[SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby PerchloricAcid » Sat Nov 03, 2012 11:00 am UTC

Btw, here's a really cool tumblr: fighthomophobia.tumblr.com

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Monika » Sat Nov 03, 2012 12:20 pm UTC

PerchloricAcid wrote:Thanks people, that was really a nice surprise. :D I wasn't expecting so many hugs. :D

I filed a criminal complaint against Vladan Glišić, a leading homophobe in Serbia. The program of his political party, Dveri, basically evolves around the prohibition of the Pride.
Many of his statements in the media are highly homophobic, malicious and dangerous.
No criminal complaints against him were ever filed before.

I doubt something big will happen, but I hope he will at least be processed and financially fined.

Wow, that's great! I hope you're successful!



Relating to my earlier post about how to translate "identify as" - I finally came across a German trans blog that defines transgender (or actually in this case cisgender) in such terms and now I know how to say it properly :) The footnote to this critique of the movie "Tomboy" http://trans.blogsport.de/2012/05/11/kr ... lm-tomboy/ says "Cis­gen­der sind Men­schen, die sich mit dem ihnen bei der Ge­burt zu­ge­wie­se­nen Ge­schlecht iden­ti­fi­zie­ren kön­nen." = "Cisgender [which can be a noun or an adjective in German and in this sentence] are people [humans] who can identify with the sex|gender [no difference in German] that was assigned to them at birth".
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Azrael001 » Sun Nov 04, 2012 2:14 am UTC

Spoiler for whiny rant.
Spoiler:
So I got into another argument with my brother, in which he brought up his tired old 'how do you know?' thing. He seems to think that if I just get more exercise, or change my diet or something, that I'll magically stop being trans. Or rather, he thinks that it will help with the depression which is associated with my gender dysphoria, and make transition not necessary. And he doesn't believe that the persistent desire to present as a gender different from my assigned one really counts as a symptom. Worst still, he starts into a guilt trip about how I don't call him enough, that I don't hang out with him enough. Guilt and anger make it difficult to explain things rationally at the best of times, and guilt especially shuts down my ability to respond.

He, and my parents are certain that a trans person cannot possibly have a happy life, and the years that HRT takes from the length of your life make the whole idea of transition a massive mistake. I don't know how to get through to them just how much better it is on the hormones. Worse still I'm incredibly stressed out from the fact that I'm apt to lose a significant portion of my extended family once they find out about my being trans, which will be within a year based on my current frequency of visiting them, and my recently increased dose of E. Their argument will be something like "Oh, you're on hormones and you are stressed out, clear proof that you should be off hormones" I would bet a zillion dollars.

Bleeh.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Monika » Sun Nov 04, 2012 2:25 am UTC

*hugs Azrael001*

Maybe some brochures would help them understand? In English (PDF): http://community.pflag.org/Document.Doc?id=202
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Azrael001 » Sun Nov 04, 2012 2:36 am UTC

That was one of the first things that I gave them. I don't know that they read it. Or if they did, they don't trust it or anything from WPATH. The think that I'm some special snowflake who happens to have all of the symptoms of being trans, while actually having something else. Their current theory is that my emotionally abusive biological mother talking about how horrible men are is to blame.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby PM 2Ring » Sun Nov 04, 2012 5:29 am UTC

Azrael001 wrote: he brought up his tired old 'how do you know?' thing.

And how does he know that he's not a Martian (for example)? :)

Pity you can't adopt Aaeriele's family; they seem pretty cool.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby PerchloricAcid » Sun Nov 04, 2012 1:28 pm UTC

I'm sorry to hear your family is so unhelpful. :(
Maybe they'll never learn. It might be easier for you to consider that possibility.
For example, my catholic family had a really hard time accepting my atheism, and gave me a hard time because of that. It sucked majorly. Eventually I accepted that they will never accept my beliefs and I started thinking in those terms. It became much easier for me.
Several years later, they at least stopped nagging me about it. :)

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby XJ_0 » Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:48 pm UTC

Alice3173 wrote:Just because you don't hear people announcing it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. As Azrael said, not many people would choose to be trans if given the option. I hate being trans, it makes everything harder. It's just not something I really bother saying because it's a rather moot point.

