True villains in fiction?

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Lelouch
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Re: True villains in fiction?

Postby Lelouch » Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:00 am UTC

Sir_Elderberry wrote:
Lelouch wrote:Yahweh/Jehovah/Allah is good despite all the bad stuff he did/does... because Yahweh/Jehovah/Allah said so? A case of the lunatic running the asylum, I think.

A sociopath will often claim not to be evil, too, just above petty morals. Why's it different when it's one of those guys?

I'm not a theist, but if there was a god, the laws of logic/morality are his to dictate to you, so yeah, it is different.

Because that god made us? So if I had a biological child, I'd have the right to do whatever I pleased with/to him/her and be above moral reproach?

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Re: True villains in fiction?

Postby Sir_Elderberry » Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:18 am UTC

No, because he's omnipotent.
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Re: True villains in fiction?

Postby contreras » Sat Jun 06, 2009 5:55 am UTC

from manga:

- Berserk, Griffith is like one of the few really villains in the sense that usually the villians are cool and liked by fans, this guy is a real bastard
- Yu Yu Hakusho, Hiei is consistently a bad guy and a badass during the whole series

and also I agree with Watchmen, the villain there is interesting (the other characters too)

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Re: True villains in fiction?

Postby Swordfish » Sat Jun 06, 2009 7:25 am UTC

What about Gannon from the Legend of Zelda series? I never recall him him as having a real motive for what he does other than being a complete jerk. He's normally portrayed as the embodiment of evil, so I think he'd count as a true villain.
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Re: True villains in fiction?

Postby Blokey » Sat Jun 06, 2009 12:32 pm UTC

I always assumed Gannon got some kind of inferiority kill-kill complex 'cause he was the proverbial redheaded stepchild who was frequently beaten.
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Re: True villains in fiction?

Postby Lelouch » Sat Jun 06, 2009 1:36 pm UTC

Sir_Elderberry wrote:No, because he's omnipotent.

Power simply does not equate to being above judgement. That goes for everyone and everything, from a government that has power over its people to a god that has power over everything.

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Re: True villains in fiction?

Postby Sir_Elderberry » Sat Jun 06, 2009 1:40 pm UTC

Lelouch wrote:
Sir_Elderberry wrote:No, because he's omnipotent.

Power simply does not equate to being above judgement. That goes for everyone and everything, from a government that has power over its people to a god that has power over everything.

When you have power over everything, literally everything, you certainly are above judgment. Think about a government run by an absolute dictator--you can say his actions are morally wrong, but you couldn't sue him for being legally run, because he runs the courts and makes the law. Similarly, an omnipotent god decides what is moral and what isn't, so trying to call him immoral doesn't make sense.
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Re: True villains in fiction?

Postby Yuri2356 » Sat Jun 06, 2009 1:54 pm UTC

Sir_Elderberry wrote:
Lelouch wrote:
Sir_Elderberry wrote:No, because he's omnipotent.

Power simply does not equate to being above judgement. That goes for everyone and everything, from a government that has power over its people to a god that has power over everything.

When you have power over everything, literally everything, you certainly are above judgment. Think about a government run by an absolute dictator--you can say his actions are morally wrong, but you couldn't sue him for being legally run, because he runs the courts and makes the law. Similarly, an omnipotent god decides what is moral and what isn't, so trying to call him immoral doesn't make sense.

Yes it does. He acts in a way contrary to moral system Y, so by that system he is immoral. The only thing the omnipotence does is render us incapable of forcing him to stop.

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Re: True villains in fiction?

Postby Sir_Elderberry » Sat Jun 06, 2009 3:35 pm UTC

By that system, yes. He can declare your system to be wrong and be correct, though. The laws of morality are his to dictate.
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Re: True villains in fiction?

Postby Lelouch » Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:04 pm UTC

Sir_Elderberry wrote:By that system, yes. He can declare your system to be wrong and be correct, though. The laws of morality are his to dictate.

Morals are glorified opinions, and it just so happens nearly all of us hapen to share the same opinions for once: murder is reprehensible, for example. Few people disagree, so few in fact we have a name for people who disagree; sociopath.

