Is Google Evil? (Split from swim across the atlantic google)

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Is Google Evil? (Split from swim across the atlantic google)

Postby fjafjan » Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:08 pm UTC

Castaway wrote:Hahahaha, google is amazing, i love them.


Google is, sadly, the new MS
Ie, Evil.
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Postby vrek » Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:23 pm UTC

fjafjan wrote:
Castaway wrote:Hahahaha, google is amazing, i love them.


Google is, sadly, the new MS
Ie, Evil.

Well I don't see them price gouging. Most of there stuff is not extremely bloated. I don't know of any illegal buissiness practices that got them where they are. Their employees are VERY well taken care of.

How exactly are they evil? Just because they are giant and are number one in their field does not make them evil.

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Postby crazyjimbo » Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:25 pm UTC

vrek wrote:How exactly are they evil? Just because they are giant and are number one in their field does not make them evil.


Agreed. It's unfortunate that the bigger they get, the more profit oriented and the futher removed from the end user they will seem but that doesn't make them evil.

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Postby el sjaako » Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:27 pm UTC

fjafjan wrote:Google is, sadly, the new MS
Ie, Evil.


Microsoft used to be fun also. I think they are still, in some ways. Remember the games built into office?
Although microsoft is at the mercy of the investors in a way that google refuses to be (they've managed this legally), it is still a collection of individuals. I expect that many of them are the type of person that would enjoy reading XKCD. I expect some of them do already.

Yes, both companies are monopolies. The only difference one might note is that google earned theirs with a product far superior to the competition, but I wasn't around when Microsoft "got into power", so I can't be sure.

In short, what you said is a gross oversimplification.

Also, I think that google maps thing is totally awesome.

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Postby vrek » Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:49 pm UTC

el sjaako wrote:
fjafjan wrote:Google is, sadly, the new MS
Ie, Evil.


Yes, both companies are monopoly's. The only difference one might note is that google earned thiers with a product far superior to the competition, but I wasn't around when Microsoft "got into power", so I can't be sure.

Microsoft got into business by selling the Dos to IBM for their first line of computers. Then, AFTER MAKING THAT DEAL, bought Dos from another company at a much smaller price, modified it very slightly just so it would work with the hardware and named it MS-DOS.

In other words they sold a product they could not make in the timeframe nor did they have pre-made then bought a similar product re-tagged it and delivered that as their own.

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Postby Xanthia » Thu Apr 26, 2007 5:55 pm UTC

space_raptor wrote:
Xanthia wrote:yes, but it doesn't work for anywhere except Europe. Cairo, Baghdad, Rio de Janeiro and Sydney are all apparently not special enough to make it onto Google Maps.

So what does this tell us about the world?

Something tells me that you're a riot at parties.


While I take minor offense at this, I'm not at all a riot, so it's rather fair of you to accuse me of such things.

But I'm in a lit course right now that's studying imperialism, so everything takes on an imperialist viewpoint.
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Postby Peshmerga » Thu Apr 26, 2007 5:57 pm UTC

fjafjan wrote:
Castaway wrote:Hahahaha, google is amazing, i love them.


Google is, sadly, the new MS
Ie, Evil.


Fjafjan is a pinko liberal commie, don't listen to his red words.
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Postby space_raptor » Thu Apr 26, 2007 6:04 pm UTC

Xanthia wrote:
space_raptor wrote:
Xanthia wrote:yes, but it doesn't work for anywhere except Europe. Cairo, Baghdad, Rio de Janeiro and Sydney are all apparently not special enough to make it onto Google Maps.

So what does this tell us about the world?

Something tells me that you're a riot at parties.


While I take minor offense at this, I'm not at all a riot, so it's rather fair of you to accuse me of such things.

But I'm in a lit course right now that's studying imperialism, so everything takes on an imperialist viewpoint.

You're in a literature course that studies imperialism? How does that work?
I'm a fairly well read engineer, so while I don't know anything about studying literature, I do know how to read it. Usually I'm pretty skeptical.
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Postby TheTankengine » Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:33 pm UTC

el sjaako wrote:
fjafjan wrote:Google is, sadly, the new MS
Ie, Evil.


