[SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQA Thread - Queer Support!

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby happy-go-lucky » Mon Apr 27, 2009 5:27 pm UTC

Ok, I'll stop talking about it now then.

I've not heard of the Kinsey scale before, but after looking it up on wikipedia I'd put myself at about a 4, maybe a 5.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby StrengthInFaith » Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:14 pm UTC

About to go shopping for girl clothes for the first time. *Extremely nervous* I'm having to go alone, since everyone I know is working/at school today. Going to try and look for some makeup as well.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby CueBall » Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:34 pm UTC

Good luck. :)

I am happy there's thread like this.

I'd like to say on the subject of terms, that my friends all casually use words like "fag" and "queer" to me, and also I am called to in that way sometimes by them. They describe things as gay, as well. I, as a gay man, have no problems with that. That's because they're my friends, and they know it's okay to me, the same way we (very much jokingly) mock others for other traits. However, if anyone but someone I knew very well was to do that, I would be very offended, because that's not something I want to hear from anyone who would ever mean it in an insulting way.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread

Postby Aiko » Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:59 pm UTC

I know that I like both girls and guys, although like Delalyra, I'm more a 2 than a 3 on the Kinsey scale. But it's weird to refer to myself as bisexual, and weird to even come out and say it like I just did.
So I have a question. When in a relationship would you tell someone you're bi? Do they need to know? I kind of feel like they should... i mean, I'm much too young now, but if I was to someday get married to a guy and not have him know I'm bi?
And I'm superconfused because I can't really picture myself in a LTR with a girl. A large part of me thinks that's because I've never dated a girl seriously, and a small part of me thinks that maybe I shouldn't call myself bi, then. I'm confused. And another part of me is like "oh, it's just a phase". And maybe it is, but then should I ignore and pretend it isn't there?

I don't know. More than anything else, I'm confused, as you can all see. And I apologize for the general rambleness of this post.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread

Postby Hyphe » Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:10 pm UTC

Aiko wrote:And another part of me is like "oh, it's just a phase". And maybe it is, but then should I ignore and pretend it isn't there?

Of course not. Sexuality is a fluid changeable thing, and is equally valid regardless of how long each 'phase' lasts.

As for telling partners, I can't really help, as I've always been very outspoken about my preferences - everyone I've dated knew about it beforehand. I've always just treated it as any other opinion I have - if they comment on how cute/ugly a particular person is, I can wade straight in with what I think, and most people get the hint.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread

Postby Belial » Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:19 pm UTC

Aiko wrote:And I'm superconfused because I can't really picture myself in a LTR with a girl. A large part of me thinks that's because I've never dated a girl seriously, and a small part of me thinks that maybe I shouldn't call myself bi, then.


A couple thoughts, to be taken with extreme salt because they're coming from a straight guy who doesn't really know you:

-Feel free to keep calling yourself bi. There's a reason the term is "bisexual". The absolute baseline requirement is just that you're sexually attracted to both genders, not that you necessarily want to move in and share toothbrushes and grow old together.

-Consider the possibility, however, that the reason you can't see yourself in an LTR with a girl (but you can and do with boys) is because you're surrounded with examples and rolemodels for hetero LTRs, but no such wealth of examples for lesbian relationships. When you see dozens of different examples and permutations of girl-boy romance, it's easy to synthesize them together into something you can place yourself in, but without those examples you don't have much of a mental schema for how-that-would-go.

-Of course, it might not be that at all and you just might not feel all LTR-y about girls because that's just how you are.

-So who knows. Not like there's a great need to figure it out Oh me yarm IMMEdIATELY. Pursue people who interest you, and let the relationships go how they go and maybe they'll surprise you and maybe they won't. Life is like that.

-But definitely tell your SO(s). Honesty is a hell of a thing, and do you really want to be with someone who is going to freak out over something that is an aspect of who you are? Fuck that noise, seriously.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby fyrenwater » Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:58 am UTC

Like Hyphe said, sexuality is fluid. It changes throughout your life, so don't think it's a permanent thing. It may be short-term (a "phase") or long-term, just don't assume that the short thing is for everyone. It could be someone's lifestyle and they could get offended at that theory.

Ignoring stuff doesn't help. If you're not sure, how else are you supposed to find out? Go date and see what happens. Might be fair to warn the other person that you're not sure. If you don't want to date, go talk with people. If you're sure your friends/family would accept this, go talk to them. Even if they don't know what it's like, at least they could support you while you work it out.

A GLBTQ/BGLAD/whatever group is likely to be a safe place, too. And if you're too shy to talk about it with a group, a counselor would work, too. Don't let anyone force any sexuality or preferences onto you, though. Just find what works for you and figure it out in a controlled manner. That means slowly easing into relationships or asking yourself the right questions, not wild sex and orgies.

