"I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Things that don't belong anywhere else. (Check first).

Moderators: Moderators General, Prelates, Magistrates

User avatar
setzer777
Good questions sometimes get stupid answers
Posts: 2762
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:24 am UTC

"I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby setzer777 » Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:56 pm UTC

RANT ALERT

One thing that drives me crazy is people who say that they don't judge something, and then make a statement that clearly implies a negative judgment. Examples:

"I don't judge people who have sex before marriage, but I want our relationship to be pure and based on love rather than being all about lust and sex"

"I don't judge people who believe in God, but I like using my brain and not blindly following things"

"I'm not judging her for it, but if I dressed that way/had that many partners/etc. *I'd* feel like a cheap whore"


Why?! Do people really think that as long as you aren't saying: "I hereby judge you as morally inferior for your action" that nothing you say constitutes a negative judgment? I mean, I'm a vegetarian for moral reasons, but I don't go around saying: "I don't judge you for eating pork, but I like not being complicit in horrific animal cruelty", because that's *obviously* a judgment.

Do these types of statements bother anyone else? Am I missing some way in which they are justified?
Meaux_Pas wrote:We're here to go above and beyond.

Too infinity
of being an arsehole

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby Belial » Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:04 pm UTC

setzer777 wrote:"I'm not judging her for it, but if I dressed that way/had that many partners/etc. *I'd* feel like a cheap whore"


If you give this one the benefit of the doubt, it actually makes sense: "I'm not judging her, but if I did what she did, *I* would feel judged (by society)(to be a cheap whore)(which society judges as bad)." Which means that it's perfectly possible for there to be no judgement on the speaker's part.

That said, it could just as easily be used to mean exactly what you're implying it means.

And the first two are indefensible.
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

User avatar
lulzfish
Posts: 1214
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:17 am UTC

Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby lulzfish » Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:09 pm UTC

Maybe it's not a judgement, but they're pointing out something and then stating an avoidance of the subject all in one statement.

"I don't think about X, but, hey look, there's X!"
It's VERY annoying.
How do you respond? "Okay, I'm glad you're not judging X?" or "Well technically you shouldn't have said anything...."
And then it's all downhill from there.

User avatar
Mighty Jalapeno
Inne Juste 7 Dayes I Wille Make You A Hero!
Posts: 11265
Joined: Mon May 07, 2007 9:16 pm UTC
Location: Prince George In A Can
Contact:

Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:13 pm UTC

"I like gays. My accountant is a gay lady! She's awesome. I just don't think they should be allowed to get married."

Had a guy on the Ellis show yesterday, and this was basically his stance. Is that similar? "Gays rock! They just shouldn't be allowed to do certain things."

GoodRudeFun
Posts: 453
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:42 am UTC
Location: The desert... is HELL
Contact:

Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby GoodRudeFun » Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:18 pm UTC

Perhaps its not that they want to judge. You know judging on such things is wrong, and yet you do it anyways.... we all do. We can try our hardest not to, but in the end we're programed to judge by at least one or two criteria that are actually completely useless for judging.


So yeah, it's annoying when they say they don't judge, because they clearly do. If it were up to me, it'd be said as "I try not to judge" instead of "I don't judge", because at least then you're being honest.
Oh. Well that's alright then.

User avatar
sophyturtle
I'll go put my shirt back on for this kind of shock. No I won't. I'll get my purse.
Posts: 3474
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:19 pm UTC
Location: it's turtles all the way down, even in the suburbs
Contact:

Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby sophyturtle » Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:24 pm UTC

My least favorite:
1) I do/say something
2) person says to me "now, I'm not judging you for that, but..."

Then I kick them out of my house. Or in the shins. Whatever comes first.

I think doing this not around the judged group makes it a little less mean, but not much.
I want to get to a place where I am neither conforming nor rebelling but simply being.

User avatar
EnderSword
Posts: 1060
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:11 pm UTC

Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby EnderSword » Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:50 pm UTC

Mighty Jalapeno wrote:"I like gays. My accountant is a gay lady! She's awesome. I just don't think they should be allowed to get married."

