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Roffle
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Postby Roffle » Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:18 pm UTC

Mnjeah, okay. Just to tone it down a bit, so Tractor doesn't get upset:

No, I've proven that the rule doesn't exist.


Rule: Most people in upper managment have degrees or connections, and did by those qualifications, obtain their job.

Exception: Rarely, somebody working retail in that company gets promoted to a lower managment position, with the possibility of climbing the corporate ladder.

Logical deduction: Working your way up from rock bottom is a huge exception, and not the rule.

You haven't proven any thing remotely close to that the rule doesn't exist!

I mentioned where to find examples, I'm confidant that I'm correct, if it bothers you that much I'm sure you can find them.


Well, then I can't be arsed to find the statistics either. But you know what, let's just let people decide what sounds more logical. Tons of clerks promoted to CEO's, or people with educations and/or connections at the top.

I'm willing to wager that's more of a self-for filling prophesy than anything else. "I'm not in the old-boy's network so I might as well not even try."


How so? If anything, that's incentive to get INTO the old-boy's network. Again, instead of looking at statistics that neither of us can be arsed to find, let's leave this up to common sense. Does my theory sound likely? Lots of ex-clerks up top, or people on first-name basis with the good 'ol boys?

Exactly. How many do I know that are taking classes towards one of those degrees while they work as a clerk? 5. They work in retail because it's a mindless job that's easy to excel at so they can focus on their studies.


Which is exactly what I'm doing. Though mindless, it is not. And it's especially not so, if you try to perform as amazingly as you think one should, so that one can get promoted. People who do study are very bad examples. They won't get promoted whatever they do, because the boss knows they are only there temporarily. If the boss is going to promote anyone, it'll be the clerks that will stay with the company. But like I said, why would any boss hire anyone unqualified for the position, when he could just as easily bring in an equally dedicated and better educated person from outside? It doesn't happen, and I have never seen it do so.

There are in fact, a bunch of factors that need to be taken into consideration here. Bottom line is, if you bust your ass for the company, you *might* get a pat on the back as well as your regular paycheck. You won't get a promotion, not in this reality. If people want better jobs, they go get qualified, and then apply for them.

Why do they have to be seperate people? Why can't the cashier and the person in college working towards a masters be the same person?


Sure they can! But like I said, that would automatically diqualify them for promotion, unless they were educating themselves spesifically for that job in that company, which is... rare. And then they will probably have to apply for it, anyway.

There seems to be a theme here that corporations should only promote people who have worked there without a degree. Which seems to be a bizarre mindset. Being a good clerk doesn't automatically make you a good manager.


Yes, that is a bizarre mindset. It's not my mindset. It's not Belial's mindset. It's Solt's mindset. Are you suddenly agreeing with us?

My logic is flawless, if you're disgruntled enough to actively steal large amounts of money from customers it's unlikely you have good personal skills.


Flawless logic does not contain speculation (the word unlikely). For all you know, that statement might be false, on many separate points. Firstly, it assumes that the person is disgrunteled. Secondly, it assumes that there are large sums involved. Thirdly, degree of (hyothetical)disgruntlement and amount of money does not, to my knowledge, impact on personal skills.

If you reread what I wrote, you'll discover that it is MY logic that is flawless.

It was ironic because the sentence I was replying to implied that he would stop taking the customers money because it would get him fired, when in a previous post he bragged about stealing money from the customer.


Bragged? I don't remember bragging. I remember information being given, but no bragging. And the sentence you were replying to implyed that at no point would Belial stop doing his job properly, no matter how much the customer acted like an asshole.

Does shortchanging an asshole customer (I gathered this was the exception, not the rule), make Belial less of a decent person? I don't think so. Sure, it's technically stealing, but there's equity here. One might even say that that unpleasant behaviour is harassment (it sure as hell would be if he was acting like that towards a total stranger on the street, for instance), and thusly subject to legal sanctions, more often than not, a fine. So, really, the harrassing asshole is actually punished less than what is proper. For instance, if someone rams you with their shopping cart, then that's assault, and should be sanctioned. If you stand there laughing, you're not doing your duty as a citizen, reporting this person and ensuring that this behaviour does not continue unchecked.