I don't find this a moot point. It doesn't seem to be in that "list" of requirements to be trans, and most cis people don't seem to realize how many of us really really don't want to be trans. (Considering cis people are the majority, that's the majority of people not knowing, not accepting, or thinking otherwise on this "moot" point.) v_v

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby poxic » Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:38 am UTC

It makes me think of how things have been for gay people*. I've spoken with a number of folks who wanted more than anything to be able to just be straight, like everyone else, so their lives would stop sucking so much. It took a lot of personal work for them to come to terms with it.

My age (and culture) is showing here. There is enough acceptance in parts of the world now that the people who grew up with that acceptance also accept, and like, who they are. They wouldn't change their orientation even if it were possible.

Might it be similar for trans people? When not surrounded by a hostile culture, would trans-ness be less distressing?

* And the way things still are in many, many places.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby XJ_0 » Mon Nov 05, 2012 5:24 am UTC

poxic wrote:Might it be similar for trans people? When not surrounded by a hostile culture, would trans-ness be less distressing?

For me, maybe.

The good news would be that I don't have to live stealth (for my mental health, really). I could call people out on bad behaviour without the fear of outing myself and those repercussions. And I would probably be a more interesting person if I felt like I could be myself in the general public (no fears about the, again, being outted for not being masculine enough. No fears about being raped because I'm outted).

But the bad news would be that I'd still be going through all this body dysphoria. I'd have these breasts that jut out and are icky, and feel bad/hurt to be touched. I'd have this vagina and all of its issues (the painful menstruation, the possibility of becoming pregnant, the incredible pain of pap smears, the way other people treat my/vaginas (Oh, you need put things in it! T_T), etc.). And the ickiness and depression of having to go through so many years (feels likes lots of my life being wasted) to change these things that just should have been different. ;_;

But, since hardly a lot of people are me, or even like me, I imagine that the less hostility would provide a great improvement for the majority of trans* people.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Azrael001 » Mon Nov 05, 2012 7:23 am UTC

I've got good news everyone! We're another step closer to being able to do head transplants without the associated permanent palatalization. Soon trans guys and girls will be able to switch bodies, and everyone will be much happier because of it.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby a_fuzzyduck » Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:33 pm UTC

Not just trans people, but anyone with severe issues or dysphoria about their body :)

in other news: The Pink List - a an annual list of the most influential LGBTQ people in the UK, has been published (warning, contains Tatchell.) And number one isn't monosexual. Which is rather lovely :)
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Brace » Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:43 pm UTC

I think I'm ok with Tatchell

That head thing is kind of creepy, but in practical terms my head is just as much of a barrier to passing as the rest of my body so I'm not sure how helpful that would even be.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Azrael001 » Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:56 pm UTC

I say head because such a transplant has actually been done successfully before. A brain transplant would be better for just the reason you said, though I imagine that it would be more difficult.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Pfhorrest » Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:01 am UTC

Hi everybody,

I just wandered into General for the first time thanks to an ICT thread being transplanted to here, and noticed this thread and thought I would introduce myself. Mostly I kind of want to just sort of... say what I am and hear what people think of that, as I'm kind of asocial and so have never really participated in LGBT social organizations, and also because I've seen a lot of the partisan discrimination within the LGBT community (gays against bisexuals, everybody against trans people, etc) and as I'm pretty outside the mainstream even within the queer world I'm kind of hesitant of outing myself as the "wrong" kind of queer and offending someone. But this is the internet, so my asociality is less severe, and this is a safe thread so I guess it's... safe. Anyway, here goes:

I'm biologically male and have been since birth (XY as far as I know), and mostly because I don't believe socially constructed properties are real properties for philosophical reasons*, I would be fine identifying myself as "a man", though meaning nothing more by that than to signify my biological sex. But in a slightly nonstandard sense of "gender" as a "what sex would I be most comfortable having" psychological property, I would call myself "pangendered".

