xkcd

by **Metaphysician** » Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:05 pm UTC

Hey thanks for the responses everybody. I think I'm going to go ahead and create a thread over in SB at some point today, after a little brainstorming about exactly what I want it to be. Also thanks to those that responded via PM, I will be responding to you soon.

by **Monika** » Sat Nov 12, 2011 3:38 pm UTC

Stroke turned man gay
Not sure what to make of this story. Train as hairdresser? Seriously?

by **Shivahn** » Sat Nov 12, 2011 4:57 pm UTC

Monika wrote:Stroke turned man gay
Not sure what to make of this story. Train as hairdresser? Seriously?

No matter how they try to spin it, it's, uh, a guy that had a stroke. I don't think there's anything to make of this story, really, other than that sometimes brain damage does weird stuff.

by **Brace** » Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:02 pm UTC

This is why I don't yell at people who tell me they used to be gay or they used to be trans but got over it (unless they try to give themselves or JESUS credit for it, that is). The brain is a complex thing. I tend to believe every account I hear about a persons psychology, but to disbelieve all of the explanations given for it categorically.

by **Shivahn** » Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:53 pm UTC

There has, fortunately, at least in the right circles, been an increasing acceptance, as far as I can tell, of the fluidity of sexuality, and occasionally of the fluidity of gender as well.

Good god, do I end up with too many clauses sometimes.

But yeah, psychology is extremely complicated, neurology more so, and as much as people like to try to simplify things, categorical explanations often fail to explain edgy fuzzy cases, and sometimes even most cases.

by **Nordic Einar** » Sat Nov 12, 2011 8:28 pm UTC

Shivahn wrote:But yeah, psychology is extremely complicated, neurology more so, and as much as people like to try to simplify things, categorical explanations often fail to explain edgy fuzzy cases, and sometimes even most cases.

And no competent psychologist or neurologist would ever tell you otherwise. Sometimes I fear the queer community has an understandable but excessive distrust of mental health professionals and researchers.

by **Brace** » Sat Nov 12, 2011 11:12 pm UTC

Belonging to a demographic that used to be lobotomized a mere generation ago can do that to you, as can having the institutions that are supposed to protect and serve you used against you in an unspoken social engineering program within your own lifetime. Psychology has progressed, sort of, but it still really isn't a science. No more so than economics or sociology. It's humorously at its most scientific when it is at its least pure, and most of the legitimate progress of the field can be traced to interdisciplinary efforts rather than anything which has a purely psychological tone. Define "excessive" please.

by **t1mm01994** » Sat Nov 12, 2011 11:15 pm UTC

That's mainly due to the news though... Everytime some authority says something ~~controversial~~ stupid(e.g. LGBTA can be cured), it will become insta-news. If an authority says something sensible (e.g. LGBTA is a natural phenomenon), the media never seem to care.

On an unrelated note: Hi! I've been lurking for a while, figured I'd post

EDIT: ninja'd, darned slow typing on touchpad.. Hi regardless.

by **lysithea** » Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:48 am UTC

Finally got myself to catch up to the end of the thread.

Sooo. IRC already knows, but ladypills as of two fridays ago.

by **Brace** » Sun Nov 13, 2011 2:17 pm UTC

^ Congrats

I just found out that the two classes I need to take this semester aren't offered this semester... by any institution in Colorado, basically. Which essentially means I'm SOL on my degrees as well as life, as far as I can figure. I suppose there are some limited alternate possibilities and I'm going to look into them but this is pretty bad.

Edit: The plan at the moment is to try and talk the financial aid committee into letting me add EMT-B training to the number of credits they have permitted me. Then my schedule will be

Code: Select all: Spring - CIS 202 - 3 credits MAN 200:243 - 3 credits CIS 287 (internship) - 1 credits EMS 125 - 9 credits Total = 16 credits Summer - MAT 121 - 5 credits ENG 131 - 3 credits Total = 8 credits Fall - CNG 224 - 3 credits CNG 255 - 3 credits EMS 170 (internship) - 1 credit Calc 1 - 5 credits Total = 12 credits

If they let me do that, I won't be taking any classes that don't apply to my long term plan, so everything will stay exactly on schedule. I think I can manage that if I can get my name changed in time to apply for graduation for the 4 certificates I will have earned at the end of this semester. It should prove to them that I'm actually making academic progress, hopefully, and then they'll be more willing to let me take other stuff.

by **doogly** » Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:33 pm UTC

Kilroy(ZTC) wrote:Define "excessive" please.