Of course, there's the spiral concept, guy is asshole, gets bad service, gets mad at the store, continues to be an asshole etc... But what is the guy behind the counter supposed to do about it? That spiral can only be broken by the customer, as the clerk does his damn job, EVERY single time.

I'm sorry, when does being rude give someone car blanch to steal from you? Are we confusing social norms and laws? This isn't Vietnam, there are rules here.


It doesn't, and I didn't say that any form of stealing was right. But behaving without common courtesy has sanctions, you can't even possibly disagree with that. I think it would offend people's moral sensibilities if some guy comes in, treats the guy behind the counter like dirt, and gets top notch service. I get sympathetic looks when I encounter assholes, so it's clear that people don't think this is ok. But like I said, I don't condone stealing in any way. However, if you act like an asshole, you don't get good service. The wares you buy with money, great service you buy with a smile.

As for the promotion. Hell no, I took the degree I was working towards and got myself a real job. One of my co-workers was promoted to some kind of mid-level management a month or so after I left, because he was a good worker. If he decides to stay with that company he will go far within it, even without a coveted degree from Harvard.


So now working a cashier isn't a real job? It's nice to see the kind of respect you have for your fellow human beings.

And I'm pretty sure that promotion was based on more than just him being a good worker, there are dozens of "good workers" where I work, and I'm one of them, because I take pride in doing my job well, and giving my customers great service. So I'm pretty sure that he had some kind of education, or an excellent relationship with some managerial types. Of course, I could be wrong, like I said, exceptions exist to every rule.

If this isn't the first time someone has told you to get over yourself, it might be time to actually look into it. As for the autograph, sure, PM me your address and I'll fire one off. Babies? I don't know, I'll have to check some of the laws about transporting biological material across state lines. Let me contact my lawyer and get back to you.


Kinda missed the point there, I see. However, I don't see why I should condone your rude dismissal of our opinions and feelings with a polite answer. "Get over yourselves"? Way to show understanding. Thanks.

Of course, as you know I was completely on the mark, you are compelled to just joke it all away. Yeah, good going, we didn't even notice much.

And don't bother, I study law. It's illegal. Haha.

I don't really see how I fit into any of those. In fact, it would really seem that I'm the least psychopathic one in this thread.


Psychopaths and people with SPD experience a severely reduced state of emotional feedback. They don't feel emotions like we do. But really, I was merely making the point that if nothing anybody says to you or even having a really bad day at work affects your mood at all, then you're either lying, or afflicted with aforementioned diseases. Normal people get affected by having a bad day.
"Error juris semper nocet"

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Lani
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Postby Lani » Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:19 pm UTC

space_raptor wrote:Lani: The mom of teh fora.

*runs away*


Damn straight.

Now come here and finish your broccoli.
- Lani

"They think they're so high and mighty, just because they never got caught driving without pants."

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Roffle
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Postby Roffle » Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:22 pm UTC

lani wrote:(was more referring to the posts preceeding Beelie)


Like me? That hurts, you know. I was just responding. Sarcasm gets the point across, it really does! (Doesn't it?)

Anyway, I'm right.
"Error juris semper nocet"

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wilkeson
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Postby wilkeson » Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:00 pm UTC

Roffle wrote:Rule: Most people in upper managment have degrees or connections, and did by those qualifications, obtain their job.

Exception: Rarely, somebody working retail in that company gets promoted to a lower managment position, with the possibility of climbing the corporate ladder.

Logical deduction: Working your way up from rock bottom is a huge exception, and not the rule.

You haven't proven any thing remotely close to that the rule doesn't exist!


Well now you're just changing the original premise to fit your needs. The original point counter-point went:

Even in this day and age, there are plenty of CEOs with no formal education beyond high school who started off as manual laborers or a sales clerk

I'd like to see some statistic on that claim, please. Exactly how many people, on average, in managment positions, are not educated to be in that position? If you don't know squat about echonomics, trade, sociology, psychology and whatnot, how can you hold an upper managment job?


You asked for examples, so I provided some information stating that this is a common occurrence (common enough to comprise 12% of FedEx top-crust executives). There is no way that every upper-level position would be filled by people with no formal business education.