I am not particularly attached to the fact that I am male, and would not have any shocking identity issues if I somehow woke up female tomorrow; but I don't particularly dislike being male either, though if not for the large costs (of many varieties) and general irreversibility (I don't like irreversible decisions of any kind), I would leap at the chance to try out being female. My absolute ideal body would combine sex characteristics from both heteronormative sexes, but that's just an impossible daydream, and being unable to attain it I'm content to remain whatever I happen to be; one sex is as good as another.

I've twice in my life, back in my college years (in Psychology and Sociology of Human Sexuality classes), taken gender-role surveys and in both cases come out almost even across the three categories of "masculine", "feminine", and "androgynous", with a slight bias toward androgyny. So I guess you'd describe me as androgynous with strong masculine and feminine streaks.

I'm pansexual in my fantasies (sexually aroused by men, women, and anyone in between), but for the most part I've had heterosexual relationships most of my life, with only a handful of homosexual ones. My first relationship was a gay one though, and for years it stood as the longest relationship I had ever had, compared to the string of much shorter straight relationships I had early in my adulthood, though I've had longer-still straight relationships since. (Among those straight relationships I'm including relationships with two transwomen, one pre-op and one post, aside from the various ciswomen that make up the bulk of them). One reason for this discrepancy between fantasy and behavior is that I know most of the world is straight, and it's hard enough as a man to approach a woman who likes men but may not like you, that approaching another man who in all likelihood doesn't like men at all and might be violently offended at the suggestion, just usually doesn't seem like a great prospect.

Another reason is that you might call me heteroromantic, but in a strange sense; I don't get (nonsexual) warm fuzzies about male-male or female-female relationships, but I get them about male-female relationships, regardless of which role I imagine myself in. I could fall in love with a man, as a woman, if I were one; but since I am biologically male, any non-platonic relationships I have with other men tend to stay on a sexual, not romantic, level, since I see us as two guys and don't get those warm fuzzies I get with women.

On another level you might almost call me asexual. I have a vivid sexual imagination, but it's not super important to me that I have another person to share sexual experiences with. I enjoy them when I do, but having someone to share those warm fuzzies with is a lot more important than having someone to bump uglies with. And even then, a large part of the enjoyment of having sex with another person is more about pride in bringing someone else pleasure, a specific instance of the more general pride of doing something well and getting (for lack of a better term) applause for a satisfying performance, than it is about pleasing myself. I get a similar thrill from singing or acting.

So that's me. I don't often spell this all out; I'm not in the closet about any of it, but like I said I'm very asocial and also play my cards close to my chest in all aspects of life, so most people seem to just assume, in my silence, that I'm a straight man, since I'm biologically male and I have girlfriends and don't usually have boyfriends. When I meet transpeople I'm always very tempted to talk about this, but I'm afraid I will be seen as diminishing or fetishizing their experience because I'm not dysphoric myself, and also because of my philosophical issues with socially constructed properties*. So... I guess I'm kind of wondering if there are other people like me out there, and either way, a place for me in the queer community somehow. Not that I'll be joining any clubs any time soon, but, it'd be nice to know if I can feel safe expressing this around the kind of people who do join those clubs. Instead of just saying "I'm a bi man", and leaving out anything about wanting to have or wanting to be anything besides one of the two heteronormative sexes.


*Philosophical issues with socially constructed properties spoilered to avoid offense and argument:
Spoiler:
Deleted actually since people are so upset about them. If you really want to know what my issues with socially constructed properties are, PM me, please don't ask in this thread. I spoilered them in the first place so that people wouldn't have to ask here and the subsequent argument that happened wouldn't happen. Oh well.
[EDITED: Spoilered content deleted]
Last edited by Pfhorrest on Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:49 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Brace » Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:06 pm UTC

The gap in your understanding is the lack of dysphoria, which is literally a marker of brain sex (as in neurological brain sex, a physical attribute, not anything soft you can handwave away). I genuinely don't understand how you could think about this subject to any degree without coming to that fairly common sense conclusion, or coming across the evidence corroborating it via google or something. Obnoxious.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Роберт » Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:08 pm UTC

Brace wrote:The gap in your understanding is the lack of dysphoria, which is literally a marker of brain sex. I genuinely don't understand how you could think about this subject to any degree without coming to that fairly common sense conclusion, or coming across the evidence corroborating it via google or something. Obnoxious.