Therefore, no matter how powerful something is it simply can not dictate definitively what IS right and IS wrong. It's a matter of opinion, and most people will agree that in the old testament nice old Yahweh did a hell of a lot of nasty shit, including (especially?) to his "favoured" people. You may believe his power placed him above judgement by mortals, but me (a mortal) being here telling you I consider Yahweh one of the most evil beings in fiction puts that theory to rest.

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Re: True villains in fiction?

Postby Sir_Elderberry » Sat Jun 06, 2009 4:07 pm UTC

Lelouch wrote:Therefore, no matter how powerful something is it simply can not dictate definitively what IS right and IS wrong. It's a matter of opinion, and most people will agree that in the old testament nice old Yahweh did a hell of a lot of nasty shit, including (especially?) to his "favoured" people. You may believe his power placed him above judgement by mortals, but me (a mortal) being here telling you I consider Yahweh one of the most evil beings in fiction puts that theory to rest.

I don't believe anything. Personally, I'm pretty sure Yahweh never existed. But you can't tell an omnipotent being "you can't do X!" That's what being omnipotent means.
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Re: True villains in fiction?

Postby Lelouch » Sat Jun 06, 2009 5:36 pm UTC

Sir_Elderberry wrote:
Lelouch wrote:Therefore, no matter how powerful something is it simply can not dictate definitively what IS right and IS wrong. It's a matter of opinion, and most people will agree that in the old testament nice old Yahweh did a hell of a lot of nasty shit, including (especially?) to his "favoured" people. You may believe his power placed him above judgement by mortals, but me (a mortal) being here telling you I consider Yahweh one of the most evil beings in fiction puts that theory to rest.

I don't believe anything. Personally, I'm pretty sure Yahweh never existed. But you can't tell an omnipotent being "you can't do X!" That's what being omnipotent means.

I agree - that's why I'm citing him as a true villain in fiction. However, my point wasn't that he ought to abide by our standards of right and wrong, merely that not doing so makes him evil by our standards.

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Re: True villains in fiction?

Postby Sir_Elderberry » Sat Jun 06, 2009 5:42 pm UTC

Ahhh, alright. Well, judging him with the assumption that he is fictional, yes, I see what you mean. If he were real, he'd be justified. Sorta.
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Re: True villains in fiction?

Postby Yuri2356 » Sat Jun 06, 2009 5:55 pm UTC

Sir_Elderberry wrote:Ahhh, alright. Well, judging him with the assumption that he is fictional, yes, I see what you mean. If he were real, he'd be justified. Sorta.

Well, the thing is an all-powerful being that wanted to be seen as 'good' would either crate a world and always do good things to it (Having the power to always know what is good) or create a world in which it is the definition of good and nothing within that world would disagree (Since that's how it made them). The Abrahamic god, real or fictional, made a world with things that could view it as evil.

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Re: True villains in fiction?

Postby itaibn » Sat Jun 06, 2009 8:14 pm UTC

Can someone give me an example of a good character who didn't become good due to past influences or mental defects like over-abundance of empathy or selflessness. If the original poster claims that these aren't mental defects, I would like to answer in advance: You think the common attributes that makes one evil are mental defects, and not the same for good, yet you think none of the writers you read of can imagine someone being just being evil?
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Re: True villains in fiction?

Postby OBrien » Sun Jun 07, 2009 1:05 pm UTC

Blokey wrote:I always assumed Gannon got some kind of inferiority kill-kill complex 'cause he was the proverbial redheaded stepchild who was frequently beaten.


It all makes sense now! o_O

itaibn wrote:Can someone give me an example of a good character who didn't become good due to past influences or mental defects like over-abundance of empathy or selflessness.


Chrono from Crono Trigger?
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Re: True villains in fiction?

Postby keeneal » Sun Jun 07, 2009 7:22 pm UTC

Sir_Elderberry wrote:
Lelouch wrote:Yahweh/Jehovah/Allah is good despite all the bad stuff he did/does... because Yahweh/Jehovah/Allah said so? A case of the lunatic running the asylum, I think.

A sociopath will often claim not to be evil, too, just above petty morals. Why's it different when it's one of those guys?

I'm not a theist, but if there was a god, the laws of logic/morality are his to dictate to you, so yeah, it is different.