Microsoft used to be fun also. I think they are still, in some ways. Remember the games built into office?
Although microsoft is at the merci of the investors in a way that google refuses to be (they've managed this legally), it is still a collection of individials. I expect that many of them are the type of person that would enjoy reading XKCD. I expect some of them do already.

Yes, both companies are monopoly's. The only difference one might note is that google earned thiers with a product far superior to the competition, but I wasn't around when Microsoft "got into power", so I can't be sure.

In short, what you said is a gross oversimplification.

Also, I think that google maps thing is totally awesome.


1) Neither company is a monopoly. Both companies just happen to be extremely good at what they do, respectively. Can I search from yahoo, ask, altavista, live, etc.? Yes (though I wouldn't). Can I install Linux on my computer as an OS? Yes (which I have done).

I don't see how Google is evil at all. The only thing I've heard of really, is the censorship of some results in China. While it is unfortunate that Google decided to play by China's rules, they are certainly doing a much better job than Yahoo! is in that country. Also, Google is doing its best to allow the free spread of knowledge in China, sounds pretty benevolent to me. They support a fantastic amount of Open Source technology. They pay some employees to work on Linux. They host Google's Summer of Code, which results in an outpouring of advancement in many OSS advancements. They release a huge number of applications to the public for free, and I utilize many of these, as they happen to be some of the highest quality programs in their fields. I certainly don't see how Google is a monopoly, much less evil.

The only thing MS has a monopoly on is mindshare. People think that in order to use computers in a business, you have to use Windows because everyone else uses Windows. There is choice, and some of it is freely available. Not a monopoly. (On a related note, you can't compete with the price of free forever. Someday people will realize what this whole movement is all about and more and more will jump on.)
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Postby Peshmerga » Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:54 pm UTC

TheTankengine wrote:1) Neither company is a monopoly. Both companies just happen to be extremely good at what they do, respectively.


*cough* I hope you mean Windows is extremely good with their business, and not with Windows Operating System software.

Google, however, is an extremely effective and fast search engine- though you're right that they do not hold a monopoly over internet search engines.
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Postby fjafjan » Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:16 pm UTC

Peshmerga wrote:
fjafjan wrote:
Castaway wrote:Hahahaha, google is amazing, i love them.


Google is, sadly, the new MS
Ie, Evil.


Fjafjan is a pinko liberal commie, don't listen to his red words.


My words are red by the blood gushed on them by the blood soaked underpants of Bush.

That really is a terrible metaphor

Anyhow, google are evil in a number of fashions, as nearly all major companies are evil, partly because of the very 1984 style they market, you sell your privacy for "free" things. Ofcourse some people here will argue that money is god, and that our desire for privacy is hopelessly outdated or whatever, but I like corporations not knowing everything about me, or having that informaiton sold wihtout me knowing it. But oh that is just pinko me. The Brain just wants to conquor the world :P
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Postby Peshmerga » Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:19 pm UTC

fjafjan wrote:
Peshmerga wrote:
fjafjan wrote:
Castaway wrote:Hahahaha, google is amazing, i love them.


Google is, sadly, the new MS
Ie, Evil.


Fjafjan is a pinko liberal commie, don't listen to his red words.


My words are red by the blood gushed on them by the blood soaked underpants of Bush.

That really is a terrible metaphor

Anyhow, google are evil in a number of fashions, as nearly all major companies are evil, partly because of the very 1984 style they market, you sell your privacy for "free" things. Ofcourse some people here will argue that money is god, and that our desire for privacy is hopelessly outdated or whatever, but I like corporations not knowing everything about me, or having that informaiton sold wihtout me knowing it. But oh that is just pinko me. The Brain just wants to conquor the world :P


I'll start getting pissed when "evil" corporations use my identity against me- otherwise, I'm perfectly OK with a few companies knowing my email address and sexual preference.
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Postby space_raptor » Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:48 pm UTC

What does Google know about me that I don't want them to know?
I will acknowledge that perhaps, somewhere in Google HQ, there is a computer that knows that somebody who lives close to me searched for certain things. I am confident, however, that no living person has any idea of what my search history is.

What Google did in China is fine. They obeyed the law, and they are spreading information that previously would have been more difficult to find. It's the internet. Things will get through the cracks of the Chinese government's internet filters. Baby steps.
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Postby aldimond » Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:05 pm UTC

Peshmerga wrote:*cough* I hope you mean Windows is extremely good with their business, and not with Windows Operating System software.