Psychology has progressed, sort of, but it still really isn't a science.

by **Brace** » Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:49 pm UTC

I don't understand. It's a true statement as far as I'm aware.

I'm just asking for the context of "excessive". It's not like my distrust or even outright contempt for the field are going to limit its ability to advance the cause of knowledge or anything. That's not just because I lack power as a minority either, it's because there's not a plausible way that I know of in which my own beliefs and actions could have that effect even if I were a billionaire. "Excessive" in that context means... what? Moreso than the norm? Unjustified by current best knowledge of the subject? If its the second I would think you wouldn't go for the word "excessive" though, and would instead just say "unjustified" or maybe even "dogmatic" or "reactionary". Just... help me understand how "excessive" is even a substantive criticism here.

by **lanicita** » Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:07 pm UTC

But not here. Take it to PMs, please.

by **Brace** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:35 pm UTC

I'm looking at getting back into dancing games and the martial arts. A cobalt flux dance pad apparently goes for $300 these days though... that's really a hit on me and my motorcycle fund. With martial arts I'm also worried about transphobia related stuff (as well as finding the money and time; stupid independent lifestyle, stop making me choose between things!)

by **natraj** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:41 pm UTC

Kilroy(ZTC) wrote:With martial arts I'm also worried about transphobia related stuff

This can certainly be worrying but if you look around there are really awesome places where it should not be a problem; it is just one more thing to keep in mind while looking for a place where you fit in. I am trans and out at my dojo though I was not when I joined! But my Sensei just basically said that if anyone gave me any problems at all he would deal with them (and he hasn't had to, if anyone has had any problems with me they have not made it an issue with me) so if you find a place with a supportive teacher/supportive people it can be great.

by **Aaeriele** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:30 pm UTC

This is a really powerful and moving article, but also very potentially triggery:

(Trigger warnings for rape, suicide, violence, discrimination.)

Spoiler:

by **Jessica** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:57 pm UTC

That was quite powerful. I feel like crying after reading that.

by **natraj** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:10 pm UTC

Me too. I waited till all my coworkers left the office to read it because when I started I knew it was going to make me teary.

by **natashatasha** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:05 am UTC

That was the first article I had ever seen when I started looking up trans issues. It made me very disinclined to continue after I had found it, and I stopped looking up trans stuff for a year ... that poor woman.

by **lanicita** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:20 am UTC

Today in class, we were split into two sides and told to debate the pros and cons of same-sex schooling. I ended up on the pro side. I basically didn't say anything the whole time, until the end when they asked us what we really thought, and I gave somewhat of a speech about how it excludes people who don't fall within the gender binary. My professor was great and held it up as central to the debate. Victory.

by **Brace** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:00 am UTC

I went ahead and bought a new cobalt flux. It's setting me back a fair ways in my motorcycle money (by which I mean I will actually have to make monthly payments on the thing, le gasp), but I figure that it's important to take care of my body and to stay active in my hobbies. Life is really bleak when it's just work all the time. Although I wonder how my downstairs neighbors are going to feel about this. I'm betting if I only play between 10am and 5pm though I won't get yelled at over it.

by **natraj** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:18 pm UTC

Some sort of good news from my state, they passed the Trans Equal Rights bill today. They took protection in public accommodations out of it so... not ideal. But. It is a start!

by **H.E.L.e.N.** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:22 pm UTC

I just came here to post that! (I was pretty WTF at some of the opposition, being all 'this is a distraction from jobs issues', because...protection from workplace discrimination [thus, the ability of some people to keep their jobs] isn't a jobs issue? I mean, I know what their argument is, but it's a seriously fucked up argument.)

by **Jessica** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:49 pm UTC

The public accommodations part is a pretty big part. It makes me sad that the only way to get this to go through was to give right wing liars a victory.