This. God makes the rules, and he is inherently correct in his judgments... I'm not saying you have to accept that as true, I'm saying that if you want to look at God as a character in a text, you need to look at him in the context of the text, just like any other character in any other text. According to the text, God is good and gets to make the rules about what is and isn't moral.
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(Actually, in many traditions, God doesn't have a choice as to what is or is not moral, because he can't change what he already is. In that case, he isn't so much running the asylum as enforcing its rules, which are admittedly dictated by his own conscience. Point is that he couldn't (wouldn't?) change the rules even if he wanted to.)
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Re: True villains in fiction?

Postby Lelouch » Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:08 am UTC

It's already been said... it is quite literally impossible to set an absolute standard on what good is. Therefore, no matter how powerful the being stamping his foot and saying "this is wrong!" is, he's only speaking for himself. God can not be absolutely good because I consider him to be evil.
Last edited by Lelouch on Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:16 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: True villains in fiction?

Postby Sir_Elderberry » Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:16 am UTC

Lelouch wrote:It's already been said..,. it is quite literally impossible to set an absolute standard on what good is.

"But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible." —Matthew 19:26

It doesn't make sense to label things as impossible for that guy.
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Re: True villains in fiction?

Postby Lelouch » Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:16 am UTC

Maybe Yahweh has the power to change the mind of every sentient being on what constitutes goodness. Until he does, though, I'm still here labelling it as impossible for him to claim to be good and be telling the truth.

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Re: True villains in fiction?

Postby keeneal » Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:16 am UTC

Guys, the point isn't whether God being utterly good is true or not. The point is that in the Bible, that is the case. We are looking at God as a character in a literary work. If you don't believe in this particular God, then you need to look at it as fiction - probably as fantasy. When you analyze a character in a work of fiction, you need to look at the character's morality from an in-universe perspective. From that perspective, God is good.

Whether you believe God is good, bad, or ugly is irrelevant. Personally, I think Harry Potter is a dick. That doesn't change that in the universe of the books, he's a hero. See the parallel?
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Re: True villains in fiction?

Postby setzer777 » Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:55 pm UTC

keeneal wrote:Guys, the point isn't whether God being utterly good is true or not. The point is that in the Bible, that is the case. We are looking at God as a character in a literary work. If you don't believe in this particular God, then you need to look at it as fiction - probably as fantasy. When you analyze a character in a work of fiction, you need to look at the character's morality from an in-universe perspective. From that perspective, God is good.

Whether you believe God is good, bad, or ugly is irrelevant. Personally, I think Harry Potter is a dick. That doesn't change that in the universe of the books, he's a hero. See the parallel?


I'm not sure I agree with this. Why can't I read a book by an author whose morality I disagree with, while analyzing their characters based on the morality I hold? It is good to be aware of context, but that doesn't mean you have to restrict yourself to that.

Also, going just by the Bible (not theological definitions) and taking the Bible as a work of fiction, you could argue that it has an unreliable narrator. God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morality-defining...according to himself and his own prophets. Going by his actual actions in the Bible, you can certainly deduce that he has a truly massive amount of power and knowledge, but not necessarily unlimited, and certainly not total authority over morality.
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Re: True villains in fiction?

Postby brume » Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:14 pm UTC

Maybe the god of the bible is more an anti-hero, the guy who has the skills to help the group if he wanted to, but he's so selfish that he only looks out for his own interests. Until...A doe-eyed female (typically) comes along and shows him the error of his ways. Then he casts aside his own selfish goal and agrees to help the group achieve the greater good. Joseph Campbell's Hero's Journey. But the bible seems to be missing the third act...

Watch Pitch Black with this story structure in mind.
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There are two christ stories playing out. One for the captain - "What, I'm supposed to die for them out sheer fucking nobility?" Then later - "Yes, I will die for them"

And another for Riddick where the christ story is used as metaphor for the birth of compassion in a creature that is otherwise animal. At the start: Riddick: "They say most of your brain shuts down in cryo-sleep. All but the primitive side, the animal side. No wonder I'm still awake." And then at the end after he risked his life to save the group: "Jack: Lotta questions, whoever we run into. Could even be a merc ship. So what the hell do we tell them about you? Riddick: Tell them Riddick's dead. He died somewhere back on that planet." IOW, he was 'reborn'.

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Re: True villains in fiction?