That's kind of like complaining about a color-blind person not understanding the difference between red and green, though, isn't it?
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Brace » Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:12 pm UTC

It is, in that they can also google it and come across a perfectly intuitive model explaining the physical differences in light in terms of wavelength, what causes shifts in wavelength, and the mechanisms by which the eye processes input. The fact that they can never personally experience the qualia associated with "red" or "green" is pretty much irrelevant. This post had objectionable content.

Also Obama won and my state legalized weed. Unrelated but yay.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Azrael001 » Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:30 pm UTC

Pfhorrest, watch this. It's part of a Stanford Lecture, the professor explains quite well what you apparently know nothing about.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby felltir » Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:15 pm UTC

Роберт wrote:
Brace wrote:The gap in your understanding is the lack of dysphoria, which is literally a marker of brain sex. I genuinely don't understand how you could think about this subject to any degree without coming to that fairly common sense conclusion, or coming across the evidence corroborating it via google or something. Obnoxious.

That's kind of like complaining about a color-blind person not understanding the difference between red and green, though, isn't it?

Well, in a way.
I, as a colourblind person, would never think to tell someone who's more aware of colour than I am that their interpretation of how things are is wrong.
I, as a cis person, would never think to tell someone who's more aware of gender than I am that their interpretation of how things are is wrong.

As a colourblind person, I don't think about colour much.
As a cis person, I don't think about gender much*.

So with both, I will let those who know better speak.

*I try and think about gender to better support people with genders they weren't assigned to. I don't need to do this for colour.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Pfhorrest » Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:37 pm UTC

I specifically didn't want to start an argument about this which is why I spoilered it (and only included it at all because otherwise I would have been very vague). I will watch that Stanford video when I'm on a computer with sound later. But that's not what I came here to talk about, I'm not here to downplay anyone else's experiences, just to express my own, and I kind of feel like this supposed safe space doesn't feel very safe now.

Let me try an analogy that might be a little less controversial and more sympathetic. I feel (analogously) like a bisexual man talking to gay men and wanting to say that I'm attracted to other men too, but I don't think girls are gross or anything, and I still enjoy having sex with them too, and that whether or not I was born this way or whatever isn't important to me, I like the way I am and it doesn't matter why I am that way.... but I'm afraid of being told "you're just greedy!" or that I'm diluting or downplaying their experience and their community by not being "completely gay"; that I'm some kind of poser or imposter, that I'm "really just a straight man with a sick fetish for men that makes a mockery of real gay men", which makes me feel like my experience is being downplayed and invalidated.

Replace "gay" with "trans", and "bi" with whatever the hell you'd call me, to complete the analogy.

I'm not saying anyone is actively doing this to me and I'm not smearing any community for being hostile or anything like that. I keep to myself too much to have even had the opportunity for that kind of interaction. But I've heard from other, more social people who are involved in the queer community that there are internal conflicts like that, like between the gay and bi communities, and it makes me afraid to express whatever you would call me for fear of getting that kind of reaction. I was hoping someone here would assuage those fears, but if anything the responses so far have heightened them.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby netcrusher88 » Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:42 pm UTC

You entered a safespace and, unasked, offered an uneducated dismissal of the identities of a substantial number of people who comprise it. People called you out for it and provided some materials with which to educate yourself. Nothing of whatever the hell you just said is anything like what happened.