Had a guy on the Ellis show yesterday, and this was basically his stance. Is that similar? "Gays rock! They just shouldn't be allowed to do certain things."


Well, no, I don't think this is similar.

I tend to agree with the OP here, and I also don't think its a very bad thing to judge people in the first place.
If you think someone's an idiot for believing in Scientology, go ahead and just judge them, it's what you think anyway.

'Don't Judge' is more something that should apply when you don't have enough information....like I can't Judge whether or not 'Kate' is a good mother because I don't know, i'd just be going on little bits of info and trying to draw a full picture.

But I should be able to judge someone for something that is clear and full, like if your friend believes crystals are magic and says so and walks around talking about them, and you want to label that 'dumb' go ahead.

So I think it should be a matter of reserving judgement until you have fuller information.
WWSD?*
*what would Sheldon do?

User avatar
abitha
Posts: 278
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:05 pm UTC
Location: UK

Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby abitha » Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:05 pm UTC

I think different people mean different things by 'judge' - it's a bit of an ambiguous word. What people generally seem to mean when they say "I don't judge people who do X" is "I disapprove of action X, but that doesn't mean I disapprove of people who do X as people, I just disapprove of the fact that they do X".

It depends on the context though - the examples you gave do imply a bit more judgment on the people themselves.

And I agree, it's a really irritating and patronising way of saying it, whatever someone means by it!

User avatar
Virtual_Aardvark
Posts: 882
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:27 pm UTC
Location: The Final Frontier
Contact:

Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby Virtual_Aardvark » Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:41 pm UTC

It's kind of like how anything precede by "no offense but..." is bound to be offensive.
"imaginary gardens with real toads in them"
Mighty Jalapeno wrote:An actual cloud... full of lesbians.

User avatar
Crius
Posts: 392
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 7:27 pm UTC

Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby Crius » Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:38 pm UTC

I wouldn't say that just because you make decision X about your life, that you automatically will pass negative judgement on people who don't make the same decision.

For example, if you rephrase the second statement to

"I don't judge people who believe in God, but I'm an atheist."

I could believe you. Of course, all your examples are people saying "I don't judge X" then passing judgement on X.

User avatar
podbaydoor
Posts: 7548
Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2007 4:16 am UTC
Location: spaceship somewhere out there

Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby podbaydoor » Fri Jun 19, 2009 7:58 pm UTC

It's possible to express tolerance of something without giving your approval of it...but you're right, all those examples in the OP are only superficially doing so and wind up being quite hypocritical as a result.
tenet |ˈtenit|
noun
a principle or belief, esp. one of the main principles of a religion or philosophy : the tenets of classical liberalism.
tenant |ˈtenənt|
noun
a person who occupies land or property rented from a landlord.

User avatar
Eastwinn
Posts: 303
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:36 am UTC
Location: Maryland

Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby Eastwinn » Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:00 pm UTC

"I'm not a racist/homophobe/sexist/whatever but..."

And that's where I stop listening. Honestly, I find it hard to say that you shouldn't ever make generalizations. Our brains work by association and in order for that to be effective we need to generalize quite bit. In essence we've all evolved into judgmental, generalizing assholes. Putting forth a conscious effort to ignore your unconscious generalizations is incredibly respectful and it's something I always strive to do when I consider the amount of times I've found that the root of many of problems I've shared with others involved careless generalizations. Not to mention the amount of times I've been persecuted (not literally) on a stereotype.
http://aselliedraws.tumblr.com/ - surreal sketches and characters.

User avatar
ShinSeifer
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:32 am UTC
Location: Naples, Italy
Contact:

Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby ShinSeifer » Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:18 pm UTC

I like abitha's interpretation, actually.
It's useless to think of ourselves (or of any person who could have said something like that in good faith) as hypocrites, because, let's face it, every single choice of ours implies a rejection of OTHER choices.

