I had been starting to doubt that I was really genderqueer, and now I'm pretty certain that yes, yes I am.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Ginger » Thu May 25, 2017 1:48 pm UTC

Congratulations on your newfound sense of fashion! I identify with the feelings of pleasantness from less body hair. Whenever I shave my face or body I feel better. Skirts are nice too definitely some of my favorite things to wear. As far as doubts go, I've had my share, however that you took a chance and overcame your doubts is very encouraging. Good job on getting in touch with your feminine side. :D
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Quercus » Thu May 25, 2017 6:42 pm UTC

Ginger wrote:Congratulations on your newfound sense of fashion! I identify with the feelings of pleasantness from less body hair. Whenever I shave my face or body I feel better. Skirts are nice too definitely some of my favorite things to wear. As far as doubts go, I've had my share, however that you took a chance and overcame your doubts is very encouraging. Good job on getting in touch with your feminine side. :D


Thanks! Although it's not exactly newfound, more rediscovered - I've been wearing skirts and dresses for about a year now; but I'd let my hair grow out for lack of time and energy to shave or wax, and I didn't fancy wearing opaque tights in 30 degree weather.

Weirdly body hair often bothers me, but I always love my beard, so I've shaved everything except my face and head.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Ginger » Fri May 26, 2017 11:07 am UTC

When you say that you are gender queer, and that you like your beard, I get the picture that being called a man may not bother you? It would for me. However I've never met any gender queer people. Since you like wearing skirts and dresses too does that mean you have aspects of both genders inside you? I'm just curious.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby eSOANEM » Fri May 26, 2017 11:59 am UTC

I'm also genderqueer but like my beard. For me though it's mostly a matter of ease. It pisses me off that it leads to people reading me as male more often, but the frustration of shaving every day (and dealing with the prickly stubble that entails) is worse for me.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Ginger » Fri May 26, 2017 12:05 pm UTC

Right on. So my read of the situation is that gender queer people are neutral in terms of gender. Neither male nor female. Or do you (general "you") choose a gender you like more that day and go with that? Sounds like the possibly related term gender fluid. I might be in the T spectrum of our little acronym however living in a small conservative town leaves me woefully underrepresented in terms of the other letters.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby PM 2Ring » Fri May 26, 2017 1:02 pm UTC

Ginger wrote:Right on. So my read of the situation is that gender queer people are neutral in terms of gender. Neither male nor female. Or do you (general "you") choose a gender you like more that day and go with that? Sounds like the possibly related term gender fluid. I might be in the T spectrum of our little acronym however living in a small conservative town leaves me woefully underrepresented in terms of the other letters.

It's complicated. ;) Some gender queer people feel like they aren't strongly gendered, so neutral is a good description. But other gender queer people strongly identify with both traditional genders and need to express both their masculine and feminine side, although not necessarily simultaneously. And it's not really something that you can consciously choose: it's more like due to the complex interplay of personal and social factors your gender chooses you.

Gender labels can be useful things, but they also have a negative side. They can be a useful way to indicate regions in the complex gender landscape, but they also get used like labels on boxes, with the implicit assumption that everyone needs to be put into their proper box, permanently. Many gender nonconformists do not like being shoved into boxes (especially the box labelled "Weirdo"), we like to be able to wander over the gender landscape as the mood and situation takes us.

Some people find it very liberating to be able to mix gender expression, eg wearing a beard & a skirt at the same time. And they should be able to do so without fear of reprisal. OTOH, if a person strongly identifies with the opposite binary gender to the one they were forced to grow up as it's totally understandable that they would like to express themselves as fully as possible in their self-identified gender. And they should be able to do that without people insinuating that they're perpetuating outmoded binary gender stereotypes.

Here's a post I wrote a few years ago on this topic. It's not long, so I'll quote it in its entirety.

PM 2Ring wrote:
Zohar wrote:These two books came out in 2009. What an enlightened world we live in.


Stereotypes in themselves aren't evil, it just depends on how seriously people take them. If males & females behaved the same, wore the same clothing & jewellery, etc, cross-dressing wouldn't be as much fun. To paraphrase RuPaul, we are all born naked, everything else is just playing dress-ups. :)

I don't have a problem with a society defining standards of male & female behaviour. What I object to is forcing people to choose one or the other, rather than allowing them to pick & choose the elements they identify with. This is closely related to the issue of labels. Labels are useful signposts to identify different parts of the complex "behaviour landscape". Labels become evil when they are attached to individuals and used to fence off the behaviour landscape into disconnected regions. When that happens, people are punished if they don't stay in the region that society assigns to them, and people who identify as "normal" feel entitled to punish those of us that are in the more exotic parts of the behaviour landscape.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Zohar » Fri May 26, 2017 1:08 pm UTC

Yeaaaah I still disagree with you on that, but still like my original response well enough so I guess you can just click the link and see it there.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Ginger » Fri May 26, 2017 1:47 pm UTC

PM 2Ring wrote:
Ginger wrote:Right on. So my read of the situation is that gender queer people are neutral in terms of gender. Neither male nor female. Or do you (general "you") choose a gender you like more that day and go with that? Sounds like the possibly related term gender fluid. I might be in the T spectrum of our little acronym however living in a small conservative town leaves me woefully underrepresented in terms of the other letters.