Yes, if you're going to go around saying offensive things about others' identities you're not going to be welcomed into queer spaces with open arms. You say you want to learn; do so and you're welcome to stay. Don't complain if you're met with hostility when you say things which you know are offensive though.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Enuja » Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:04 pm UTC

It's really hard to make safe spaces work, when what makes different people safe is different. I've got a bisexual friend who feels deeply traumatized by the gay community (although it's getting better for him), and I remember, in this very thread, personally offending a non-cis, non-trans person when I was trying to be inclusive. We've got to be willing to listen to each other, and not to dismiss each other as privileged (cis-privledged, hetero-privledged, single-sexual-attraction privledged, whatever) and therefore automatically wrong when they expressing their own personal positions and sensitives. There will be un-resolveable conflicts between people who are trying to use the same safe spaces, and I think the best solution is to have this type of argument elsewhere. That said, I think that Pfhorrest's personal queer experiences fit here, even if I'm glad they spoiled the bit they spoiled and wonder if that part was completely appropriate for this space. What's not appropriate in this space is to insist to Pfhorrest that they must have a gender, whatever they may think about it.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby setzer777 » Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:22 pm UTC

I really wish our language was better at expressing certain things. It would be awesome if there were (non-loaded) terms to express something like: "I'm talking about something that exists as part of my identity and therefore is completely defined my me" vs "I'm talking about something that is operationally defined by a certain observable arrangement of matter, and therefore can only be definitely asserted after certain observations have been made".

Edit: Speaking of language, does anyone know the terms for "attracted to (fe)male secondary sex characteristics"? I know I've heard terms like that before (referring specifically to physical shapes without regard to sex or gender), but I can't remember them.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby sambot5 » Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:04 am UTC

Azrael001 wrote:Pfhorrest, watch this. It's part of a Stanford Lecture, the professor explains quite well what you apparently know nothing about.


I found that lecture fascinating! In regards to the mentioned brain region that is indicative of a person's gender identity, is it possible to test for it before death? This is purely conjecture, but it sounds like it could be a way to confirm someone's gender identity without requiring extensive therapy, expediting the process to beginning hormone therapy.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Brace » Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:07 am UTC

setzer777 wrote:Edit: Speaking of language, does anyone know the terms for "attracted to (fe)male secondary sex characteristics"? I know I've heard terms like that before (referring specifically to physical shapes without regard to sex or gender), but I can't remember them.


Gynophilic.

Pfhorrest wrote:I specifically didn't want to start an argument about this which is why I spoilered it (and only included it at all because otherwise I would have been very vague).

This post had objectionable content.

Pfhorrest wrote:Replace "gay" with "trans", and "bi" with whatever the hell you'd call me, to complete the analogy.


There isn't evidence that what you're describing is even a real thing, and you're couching it in a framework that requires rejecting the experiences of the people you're talking to, as well as rejecting considerable evidence which vindicates their experiences. What you're describing also doesn't appear to have any concrete social consequences, thus making its relevance start and end with what gets you off. This post had objectionable content.
Last edited by Brace on Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:19 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Brace » Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:14 am UTC

Enuja wrote:What's not appropriate in this space is to insist to Pfhorrest that they must have a gender, whatever they may think about it.


This isn't a thing that happened. I don't have a conceptual problem with people who are agendered, null, or androgynous. This post had objectionable content.
Last edited by Brace on Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:23 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby poxic » Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:21 am UTC

*raises hand* I'm agendered. (I think. Hard to tell when I really don't know what "feeling" a gender feels like.)
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Alice3173 » Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:34 am UTC

XJ_0 wrote:I don't find this a moot point. It doesn't seem to be in that "list" of requirements to be trans, and most cis people don't seem to realize how many of us really really don't want to be trans. (Considering cis people are the majority, that's the majority of people not knowing, not accepting, or thinking otherwise on this "moot" point.) v_v

Maybe I didn't explain it well enough. What I mean by calling it a moot point is that I am trans no matter how much I may wish to just lead a perfectly normal life, if you get what I mean. So thinking about it couldn't possibly accomplish anything productive for me. (Or am I misunderstanding what you meant? I'm not sure, my mind is kinda bleh today.)