But yes, it's a start.

by **Monika** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:21 pm UTC

What does it mean that public accommodations have been left out? I googled and found so far public accommodations are things like restaurants and movie theaters. So does this mean e.g. a restaurant is now - finally - not allowed to fire a transitioning employee because of the new workplace protection, but they could still refuse to serve a transgender customer?

by **Jessica** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:45 pm UTC

Monika wrote:What does it mean that public accommodations have been left out? I googled and found so far public accommodations are things like restaurants and movie theaters. So does this mean e.g. a restaurant is now - finally - not allowed to fire a transitioning employee because of the new workplace protection, but they could still refuse to serve a transgender customer?

Protection to use the proper washroom is the main one. Also change rooms and other gendered space. Anything in public that is gendered. Also yes, they could refuse to serve a trans customer.

Here's transgriot's response to the bill. FT under the spoiler.

Spoiler:

The unjust Massachusetts Trans Rights Bill without public accommodations language passed the Massachusetts Legislature Wednesday. If the bill is signed by Gov. Deval Patrick it will take effect on July 1, 2012.

It's being hailed as a victory for 'equality' and 'fairness' by Gay, Inc.orgs and their apologists.

Normally when a trans rights bill on a statewide or any level passes I'm ecstatic about it.

But not in this case.

So why am I not a happy camper about this? My less than enthusiastic attitude surrounding this bill stems largely from the public accommodations language that was cut out of it. The other 15 statewide trans rights bills have that vital public accommodations language in it.

but you can bet when GL activists in Massachusetts passed a bill 22 years ago for themselves they damned sure didn't cut the PA lanuage out of it.that covers Rep. Barney Frank, Rachel Maddow and every other GLB person in the commonwealth. .

Ahem, from the Massachusetts State Legislature website, Section 92A:

No owner, lessee, proprietor, manager, superintendent, agent or employee of any place of public accommodation, resort or amusement shall, directly or indirectly, by himself or another, publish, issue, circulate, distribute or display, or cause to be published, issued, circulated, distributed or displayed, in any way, any advertisement, circular, folder, book, pamphlet, written or painted or printed notice or sign, of any kind or description, intended to discriminate against or actually discriminating against persons of any religious sect, creed, class, race, color, denomination, sex, sexual orientation, which shall not include persons whose sexual orientation involves minor children as the sex object, nationality, or because of deafness or blindness, or any physical or mental disability, in the full enjoyment of the accommodations, advantages, facilities or privileges offered to the general public by such places of public accommodation, resort or amusement.

A place of public accommodation, resort or amusement within the meaning hereof shall be defined as and shall be deemed to include any place, whether licensed or unlicensed, which is open to and accepts or solicits the patronage of the general public and, without limiting the generality of this definition, whether or not it be (1) an inn, tavern, hotel, shelter, roadhouse, motel, trailer camp or resort for transient or permanent guests or patrons seeking housing or lodging, food, drink, entertainment, health, recreation or rest; (2) a carrier, conveyance or elevator for the transportation of persons, whether operated on land, water or in the air, and the stations, terminals and facilities appurtenant thereto; (3) a gas station, garage, retail store or establishment, including those dispensing personal services; (4) a restaurant, bar or eating place, where food, beverages, confections or their derivatives are sold for consumption on or off the premises; (5) a rest room, barber shop, beauty parlor, bathhouse, seashore facilities or swimming pool, except such rest room, bathhouse or seashore facility as may be segregated on the basis of sex; (6) a boardwalk or other public highway; (7) an auditorium, theatre, music hall, meeting place or hall, including the common halls of buildings; (8) a place of public amusement, recreation, sport, exercise or entertainment; (9) a public library, museum or planetarium; or (10) a hospital, dispensary or clinic operating for profit; provided, however, that with regard to the prohibition on sex discrimination, this section shall not apply to a place of exercise for the exclusive use of persons of the same sex which is a bona fide fitness facility established for the sole purpose of promoting and maintaining physical and mental health through physical exercise and instruction, if such facility does not receive funds from a government source, nor to any corporation or entity authorized, created or chartered by federal law for the express purpose of promoting the health, social, educational vocational, and character development of a single sex; provided, further, that with regard to the prohibition of sex discrimination, those establishments which rent rooms on a temporary or permanent basis for the exclusive use of persons of the same sex shall not be considered places of public accommodation and shall not apply to any other part of such an establishment.

