Do you lean conservative or liberal?

Things that don't belong anywhere else. (Check first).

Moderators: Moderators General, Prelates, Magistrates

Politically, do you lean conservative or liberal? (Not the crazy kinds)

Conservative
10
9%
Liberal
84
76%
I really really don't like either one
17
15%
 
Total votes: 111

Scarblac
Posts: 43
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 11:39 am UTC

Re: Do you lean conservative or liberal?

Postby Scarblac » Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:00 pm UTC

fynch wrote:
Scarblac wrote:You already have me confused. By the so-called "true definition" (which one?) of liberal, it can be both left and right, right? Liberty on personal issues is a traditional left issue, liberty on economic issues is a traditional right issue.

I'm Dutch, by the way. For extra confusion, what we call "Liberals" are right-leaning free market fans, what you call "Liberals" are left-leaning personal freedom fans :-)


Liberal in politics just means the viewpoint being expressed is one of change and reform (They are liberally applying new ideas). Conservative means the viewpoint is: We've always done it this way, and it works, so why bother fixing it if it isn't too broke? (They conserve their ideas).

No no no, what you describe is "progressive". The opposite of conservative is progressive. Liberalism has the root "liber", i.e. free, and can be either.

Or at least that has been my understanding of it for most of my sentient life :-)

User avatar
Puellus Peregrinus
Sazl. Eliuo Sazl.
Posts: 258
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:57 pm UTC
Location: Tampere, Finland

Postby Puellus Peregrinus » Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:08 pm UTC

That's what I would say too. The word progressive, on the other hand, is derived from "progress" which is the opposite of "congress" :D
Romanes eunt domus!

User avatar
space_raptor
Posts: 1497
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:02 pm UTC
Location: Calgary
Contact:

Postby space_raptor » Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:35 pm UTC

fjafjan wrote:First of all the two are not their opposites, they are however the only two views largelly accepted in america, even though liberalism is starting to get 'dirtied down'.
Libertarians believe in the freedom of individuals, that you are where you are is the consequence of what you have chosen, and is generally a spin off from Adam Smith and Co
Conservatism is the emphathis on wisdom from the past, maintaining that what has been done before could not have been 'all that wrong', and is often based on religious morals, and the importance of a moral authority, where Liberalism generally prefers self moderations.
I saw a pretty good talk on this
Yo

However they confuse Libertarian with Socialist awell, since the left in America is generally a mix of the two, but they ofcourse don't want to call themselves Socialists because of the negative assosiations of that word.

Oh, and 'left wing' is not at all the correct word, considering the blatant questions etc.

Well, the definitions of the words have definitely become a little bit nebulous. Personally, I kind of embrace the "economic conservative" side of things. When it comes to morality I tend to be libertarian about things, which means less regulation on stuff like free speech, or drugs. I put that down to wanting less government interference. To me, "There oughta be a law" is a liberal attitude. Could be wrong though.

Also, i believe in decentralization as much as reasonably possible. I think that local governments can make better decisions on how to handle their problems.

For example, I think that a liberal policy would be to have, say, a national standardized school program with a bunch of benchmarks and standard education units for distribution to every school equally, probably through some bureaucracy called the National Schools Administration or something.

A conservative policy would be to take the same amount of money used to buy all those standard education units, distribute it as best they can among the regional school boards, and then the school boards can hire new teachers or build a new gym or buy whatever it is that they need. The conservatives would then figure out how much money they saved by not having a National Schools Administration, and cut taxes by that amount. :)

To me government is a necessary evil, and individuals or smaller groups can handle their problems a lot better and more efficiently than any government bureaucracy.

Social conservatives are a little bit of a different story. I do think that any changes to laws should be very carefully considered, because laws may have unintended consequences. The fewer laws made regarding morality the better, I think. Fewer laws = more conservative, in my view, but obviously that's not always how it is looked at.
The drinking will continue until morale improves.