It's complicated. ;) Some gender queer people feel like they aren't strongly gendered, so neutral is a good description. But other gender queer people strongly identify with both traditional genders and need to express both their masculine and feminine side, although not necessarily simultaneously. And it's not really something that you can consciously choose: it's more like due to the complex interplay of personal and social factors your gender chooses you.

I like the idea that your gender chooses you (Go, Pikachu, I choose you et cetera!). Never felt much like a choice to me. It was just a part of me, that wanting to be the opposite gender, and so I can strongly identify with that aspect of being gender queer. I'm sure I have socially-described "masculine" traits in some of me however they don't override the feminine traits enough that I feel comfortable being called by what parts I was born with. Definitely agree as well that none of our expressions should be met with reprisal from the "normal people" of society.

Zohar wrote:I don't think it's fair to leave the option only to strong-willed people who are willing to go against the flow and suffer the consequences. Besides, if everyone is allowed to choose whatever parts they like best, why identify them with "boy" or "girl" at all?

Agree with the first part of Zohar's response however the second part is iffier. Definitely for me I didn't have the strongest of wills, was easy to fashion into one thing or the other by persuasive liberal discussions and was desperate to find a place where I fit with my fellow women--though painfully aware that several of them didn't want me, so was open to siding with traditional men as well. I believe we should still keep around some "typically gendered descriptors" because they're more of guidelines than actual rules. If you aren't afraid of social censure at any rate.

"Girl" being a thing doesn't necessarily limit your options for expression as long as you are open to the neutral or both categories. However I still think we should abolish the expectation of exact match-ups with gender stereotypes because they are useless in a world with more people mixing things up.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Zohar » Fri May 26, 2017 1:51 pm UTC

I'm not clear on what benefit you see for having these guidelines, could you explain?
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Ginger » Fri May 26, 2017 1:54 pm UTC

It's purely a personal thing. I'm talking about people like me that rely on the gender binary to distinguish us as people. Like, I choose to act like a stereotypical girl sometimes because that helps me figure out how best to live my life, not necessarily other people. So if you like the gender binary to some degree you might want to emulate these things in times where you're unsure of yourself. It's like a script from a play helping us remember our lines.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Zohar » Fri May 26, 2017 2:03 pm UTC

I understand that, and I think a lot of it is a consequence of the existing stereotypes - "I feel comfortable acting this way because this is the way I'm expected to act". I don't think wanting guidance like this would be a thing in a world without these stereotypes. Of course, we can't just switch to that world by snapping our fingers, and I get where you're coming from.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Quercus » Fri May 26, 2017 2:34 pm UTC

Ginger wrote:When you say that you are gender queer, and that you like your beard, I get the picture that being called a man may not bother you? It would for me.

I guess it bothers me in that it's inaccurate, and it does feel a bit uncomfortable; but it bothers me a lot less than changing part of me I really like would.

However I've never met any gender queer people. Since you like wearing skirts and dresses too does that mean you have aspects of both genders inside you? I'm just curious.

I don't really have anything coherent enough to be called an internal "sense of gender" at all, so I'm not sure how to answer that question. I'm mostly happy with my body, except body hair, but then I do have breasts (yay for gynecomastia!) and I think I'd feel significantly less happy if I didn't have those, I also think I'd vaguely prefer having a vulva over a penis, but that's mostly to do with the fact that I'd like to be able to wear tight fitting clothing without having to worry about whether my penis is showing.

In terms of expression, I shift around a lot, but definitely lean towards the feminine, and start feeling significant discomfort if I have to wear masc clothing for a long period of time.

I identify as genderqueer mostly on the basis that my relationship to gender is non-normative i.e. queer. If I was getting more specific I guess I'd say I was agender (in that I don't have an internal sense of gender as far as I can tell) and transfeminine (in that my preferred expression is usually feminine, but my body is read as masculine most of the time). I used to identify as genderfluid, but then I realised that what I was thinking of as a gender identity was mostly what I was feeling like wearing, not how I felt inside.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby eSOANEM » Fri May 26, 2017 2:47 pm UTC

I do have a sense of gender sometimes but I mostly use genderqueer because it's a nice and broad umbrella. My sense of gender does vary from day to day or week to week so I do often describe myself as genderfluid as well but, most of the time, both "male" and "female" feel actively incorrect descriptors of me, sometimes one feels ok but not the other and sometimes both seem fine.

Basically my gender is hella complicated and "genderqueer" seems like a good way for summing that up without having to go into a big long description of a of my gender feels.
Last edited by eSOANEM on Fri May 26, 2017 3:59 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Quercus » Fri May 26, 2017 2:50 pm UTC

eSOANEM wrote: Basically my gender is hella complicated a d "genderqueer" seems like a good way for summing that up without having to go into a big long description of a of my gender feels.


Yes! So much this

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby poxic » Fri May 26, 2017 4:11 pm UTC

I might fall under genderqueer, but most of the time I just don't gender at all. Even thinking of myself as neuter is sorta too much effort.

And yet growing up girl means I usually correct online people when they boy me by default because "everyone is male unless otherwise specified" annoys me. Eh.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby kalira » Fri May 26, 2017 4:25 pm UTC

Spoilered for unsolicited re: body hair removal:

Spoiler:
Quercus, have you tried depilatory creams? I am super lazy on the body hair removal front most of the time, but I use a spray-on cream (this stuff) and it's easy and quick whenever I want to denude the legs/armpits/etc. Just 5-10 minutes letting it sit and you're pretty much done. I always err on the side of "sensitive formula" stuff if you can find it just to be safe, and you can't use it every day, both of which because chem burns are no fun. (blah blah blah, follow all the directions, etc etc. I left it on a little too long once in a sensitive area... never again. Never had any issues leaving it a couple minutes longer on my legs though.) But like I said, super easy. If you can find it or something close to it, you might want to try it -- I know I am always pleased with the results. Side note, though, it kinda sprays the floor too, and makes it super slippery, so make sure you're in the shower and you don't need to go anywhere before it's finished working its chemical magics. (FWIW I'm female, but I seem to have relatively thick body hair.)

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Pfhorrest » Fri May 26, 2017 4:26 pm UTC

I identify as both genderfluid and genderqueer, as well as pangender and agender, and here's what all those terms mean to me:

- Agender: I don't especially feel like gender is "a thing" to me; like, I see that society genders things and hear that other people strongly care about how they are gendered by society, but it doesn't especially matter to me what conceptual gender-boxes other people map me into or not. I don't care what pronouns people use for me or if they think of me as manly or womanly or anything like that.

- Pangender: It's hard for me to tease apart how this differs from agender, but generally I identify with it because I do like being able to step into any gender-box, when that box suits me, it's only the stuck-ness I'd object to. I don't especially care how I'm gendered, but I don't (always) want to be genderless.

It's like...if genders were tastes in music, for analogy, then I'm agender in that if you asked me what kind of music I would like to be stuck listening to forever, I'd shrug and say whatever doesn't matter though being stuck with only one forever and unable to turn it off kinda sucks; but then I'm pangender in that if given the free choice to listen to whatever I like whenever I like, while a lot of the time I'd just have peace and quiet, I would listen to a wide variety of different music when I do happen to feel like listening to it. As opposed to someone who's, say, all country all the time; yeah I mean country's okay and if I have to listen to some music I wouldn't especially prefer something else, but I don't need there to be music at all, and when there is, you know, variety is nice.

- Genderfluid: It's also hard for me to tease this apart from pangender, but to use that music analogy again, at different times I feel like listening to different genres. I guess this is a narrower concept than pangender, because it doesn't strictly imply that I like all the music, just that I like at least a few different kinds, some more than others at different times. Which is true, even though I do like all the genres: at different times I feel like listening to one more than another, though it's a weak preference and not like I have to have my rap right now and don't you dare play country at me.

- Genderqueer: To continue with this music analogy, I like fusion genres. I like having breasts and I like having a penis, at the same time, and ideally if it weren't too much trouble I would like to have a vagina instead of testicles below my penis, and a more hairless, softer, generally feminine shape, but I still like being tall and strong which is generally considered masculine. I wear a mix of masculine and feminine clothes, and a mix of other masculine and feminine presentations (long hair but no makeup or jewelry), though modulo the genderfluidity the ratio of masc/fem changes with time and context. I have a mix of what are traditionally considered masculine and feminine personality traits and live a lifestyle that's a mix of what were traditionally considered masculine and feminine roles, though those both (personality and social role) seem like things where the gender lines have already melted so much so long ago, in my own perception and also in societal expectations, that I actually have to stop and think about where the gender lines even are/were on those matters, and unlike presentation or how I feel about my body, I don't normally even think about those things in the context of gender unless someone else brings them up.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Quercus » Fri May 26, 2017 4:59 pm UTC

kalira wrote:Spoilered for unsolicited re: body hair removal:


I did try cream once or twice... And it didn't touch my hair at all, something like 80% of the hair was still very firmly attached.

Eventually I want to switch to sugaring, using homemade sugar wax - I've tried this on smallish areas and it works great, i just need to get faster at it for it to be practical as a primary method. I'm using sugar wax partly because it's way cheaper, but mainly because i had my back waxed once with normal wax and despite following the aftercare to the letter my back was covered in hives until after the hair grew back, which rather defeats the point.


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