If I say "I'm an atheist" this implies that I don't believe in God, therefore I judge one who believes in God as wrong in his belief.
If I am a vegetarian for moral reason, I judge one who, given the alternative, eats meat as immoral!
What we CAN and MUST do, however, is to be tolerant and open-minded. Whan can and must be avoided is to make wrong associations like "I'm an atheist therefore I judge theists to be stupid and evil people". And be ready to change our minds about everything.
And yes, avoid to generalize as much as we can.
I'm here to give you these ->

User avatar
EnderSword
Posts: 1060
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:11 pm UTC

Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby EnderSword » Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:44 pm UTC

Eastwinn wrote:"I'm not a racist/homophobe/sexist/whatever but..."

And that's where I stop listening.


I'd suggest you listen a little further than that atleast before making a snap decision.

"I'm not sexist, but I think our education system should try to encourage women to ask for fair salaries when seeking employment because many get taken advantage of as a result not asking."

"I'm not homophobic, but I think if gays are looking for wider acceptance they should be more concious of the image their parades present to the public."

"I'm not racist, but I find that people who identify with a black or latino candidate just due to his or her race matching their own is a bit disturbing."

Often times people put that warning up because no matter what you say about these issues is hit with a derogatory term or racist/sexist/homophobic....homophobic being the dumbest since it implies 'fear' of the group as opposed to discrimination.

People landmine those topics to the point that you have to put up shields before you can talk about them.



I was also about to write just what ShinSeifer did...a moral Vegetarian doesn't have to say anything, they've made a moral judgement already about the behaviour.

There's a difference between that and actual preferrences, like 'I don't like Coldplay' it doesn't mean I think people who do are wrong.
WWSD?*
*what would Sheldon do?

User avatar
Rinsaikeru
Pawn, soon to be a Queen
Posts: 2166
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:26 am UTC
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby Rinsaikeru » Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:58 pm UTC

EnderSword wrote:
Eastwinn wrote:"I'm not a racist/homophobe/sexist/whatever but..."

And that's where I stop listening.


I'd suggest you listen a little further than that atleast before making a snap decision.

"I'm not sexist, but I think our education system should try to encourage women to ask for fair salaries when seeking employment because many get taken advantage of as a result not asking."

"I'm not homophobic, but I think if gays are looking for wider acceptance they should be more concious of the image their parades present to the public."

"I'm not racist, but I find that people who identify with a black or latino candidate just due to his or her race matching their own is a bit disturbing."

Often times people put that warning up because no matter what you say about these issues is hit with a derogatory term or racist/sexist/homophobic....homophobic being the dumbest since it implies 'fear' of the group as opposed to discrimination.

People landmine those topics to the point that you have to put up shields before you can talk about them.



I was also about to write just what ShinSeifer did...a moral Vegetarian doesn't have to say anything, they've made a moral judgement already about the behaviour.

There's a difference between that and actual preferrences, like 'I don't like Coldplay' it doesn't mean I think people who do are wrong.


I don't see how the comments aren't racist, homophobic and sexist at root even in the cases you mention.

In the first example--perhaps you fail to realize it, but women don't get paid less simply because they don't ask to be paid more. There is an entire culture which underpines the fact that women on average get paid less than a male counterpart in a similar position.

Gay pride parades are FOR the LGBT community, they aren't for you and it doesn't really matter if it causes you to believe in stereotypes. Having a time and space in which you feel safe and able to express yourself--even if it's just a weekend is a fantastic thing that should be encouraged.

What proof aside from hearsay is there that this actually occurs? And really--isn't that how white people have voted for centuries?
Rice Puddin.

Mo0man
Posts: 1258
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:46 am UTC
Location: 2 weeks ago

Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby Mo0man » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:07 pm UTC

Also,
"I'm not racist, but I find that people who identify with a black or latino candidate just due to his or her race matching their own is a bit disturbing."

Cause it assumes that white people don't do that
causa major dormuc vulnero ut ovis goatee
I'm number 20075. Remember that. It's important

User avatar
bombast
Posts: 74
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:07 am UTC

Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby bombast » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:16 pm UTC

I say things like that because I hold myself up to a higher moral standard then those around me. I don't expect others to meet my expectation, but I expect myself to.

Its not hypocritical or smug when used in this context.