Personally, I figured this stuff out with help from some friends and counselors. Sure, I lost some "friends" along the way, but I wouldn't want to associate with anyone who thinks that only "normal" straight relationships are moral and "natural". Also, it took four years until I reached a point where I felt I was fairly certain. It's bound to change eventually, but for the time being, it's steady.

[edit] If you haven't, check out the Kinsey scale, heteroflexible & homoflexible, bicurious, questioning, affectional orientation, and so on. The LGBT portal on Wikipedia actually helps a lot.
...It made more sense in my head.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby popprocks » Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:14 am UTC

I've been doing research for supporting 'gay marriage' in a speech for english. . . I stumbled upon a few pretty stinging connection to the 'gay rights' movement and the 'civil (color) rights' movement. First thing's first, people almost universally refer to homosexual equality as 'gay rights', versus when the civil rights movement came and went, it was called 'equal rights.' This difference of word choice seems to imply that gay people want 'special' 'gay rights' instead of just the rights everybody else has, and as such people who oppose gay marriage treat them like they're making an absurd claim for special treatment. Another fairly awesome connection was that the black folk got a lot of 'separate but equal' bullshit from politicians who sent them to worse schools and gave them worse living conditions etc. from white people claiming that it was 'separate but equal.' Once again, this same tactic goes into play with the idea of 'civil unions' as people say that gays aren't 'pure/good/natural' enough for marriage, so we're going to separate them 'equally' with civil unions.

Pretty cool stuff.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread

Postby H.E.L.e.N. » Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:23 am UTC

Belial wrote:-But definitely tell your SO(s). Honesty is a hell of a thing, and do you really want to be with someone who is going to freak out over something that is an aspect of who you are? Fuck that noise, seriously.


I'm...reading a lot into this here, but they might not be talking about the sense that there's necessarily danger in telling an SO, but more of an 'Oh me yarm is this just silly and should I really bother telling anyone and if I change my mind will they ever respect me as a person' kind of concern. Because I can remember being in that kind of a mindset.

So: I think 'should I bother hiding it?' is a better/less stressful approach than 'should I bother telling ?' Because my perspective is pretty clearly no, you shouldn't bother hiding personal-identity-type things from SOs (and if it's a situation where you feel you have to, then something's wrong). And if it doesn't turn out to be a huge part of your life that is OK, but it's worth it not to put any extra energy into concealment.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread

Postby Belial » Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:57 am UTC

H.E.L.e.N. wrote:
Belial wrote:-But definitely tell your SO(s). Honesty is a hell of a thing, and do you really want to be with someone who is going to freak out over something that is an aspect of who you are? Fuck that noise, seriously.


I'm...reading a lot into this here, but they might not be talking about the sense that there's necessarily danger in telling an SO, but more of an 'Oh me yarm is this just silly and should I really bother telling anyone and if I change my mind will they ever respect me as a person' kind of concern. Because I can remember being in that kind of a mindset.

So: I think 'should I bother hiding it?' is a better/less stressful approach than 'should I bother telling ?' Because my perspective is pretty clearly no, you shouldn't bother hiding personal-identity-type things from SOs (and if it's a situation where you feel you have to, then something's wrong). And if it doesn't turn out to be a huge part of your life that is OK, but it's worth it not to put any extra energy into concealment.


Fair! Your reading makes more sense, at which point I agree.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby fyrenwater » Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:05 am UTC

Okay, not related to marriage, dating, or such, but definitely related to the thread. I learned a new acronym today: FABGLITTER.

Fetish
Allies
Bisexual
Gay
Lesbian
Intersex
Transgender
Transsexual
Engendering
Revolution
(It's from Anything That Moves, a magazine created for bisexuals but has branched to encompass all of the above.)

Can we add this to the thread title? :D
...It made more sense in my head.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Shivahn » Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:49 am UTC

I kind of like the thread title as it is now... FABGLITTER is an interesting acronym but...

Well, I like the way "questioning" is in the current title, as I feel otherwise I wouldn't be properly represented under it. And I can't find a place to add a Q in FABGLITTER... We don't have a tongue-sticking-out-smiley, do we? Let's pretend we do and I put one there.