Postby Lelouch » Mon Jun 08, 2009 4:29 pm UTC

setzer777 wrote:
keeneal wrote:Guys, the point isn't whether God being utterly good is true or not. The point is that in the Bible, that is the case. We are looking at God as a character in a literary work. If you don't believe in this particular God, then you need to look at it as fiction - probably as fantasy. When you analyze a character in a work of fiction, you need to look at the character's morality from an in-universe perspective. From that perspective, God is good.

Whether you believe God is good, bad, or ugly is irrelevant. Personally, I think Harry Potter is a dick. That doesn't change that in the universe of the books, he's a hero. See the parallel?


I'm not sure I agree with this. Why can't I read a book by an author whose morality I disagree with, while analyzing their characters based on the morality I hold? It is good to be aware of context, but that doesn't mean you have to restrict yourself to that.

Also, going just by the Bible (not theological definitions) and taking the Bible as a work of fiction, you could argue that it has an unreliable narrator. God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morality-defining...according to himself and his own prophets. Going by his actual actions in the Bible, you can certainly deduce that he has a truly massive amount of power and knowledge, but not necessarily unlimited, and certainly not total authority over morality.
This. Besides which, it has already been proven that no god can be omnipotent. Can Yahweh create a cock so big he can't suck it? If yes: he's not omnipotent. If no: he's not omnipotent.

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Re: True villains in fiction?

Postby keeneal » Mon Jun 08, 2009 7:00 pm UTC

Lelouch wrote:
setzer777 wrote:
keeneal wrote:Guys, the point isn't whether God being utterly good is true or not. The point is that in the Bible, that is the case. We are looking at God as a character in a literary work. If you don't believe in this particular God, then you need to look at it as fiction - probably as fantasy. When you analyze a character in a work of fiction, you need to look at the character's morality from an in-universe perspective. From that perspective, God is good.

Whether you believe God is good, bad, or ugly is irrelevant. Personally, I think Harry Potter is a dick. That doesn't change that in the universe of the books, he's a hero. See the parallel?


I'm not sure I agree with this. Why can't I read a book by an author whose morality I disagree with, while analyzing their characters based on the morality I hold? It is good to be aware of context, but that doesn't mean you have to restrict yourself to that.

Also, going just by the Bible (not theological definitions) and taking the Bible as a work of fiction, you could argue that it has an unreliable narrator. God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morality-defining...according to himself and his own prophets. Going by his actual actions in the Bible, you can certainly deduce that he has a truly massive amount of power and knowledge, but not necessarily unlimited, and certainly not total authority over morality.
This. Besides which, it has already been proven that no god can be omnipotent. Can Yahweh create a cock so big he can't suck it? If yes: he's not omnipotent. If no: he's not omnipotent.

This is silly. There's a difference between being able to do all things and being able to create a paradox. CS Lewis has an eloquent take on the argument, but I don't remember where... maybe someone can help me.

You're perfectly welcome to disagree with the morals of a work of fiction, but if you're going to look at a given character's morality, in the context of the story, you need to stay within the story's universe. For example, imagine a world where doing $Immoral_Action wasn't considered immoral, and a character does $Immoral_Action, is this character immoral? I say no. We, as outside observers, disagree with the morals the character and world espouse, but they certainly adhere to a moral code.

When looking at the Bible as fiction, you have to completely disregard any proofs that God doesn't exist, or that you personally disagree with his morals. You have to look at the character in the world in which he is presented, and judge him by that world's moral code. You're free to disagree with that code, but you still have to use it when evaluating a character's morality.

We are discussing God's morality not as a real being, but as a character in a work of fiction. As a character, he is clearly not evil. If you were to drop him into the real world, you could make the argument that he is immoral (or more likely amoral)... but look at the thread title: "True villains in fiction?"; we are clearly dealing with characters from an in-universe perspective. Feel free to start a new thread to discuss God's morality as compared to our universe. I'll happily discuss it there :D
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Re: True villains in fiction?

Postby Lelouch » Mon Jun 08, 2009 7:22 pm UTC

keeneal wrote:You're perfectly welcome to disagree with the morals of a work of fiction, but if you're going to look at a given character's morality, in the context of the story, you need to stay within the story's universe. For example, imagine a world where doing $Immoral_Action wasn't considered immoral, and a character does $Immoral_Action, is this character immoral? I say no. We, as outside observers, disagree with the morals the character and world espouse, but they certainly adhere to a moral code.