In fact, that's an even worse example for me, because those positions have no use for people with experience with the day-to-day operations of a company. I'd be willing to bet that the lower level management positions have an even higher percentage, simply because they would require some knowledge of how things work at that level.

I'm willing to wager that's more of a self-for filling prophesy than anything else. "I'm not in the old-boy's network so I might as well not even try."


How so? If anything, that's incentive to get INTO the old-boy's network. Again, instead of looking at statistics that neither of us can be arsed to find, let's leave this up to common sense. Does my theory sound likely? Lots of ex-clerks up top, or people on first-name basis with the good 'ol boys?


Yes, let's ignore the fact that there are hardly any "old boys" schools in the FedEx top executives and rephrase a concept so that it read in your favor. Oh, I know, how about since businesses are about making money the business-men hire the most competent person for the job to make more money. Now I'm right! That's easy.

There are in fact, a bunch of factors that need to be taken into consideration here. Bottom line is, if you bust your ass for the company, you *might* get a pat on the back as well as your regular paycheck. You won't get a promotion, not in this reality. If people want better jobs, they go get qualified, and then apply for them.


This argument seems to have split the people into two groups:

A) Entry level clerk with no secondary education
B) Post-graduate with alphabet soup of degrees

In doing so I think we've glossed over the fact that many people do in fact acquire an education while working and therefore better their chances of a promotion. I'm claiming those people for my side of the argument because they already work there. So now it's even more common that people who work someplace will be promoted, with a little effort on their part of course.

Sure they can! But like I said, that would automatically qualify them for promotion, unless they were educating themselves spesifically for that job in that company, which is... rare. And then they will probably have to apply for it, anyway.


Where do you work where a degree automatically qualifies you for a promotion? I've never heard of anything like that. The closest I've seen is that some companies offer higher starting salaries based on level of education. Which, if anything, would work against someone with a higher degree, due to the higher cost of employing them.

My logic is flawless, if you're disgruntled enough to actively steal large amounts of money from customers it's unlikely you have good personal skills.


Flawless logic does not contain speculation (the word unlikely). For all you know, that statement might be false, on many separate points. Firstly, it assumes that the person is disgrunteled. Secondly, it assumes that there are large sums involved. Thirdly, degree of (hyothetical)disgruntlement and amount of money does not, to my knowledge, impact on personal skills.

If you reread what I wrote, you'll discover that it is MY logic that is flawless.


True, I should have used something like common sense, or "it stands to reason." Darn, that would have worked perfectly. Oh well, save that one for a later date.

Bragged? I don't remember bragging. I remember information being given, but no bragging.


Maybe we have different opinions of what bragging is, but mentioning how you buy your lunch with stolen funds sounds like bragging to me.

the change you don't notice you're missing that instead buys my lunch.


Maybe it's just me.

Does shortchanging an asshole customer (I gathered this was the exception, not the rule), make Belial less of a decent person? I don't think so...


Wow, and that sums it up perfectly.

It doesn't, and I didn't say that any form of stealing was right.


Oh. Wait, what? I guess we have different requirements for moving someone up and down on the decent scale. We seem to have a lot in uncommon.

So now working a cashier isn't a real job? It's nice to see the kind of respect you have for your fellow human beings.


It wasn't a real job for me. I worked there as a means of getting myself educated. Once I became educated I went out and got a job in a field that I wanted to work in. More power to you if you want to work as a cashier.

And I'm pretty sure that promotion was based on more than just him being a good worker, there are dozens of "good workers" where I work, and I'm one of them, because I take pride in doing my job well, and giving my customers great service. So I'm pretty sure that he had some kind of education, or an excellent relationship with some managerial types. Of course, I could be wrong, like I said, exceptions exist to every rule.


Antidotal stories are rubbish and I probably shouldn't have mentioned it. But if you're up for taking my word I'll say that all he had was a high school diploma. And he had an excellent relationship with the management because he was a good worker. But I doubt they went out for drinks, actually, that would have been pretty funny.

"Get over yourselves"? Way to show understanding. Thanks.


Tough love baby.