I don't mean to be a wet blanket or anything, I just kind of like it as it is, and don't feel like I fit under FABGLITTER properly.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby poxic » Tue Apr 28, 2009 6:58 am UTC

Likewise. FABGLITTER is lovely, but completely unrelated to me. I'd rather see it as a colourful sig on people's posts, if they like it. :D
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby sje46 » Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:03 am UTC

Hi, S.
(OP suggested identifying what your orientation is, and I'm straight).
I have a question. How do you all feel about effeminancy? As in the stereotypical flaming, like obsessed with fashion, celebrities, saying "Oh no you di'nt, girlfriend", Queer Eye For THe Straight Guy) etc . . . I ask because I honestly don't know how the non hetero community feels about it besides on TV. Do you feel like they are some sort of embarrassment? That they are trying to offend? Is this trying to offend (As in, confront their sensibilities) a bad thing (because they may perpetuate stereotypes and because they might be seen as purposely provoking) or good (because it's part of the culture and it's good to confront people about their beliefs)? Is it wrong to be annoyed by them? Personally, I find myself kinda annoyed when someone is very extreme about it, and I feel like they are perpetuating false stereotypes. But then again that's like saying a black man is perpetuating stereotypes by liking rap music.
I think I already know the answer to my question, but I would like to hear this from the other side (seeing as I know basically no one who is gay or anything, at least, not open about it).
I want you to know that I'm not trying to pass judegment right now or anything; I really just want to know what you think.
*gives support*
Oh, btw, at my school it's LGBTIQQA+, I think. I can't remember.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Zohar » Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:09 am UTC

sje46 wrote: (seeing as I know basically no one who is gay or anything, at least, not open about it).

Yeah, this. You know gay people, you just don't know they're gay.

Anyway, I think flamboyancy and extravagance just to seem outrageous is kind of annoying. If the person is trying to attract attention, it doesn't seem very sincere. If however the person who does this actually acts this way because that's who they are, then of course it's OK. I don't think I'd be attracted to a "girly" guy, but I won't have problems with them if I felt they were sincere about who they are. Just saying "This is who I am and I'll sing at the top of my lungs in the streets if I want to" is fine, but there's also the issue of, you know, not shouting in streets.

What I mean is, generally I don't have a problem with it unless:
1. It's done just to make a statement. I don't care too much for statements.
2. It's not sincere.
3. It's just rude, regardless of who does it. I know this particular point varies wildly between different people.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby TheKrikkitWars » Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:36 am UTC

We Have UWB LGBT Pride; which is active in the city at large as well as the Uni; Their work has created an unusually strong gay community (possibly related to the fact that bangor was the first place to have a signifcant welsh speaking gay community), and the whole city is execptionally tolerant . I must admit that being straight I'm not exactly clued up on them beyond talking to the campaigns officer (who's in labs with me) and going to "Fruit Salad" when the whole of the su's two nighclubs are turned over to them for social and fundraising purposes; as one of the best nights out in bangor this has become wildly successful.

Unfortunately this couldn't be more contrasting with my friend's experience, He came out to a close group of his friends, and his twin sister when he was 17, but has never told his parents... He really struggles with his identity as a catholic and a gay man, which aside from a degree of anger towards the church and sometimes life, is something that he doesn't cope with. When he went to uni, he was out about his preference, and joined LGBT, but found that a majorety of members were a bit too pushy about how they thought he should go about being who he was, he got uncomfortable with the society, and now rarely attends anything other than their singles nights. Shame is he freely admits, that he really struggles with who he is still, and where he is, but he has no-one who's been there already to help guide him.

It feels a bit awkward that if I needed it I could find access to the support he needs within a couple of hours. Though it makes me proud of the Uni, City and LGBT Pride organisation for their achevement.

Also, can anyone suggest UK based support organisations I could put my friend onto?
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby natraj » Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:53 pm UTC

sje46 wrote:(OP suggested identifying what your orientation is, and I'm straight).


Actually, the only thing the OP said about identifying your orientation is that you don't have to feel obligated to do it :D (But you're more than welcome to! I'm just stating that in case anyone reads it and later feels like they should, even though it is in no way necessary.)

sje46 wrote:I have a question. How do you all feel about effeminancy? As in the stereotypical flaming, like obsessed with fashion, celebrities, saying "Oh no you di'nt, girlfriend", Queer Eye For THe Straight Guy) etc . . . I ask because I honestly don't know how the non hetero community feels about it besides on TV. Do you feel like they are some sort of embarrassment? That they are trying to offend? Is this trying to offend (As in, confront their sensibilities) a bad thing (because they may perpetuate stereotypes and because they might be seen as purposely provoking) or good (because it's part of the culture and it's good to confront people about their beliefs)? Is it wrong to be annoyed by them?