It is completely irrelevant that we're discussing a fictional character from outside its universe. I can't state it any more simply: I consider the god of the desert to be a morally reprehensible dick, and that makes it impossible for him to be objectively and absolutely good. That I don't live in the same fantasy world doesn't matter.

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Re: True villains in fiction?

Postby setzer777 » Mon Jun 08, 2009 7:27 pm UTC

keeneal wrote:We are discussing God's morality not as a real being, but as a character in a work of fiction. As a character, he is clearly not evil. If you were to drop him into the real world, you could make the argument that he is immoral (or more likely amoral)... but look at the thread title: "True villains in fiction?"; we are clearly dealing with characters from an in-universe perspective. Feel free to start a new thread to discuss God's morality as compared to our universe. I'll happily discuss it there :D


I disagree that he is clearly not immoral. In the bible we rarely get an omniscient narrator (in the literary sense, I mean), mostly we get narration of people recording events or claiming to relay what God has told them. So the only evidence we get that God defines morality is from *God's own mouth*. Actually, I'm not sure we even get that - I know that in the Bible God claims to be "just" and "merciful", but I'm not sure that should be interpreted as "morality" in the way we mean the word.

There's a difference between an author clearly being a fan of his character's actions, and and author saying: "As author/omniscient narrator, I'm now letting you know what the moral rules of this fictional universe are". In the former case especially I think it's perfectly fair to judge the character's actions for ourselves.

A similar example would be using ancient Greek "heroes" as examples in this thread - the authors at the time didn't consider their actions villainous, but they have several of the traits we now associate with the word "villain". I think things like this are valid for a few reasons:

1. The intention of the author is not absolute. If it was, we'd just have the author tell us the "correct" interpretation of his or her work and then stop analyzing or debating it.

2. What they call "heroic" and we call "villainous" might be referring to the exact same traits, with the only difference being the emotional connotations attached to the word. Therefore calling the character a villain is not contradicting the authors description in any objective way, simply attaching our own subjective judgment to the same description. It seems especially odd to me to insist on authorial intent when it comes to something subjective as morality - if a writer says in narration that a character is "annoying", but I find that character endearing, I don't think that I have to agree that the character is "objectively annoying" to stay in an in-universe discussion. The author described certain traits and then described his or her reaction to those traits; only the traits themselves are canon.

Using the Bible as an example (though I don't want to limit my points to the Bible, it applies to any case of Values Dissonance), the authors never say: "Here is the official moral framework of this universe", rather they present a universe where a powerful being essentially decides to mandate human behavior, and the authors (usually) apply a positive tone when discussing this being's actions. Therefore I'd argue that it is an objective description of behavior (God telling humans how to behave) accompanied by the author's subjective approval of that behavior. The latter we are free to disagree with while still arguing in-universe.
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Re: True villains in fiction?

Postby keeneal » Mon Jun 08, 2009 8:17 pm UTC

setzer777 wrote:I disagree that he is clearly not immoral. In the bible we rarely get an omniscient narrator (in the literary sense, I mean), mostly we get narration of people recording events or claiming to relay what God has told them. So the only evidence we get that God defines morality is from *God's own mouth*. Actually, I'm not sure we even get that - I know that in the Bible God claims to be "just" and "merciful", but I'm not sure that should be interpreted as "morality" in the way we mean the word.

There's a difference between an author clearly being a fan of his character's actions, and and author saying: "As author/omniscient narrator, I'm now letting you know what the moral rules of this fictional universe are". In the former case especially I think it's perfectly fair to judge the character's actions for ourselves.
...
Using the Bible as an example (though I don't want to limit my points to the Bible, it applies to any case of Values Dissonance), the authors never say: "Here is the official moral framework of this universe", rather they present a universe where a powerful being essentially decides to mandate human behavior, and the authors (usually) apply a positive tone when discussing this being's actions. Therefore I'd argue that it is an objective description of behavior (God telling humans how to behave) accompanied by the author's subjective approval of that behavior. The latter we are free to disagree with while still arguing in-universe.
This is the most compelling counter-argument I've heard, as it invokes the mechanics of literature rather than personal opinion. I now recognize that although I was advocating detachment from personal opinion, I was unwittingly holding onto the idea that God/the chroniclers wouldn't be lying or not impartial. Obviously, the narrator vs. truth argument makes sense here, and I somehow overlooked it.