Of course, as you know I was completely on the mark, you are compelled to just joke it all away. Yeah, good going, we didn't even notice much.


About the autograph? I was serious, I never joke about autograph requests.

Serious about what though? Me feeling aggravated? I guess my posts need more smilies, if this was making me aggravated I wouldn't do this.

And don't bother, I study law. It's illegal. Haha.


Hey, don't give up. Where there's a will, there’s a way.

And now, for the necessary smilie markup:
:D :D :D :) :D :lol: :lol:






:wink:

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Postby Jesse » Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:04 pm UTC

In Asda (Wal*Mart) they actively encouraged us entry level workers to go for management positions. They would train us on individual departments, then we'd switch around and try other departments so we could effectively run any part of the store; then off for exams and testing and all that. Pass and you got yourself a management job.

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Postby Solt » Thu Apr 19, 2007 12:08 am UTC

Roffle wrote:
Adorable or not, he's right. here's a link to Federal Express' top executives. There is actually a handful of them with nothing more than a bachelors degree. And honestly bachelors degrees practically come in boxes of cereal these days. Also keep in mind that those are the top of the top of the top. I'd be willing to bet that the lower you go the less MBAs you find.


How does that make him right? Those are a few exceptions to the rule. Congratulations. You've proven that the rule has exceptions.

Now, please go find me a thousand more. And even then, that would be an extremely small percentage of the business world.


I could find you ten thousand more. A hundred thousand. Millions if you go around asking people whether they would have been just as successful without the college education. The primary occupation on planet earth is business, after all, and not everyone can go to college. Hell, look at Bill Gates- dropped out of fucking college. No economics education. No business education. No computer science education. Nothing but a high school diploma. How do you explain that he's the richest man and probably the single most successful business man in the world?


Let's also examine something else. I didn't want to bring up the social aspect, but have you ever heard of a little thing called connections? Rich families? The image of the "self-made man" is all well and good, but he is an exception, or rather an exceptionally resourceful and driven man. Those people are possible. Harvard educated rich boys on first-name basis with the CEO, there are more of. What? You think I'm wrong? Aww... That's so naive of you.


Sure, connections are important. How else do you recruit good managers when most of your work force consists of lazy, whiny bums who see no point in their work? (not directed at any of you, but at the workforce in general) As much as they'd like it, a company's low level workforce doesn't produce enough managers to grow, so they have to hire out of 1337 colleges and go through people they know. Why wouldn't you hire the child of a friend that you respect for their success? Chances are, they've passed some of their values on to their kids, who will also be successful.

Connections are just another way of finding the talent.


How many clerks and salespeople do you know that have a bachelor in echonomics or management? Hm? Really? Well, maybe that's because they don't work in retail, they got the jobs they were educated for!


You place far too much emphasis on degrees. Isn't having the skills to run a business more important than having an MBA? No, there isn't a direct correlation between the two and companies know this.


Look at it from the employers perspective: Do you want a person with 5 years of education in economics running the show, or the cashier who's only qualification is to plaster on a fake smile and attach his lips to the customers ass? Heck, I'd rather take the rudest sonnovabitch clerk I could find, because then I'd at least be sure that he'd have the balls to make tough decisions and negotiate good deals.


I don't get it. You just contradicted your own arguments and supported my point. Employers want people who will be responsible representatives of the shareholders' interests and who have good management skills. I don't care if you fucking teach at Harvard Business School, those are skills you simply don't pick up in a college atmosphere, but down in the trenches. So obviously the best employees come from the bottom. These people also happen to be more loyal to the company than self serving greedy college grads who'll leave you if they get a better offer.

You understand all this and yet... you don't think employers follow these practices that are clearly more logical?

You're wrong on one point, however. As a business, you want someone with "the balls to make tough decisions and negotiate good deals," yes. You want someone who knows how things are done, who has spent time in the thick of things so they can understand the problems as they happen and quickly fix them, and even see possibility for improvement where an outsider wouldn't even think to look. You want someone experienced and responsible.

You also want this person to be exceptionally good at dealing with people. You don't want some wuss with easily hurt feelings who'll get pissed at dumb/rude customers and project a bad image. As a matter of fact, I'd say that if anything will stop you from getting promoted, it's being a jackass to customers.