User avatar
TheTankengine
Our Fora-father
Posts: 3328
Joined: Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:09 pm UTC
Location: Louisville, KY
Contact:

Postby TheTankengine » Mon Apr 16, 2007 5:30 pm UTC

Akula wrote:Socially Liberal
Economically Conservative
Hawkish on foreign affairs
Booyah!

Libertarian is where its at. I do my business, you do your business, we all prosper.
be centered
be compassionate
be interesting

User avatar
Rorgg
Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 6:06 pm UTC

Postby Rorgg » Mon Apr 16, 2007 7:57 pm UTC

I'm economically conservative and socially moderately liberal, which puts me in direct opposition to the current US administration, which is economically disastrous and socially oppressive (ok, I'm exaggerating, but only a little).

I'm pretty well-versed in Canadian politics, I'm probably slightly to the left of the Conservative party there. Since all of Canadian politics (outside Alberta... heh) tends to lean to social liberalism, I'd probably find myself voting Conservative more than Lib due to the economic platforms.

While the US Libertarian Party is nice in principle, I find it a completely impractical way to run an actual government.

starkruzr
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2006 7:35 am UTC
Contact:

Postby starkruzr » Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:26 pm UTC

I am shocked and highly impressed with everyone that this hasn't turned into a flamewar. Way to go, people.

I tend to identify as liberal but am strongly mistrustful of government, mostly because it tends to have a lot of privilege. I believe in David Brin's Transparent Society, if that makes any sense to anyone else.

Libertarianism and Communism share a flaw in that they both depend on people being perfect in some way. Communism depends on people being perfect workers and always having everyone's welfare in mind, and Libertarianism depends on people being perfectly generous and giving, because it admits the need for social welfare programs but claims that charity can take care of all of it. Such is manifestly not the case.

I think both can (and have been shown to) work on a very small scale, but a nation the size of the United States, Russia, or China introduces too much chaos.
+++ATH0

User avatar
space_raptor
Posts: 1497
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:02 pm UTC
Location: Calgary
Contact:

Postby space_raptor » Mon Apr 16, 2007 10:55 pm UTC

starkruzr wrote:I am shocked and highly impressed with everyone that this hasn't turned into a flamewar. Way to go, people.

It hasn't turned into a flamewar because apparently you're all pansy communist hippy types! :)

And before you call me a redneck, recognize that it might be taken as a compliment.

Libertarianism is a fun idea that works on paper but not in practice. :)
Communism is worse. It's not even fun.

Rorgg, I think you're probably right. A lot of the Liberal jawing is about how the Conservatives are EVIL and they don't care about the CHILDREN, but if you actually compare Liberal policies and Conservative policies on social issues, they're not that different. They both pretend to be different to make it sound good, but they're not.

I am in the rare position of actually being kinda happy with the federal government. They seem to be doing ok. I think this is in large part because it's a minority government, so they can't pass anything too controversial. Personally I think that is not so bad. The less the government does the better sometimes.
The drinking will continue until morale improves.

User avatar
Vaniver
Posts: 9422
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:12 am UTC

Postby Vaniver » Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:46 am UTC

Libertarianism is a fun idea that works on paper but not in practice.
This strikes me as odd. What would you call a Libertarian society that doesn't work in practice?
I mostly post over at LessWrong now.

Avatar from My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, owned by Hasbro.

User avatar
space_raptor
Posts: 1497
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 5:02 pm UTC
Location: Calgary
Contact:

Postby space_raptor » Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:09 am UTC

I dunno. What kind of society did they call it in Mad Max?

Well. I don't think it would be that bad. But I definitely don't think people give quite enough to charity to handle all the health care and the homeless, and I think that having the government handle public infrastructure is a fairly good way to do things.
The drinking will continue until morale improves.