User avatar
setzer777
Good questions sometimes get stupid answers
Posts: 2762
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:24 am UTC

Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby setzer777 » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:18 pm UTC

Yeah, I'm not saying that judging something is bad, just that if someone is judging an action, adding the phrase "I'm not judging this, but...." is pointless and in no way makes someone seem more diplomatic or tolerant. I think it's better to just state your position without apology and then actually *be* tolerant and respectful (depending on context) when the other person states theirs.

For example, I just say (if it comes up): "I'm not religious" or "I'm a vegetarian for animal rights reasons". If somebody responds by talking about why they believe in God or why they think eating meat is justified I will listen respectfully and either respond or let the subject drop depending on whether their tone indicates they want to discuss the issue or not.


bombast wrote:I say things like that because I hold myself up to a higher moral standard then those around me. I don't expect others to meet my expectation, but I expect myself to.

Its not hypocritical or smug when used in this context.


Well, I'd say that it isn't as smug. You're still establishing that you consider your moral standard "higher" in some sense than others. Unless you consider the standard you hold yourself to more of personal preference than a morality issue, but in that case people don't usually feel the need to use the "I don't judge..." preface, they just say something like: "I'm not really into that/That's not my thing".
Meaux_Pas wrote:We're here to go above and beyond.

Too infinity
of being an arsehole

User avatar
bombast
Posts: 74
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:07 am UTC

Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby bombast » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:25 pm UTC

setzer777 wrote:
bombast wrote:I say things like that because I hold myself up to a higher moral standard then those around me. I don't expect others to meet my expectation, but I expect myself to.

Its not hypocritical or smug when used in this context.


Well, I'd say that it isn't as smug. You're still establishing that you consider your moral standard "higher" in some sense than others. Unless you consider the standard you hold yourself to more of personal preference than a morality issue, but in that case people don't usually feel the need to use the "I don't judge..." preface, they just say something like: "I'm not really into that/That's not my thing".


Yeah, that came out of me wrong. Lets try this... I have a different moral standard. For example... I don't sleep around. Its one or nothing to me. My best friend (he's in Iraq... talking to him now) sleeps (used to, has gf now) with EVERYONE. Now, I'd die for this man, but I find what he does to not be inline with what I expect of myself. Still, its his life, and he's not really doing anything wrong, just things I wouldn't do.

Is that a better explaination?

User avatar
Dibley
Posts: 1346
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2007 8:00 pm UTC
Location: Napa Valley, California
Contact:

Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby Dibley » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:35 pm UTC

Depends. Do you feel that they shouldn't do that, but it's not a big enough deal for you to make trouble over it? 'cause that's annoying.

User avatar
setzer777
Good questions sometimes get stupid answers
Posts: 2762
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2008 9:24 am UTC

Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby setzer777 » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:37 pm UTC

bombast wrote:
setzer777 wrote:
bombast wrote:I say things like that because I hold myself up to a higher moral standard then those around me. I don't expect others to meet my expectation, but I expect myself to.

Its not hypocritical or smug when used in this context.


Well, I'd say that it isn't as smug. You're still establishing that you consider your moral standard "higher" in some sense than others. Unless you consider the standard you hold yourself to more of personal preference than a morality issue, but in that case people don't usually feel the need to use the "I don't judge..." preface, they just say something like: "I'm not really into that/That's not my thing".


Yeah, that came out of me wrong. Lets try this... I have a different moral standard. For example... I don't sleep around. Its one or nothing to me. My best friend (he's in Iraq... talking to him now) sleeps (used to, has gf now) with EVERYONE. Now, I'd die for this man, but I find what he does to not be inline with what I expect of myself. Still, its his life, and he's not really doing anything wrong, just things I wouldn't do.

Is that a better explaination?



I guess the question I'd have is - what (to you) makes it a moral standard as opposed to a personal preference (like whether you like chocolate, or play video games)? I mean, anyone who plays sports does things that I wouldn't do, but I wouldn't say: "I don't judge people playing sports, but doing so is not inline with what I expect of myself", I'd just say that I don't play sports, it doesn't appeal to me, etc.
Meaux_Pas wrote:We're here to go above and beyond.