Recent versions of Windows get a lot right. One thing that Microsoft gets right in particular is their system integration for small and medium-sized businesses. Most of the components aren't best-of-class, some have maddening bugs and they are heavy on lock-in, but they all work well enough for most people, and they all work together pretty easily. The core Windows kernel is pretty reliable, and they have done more work than anyone else I know of to make drivers less dangerous.

Their marketing sheen is thick and opaque. Messages in their software frequently talk down to users, and read like they were written by a large committee. Their software acts, often clumsily, for Microsoft's will rather than that of its users (Microsoft refuses to throw its weight around against the entertainment industry on behalf of its users/developers; as much as I don't really like Apple, at least they've done that). Windows seems to lack a sense of humor or fun, and it's hard exactly to pin a finger on what that means and why it is, but I think it just feels like the product of bureaucracy, rather than passionate engineering.

What I'm saying is that I think Microsoft actually frequently impresses me technically, but that their marketing and business messages leave me cold.

EDIT: And, as far as Google goes... I am not quite as enamored with them as some people are. Is Google's stuff buggy? Yes! A glitch causing data loss for users of Google personalized home pages is on the front page of Slashdot right now. IIRC there have been some pretty scary Gmail bugs in the past as well. Google Maps consistently underestimates driving times. And it's had an obnoxious bug pretty much forever by which occasionally an incorrect tile, sometimes even an image from a different website, winds up in your map and it won't go away (this might be the browser's fault, but if so it only points out one of the dangers of using a web browser as your application platform). Is Google's stuff bloated? Can you spell "Blogger"? Not only is the interface pretty slow, but the page layouts are overly complicated, fragile when you try to change simple things, and the overall markup that you get in blog posts (unless you just write the html yourself) is hideous. I've never had a LiveJournal, but from seeing my friends' LJ pages I think they're much simpler than Blogger's, and apparently still pretty flexible (I've seen people do some pretty creative stuff with LJ layouts). In total, We have plenty of processing power on the desktop, and Google's efforts to take applications off the desktop and onto the web in order to pump our lives full of even more advertisements doesn't seem like a step forward to me.
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Postby Xanthia » Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:46 pm UTC

space_raptor wrote:
Xanthia wrote:
space_raptor wrote:
Xanthia wrote:yes, but it doesn't work for anywhere except Europe. Cairo, Baghdad, Rio de Janeiro and Sydney are all apparently not special enough to make it onto Google Maps.

So what does this tell us about the world?

Something tells me that you're a riot at parties.


While I take minor offense at this, I'm not at all a riot, so it's rather fair of you to accuse me of such things.

But I'm in a lit course right now that's studying imperialism, so everything takes on an imperialist viewpoint.

You're in a literature course that studies imperialism? How does that work?
I'm a fairly well read engineer, so while I don't know anything about studying literature, I do know how to read it. Usually I'm pretty skeptical.


It's technically an "Ethnography" course, but it basically means we're reading things written by white guys when they encountered native peoples.
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Postby elminster » Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:43 am UTC

Microsoft flaws have cost billions in repair because they didnt work as intended. A number of markets (Viral Adware, Extortion by hackers, Anti-virus vendors, Pc repair services, etc) a built on largely on that, wonder how many other companies can claim that.

I dont think i can put Google in their league just yet. Although bigger companies will inherantly have more flaws, Google seems to have good ethics (eg, the case with Government demanding search data, decent free things, quite quick fixes, etc)... also it looks like a real cool place to work :oops:
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Postby Castaway » Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:05 am UTC

Google's got morals. I don't think Microsoft really cares anymore. Also, Microsoft isn't even a verb yet.
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Postby aldimond » Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:50 am UTC

The only reason Google's flaws haven't cost anyone billions of dollars is that nobody's been stupid enough to trust sensitive data to Google's servers. Google's stuff at the moment is consumer-grade (just like Microsoft's was in the early days). I don't think that Google's attitude towards security will ever be as lax as Microsoft's once was, but there will be vulnerabilities in Google services. Then again, I think Google has an easier job than Microsoft does; Google's business is selling ads. You are the product, not the customer. They're basically an entertainment company, CBS for the 21st century. They can put half-finished ideas out there, and anything that draws the attention of people will make them money.