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Pfhorrest » Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:36 am UTC

Enuja wrote:It's really hard to make safe spaces work, when what makes different people safe is different. I've got a bisexual friend who feels deeply traumatized by the gay community (although it's getting better for him), and I remember, in this very thread, personally offending a non-cis, non-trans person when I was trying to be inclusive. We've got to be willing to listen to each other, and not to dismiss each other as privileged (cis-privledged, hetero-privledged, single-sexual-attraction privledged, whatever) and therefore automatically wrong when they expressing their own personal positions and sensitives. There will be un-resolveable conflicts between people who are trying to use the same safe spaces, and I think the best solution is to have this type of argument elsewhere. That said, I think that Pfhorrest's personal queer experiences fit here, even if I'm glad they spoiled the bit they spoiled and wonder if that part was completely appropriate for this space. What's not appropriate in this space is to insist to Pfhorrest that they must have a gender, whatever they may think about it.

Thank you Enuja, that really makes me feel a lot safer here again.

I kind of wish I had just been vague instead, but I thought that if I just said "philosophical issues/reasons" without the spoilered footnote someone would ask "what are you talking about?" and that would start the argument I'm trying not to have out loud in public here, so I thought it would be better to try to say which argument I'm afraid of having in a way that would avoid starting it instead. I'm not "philosophically against the idea of transgender" or anything like that; in fact that's precisely what I'm afraid of people thinking. I have a much broader (nothing specifically to do with the trans community) and what I consider fairly minor and technical opinion on the proper use of language (put in terms of in setzer777's post above, I basically wish everybody would always use the second kind of language, and I usually try to do so myself), but I know that that runs afoul of something considered sacred by the mainstream trans community, and so even though I always try to use the terms people want for themselves just to avoid having an argument over it, I'm always afraid that in casual conversation my preferred-use-of-language position will slip in somehow accidentally and cause unintended offense, which makes me afraid to talk about trans issues at all.

That's all I was trying to say: I'm usually afraid to talk about my own... gender experience I guess you'd call it... for two reasons, and one of them is that something I consider irrelevant to the issue might unintentionally cause major offense to someone who considers it highly relevant. And I tried to say what that something was (since someone would ask anyway if I just put it that vaguely) in a way that might best avoid causing offense or starting an argument over it when that wasn't really my purpose in being here.

My main purpose in coming here was looking for assurance on the second reason I'm usually afraid to talk about my gender experience, which that I suppose I am, as Enuja put it, "a non-cis, non-trans person". When I meet trans people I want to express.. I guess you might say solidarity with them, to an extent, because I too... I don't even know how to state this in a way that I feel won't offend somehow, but I too am interested in being a different sex, just not in the same way, to the same extent, or for the same reasons. So I don't feel comfortable calling myself "trans" because my experience doesn't seem to fit the usual experience of people who do call themselves that. And yet it's clearly not the same as an ordinary cisman who is very attached to being male and wouldn't for a moment dream of being anything else. So I don't know how to express that solidarity to trans people without seeming like I completely misunderstand their experience; I know mine isn't exactly like theirs and differs in some major ways, but there are some similarities too and I would like to be able to connect with people over those similarities without seeming unaware of the differences.

Basically, I don't really know what to call myself, or if there are even enough other people like me for it to be worth coining a term, and I don't know how such people are thought of in the queer community in general, but I'm afraid from what I've read that it would be poorly. I saw the label "pangendered" once and latched onto it as something to say at least, but I'm still not entirely sure it really applies properly or is a term others will know or accept. I don't like being locked into any particular gender "box", but I'm more than happy to hang around in any of them (whether we're talking about social roles or physical sex here); is "pangendered" the right term for that?

On that note, I note that Enuja calling me "they"; while on second thought I think that's kind of cool (I like the idea of a genderless and numberless language with only the terms "we", "you", and "they"), on first thought I thought that sounded strained and ungrammatical and was going to say that you're welcome to call me "he" for the simplicity of avoiding such linguistic gymnastics. But that's not a request to be called "he" either; I really don't care what pronouns get applied to me and I've accidentally "screwed them up" myself in casual conversation (e.g. a woman talking about something that happened "when [she] was a little girl", and then I relate a similar story from my childhood and begin it be unconsciously repeating her phrase "when I was a little girl..."). Just this weekend actually, out eating dinner with my girlfriend after some fun dressing me up in drag, I still had the lipstick and nail polish on and my long hair down and a close shave, but was otherwise wearing the same T-shirt and jeans I wear every day and I don't think I should have convincingly passed as a woman, but the waitress kept addressing us as "you ladies", and I was somewhat pleased by that.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Eseell » Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:45 am UTC