I feel like I have no right to dictate what other people's gender expression should be like. I feel like the burden of ridding the world of stereotypes does not fall on the stereotypee but on the stereotyper, and trying to tell people that they can't be who they are because who they are is perpetuating stereotypes is in itself a harmful hurtful stereotype-perpetuating thing. I feel like the only people who are an "embarrassment" to our community are the people who would try to tell other people to hide who they are because they are somehow offended by their gender presentation. I feel like your question about whether their "trying to offend" is a good/bad thing is an invalid question in itself, because people aren't putting on some sort of performance for me to critique its cultural impact by being open about themselves. I also feel like the "That they are trying to offend?" and "Is it wrong to be annoyed by them?" questions set a very unpleasant tone for that entire post.

It all feels so extremely much like the Very Many people who are like "Oh, yes, I don't mind gay people so long as they don't flaunt it" and oh boy do I omniloathe those sentiments with a passion. Like [X people] get to somehow be arbiters of whose sexuality/gender identity expression is valid and whose isn't, and anyone who crosses the line that [X people] (who are, generally, people with more privilege; passing privilege, at least, even if not actually straight/cis privilege) decide are bad and we get to scoff at them and tell them how much harm they're doing to those of us who are Proper and Not An Embarrassment.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Belial » Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:44 pm UTC

Not to mention the implied misogyny inherent in the disdain for effeminacy. Oh no. Don't be like a woman. You have boy parts. It would be wrong to lower yourself like that.

In most cases, it's difficult to tell where homophobia stops and misogyny starts, really.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Aiko » Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:08 pm UTC

Thanks for all the advice. It really helped me to feel a lot better :)

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Van » Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:23 am UTC

StrengthInFaith wrote:About to go shopping for girl clothes for the first time. *Extremely nervous* I'm having to go alone, since everyone I know is working/at school today. Going to try and look for some makeup as well.

Spoiler:
dangerous_to_go_alone.jpg
I'm sorry, I had to
dangerous_to_go_alone.jpg (11.6 KiB) Viewed 11498 times

It's probably totally late, but good luck! By now you're probably done, so hopefully it went well. My first (who am I kidding, only) time shopping in a store, I went into a Sephora outlet to try and get some professional advice on foundation, and I was so nervous that I managed to get out "I need some foundation" and then stood there frozen and uncomfortable looking. Being 6'3 in a store with 5' high mini-aisles that was packed wasn't helping either.

I've since gotten some really good advice, which I haven't had a chance to use yet, which basically went: supreme confidence wins the day. If you act like you own the place, no one is going to give you a second glance, even if you're 'out of place'. If someone looks at you strangely, make a point of making conversation with them, or asking for help if it's an employee. Sounds good in theory, in practice, well.. easier said than done!

Related to that, I have a question. It's a bit out of place, but meh. I have a problem with people. I like them, I like being around them, but interacting is foreign to the point of being scary. To put it in perspective, I'm comfortable interacting with close friends on the internet, but even around people that I like and would like to get to know (such as.. here), I can't overcome my nervousness enough to post consistently, it's only when something that I really, really care about comes up that I can muster the required courage. That's the internet, which compared to IRL, is "safe and easy". Obviously this is bad, even for a person with a normal boring life, but it's much worse for someone that is going to be drawing extra scrutiny, say, from being a transsexual. How do I fix myself? :(
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby StrengthInFaith » Wed Apr 29, 2009 2:58 am UTC

Van wrote:
Spoiler:
dangerous_to_go_alone.jpg

It's probably totally late, but good luck! By now you're probably done, so hopefully it went well. My first (who am I kidding, only) time shopping in a store, I went into a Sephora outlet to try and get some professional advice on foundation, and I was so nervous that I managed to get out "I need some foundation" and then stood there frozen and uncomfortable looking. Being 6'3 in a store with 5' high mini-aisles that was packed wasn't helping either.

I've since gotten some really good advice, which I haven't had a chance to use yet, which basically went: supreme confidence wins the day. If you act like you own the place, no one is going to give you a second glance, even if you're 'out of place'. If someone looks at you strangely, make a point of making conversation with them, or asking for help if it's an employee. Sounds good in theory, in practice, well.. easier said than done!

Related to that, I have a question. It's a bit out of place, but meh. I have a problem with people. I like them, I like being around them, but interacting is foreign to the point of being scary. To put it in perspective, I'm comfortable interacting with close friends on the internet, but even around people that I like and would like to get to know (such as.. here), I can't overcome my nervousness enough to post consistently, it's only when something that I really, really care about comes up that I can muster the required courage. That's the internet, which compared to IRL, is "safe and easy". Obviously this is bad, even for a person with a normal boring life, but it's much worse for someone that is going to be drawing extra scrutiny, say, from being a transsexual. How do I fix myself? :(


Thanks! That made me smile :D It went okay. I didn't manage to muster enough nerve to buy any clothes, but I did get makeup. Learning how to apply it is another thing entirely!