Does Google have morals? Remember when Google ads had borders and could be easily distinguished from the rest of the page? Remember when sponsored search results were more easily distinguishable from the others? I think Google has morals to about the same degree that most TV stations have journalistic integrity. They have some morals, but what's really important is the illusion that they have morals.
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Postby d3adf001 » Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:59 am UTC

google is both at the same time. they are good because they are fighting viacom but bad because they watch everything you do. personally i just block google analytics so i dont really worry and all my unimportant email goes to gmail.

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Postby warriorness » Fri Apr 27, 2007 3:06 am UTC

One of the key differences, I think, is that you have to pay to use a Microsoft product, but you can use Google for free. Yes, Google does make money from ads and such, but you're never forced to pay a cent, except to your internet service provider for the bandwidth. As long as Google's services remain free, it will never be "evil".

As for Microsoft, on the other hand... I'm not sure that they're evil, but it's very obvious that they care so much more about making money than about pleasing customers. Just look at Vista: It's essentially DX10 and a flashy new GUI packaged as a "new operating system", "the next big thing", etc. It could just as easily have been a service pack or upgrade (akin to win98 SE, I guess) to XP, at a fraction of the cost. But it wouldn't earn them as much money. So they chose the "cold-hearted lifeless corporation" path.

Another thing to consider is the Windows Registry. I don't think you'll find a single sane and knowledgeable person in the world who actually LIKES the Registry. But Microsoft has kept it there across practically every version of Windows thus far, because it'd be too costly to rework their operating system to get rid of it. My prediction is that when Microsoft finally goes down the drain (or to the Great Blagosphere in the Sky, or wherever), it'll be because the Registry has become so bloated and unmanageable that it's impossible to make a next edition of Windows. (If they're smart about it, they'll probably scrap the whole affair just before that time, and make a better system.)

aldimond wrote:Windows seems to lack a sense of humor or fun, and it's hard exactly to pin a finger on what that means and why it is, but I think it just feels like the product of bureaucracy, rather than passionate engineering.


Very well put. I've never thought of it that way, but it makes complete and total sense.
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Postby aldimond » Fri Apr 27, 2007 3:10 am UTC

Yeah. The fighting Viacom thing. As long as we're making Microsoft comparisons, if Microsoft actually went to bat for its users like that they'd have a dramatically different public image. They could have publicly raked Sony over the coals for the rootkit thing, for example, and they didn't.

The problem with Microsoft is that it doesn't have to care about its users anymore. It has more to gain making corporate deals. Google, at least in the Viacom case, wants the same outcome that its users do. Google is raking in the dough from people watching pirated video on YouTube, and if it wasn't for that they would not be fighting. But trying to call corporations good or evil is like trying to judge other people by your own personal moral standards. You'll never get a coherent result. All that matters to a corporation is profitable or unprofitable. Maybe profit now vs. profit later in some cases. Microsoft and Google each appear more evil the more powerful they are, because the more powerful they are the less their interests will have to align with their users for them to survive.
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Postby d3adf001 » Fri Apr 27, 2007 3:28 am UTC

the bottom line is microsoft is a monopoly. they dont price according to demand, they dont care about the customers, are anticompetitive, and have >90% market share.

i refuse to buy or use (except for file formants because noone accepts .odt) anything that has to do with windows or requires windows

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Postby TheTankengine » Fri Apr 27, 2007 4:08 am UTC

d3adf001 wrote:the bottom line is microsoft is a monopoly. they dont price according to demand, they dont care about the customers, are anticompetitive, and have >90% market share.

i refuse to buy or use (except for file formants because noone accepts .odt) anything that has to do with windows or requires windows


Do you use something other than microsoft's software? Does a community of millions exist to facilitate the use of software other than microsoft's? Can the average home user switch away from microsoft's software for free of charge and incur little to no loss (or possibly an increase) in useability?