Really, who in their right mind would put a freaking 22 year old college grad who hasn't worked a day in his life in control of a store... and expect him to know what to do? Who in their right mind wouldn't put a sales clerk that has proven to be effective, responsible, hard working and loyal in charge of a store? Who wouldn't want to include the perspectives of such people in the highest decision making circles of the company?
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Postby Tractor » Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:14 am UTC

Roffle wrote:Mnjeah, okay. Just to tone it down a bit, so Tractor doesn't get upset:

I was just making an observation, I don't give a shit what you do. No need to be a dick about it.
9 x 6 = 42

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Roffle
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Postby Roffle » Thu Apr 19, 2007 8:04 am UTC

Well now you're just changing the original premise to fit your needs.


Actually, I was making myself perfectly clear, so that you'd understand me.

But fine

Even in this day and age, there are plenty of CEOs with no formal education beyond high school who started off as manual laborers or a sales clerk


Ok... Let's take your prime example, then. I find ONE person without a bachelor's or at least some uni education, among all those very educated, very well connected people. That's 1/25 (4%) of this radiant, shining example of yours.

And the CEO?

Smith has served on the boards of several large public companies and the St. Jude Children's Research Hospital and Mayo Foundation Boards. He was formerly chairman of the Board of Governors for the International Air Transport Association and the U.S. Air Transport Association. Smith is chair of the Business Roundtable’s Security Task Force, and a member of the Business Council and the CATO Institute. He served as chairman of the U.S.-China Business Council and is the current chairman of the French-American Business Council. In addition, Smith was named 2006 Person of the Year by the French-American Chamber of Commerce. He is a member of the Aviation Hall of Fame, served as co-chairman of the U.S. World War II Memorial Project, and was named Chief Executive magazine’s 2004 “CEO of the Year.”

Born in 1944 in Marks, Miss., Smith attended Yale University, where he earned a B.A. in 1966. Smith served as an officer in the U.S. Marine Corps from 1966-1970.


I would seem to think that this leans a tad more to my side of the argument, and not yours.

Oh, I know, how about since businesses are about making money the business-men hire the most competent person for the job to make more money. Now I'm right! That's easy.


Yes! Exactly! They WILL hire the most competent person, and that person, outside of extraordinary circumstances, will NOT be a person working as a clerk, no matter how impressed bosses are by how well they take daily abuse.

But I will have to say this, I do know someone that I worked with who did get promoted from clerk level to managing an entire store, somewhere else. Yup. But she wasn't really a great worker, and she talked back to the customers just as much as she wanted.

She was the daugher of someone in high-level managment.

I could find you ten thousand more. A hundred thousand. Millions if you go around asking people whether they would have been just as successful without the college education. The primary occupation on planet earth is business, after all, and not everyone can go to college. Hell, look at Bill Gates- dropped out of fucking college. No economics education. No business education. No computer science education. Nothing but a high school diploma. How do you explain that he's the richest man and probably the single most successful business man in the world?


No, you really couldn't. And the example you did find really didn't prove much either.

Well, people CAN have success without a college degree, I don't think we're discussing that. And Bill Gates is a great businessman. He's not a clerk, though. In fact, I don't see his relevance to anything we've been talking about.

Connections are just another way of finding the talent.


Mnyeah, no, I'm gonna go with the fact that connections get you sweet jobs.

I don't get it. You just contradicted your own arguments and supported my point. Employers want people who will be responsible representatives of the shareholders' interests and who have good management skills. I don't care if you fucking teach at Harvard Business School, those are skills you simply don't pick up in a college atmosphere, but down in the trenches. So obviously the best employees come from the bottom. These people also happen to be more loyal to the company than self serving greedy college grads who'll leave you if they get a better offer.


No, I really didn't. If you read again, here's an employers wishlist for candidated for a managment job:

1: Highly motivated, highly loyal, highly competent (educated) person.
2: Highly competent person.
3: Clerk with balls.
4: Clerk without a spine.

How does that contradict my point? And don't swear, that's rude.