I have the same problem around people :oops: I am extremely nervous and shy and anxious and scared. *Hugs for everyone who goes through this* I'd love some advice about this too. Does anyone have any tips?

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby semicharmed » Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:42 am UTC

Van wrote:To put it in perspective, I'm comfortable interacting with close friends on the internet, but even around people that I like and would like to get to know (such as.. here), I can't overcome my nervousness enough to post consistently, it's only when something that I really, really care about comes up that I can muster the required courage. That's the internet, which compared to IRL, is "safe and easy". Obviously this is bad, even for a person with a normal boring life, but it's much worse for someone that is going to be drawing extra scrutiny, say, from being a transsexual. How do I fix myself? :(

Maybe find a super-specific forum for something that you're really interested in? I could start naming things off the top of my head, but since I don't know many super-specific fora or know what really would get you excited to post, but I do know a couple, so re-post/PM/AIM if you want suggestions?
I'm also looking for (undergrad) thesis feedback right now, and would be more than willing to send you bits of thesis just for you know, practice at internet interaction? /grasping at straws that you get super-excited about proofreading.
But (more) seriously, practice at interacting. Maybe take up a sport/hobby that requires interaction but not necessarily conversation. Rock climbing? Ballroom dancing? Swing dancing?

StrengthInFaith wrote:I have the same problem around people :oops: I am extremely nervous and shy and anxious and scared. *Hugs for everyone who goes through this* I'd love some advice about this too. Does anyone have any tips?

The second half of my advice to Van holds: try to find something you'll enjoy that will force you to interact, even just a little, in a relatively low-pressure situation. Or at least in the case of say, dance lessons, a situation where everyone is going to be just as nervous/anxious/scared as you.
Also, realizing that other people are much less concerned about you than they are about themselves. And how nervous/anxious/awkward they themselves feel.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby steewi » Wed Apr 29, 2009 6:00 am UTC

*waves at thread*

I'm about an M5 (Kinsey), but lacking experience (it'll come - so will I!).

I'm effeminate in some ways, but not so much as most people pick it up as obvious. I think it's difficult to be truly effeminate with a beard, but I can sashay with the best of them if I have the need. I'm not attracted to effeminacy at all, but don't disapprove of it. I'm also a bit of a bear, but not tough or manly enough to really fit in there.

The local GSA-style group is called Jellybabies. I don't know why. I don't really have anything to do with them, mostly because I'm only out in a very limited way (on the net and close friends). I've become more confident in the last few months though. I'm more obvious about checking guys out and less worried about "looking gay". When someone says something about flirting with guys, I don't deny it.

EDIT: A more glib acronym I've seen is LGBTQwtf

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby poxic » Wed Apr 29, 2009 6:03 am UTC

steewi wrote:LGBTQwtf

*snerk*

*waves back*
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby PictureSarah » Wed Apr 29, 2009 6:05 am UTC

StrengthInFaith wrote:I didn't manage to muster enough nerve to buy any clothes, but I did get makeup. Learning how to apply it is another thing entirely!


I know I've plugged it before on the fora, but the book "Making Faces" by Kevyn Aucoin is a pretty awesome makeup book. It has really easy instructions, beautiful photography, doesn't expect the reader to have a ton of money to spend, and is pretty socially-inclusive (has instructions for biological males who want to present as men or as women, and portrays a variety of races and ages).
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby StrengthInFaith » Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:58 pm UTC

PictureSarah wrote:I know I've plugged it before on the fora, but the book "Making Faces" by Kevyn Aucoin is a pretty awesome makeup book. It has really easy instructions, beautiful photography, doesn't expect the reader to have a ton of money to spend, and is pretty socially-inclusive (has instructions for biological males who want to present as men or as women, and portrays a variety of races and ages).


Thank you! I'll definitely look it up. It sounds like just the thing I need.

Went out in public (somewhat) with makeup for the first time today. Granted, it was only to mow the lawn, but it's a step! :D

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Van » Thu Apr 30, 2009 3:17 am UTC

semicharmed wrote:Maybe find a super-specific forum for something that you're really interested in? I could start naming things off the top of my head, but since I don't know many super-specific fora or know what really would get you excited to post, but I do know a couple, so re-post/PM/AIM if you want suggestions?
I'm also looking for (undergrad) thesis feedback right now, and would be more than willing to send you bits of thesis just for you know, practice at internet interaction? /grasping at straws that you get super-excited about proofreading.
But (more) seriously, practice at interacting. Maybe take up a sport/hobby that requires interaction but not necessarily conversation. Rock climbing? Ballroom dancing? Swing dancing?