MS is not a monopoly. Just a very large company with excellent marketing and "good enough" software.
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Postby aldimond » Fri Apr 27, 2007 4:18 am UTC

I agree the Microsoft isn't a monopoly in the traditional sense of the railroad and oil monopolies that owned all of the means of production in industries with high barriers to entry. Software has a very low barrier to entry as long as there are cheap and free development tools, despite the efforts of entrenched companies to raise that bar through means technical (DRM) and legal (the patent system).

It is true that at the moment Microsoft is well entrenched and isn't particularly accountable to its customers. I think that Google, being basically in the ratings business, has to be more careful about its public image, and they've done a pretty good job of crafting it so far. Microsoft has to be more accountable than a true monopoly, though, because so much of the rest of the industry, fearful of Microsoft's power, is working to make Linux an alternative.
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Postby TheTankengine » Fri Apr 27, 2007 4:40 am UTC

To me, a monopoly has very little competition. MS and Google both have a LOT of competition. So that is basically where I stand.


My attitude towards this issue is probably intensified by two recent occurrences. The first one is that a couple weeks ago, I finally got Debian to be fully functional on my desktop, so i wiped Windows and haven't looked back. It was frustrating because I was forced to use Windows for months, due to certain hardware incompatibilities (JMicron IDE controller) with the linux kernel (fixed as of 2.6.18+), and it seemed like everyday the operating system was getting less and less reliable for me, and doing things differently than my personal preference. I am still amazed that a huge group of people that have nothing to do with me, and to whom I did not contribute a single cent (the only thing I contributed was a couple bug reports and logs, actually) were able to solve a problem and allow me to freely use their work. I suppose it is a feeling of immense gratitude. :lol:

The other was watching Revolution OS. An awesome documentary with RMS, Eric S. Raymond, Linus Torvalds and others. BTW, the movie is hosted in it entirety on Google Video. You can watch it here. (The last 20 minutes or so awkwardly focuses on the stock prices of Red Hat and VA Linux Systems, but the rest of it is an excellent story and very well put together.)
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Postby Toeofdoom » Fri Apr 27, 2007 4:41 am UTC

Google isn't too evil. it's useful and it makes alot of money.

And also, vista does have a number of upgrades over XP other than graphics, it seems much better at explaining what its doing and more stable (I haven't had a single lockup, and only a few program crashes in a month or so) I haven't found any downsides over xp other than slightly higher memory usage.
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Postby Pebbles » Fri Apr 27, 2007 5:15 am UTC

Castaway wrote:Google's got morals. I don't think Microsoft really cares anymore. Also, Microsoft isn't even a verb yet.


hahahah!
I'd also like to note that I enjoy google image search.
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Postby elminster » Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:55 am UTC

While i agree microsoft isnt technically a monopoly, it sure as hell tried to be.
Theres been quite a number of cases about this... for example media player being shipped as standard, was ruled to be a monopoly tactic, and they paid a whopping €497.2 million fine with an additional €280.5 million for not complying.
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Postby TheTankengine » Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:40 am UTC

elminster wrote:€497.2 million fine with an additional €280.5 million for not complying.


Chump change. They just made almost $5 billion last quarter.


Last fucking quarter.
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Postby Andrew » Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:16 pm UTC

fjafjan wrote:Anyhow, google are evil in a number of fashions, as nearly all major companies are evil, partly because of the very 1984 style they market, you sell your privacy for "free" things. Ofcourse some people here will argue that money is god, and that our desire for privacy is hopelessly outdated or whatever, but I like corporations not knowing everything about me, or having that informaiton sold wihtout me knowing it. But oh that is just pinko me. The Brain just wants to conquor the world :P


That's crazy.

I am happy to let Google look after my details in exchange for awesome email and stuff, so I do. You apparently are not, but that's okay. Maybe you are happy to get your email from someone else in exchange for money. You do that. I'll do my thing. I don't see how that hurts you at all. If you don't think the product is worth the price, don't "buy" it. Nobody's forcing you.

The weirdos at gmailistoocreepy seem to think it's a problem that GMail archives mail sent to GMail accounts. This is because they're morons. All email providers have the capability do this -- as well as a few intermediary servers along the chain. At least Google are honest about it.

This is the problem I have with the anti-Google brigade: almost all the bad stuff I've heard about Google has been "look, they have the capability to do such-and-such a horrid thing to us!" well so what? I have the capability to shoot you in the head. But why the hell would I? It doesn't make me "evil" or "creepy".

the bottom line is microsoft is a monopoly. they dont price according to demand, they dont care about the customers, are anticompetitive, and have >90% market share.