Too infinity
of being an arsehole

User avatar
Lord Aurora
Posts: 566
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:14 am UTC

Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby Lord Aurora » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:43 pm UTC

I don't judge people who judge people who say they don't judge people, but I certainly wouldn't make a thread about it in General. It's just not in line with my moral compass.

I also don't judge people who are meta-non-judgmental. But that's more like something I'd do.
Decker wrote:Children! Children! There's no need to fight. You're ALL stupid.

User avatar
bombast
Posts: 74
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:07 am UTC

Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby bombast » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:48 pm UTC

Dibley wrote:Depends. Do you feel that they shouldn't do that, but it's not a big enough deal for you to make trouble over it? 'cause that's annoying.


No, i don't think they shouldn't, merely that I wouldn't, because that was how I was raised. I understand how people could be raised differently.

I have two sets of morals... ones that are wrong (murder, etc), and ones I find... tasteless (being a man whore). But thats okay... some of the best people I've known were tasteless, yet great people. They just do things I wouldn't want to do myself.

I guess its easier to compare it to extreme sports... I think people are crazy for doing it, but it dosn't mean their any more or less of anything then I am.

User avatar
Eastwinn
Posts: 303
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:36 am UTC
Location: Maryland

Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby Eastwinn » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:48 pm UTC

EnderSword wrote:
Eastwinn wrote:"I'm not a racist/homophobe/sexist/whatever but..."

And that's where I stop listening.


I'd suggest you listen a little further than that atleast before making a snap decision.


I was actually saying that in jest. It's ironic that I would make such generalizations right before I start talking about how bad they are. I didn't make it obvious enough. :D
http://aselliedraws.tumblr.com/ - surreal sketches and characters.

User avatar
EnderSword
Posts: 1060
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:11 pm UTC

Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby EnderSword » Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:51 pm UTC


I don't see how the comments aren't racist, homophobic and sexist at root even in the cases you mention.

In the first example--perhaps you fail to realize it, but women don't get paid less simply because they don't ask to be paid more. There is an entire culture which underpines the fact that women on average get paid less than a male counterpart in a similar position.

Gay pride parades are FOR the LGBT community, they aren't for you and it doesn't really matter if it causes you to believe in stereotypes. Having a time and space in which you feel safe and able to express yourself--even if it's just a weekend is a fantastic thing that should be encouraged.

What proof aside from hearsay is there that this actually occurs? And really--isn't that how white people have voted for centuries?


So in other words...No matter what you say about race, gender or sexuality at all is racist, sexist and Homophobic...as per my comment...

Endersword wrote:
People landmine those topics to the point that you have to put up shields before you can talk about them.


This is why people always preface it with "I'm not sexist but..."

Because your first instinct is to say Oh me yarm YES U R!
Someone makes a comment that educating women on salary negotiations might help improve their salaries....and you think that's sexist? Did the comment say it would fix the entire problem? That women were inferior in any way? No, not at all...but your first instinct is to say its sexist, then provide a reason why that in no way indicates it is.

The Parade thing, I tore out of an article from Roots magazine where the author compared gay rights to the civil rights movement. It's not homophobic in anyway because it doesn't even remotely approach making any judgement or opinion on gay rights itself, only questions the PR effects of the event. Saying 'The event is for them' is a valid defense of the event, but In no way does it make the questioning of it strategically a homophobic statement.

The Blacks voting for blacks thing, also torn from Roots magazine...is it still racist now you know the author was black? Or only if a white guy said it?
And if white guys did the same before, does that make it untrue? Again, in no way is the comment actually racist in any way, it merely mentions race.
WWSD?*
*what would Sheldon do?

User avatar
Rinsaikeru
Pawn, soon to be a Queen
Posts: 2166
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:26 am UTC
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby Rinsaikeru » Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:02 pm UTC

If you preface what you say by "I'm not sexist" what follows seems like something to 'cure' sexism. Women negotiating for better pay isn't one of the larger underlying causes for the wage gap--it's a pretty minute factor.

It doesn't matter whether the person who wrote the magazine is black, brown, white, or any other colour on the spectrum. The comment takes on an undertone of judgment when you say "I'm not judging you but the problem with you is this." The sentence lends itself to judging others. We've had centuries of white politicians elected not solely (but at least partially) due to skin colour and religion.