:oops:
Spoiler:
A large part of it is a distinct lack of faith in my ability to add anything to a given conversation. I, er, had no education beyond the 3rd grade, and thus more or less everything I know was learned through osmosis or my love of reading books/Wikipedia. About the only thing I have faith in is my love of wordplay and puns, which is hardly a good building block for conversation. On a related note, you can probably guess my effectiveness at thesis assistance from this as well. Sorry!


I've been thinking about trying to locate a P&P gaming group in the area, but I'm not really even sure how to find one. That's about my best idea for locating something I'm interested in. Dancing is definitely out. :P
PictureSarah wrote:I know I've plugged it before on the fora, but the book "Making Faces" by Kevyn Aucoin is a pretty awesome makeup book.

I know you've plugged it before, because I bought it after your plug. And I'll back up your plug with a plug of my own: I picked it up off the shelf at a Borders a while back, and it's an awesome book!

There's definitely a learning curve involved. It'd probably help if you have a background in drawing/painting, a good eye, or willing and helpful friends/family. I have none of the above, so I found http://www.eyeslipsface.com/ (more or less everything they sell is $1. including brushes. it's epic!) and just went at it in a very repetitive manner. Oh, and if you go the learning through repetition route, I'd definitely invest in some eye makeup remover. :D I'm not 100% sure if ELF sells any, I got mine off Amazon, but it was definitely worth it.

On a somewhat related note, I just finished reading through my therapist's 61k draft of my HRT letter, which took almost 2 months longer than I expected. But it's here, and I'm more happy than anything. How screwed up is that? I'm excited and happy because I was essentially just diagnosed with a mental illness. Woo!
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby crickets » Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:28 am UTC

I'm totally still crisis-ing about having no idea what i'm looking for. And i'm terribly scared of becoming involved with someone and being that person who goes "I can't date you anymore because you're a boy/girl".

It's making me feel entirely defective. No matter how much my friends tell me it's not a big deal, the fact that having a guy touch me makes me physically nauseated/panicky is really unsettling.

And yes, for me, it all comes down to sex. Which makes me feel EXTRA STUPID about the whole thing, because in reality, there's more to relationships than just that. I just... i remember what having sex with a guy is like. And i can very much remember just wanting it to be over. I ran into that problem much less with my lady... but now that we're not having a sexual relationship i find myself craving attention... but i can't get it. Because i have no idea how to approach a girl, and i have no confidence in bed with one, but the thought of actually having sex with another guy makes me want to cry....

This makes no sense. I know that. I just wish i knew what to do.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby DJorgensen » Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:48 am UTC

Go with the flow.
You're better than you give yourself credit for. Far better. You are good at hitting on people, just talk to them and be cute and cuddly and attentive and tender. If things progress to the bedroom, make no promises and explain that you are not overly experience, but be willing and enthusiastic to follow their lead and communicate.
Again you are better than you give yourself credit for (I think most anyone is guilty of that).
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby ZLVT » Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:01 am UTC

steewi wrote:*waves at thread*

I'm about an M5 (Kinsey), but lacking experience (it'll come - so will I!).

I'm effeminate in some ways, but not so much as most people pick it up as obvious. I think it's difficult to be truly effeminate with a beard, but I can sashay with the best of them if I have the need. I'm not attracted to effeminacy at all, but don't disapprove of it. I'm also a bit of a bear, but not tough or manly enough to really fit in there.

The local GSA-style group is called Jellybabies. I don't know why. I don't really have anything to do with them, mostly because I'm only out in a very limited way (on the net and close friends). I've become more confident in the last few months though. I'm more obvious about checking guys out and less worried about "looking gay". When someone says something about flirting with guys, I don't deny it.


HA! I knew it...admittedly I could have asked but that would be too simple. The pelvic thrusts gave it away I think.

what's GSA?

Does anyone else think the Kinsey scale needs to be re-done? Like a 4D model with sexual/emotional attraction to men/women. That's why I didn't reply on the what's your kinsey scale thing. I'd be a 1, maybe a 2, but that doesn't quite describe it...
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Belial » Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:17 am UTC

ZLVT wrote:what's GSA?


Gay-Straight Alliance. I'm mostly aware of it as a student organization on campuses.

Does anyone else think the Kinsey scale needs to be re-done? Like a 4D model with sexual/emotional attraction to men/women. That's why I didn't reply on the what's your kinsey scale thing. I'd be a 1, maybe a 2, but that doesn't quite describe it...


Well, Kinsey was a sex researcher above all, so I can imagine why he didn't deem it relevant to his research...
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Maelstrom. » Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:13 pm UTC

Bah. I walked through uni today, holding hands with my guy.

You know when you see something different, you know you shouldnt look at? Like someone dressed in a really strange way? You look at them, go 'wtf', but then you look away and make an effort *not* to look, and try to seem casual about it. You dont mean to be rude, and in fact youre trying quite hard not to be, but the fact youre having to try is still rude just in and of itself. We got those kinda looks.

Oh and Im pretty sure the bus driver was being deliberately difficult when i got on the bus after kissing my boy farewell. But perhaps we brought that one upon our selves. *sigh*

Wait, no. Fuck that shit.
I can kiss a partner farewell.
No one is going to stop me.

I guess I cant really complain, there was nothing actually confronting or mean done at all, but it kinda made me feel awkward and uncomfortable. As much as I have been open about myself for years now, this is the first guy I've actually dated*. I knew that things like this would happen, but it really isnt nice having them happen at you for real. We dont quite feel safe being obvious with one another in public. There has been no obvious, or even subtle negative reactions from people around us that I've noticed, but just a general feeling of..... not being welcome. I am *sure* that we are not the only same sex** couple on campus, there are a few thousand people here after all, but I have yet to see a single couple anywhere except for us. Hopefully, if me and my boy are seen out and about on campus, it might give other couples the confidence to show? One can only hope.

* Well, if we are getting technical we are not atually dating. It's more friends, who also enjoy a bit of physical contact. Friends with benefits almost sounds right, but doesn't quite fit.
** I guess this should be "same gendered" couple, but for some reason no one uses that, and it just doesn't quite sound right :?

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby podbaydoor » Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:57 pm UTC

ZLVT wrote:Does anyone else think the Kinsey scale needs to be re-done? Like a 4D model with sexual/emotional attraction to men/women. That's why I didn't reply on the what's your kinsey scale thing. I'd be a 1, maybe a 2, but that doesn't quite describe it...

The Klein Grid tries to fill in the gaps in the Kinsey scale. I think it's quite interesting.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby Jessica » Thu Apr 30, 2009 2:52 pm UTC

I want to give everyone in this thread a big hug. You guys are all awesome.

Not much else to say though.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby abitha » Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:26 pm UTC

Van wrote:About the only thing I have faith in is my love of wordplay and puns, which is hardly a good building block for conversation.


I'd say this is a great building block for conversation! Obviously not so much as a topic, but as a skill to be used in conversation.

A few possible tips (speaking as someone who's never particularly had a problem with interacting, so my advice may be less useful than that of someone who's had problems and overcome them):
(spoilered for long, and also because it's kind of off-topic)

Spoiler:
1. It's more work making conversation with just one other person than it is in a small group (three or four people). If there's just two of you, it's down to you and that person to keep conversation flowing, but if it can be shared among a few, there's less work for each to do. Where possible, get involved in small group conversations rather than just approaching an individual and trying to initiate conversation.

2. How to do the above depends on your situation. If you're in school or whatever, or i suppose in most workplaces, it's usually possible to listen to the conversation your neighbours are having until you've got some idea what they're talking about, and then chip in with something relevant. It may be appropriate to preface this with "i couldn't help overhearing your conversation...", but most times this isn't necessary, as long as they already have some idea who you are, and as long as the topic of conversation is fairly neutral. If these two criteria aren't met, there's a higher chance of it coming across as creepy. There's no need to have anything particularly ground-breaking to say whilst doing this, just nodding and saying "mm-hm" is often enough to establish rapport and make you part of the conversation (and once they consider you part of the conversation they'll often attempt to include you in it further). Or, for example, if Person X has just made a statement of opinion to Person Y, agree with them and give a (short) example of when this was true in your life.

If your life situation means that you're not in any contexts where this sort of thing is possible, it's a bit harder. As said before, people are less amenable to a stranger joining their conversation in these ways, they'll usually tolerate it when it's an acquaintance though. This is where the other suggestions given in this thread (joining a dance class, etc) come in - it establishes a group of acquaintances, who you can then start a conversation with as described.

3. A lot of shy people seem to have trouble with small talk, because they feel they don't have anything interesting to say. However, small talk is just that - small. You don't NEED anything interesting to say, because small talk generally isn't that interesting! People do it to establish rapport, not because the topics are actually interesting to them. It's good to have a standard list of conversation topics in your head, so that if you're stuck for something to say, you can default to one of them. Suitable items include: current news items ("so, what do you think about X..."), the weather (particularly if you're British!), and things relating to the context in which you know this person (school, work, dance class). Generally it's best to open by asking what they think about something, rather than offering your opinion first. If you're meeting them for the first time or don't know much about them, it may also be appropriate to ask them about (for example) their job, their hobbies, their family etc (depending on situation).