This is correct and anyone who argues with it is wrong.

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TheTankengine
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Postby TheTankengine » Fri Apr 27, 2007 3:07 pm UTC

Andrew wrote:
the bottom line is microsoft is a monopoly. they dont price according to demand, they dont care about the customers, are anticompetitive, and have >90% market share.

This is correct and anyone who argues with it is wrong.


Why am I wrong?
I wrote:a monopoly has very little competition. MS and Google both have a LOT of competition.

I fail to see the err in my logic.

Perhaps our only disagreement is our personal definitions of "monopoly"
    Me - A monopoly has no competition. Both companies have competition. Not monopolies

    You - A monopoly controls the market and goes beyond "fair" (as determined by you) business practices. Both companies do this. Monopolies

I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree.
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Postby toysbfun » Fri Apr 27, 2007 3:51 pm UTC

Sure Google has done some bad things, like censoring China, but is Google evil? I'd say no. However its great power gives it the potential for great evil, which I believe is what people fear.

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Postby Spectre » Fri Apr 27, 2007 6:25 pm UTC

I'm a pretty unrepentant Google zealot myself, and I'm quite happy with them owning my soul for now.

They've made several aspects of my life significantly better, for free. Until I see evidence that they're eating babies or committing genocide somewhere on Earth, then I'm likely to remain as happy under their reign of terror.
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Postby Vaniver » Fri Apr 27, 2007 6:45 pm UTC

What does Google know about me that I don't want them to know?
Keep in mind that, if you use Gmail, your email archives are only protected by federal privacy laws for 90 days. After that, you're just trusting Google.

Anyhow, google are evil in a number of fashions, as nearly all major companies are evil, partly because of the very 1984 style they market, you sell your privacy for "free" things.
Voluntary lack of privacy equals totalitarian lack of privacy? I don't see why I never thought that before.
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Postby LE4dGOLEM » Fri Apr 27, 2007 6:53 pm UTC

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Postby bbctol » Fri Apr 27, 2007 7:55 pm UTC

Anyhow, google are evil in a number of fashions, as nearly all major companies are evil, partly because of the very 1984 style they market, you sell your privacy for "free" things.


What's wrong with that? They take a minimal amount of privacy, and give you something. That's like saying Ford is evil because they take your money and give you cars. If they stole your money and shoved car keys into your hands that wold be immoral.

And they really don't take any privacy anyway.

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Postby space_raptor » Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:24 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:
What does Google know about me that I don't want them to know?
Keep in mind that, if you use Gmail, your email archives are only protected by federal privacy laws for 90 days. After that, you're just trusting Google.

Kind of. I'm trusting Google not to have some incredibly OCD person go through a million people's e-mails looking for something that, maybe, with a lot of extra work and computer hacking, could come up with some personal information about me. Oh noes. I would argue that the actual risk of someone finding out anything useful to them about me in this way is miniscule.
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Postby Spectre » Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:15 pm UTC

I know a lot of people say this, but I think privacy is a bit of a misleading concept anyways.

One look at this board goes that much further in illustrating that point. We've got threads in here which segment everyone based on age, location, fetish, reading preferences, eating preferences, etc, etc, etc.

Sure we don't have everyone's CC, PIN, SIN, or SS number, but people give away those things on a daily basis when they sign up for loyalty programs, low-interest credit cards, and slews of other things.

I also note that there GOBS of people (including myself) who do one thing that blows me away to this day. You go into a restaurant, you pay for a meal, and then you hand over your credit card to a complete stranger who disappears into another room with it, comes back a little later, and gets you to sign something. [Wiggum]myehhh, where's your privacy now?![/wiggum]

I really do believe that there WILL become a time when we're going to be forced to accept that fact that the majority of what makes us 'us' (in terms of information and identity) is going to be much more available for general consumption. Part and parcel of that however, is going to involve becoming a lot smarter about a) what we choose to expose and b) what consequences we're willing to accept as a result of that exposure.

I could say more, but I need to start my Friday night. :) Will expand as needed over the weekend.
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