User avatar
Sitnaltax
Posts: 92
Joined: Tue Jul 04, 2006 10:48 pm UTC
Location: Cleveland

Postby Sitnaltax » Tue Apr 17, 2007 3:27 am UTC

What would you call a Libertarian society that doesn't work in practice?


Anarchy.
I will not succumb to evil, unless she's cute.

Teaspoon
Posts: 351
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 11:37 pm UTC
Location: Where you least expect me

Postby Teaspoon » Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:11 am UTC

I'm finding "conservative" and "liberal" to be confusing labels, especially because there's an Australian political party calling themselves Liberal that is pretty damn conservative in some ways.

I took the ozpolitics quiz and the best party for me was AusDem on about 65%. This means that even the party I find most agreeable will do what I think is wrong 35% of the time. I need to find a better country. :P

I like the system on politicalcompass.org - I came up at around -2,-2. The left/right axis is the classic economic left/right deal and the up/down axis is social (the higher you are, the more involvement and control you think the government should have in people's lives)

User avatar
Sitnaltax
Posts: 92
Joined: Tue Jul 04, 2006 10:48 pm UTC
Location: Cleveland

Postby Sitnaltax » Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:48 am UTC

The politicalcompass quiz is pretty good, although I have a nagging suspicion that the questions are worded to elicit a libertarian response. I have libertarian sympathies myself, so I don't mind the bias, but I can where some would object.
I will not succumb to evil, unless she's cute.

User avatar
Drostie
Posts: 262
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 6:17 am UTC

Postby Drostie » Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:12 am UTC

Vaniver wrote:
Libertarianism is a fun idea that works on paper but not in practice.
This strikes me as odd. What would you call a Libertarian society that doesn't work in practice?

Nonexistant. Like all libertarian societies. *g*

The free market of world government has not seen fit to construct a libertarian country. It's somewhat quaint that there can be people who go "rah rah rah, free market capitalism," only to have free markets reply, "bugger off!" Makes me all giggly inside.

User avatar
Aoeniac
Posts: 656
Joined: Wed Dec 13, 2006 5:55 am UTC
Location: RIGHT HERE IN THIS VERY SPOT→•

Postby Aoeniac » Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:32 am UTC

Heh, my dad's a libertarian.
Class: 12th level Epiphenomenalist Alignment: Rational

jwwells
Posts: 180
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 4:47 am UTC

Postby jwwells » Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:50 pm UTC

I'm liberal-leaning by USA standards, but conservative by European standards.

User avatar
fjafjan
THE fjafjan
Posts: 4766
Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:22 pm UTC
Location: Down south up north in the west of eastern west.
Contact:

Postby fjafjan » Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:04 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:
Libertarianism is a fun idea that works on paper but not in practice.
This strikes me as odd. What would you call a Libertarian society that doesn't work in practice?


The United states of america?
//Yepp, THE fjafjan (who's THE fjafjan?)
Liza wrote:Fjafjan, your hair is so lovely that I want to go to Sweden, collect the bit you cut off in your latest haircut and keep it in my room, and smell it. And eventually use it to complete my shrine dedicated to you.

jwwells
Posts: 180
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2006 4:47 am UTC

Postby jwwells » Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:09 pm UTC

Using the Political Compass: I'm an economic Centrist, but a social Libertarian.

http://www.politicalcompass.org/printab ... &soc=-4.67

This seems about right. I strongly distrust the legislation of morality, whether it be for religious or progressive reasons, but I favor economic legislation to overcome inefficiencies that the free market has difficulty dealing with, to handle certain public services, and "level the playing field" such that everybody has some opportunity to contribute to the free market based on their ability rather than the circumstances of their birth. I believe in quotas and scholarships based on economic need, not racial divisions - racism still exists, but race-based affirmative action may worsen it.

However, I also believe that governmental intervention, especially at the national level, is usually far less efficient than local and individual action; thus, I only support the aforementioned programs because pollution, military defense, coordination problems, and class entrenchment all introduce externalities that are especially tough for a free market to deal with unaided.