Any person who shall violate any provision of this section, or who shall aid in or incite, cause or bring about, in whole or in part, such a violation shall be punished by a fine of not more than one hundred dollars, or by imprisonment for not more than thirty days, or both.

MTPC claims they will push for the missing in civil rights action PA language in 2013, but you had Democratic supermajorities in the Massachusetts House and Senate and a Democratic governor willing to sign a bill in 2011. You should have done so this year with an election looming in 2012 . But you caved.

So congratulations* Massachusetts on your no prize winning hollow trans rights victory.

The truth hurts doesn't it? This is a bad bill without the public accommodations language in it. Even the sponsor of it is bothered about it like I am.

From the Rainbow Times:

The measure, however, does not include protections for public accommodations, such as hotels and restaurants, restrooms, locker rooms, public buildings and transit, including subway and bus lines. That omission bothers a lead sponsor of the bill, Representative Carl M. Sciortino, Jr. (D-Medford). But he said, the bill is a step forward “It makes sure that people who have faced violence and discrimination have legal remedy.”

Yeah, right. This is moldy civil rights bread that was just given to the Massachusetts trans community.

Now the Gay, Inc peeps and their trans apologists are attempting to spin the lie that this moldy bread tastes better than the hot fresh garlic-buttered civil rights loaf we watched GL activists bake and stuff in their mouths along with the crumbs from it

This trans rights bill damned sure isn't the equivalent of the one the Massachusetts GL community passed for themselves 22 years ago and they better not even part their lips to try and say it is. But some people in the Massachusetts trans community are chomping on that moldy civil rights bread you just handed them and proclaiming it's the best they've ever ate as the rest of us in other parts of the country shake our heads.

The question is, without the PA language, what legal remedies will a discriminated against Massachusetts trans person have under the unjust state law if that anti-trans discrimination occurs in a hotel, restaurant, public building, transit, restroom or locker room setting?

I have the sinking feeling that the trans people who will discover the answer to that question and bear the brunt of that anti-trans PA based discrimination will disproportionately be non-white ones.

by **Brace** » Sun Nov 20, 2011 1:51 am UTC

The motorcycle thing is pretty much not happening. I only have 7 classes left to take, and there are only 3 I can take this semester. One of my scholarships, the $1,750 one, requires me to go to school full time. I am not allowed to take any other classes. Going less than full time will also reduce my student aid and loans quite a bit, possibly to the point where I can't afford things like rent and hormones. In theory with half time I can work more, but I was already going to work. I guess if I can manage 40 paid hours a week between my internship and my present job I can be on the same footing, but that would be contingent upon me actually getting a paid internship, and early in the semester.

by **Brace** » Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:17 am UTC

I guess I should also apologize to all of you for being a very boring person. All I ever post about is money woes and psychological woes and school woes. I must sound like a broken record. I'm a shut-in workaholic, or so my friends tell me, so I guess it makes sense I only talk about things like that... I mean heck, even when I talk about other things, like my motorcycle or martial arts, it's only in the context of wishing I could do them and never in the context of doing them. So sorry for being boring and whiny I guess.

by **felltir** » Sun Nov 20, 2011 10:43 am UTC

Although I don't normally reply, due to having nothing constructive to add, I always read your posts in full, and I've never found them boring or whiny. They read like someone updating people on how their life is going, and that's hunky dory.