4. People love talking about themselves. Ask them questions, and look interested in the answers (even if you're not!). Frequently they will ask the same question back, which is handy. It's also handy to remember that if they've just asked you a question, having answered it the logical next step is to ask the same question back! If you're lucky, you can get them to do most of the work this way - they ask a question, you answer it and ask it back, they answer it and ask a new question, etc. It's also a weird quirk of human nature that people are more likely to remember you as a nice, interesting person if you hardly talk about yourself at all, but appear interested in what they've got to say.

5. Practice. Good interaction and conversation isn't something that some are born with and others aren't. It's ok if you make a tit of yourself, everyone says stupid things sometimes - just laugh it off and move on (or if you've really, hugely screwed it up, go find someone else to talk to instead!). You genuinely can get better at these things, but it won't happen by sitting at home.


Van wrote:On a somewhat related note, I just finished reading through my therapist's 61k draft of my HRT letter, which took almost 2 months longer than I expected. But it's here, and I'm more happy than anything. How screwed up is that? I'm excited and happy because I was essentially just diagnosed with a mental illness. Woo!


What's HRT? The only thing i knew it stood for was Hormone Replacement Therapy... which as far as i know isn't a mental illness! I assume you meant something else...

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby blue_eyedspacemonkey » Thu Apr 30, 2009 4:33 pm UTC

I may be talking out of my ass, but I believe that Van is M to F trans(gender or sexual? not sure which terminology to use). That comes under the DSM IV under gender identity disorder, I think.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby DJorgensen » Thu Apr 30, 2009 7:41 pm UTC

abitha wrote:
Van wrote:On a somewhat related note, I just finished reading through my therapist's 61k draft of my HRT letter, which took almost 2 months longer than I expected. But it's here, and I'm more happy than anything. How screwed up is that? I'm excited and happy because I was essentially just diagnosed with a mental illness. Woo!


What's HRT? The only thing i knew it stood for was Hormone Replacement Therapy... which as far as i know isn't a mental illness! I assume you meant something else...

Hormone replacement therapy is correct. Its a treatment for Gender Identity Disorder.
Gender Identity Disorder replaced the older term of Transsexual - which is a person who identifies their gender as being that of the opposite of their birth sex. Transgender is someone who doesn't identify as their birth sex (which also includes transsexuals).
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby CueBall » Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:48 pm UTC

On the subject of effminency, I had some problems there regarding coming out.

In short, a lot of people didn't believe me, because I don't act gay. It sucked. It's only now that people have met my boyfriend (10 months tomorrow :D) that they believe me. Roughly 2 years later. It does, however, mean people who are uncomfortable around gays/other sexualities are fine around me (normally), because I don't seem like it, and it's not gonna be in the forefront of their mind.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby semicharmed » Fri May 01, 2009 1:44 am UTC

Van wrote:A large part of it is a distinct lack of faith in my ability to add anything to a given conversation. I, er, had no education beyond the 3rd grade, and thus more or less everything I know was learned through osmosis or my love of reading books/Wikipedia. About the only thing I have faith in is my love of wordplay and puns, which is hardly a good building block for conversation. On a related note, you can probably guess my effectiveness at thesis assistance from this as well. Sorry!


Puns are always excellent! Although I don't know how many I could get out of my topic, science-y words are unambiguously science-y. But see, that was interaction... and I like to think I'm not scary.
And I would be totally pysched to be friends with someone who frequently managed to make conversations filled with wordplay... although I work(ed) for my campus newspaper. And some of our editors loved puns. Not wisely, and definitely too well.

Good luck with the book, btw, makeup is one of those things I've always been totally intimidated by.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] LGBTIQQ Thread - Queer Support!

Postby steewi » Fri May 01, 2009 2:56 am UTC

ZLVT wrote:HA! I knew it...admittedly I could have asked but that would be too simple. The pelvic thrusts gave it away I think.

Does anyone else think the Kinsey scale needs to be re-done? Like a 4D model with sexual/emotional attraction to men/women. That's why I didn't reply on the what's your kinsey scale thing. I'd be a 1, maybe a 2, but that doesn't quite describe it...


Oops - I thought you knew that bit anyway. I've been pretty open here on the fora, but then you probably haven't post-stalked me (why would you?). Like I said, though, I keep myself ambiguous offline. It's been wearing thin, but it seems most people are oblivious/don't care, so whatever. I just don't thrust myself (just my hips...) out in the open about it, and am circumspect about it at uni.

I second that you examine the klein grid. It's more complex for people to generally understand, so it hasn't gained the use that the Kinsey scale has, but you won't have any trouble with it.

@Van
Puns are great. I disgust people regularly by overdoing them. In somewhere the size of your location, there is likely a wordaholic or language group somewhere. Improv theatre might be a fun thing to try. You don't have to do it on stage.


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