There are plenty of arguments for and against pride parades--but those really opposed to it (that I've witnessed on this forum and in my day to day life) eventually come down to: "they shouldn't parade and be flamboyant" with either of the following endings: "Because it just encourages the stereotype" or "Because other people don't want to see that." I see both alternatives as pretty hateful.
Rice Puddin.

Mo0man
Posts: 1258
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:46 am UTC
Location: 2 weeks ago

Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby Mo0man » Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:09 pm UTC

You know what I hate? St Patrick's Day. It's just perpetuates the stereotype that Irish people drink too much
You know what I hate? Chinese New Year. It just perpetuates the stereotype that Chinese people are in love with firecrackers
You know what I hate? People who say ignorant shit that has nothing to do with them, cause they think it perpetuates the stereotype, even though the celebration in question is about fun, not about rubbing shit in people's faces
causa major dormuc vulnero ut ovis goatee
I'm number 20075. Remember that. It's important

User avatar
EnderSword
Posts: 1060
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:11 pm UTC

Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby EnderSword » Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:13 pm UTC

Well, in that particular case, it is a large factor in the wage gap.

I wouldn't for a moment think any of those comments were taken with the idea of 'But this will cure sexism' how'd you get there?

The atcile on the parade thing was comparing and contrasting how black dressed in protest parades.
But how would 'It encourages the stereotype' be hateful? I know many gays who vehemently oppose the parades because they believe it prepetuates the stereotypes.
WWSD?*
*what would Sheldon do?

User avatar
Rinsaikeru
Pawn, soon to be a Queen
Posts: 2166
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:26 am UTC
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby Rinsaikeru » Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:18 pm UTC

And of course the few gay people you've spoken to must represent the whole LGBT community? I suppose also that there isn't any internalized oppression going on either?

It isn't that the statement will cure racism, sexism, homophobia etc--it's that the 'well meaning' person saying these things obviously thinks that "these communities are too stupid to have thought of this on their own and that it would all be better if you'd just listen and do things the way I think they should be done." That's the tone I get out of the statements.
Rice Puddin.

GoodRudeFun
Posts: 453
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:42 am UTC
Location: The desert... is HELL
Contact:

Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby GoodRudeFun » Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:33 pm UTC

ShinSeifer wrote:I like abitha's interpretation, actually.
It's useless to think of ourselves (or of any person who could have said something like that in good faith) as hypocrites, because, let's face it, every single choice of ours implies a rejection of OTHER choices.

If I say "I'm an atheist" this implies that I don't believe in God, therefore I judge one who believes in God as wrong in his belief.
If I am a vegetarian for moral reason, I judge one who, given the alternative, eats meat as immoral!
What we CAN and MUST do, however, is to be tolerant and open-minded. Whan can and must be avoided is to make wrong associations like "I'm an atheist therefore I judge theists to be stupid and evil people". And be ready to change our minds about everything.
And yes, avoid to generalize as much as we can.

The thing to do, I think is recognize that you aren't everyone else. So instead of generalizing other groups as wrong, one thinks "this is the way for me, but perhaps not for them, and that's ok."


Thats how I see it as an atheist (a term I find severely limiting), I feel that not believing works best for me, but I don't specifically see the other peoples beliefs as wrong, just wrong for me. This doesn't mean I don't judge, everyone does, but I try not. Not only try, but I have a rather easy time of it. I have a hard time judging others, so its not a big problem.
Oh. Well that's alright then.

User avatar
ShinSeifer
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:32 am UTC
Location: Naples, Italy
Contact:

Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby ShinSeifer » Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:09 pm UTC

GoodRudeFun wrote:
ShinSeifer wrote:I like abitha's interpretation, actually.
It's useless to think of ourselves (or of any person who could have said something like that in good faith) as hypocrites, because, let's face it, every single choice of ours implies a rejection of OTHER choices.