That said, then, the argument turns to whether or not God is an immoral character. Personally, I'm of the opinion that if God made the world, and is all-powerful as is claimed, then he pretty much gets to make up the rules, just as the founders of an organization set the purpose, rules for membership, &c (my opinion, obviously... if you disagree, please elaborate why, as I'm not sure I can wrap my head around the idea). So, does the question become if God breaks his own rules? There's certainly some changes in attitude between the vengeful Old Testament God - "for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God” (Ex. 20:4) - and the New Testament God of compassion, but I'm not sure that qualifies as hypocrisy. Opinions? I know of no out-and-out examples of godly rule-breaking, but then I'm not exactly a Bible scholar... if you do, please point them out.
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setzer777
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Re: True villains in fiction?

Postby setzer777 » Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:06 pm UTC

keeneal wrote:That said, then, the argument turns to whether or not God is an immoral character. Personally, I'm of the opinion that if God made the world, and is all-powerful as is claimed, then he pretty much gets to make up the rules, just as the founders of an organization set the purpose, rules for membership, &c (my opinion, obviously... if you disagree, please elaborate why, as I'm not sure I can wrap my head around the idea). So, does the question become if God breaks his own rules? There's certainly some changes in attitude between the vengeful Old Testament God - "for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God” (Ex. 20:4) - and the New Testament God of compassion, but I'm not sure that qualifies as hypocrisy. Opinions? I know of no out-and-out examples of godly rule-breaking, but then I'm not exactly a Bible scholar... if you do, please point them out.



Well, my main point was the literary one. Debating the question of whether creating the universe = entitled to dictate morality would probably take this well outside the scope of this thread (and into thread-lock territory). But essentially, some people have a more subjective, sentience-centered view of what morality is.

As presented in the Bible, I'd say it's a stretch to call God a villain. However, I thing you could plausibly write a story from another point of view that portrayed God as the villain while remaining consistent with his depiction in the Bible. For example, a narrative from the point of view of people in Canaan as the people of Israel are invading. From their point of view, a foreign God that they have never heard of is helping a foreign people take their land. It might even be a good example of the type of "true villain" the OP is looking for - in this story God is not acting out of some past trauma, or personal defect; he simply has an overriding desire to elevate his "chosen people", and places this desire above the lives of the current inhabitants of Canaan.
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keeneal
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Re: True villains in fiction?

Postby keeneal » Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:41 pm UTC

setzer777 wrote:Well, my main point was the literary one. Debating the question of whether creating the universe = entitled to dictate morality would probably take this well outside the scope of this thread (and into thread-lock territory).
You, my friend, are full of good points today.
setzer777 wrote: As presented in the Bible, I'd say it's a stretch to call God a villain. However, I thing you could plausibly write a story from another point of view that portrayed God as the villain while remaining consistent with his depiction in the Bible. For example, a narrative from the point of view of people in Canaan as the people of Israel are invading. From their point of view, a foreign God that they have never heard of is helping a foreign people take their land. It might even be a good example of the type of "true villain" the OP is looking for - in this story God is not acting out of some past trauma, or personal defect; he simply has an overriding desire to elevate his "chosen people", and places this desire above the lives of the current inhabitants of Canaan.
I feel like if you were to maintain the inherent "truth" assigned to the Israelite God in the Bible and do what you're suggesting, the people in Canaan would need to take on the role of the anti-hero. Yes, God would certainly appear as a ruthless invader to a Canaanite (that's what Moses was, at any rate), but if you accept the idea that creatorship yields a right to dictatorship (which I believe is a biblical position, although I suppose it could be institutional instead), he wouldn't work as a villain. Antagonist, yes, but not a villain.
Now, if it turns out that the bit about "God getting make rules because he has a legitimate claim to that right" is not substantiated biblically (in such a way that it isn't merely narrative bias...although I don't know how that could be established), then I agree that your story would certainly fulfill the OP's specifications.

Does anyone know of such as story? Because without one, we still need to search :P
I prepared Explosive Runes this morning.Alex Keene


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