I know a few people who, I believe from your description, are similarly gendered (or pangendered, if you prefer). They present as the gender they feel like at the moment, and aren't particularly interested in being "male" or "female" permanently. Both of the people whom I know relatively well who identify this way refer to themselves as "genderqueer." I don't know if that is a label that speaks to you, but for what it's worth, you aren't alone.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby apricity » Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:40 am UTC

Mod note: Please keep the philosophical comments out of this thread from now on. Spoilered or not, they lead to debate and don't belong in the Safespace. You can feel free to create new threads in General for those kinds of discussions. Right now, they need to stop in here. This thread is not a place where people should ever feel like they have to educate others, so with that in mind, this particular discussion is over.

Please also keep attacking remarks out of the Safespace, and report comments that you believe break Safespace rules, rather than responding to them.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby XJ_0 » Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:32 am UTC

Alice3173 wrote:
XJ_0 wrote:I don't find this a moot point. It doesn't seem to be in that "list" of requirements to be trans, and most cis people don't seem to realize how many of us really really don't want to be trans. (Considering cis people are the majority, that's the majority of people not knowing, not accepting, or thinking otherwise on this "moot" point.) v_v

Maybe I didn't explain it well enough. What I mean by calling it a moot point is that I am trans no matter how much I may wish to just lead a perfectly normal life, if you get what I mean. So thinking about it couldn't possibly accomplish anything productive for me. (Or am I misunderstanding what you meant? I'm not sure, my mind is kinda bleh today.)

I thought that you had meant it to be a "moot point" as in generally*, and not just specific to you and your circumstances. I'm sorry.

*I guess it went through my head that talking about "not wanting to be trans" was seen as not important to talk about in trans issues.


Edit: I guess I also find it to be a very important issue to talk about in my life. Again, I'm sorry for this misunderstanding. v_v

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Alice3173 » Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:16 am UTC

I could have probably been a bit more clear with what I was saying as well so no worries. :D

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Brace » Thu Nov 08, 2012 6:52 pm UTC

I can't think of anything meaningful to do with my life that is also possible and socially acceptable.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Eseell » Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:38 pm UTC

Why does it have to be socially acceptable? I saw Lee Harrington, a trans man, speak the other night. I'm pretty sure that what he does isn't socially acceptable, but I do know that he's amazing and does meaningful, life-changing work.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Azrael001 » Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:57 pm UTC

There is also the old stand by. You could try to take over the world.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Brace » Thu Nov 08, 2012 8:33 pm UTC

Eseell wrote:Why does it have to be socially acceptable? I saw Lee Harrington, a trans man, speak the other night. I'm pretty sure that what he does isn't socially acceptable, but I do know that he's amazing and does meaningful, life-changing work.


It was a euphemism for violence.

Azrael001 wrote:There is also the old stand by. You could try to take over the world.


I don't have the training, manpower, wealth, charisma, or logistics for that.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Azrael001 » Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:06 pm UTC

Just remember Brace, sucking at something is the first step to becoming sorta good at something.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

Postby WilliamTheConqueror » Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:41 pm UTC

Hi, I'm William! c:

So, I have a question for anybody who knows the answer.

I see the terms of my gender as sort of a sliding scale, with masculinity on the left, androgyny in the middle, and femininity on the right. most days i "feel" pretty androgynous, leaning towards masculine, and some days i feel very feminine or completely androgynous. (i dress accordingly.) is this considered being genderqueer? i'm not very learned in terminology and i've been wanting a label for myself because i like labels and they make me feel comfy uwu

also does anyone have any tips on how to look more androgynous? i was born a female and i can bind (at least, until i can get my boobs taken off), but my face is still pretty femme looking. D:


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