If I say "I'm an atheist" this implies that I don't believe in God, therefore I judge one who believes in God as wrong in his belief.
If I am a vegetarian for moral reason, I judge one who, given the alternative, eats meat as immoral!
What we CAN and MUST do, however, is to be tolerant and open-minded. Whan can and must be avoided is to make wrong associations like "I'm an atheist therefore I judge theists to be stupid and evil people". And be ready to change our minds about everything.
And yes, avoid to generalize as much as we can.

The thing to do, I think is recognize that you aren't everyone else. So instead of generalizing other groups as wrong, one thinks "this is the way for me, but perhaps not for them, and that's ok."


Thats how I see it as an atheist (a term I find severely limiting), I feel that not believing works best for me, but I don't specifically see the other peoples beliefs as wrong, just wrong for me. This doesn't mean I don't judge, everyone does, but I try not. Not only try, but I have a rather easy time of it. I have a hard time judging others, so its not a big problem.


I actually agree with you! Maybe the problem lies simply in the definition of "judging" other people (and the definition of "wrong", for that matter). I'm actually agnostic, not atheist, and what I do is indeed the way I am, a choice of mine, I can have my reasons, others may have theirs; it's not that I think every person who is not agnostic must be because they are crearly on the wrong path!
I recognize that other people are different from me: what I said was that the mere fact we made some choices (e.g. being atheist or agnostic) means that we judged other choices (e.g. being theist), wrong for us. Yet we must be open-minded and try not to judge other people who may have made different choices from us as absolutely wrong as people
I'm here to give you these ->

User avatar
Chfan
Posts: 2141
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:26 pm UTC
Location: American East Coast

Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby Chfan » Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:14 pm UTC

Well, I think "judging": has more to do with thinking it tells something about the person rather than simply that you think they're wrong. Everyone is wrong about something- it tells you nothing about them that they are. It's what they're wrong about that leads to judging, and the case usually differens when it comes to belief in God (different reasons and whatnot).
Just FYI, the guy isn't avatar isn't me. But he seems pretty cool.

User avatar
Izawwlgood
WINNING
Posts: 18686
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:55 pm UTC
Location: There may be lovelier lovelies...

Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:44 pm UTC

I find it interesting that people in general believe they have a right to live a life not judged by others. Obviously you have a right to not be discriminated against, but people will form opinions, and nothing protects you as an individual to have those opinions erased. It's your right as an individual to not hear those opinions, but that's about as far as it goes.
... with gigantic melancholies and gigantic mirth, to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandalled feet.

User avatar
Belial
A terrible sound heard from a distance
Posts: 30450
Joined: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:04 am UTC
Contact:

Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby Belial » Sat Jun 20, 2009 12:11 am UTC

Rinsaikeru wrote:And of course the few gay people you've spoken to must represent the whole LGBT community? I suppose also that there isn't any internalized oppression going on either?

It isn't that the statement will cure racism, sexism, homophobia etc--it's that the 'well meaning' person saying these things obviously thinks that "these communities are too stupid to have thought of this on their own and that it would all be better if you'd just listen and do things the way I think they should be done." That's the tone I get out of the statements.


Or they're just concern trolling.
addams wrote:A drunk neighbor is better than a sober Belial.


They/them

User avatar
mrbaggins
Posts: 1611
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 3:23 am UTC
Location: Wagga, Australia

Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby mrbaggins » Sat Jun 20, 2009 1:08 am UTC

It's very similar to "No offense, but..."

Students at work come up "No offense sir, but you're being being fucking retarded. I didn't do shit to Billy."

If you're calling me 'fucking retarded' you're trying to be offensive.
Why is it that 4chan is either infinitely awesome, infinitely bad, or "lolwut", but never any intermediary level?

itaibn
Posts: 142
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:06 pm UTC

Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby itaibn » Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:08 am UTC

About those maybe sexist/homophobic/racist statements, even if a statement shows extreme ignorance, it isn't necessarily sexist/homophobic/racist.
I NEVER use all-caps.

Voco
Posts: 285
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:29 pm UTC
Location: A land of blind idealism.

Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby Voco » Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:24 am UTC

I'd say it depends heavily on what follows the statement. You could (assuming you were a a wealth-bigot) say "I'm not racist, but I do absolutely despise poor people. Since the racism of others has created an income correlation with race, my hatred might appear to be based on race to the casual observer. Nevertheless, you will find that my evil actions, while probably exacerbating the race/income problem, aren't racist in themselves."

--and you'd be telling the truth. Obviously, while this too is a reprehensible stance to most (myself included), an individual who really was income-ist but not racist might feel compelled to make just such a clarification. The problem comes when people preface genuinely racist sentiments with the phrase, as if it negates their bigotry. To say "I'm not racist, but I've found I'm more sexually attracted to pale-skinned members of the opposite sex" is silly. Now, I'd argue that everyone's sexual preferences are no business but their own, and that this type of racism is therefore acceptable, but it is still racism, no matter what you say beforehand.

User avatar
EnderSword
Posts: 1060
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2009 8:11 pm UTC

Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby EnderSword » Sat Jun 20, 2009 3:55 am UTC

Rinsaikeru wrote:And of course the few gay people you've spoken to must represent the whole LGBT community? I suppose also that there isn't any internalized oppression going on either?

It isn't that the statement will cure racism, sexism, homophobia etc--it's that the 'well meaning' person saying these things obviously thinks that "these communities are too stupid to have thought of this on their own and that it would all be better if you'd just listen and do things the way I think they should be done." That's the tone I get out of the statements.


Wouldn't that be true of everything? If I suggest my marketing department runs more TV ads and less print ads, am I saying 'You Fucking retards are too stupid to know what's the best advertising method'?
If I suggest going to Ben & Jerry's for ice cream is it an innate judgement the the Baskin Robbins people are deplorable?

You reading that tone into those statements is borderline insane.

This is why I say EVERY statement about sex, race, and orientation will always be called sexist, racist, or homophobic by someone who wants to call it that.
WWSD?*
*what would Sheldon do?

eekmeep
Posts: 169
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:56 am UTC

Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby eekmeep » Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:03 am UTC

This is an interesting thread.

I agree with whoever said that judging isn't inherently bad -- some judging is, some isn't.

I also agree with whoever said if you say "I'm not ______ but, _____" is crap; USUALLY anything following "but" or "however" invalidates whatever preceded it.

I further agree with the variety of comments regarding the idea that it's crap when someone says they AREN'T judging a group, they just want to limit their rights. Go ahead and judge ~ but don't limit rights.

I am a conservative, heterosexual, Catholic. I don't think gay people are "bad." I don't think gays being given equal rights is bad. I think conservative, heterosexual, Catholics who say otherwise are intolerant jackasses. They seem to think they are interpreting/implementing God's word. It doesn't matter if God likes gay people or not (I personally believe He likes them as much as He likes heteros -- in other words, it probably varies) ... there is still no reason to limit rights. Same as with any ethnic minority in the past, when we used to have laws to keep them "in their natural place" or whatever crap the majority spewed.

User avatar
Rinsaikeru
Pawn, soon to be a Queen
Posts: 2166
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 5:26 am UTC
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Re: "I don't judge people who do X".......yes, you do.

Postby Rinsaikeru » Sat Jun 20, 2009 4:28 am UTC

EnderSword wrote:
Wouldn't that be true of everything? If I suggest my marketing department runs more TV ads and less print ads, am I saying 'You Fucking retards are too stupid to know what's the best advertising method'?
If I suggest going to Ben & Jerry's for ice cream is it an innate judgement the the Baskin Robbins people are deplorable?

You reading that tone into those statements is borderline insane.

This is why I say EVERY statement about sex, race, and orientation will always be called sexist, racist, or homophobic by someone who wants to call it that.


I draw a distinction here between:

Things people do--ie. their work, art, cooking

and

Things that people are--male, female, trans, gay, straight, brown, white etc.

When you make judgements about people based on their colour, religion, gender, or sexuality; it's not comparable to making judgements about what colour tie they chose or typos in their essay. Judgement isn't the problem in and of itself. Back in reference to OP--

The trouble is people claiming not to judge who are really making the harshest/falsest judgements of all.
Rice Puddin.


Return to “General”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 24 guests