Now, your "obvious" deduction has a number of flaws. Employers want people who know how to do their job, THAT is how they take care of a shareholder's interest. You do pick up a lot of skills in college, managment, logicstics and echonomics being some of them, and they are all invaluable when in a managerial position. People from the floor don't get promoted in real life, no matter how much you theorycraft it.

Who in their right mind would put a store clerk in charge of a store when there are more competent, more motivated, and more loyal people out there for grabs? People fresh from college are headhunted just for this reason, the first employer to give them a job usually earns a lot of loyalty from said graduate.

So your "logic" isn't very logical.

But never mind, let's just get back to the original point.

This is what you think: People who shop at a store are in no way obligated to be polite, treat the person behind the counter like a human being and not trash, and the person behind the counter should be grateful for this, because it gives him a chance to show his boss (who's nowhere around) that he can take a hole helluva lot of abuse with a smile.

Meanwhile, the people standing in line get more and more aggravated as they have to wait for this clerk to stop smiling inanely and get the asshole that's chewing him out for not having the right flavour of gum through the checkout, so they can pay for their wares and go home.

I'm sorry, but that person is NOT good at his job. Instead of getting rid of one person who's already pissed, he's aggravating an entire line of people. And you would know this, had you ever worked as a clerk.

Trust me. Somebody who knows what they are doing will not bother giving a lost cause any undeserved service, and rather focus his attention on people whomhe might give a positive experience to, which will make them come back some other time. Assholes do not deserve good service, and in the real world, they don't get it either.

EDIT:

I was just making an observation, I don't give a shit what you do. No need to be a dick about it.


I was funnin'. That makes me a dick? Well, I'm sorry I hurt your feelings then. It wasn't intentional.

Well, you did infer that I was an asshole, so maybe I'm not so sorry after all, come to think of it.

But people, let's just forget about this now. You're wrong, but I'm not going to convinve you anyway, so we are going to have to agree to disagree, before this thread is locked. I'm sure other people want a say in how they perceive service relationships as well.
"Error juris semper nocet"

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Postby Pebbles » Thu Apr 19, 2007 9:22 am UTC

oh my lord, i never imagined thered be THIS much to bitch about in customer service. Clearly i havent been in it long enough.
xx
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Postby Roffle » Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:45 am UTC

Oh, honey, you haven't even seen me get started bitching yet!

Mkay?

:P
"Error juris semper nocet"

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Postby Tractor » Thu Apr 19, 2007 1:18 pm UTC

Pebbles wrote:oh my lord, i never imagined thered be THIS much to bitch about in customer service. Clearly i havent been in it long enough.
xx


heh, after having worked in it for a few years in the past, and known people who have had a far larger hand in it, this is only scratching the surface. Dealing with customers sucks ass. Which is why I'm at a job where I sit at a desk as far removed from the customers as possible. I have enough crap to deal with, I don't need that too.
9 x 6 = 42



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Postby wilkeson » Thu Apr 19, 2007 2:36 pm UTC

Roffle wrote:But people, let's just forget about this now. You're wrong, but I'm not going to convinve you anyway, so we are going to have to agree to disagree, before this thread is locked. I'm sure other people want a say in how they perceive service relationships as well.

No, you're wrong and I'm never going to convince you.

So yes, we disagree.

Still waiting on that address.

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Postby Roffle » Thu Apr 19, 2007 2:44 pm UTC

Myeah, well, you're gonna have to wait for quite a while then, as I don't give out my address to strangers on the intarblag. Well, heck, you could just trace my IP, after all, everyone can do that, right?
"Error juris semper nocet"

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Re: Customers

Postby Mikemk » Wed Mar 16, 2016 9:55 pm UTC

I just bumped the oldest thread in the forum games subforum

EDIT: Make that the oldest last reply
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Re: Customers

Postby flicky1991 » Thu Mar 17, 2016 6:40 am UTC

Mikemk wrote:I just bumped the oldest thread in the forum games subforum

EDIT: Make that the oldest last reply

It's weird that it starts in mid-conversation like that. Did some old posts get lost or something?

EDIT: Also, this isn't Forum Games :P
any pronouns
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