Tl;dr: You're p cool.

by **Brace** » Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:35 pm UTC

by **The EGE** » Sun Nov 20, 2011 6:25 pm UTC

Yeah, basically what felltir said. kilroy, I never find you annoying.

by **FreyasSpirit** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:38 am UTC

I'm not very talkative, but I always read everything that's posted and I've never thought of you as boring on whiny

by **Brace** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:35 pm UTC

To paraphrase anon, "Disregard the above, [redacted]"

I found a way to get exactly full time status using classes I'm allowed to take. It was only possible because they changed one of the courses to be worth 3 credits instead of 1, so this is kind of a ridiculous fluke of chance, and furthermore it screws up my plans for summer semester, but still; I will take it.

by **PM 2Ring** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:15 am UTC

Kilroy(ZTC) wrote:To paraphrase anon, "Disregard the above, [redacted]"

I found a way to get exactly full time status using classes I'm allowed to take. It was only possible because they changed one of the courses to be worth 3 credits instead of 1, so this is kind of a ridiculous fluke of chance, and furthermore it screws up my plans for summer semester, but still; I will take it.

Yay!

by **Jessica** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:12 pm UTC

I'm really bothered by the fact that trans men are reading the names of people who were killed during Trans day of remembrance. Be part of the group that runs it, help out, but don't read the names. Having a trans man say "I am <insert name here>" is really disingenuous. There are no trans men on the list this year, nor were there any last year. Overwhelmingly it's trans women of colour, who are sex workers who are killed. They are mostly from asia and south america.

This is one of the issues I have with this day. I understand it's important to some, but the people who are dying aren't the same as the people who are memorializing, in terms of gender, race, or class.

by **The Mighty Thesaurus** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:15 pm UTC

Because what the world really needs is another wedge

When people are being killed because they are different, the solution isn't to exclude people for being different.

by **Jessica** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:30 pm UTC

But the reason they are being killed isn't bring brought to light. It's being covered over with "they are trans" and that's it. It isn't just because they are trans that they are dying. It's mainly because of multiple intersections of class, gender, race and the criminalization of sex work. In the same way that I shouldn't say "I'm oppressed because immigrants are oppressed, and I'm practically an immigrant." It isn't a wedge to divide people, it's an issue that should be looked at, and not washed over.

Just because there are problems doesn't mean that we should pretend that we're all the same so we can feel united. That path leads to the same problems that happen when we try and be a unified queer movement; when problems are solved for the dominant group, people stop fighting for it. I'm not saying that we shouldn't have a trans day of remembrance, I'm saying we should look at what is actually happening, and honestly look at how memorializing people can be a way of taking their identity away from them.

by **The Mighty Thesaurus** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:39 pm UTC

You are neither a POC nor a sex worker. Should we exclude you from the day, too? Should we allow transmen who are South American sex workers to read names?

by **Jessica** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 7:46 pm UTC

I didn't say exclude. But, if someone asked me to read the list of names of those who died, I would ecline. I certainly would not feel comfortable saying "I am <insert name> and I was killed..." If I were running an event, I would make a comment about how we need to think about the fact that these women (not trans people) are being killed for more than just being trans, and that there needs to be more thought toward other aspects of oppression than just being trans.

I wouldn't want a straight cis white guy reading the names on the TDoR. I wouldn't want a cis lesbian woman reading them either.

It's a similar thing to trans men trying to reclaim the word "tranny", even though that word isn't generally applied to trans men, and doesn't in general reference trans men.

by **Lostdreams** » Wed Nov 23, 2011 8:41 pm UTC

It depends on the intent. Are you representing the group or individual? If it is the group, which one? Queer people, trans people, trans women, trans women sex workers, trans women sex workers of color?

If the memorial was to use the deaths of those people to further the cause to include trans people and eliminate hate crime then you would want as many different people to speak as possible. If it was to memorialize the individual person based on what they would want then they would be represented by any number of friends, family, or other people; in some cases perhaps they would wish not to be called at all. Given that the event's purpose for the memorial was the former, I would be upset that they didn't include more types of people as callers.

Being the event had a gender focus and not a race, job, health, economic status, etc. focus they would want to keep the focus on that and not spread too thin. There may be 50 reasons that lead to the demise of most of the people called but there is one that they all have in common, and it's the same thing that caused all of those people to show up and hear the names be called that day.

There are other causes that will rally to those other reasons on another day for as long as it takes for them to be addressed but that day was for the trans people.

Who is online