User avatar
Jesse
Vocal Terrorist
Posts: 8635
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 6:33 pm UTC
Location: Basingstoke, England.
Contact:

Postby Jesse » Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:19 pm UTC


User avatar
Lulz
Posts: 40
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:50 am UTC

Postby Lulz » Tue Apr 17, 2007 10:36 pm UTC

fjafjan wrote:
Vaniver wrote:
Libertarianism is a fun idea that works on paper but not in practice.
This strikes me as odd. What would you call a Libertarian society that doesn't work in practice?


The United states of america?


Ah yes, the United States is very libertarian. Our military only constantly harasses people overseas while our domestic law enforcement spends its time cracking down on the great Satan that is cannabis. Consumer protection laws, limits on banking and corporations, a graduated income tax, inheritance tax, minimum wage laws, benefits laws, guaranteed medicine for children, the elderly and the poor, social security - all very Libertarian.

I generally agree with the government-leave-me-alone policies of Libertarianism, but I neither attach to it some kind of angsty, natural-rights righteousness nor do care whether there's a law requiring seat belts. In my experience the people who *seem* to know the most about economics are more fiscally conservate/socially liberal - and I'm not talking about myself. I don't know enough to have a worthwhile opinion, but I can't vote yet anyway.

User avatar
Toeofdoom
The (Male) Skeleton Guitarist
Posts: 3446
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:06 am UTC
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Postby Toeofdoom » Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:52 am UTC

http://www.politicalcompass.org/printablegraph?ec=-8.25&soc=-4.92

hmmm... apparently I'm close in belief to ghandi, the dalai lama and nelson mandela. all good then.

And on the opposite side from john howard, bush and blair >.>
Hawknc wrote:Gotta love our political choices here - you can pick the unionised socially conservative party, or the free-market even more socially conservative party. Oh who to vote for…I don't know, I think I'll just flip a coin and hope it explodes and kills me.

Website

User avatar
Tractor
Posts: 2467
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:17 pm UTC
Location: no

Postby Tractor » Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:23 am UTC

Toeofdoom wrote:http://www.politicalcompass.org/printablegraph?ec=-8.25&soc=-4.92

hmmm... apparently I'm close in belief to ghandi, the dalai lama and nelson mandela. all good then.

And on the opposite side from john howard, bush and blair >.>


Hrm, I'm somewhere about -3.3, -3.3. So libertarian left, but not by much.
9 x 6 = 42

Note: Randall kicks ass.

User avatar
AnonyMouse
Boobs, LOL!
Posts: 486
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:44 pm UTC
Contact:

Postby AnonyMouse » Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:37 am UTC

http://www.politicalcompass.org/printab ... &soc=-5.13

-4.75 -5.13

that's probably about right. or left, I suppose.
Image

User avatar
SenorOcho
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:43 am UTC
Location: Olathe, KS

Postby SenorOcho » Thu Apr 19, 2007 2:41 am UTC

http://www.politicalcompass.org/printablegraph?ec=-6.63&soc=-5.33

I don't believe in political parties, and certainly not a two-party system; one-dimensionality has hurt this country far more than it has ever helped.

But hey, graph. :D

User avatar
kcr
Posts: 288
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 6:34 pm UTC
Location: ny

Postby kcr » Thu Apr 19, 2007 2:53 am UTC

http://www.politicalcompass.org/printab ... &soc=-4.77
That was a very interesting site. And a cool set up. What can I say, I like graphs..

User avatar
JuliaGlass
Posts: 450
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 11:45 am UTC

Postby JuliaGlass » Thu Apr 19, 2007 3:03 am UTC


User avatar
SargeZT
Posts: 129
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:16 pm UTC

Postby SargeZT » Thu Apr 19, 2007 3:05 am UTC

I'm not taking the test, put put me at the farthest libertarian you can go before hitting anarchy town, and we'll golden.


Return to “General”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests