How many would it take?

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doc leech
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Re: How many would it take?

Postby doc leech » Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:36 pm UTC

Probably Human wrote:I help out at a child care center sometimes, so I already know the answer to this. 5, little children can be stupidly determined, they have grip like a monkeys, and they BITE.


My spin on this is that they may be stupidly determined... until the first blow lands. Likewise, while they may bite, they'll only bite once. This is far more a matter of endurance than anything else, be it how easy it is to take one out or how hard they bite you. Honestly, I think I could take out about one per second with fists for about a minute or two, then I'd be chum. It doesn't take long to hit someone full force, switch 3" over to the next target and repeat. I'm no he-man, but I'm pretty sure the kid would be down for good from one full force hit to the face.

I don't think this is an overestimation. I'm pretty sure I haven't become weaker with age, but there's only one way to find out.
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Re: How many would it take?

Postby Ramses IV » Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:55 pm UTC

doc leech wrote:
Probably Human wrote:I help out at a child care center sometimes, so I already know the answer to this. 5, little children can be stupidly determined, they have grip like a monkeys, and they BITE.


My spin on this is that they may be stupidly determined... until the first blow lands.


I think we had decided that these children were completely focused on killing you, with everything they have. They will not stop, or slow down, or anything.

doc leech wrote:Likewise, while they may bite, they'll only bite once. This is far more a matter of endurance than anything else, be it how easy it is to take one out or how hard they bite you. Honestly, I think I could take out about one per second with fists for about a minute or two, then I'd be chum.

Are you an idiot? Sorry, but really: one per second? You could kill a 5 year old in one second, with your fist? I find that hard to believe. And you are forgetting the mob tactics of these children. You won't be able to take them one at a time like that. As you hit one, there's already 5 more on your back, 3 on your legs, and another big group completely surrounding you. If you let yourself get in the middle of this swarm, you are dead.

doc leech wrote:It doesn't take long to hit someone full force, switch 3" over to the next target and repeat. I'm no he-man, but I'm pretty sure the kid would be down for good from one full force hit to the face.


You're wrong. One hit? No. This is a gross mis-calculation.

doc leech wrote:I don't think this is an overestimation. I'm pretty sure I haven't become weaker with age, but there's only one way to find out.
/starts fishy looking babysitting dojo


That is an overestimation of your abilities. No, you haven't become weaker with age, but there's an infinite number of these guys.
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Re: How many would it take?

Postby Mo0man » Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:32 pm UTC

Oh, plus, you should realize boxers train fists and wrists and wear gloves for a very good reason: Bones are hard.
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Re: How many would it take?

Postby doc leech » Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:29 pm UTC

Ramses IV wrote:I think we had decided that these children were completely focused on killing you, with everything they have. They will not stop, or slow down, or anything.


The implication was that they would be dead, not slowed.

Ramses IV wrote:Are you an idiot? Sorry, but really: one per second? You could kill a 5 year old in one second, with your fist? I find that hard to believe.


Ok, so you understood the implication but decided to make your first comment anyway. Got it. :roll:

I am an idiot, yes, thank you kind sir... you are truly a scholar and a gentleman! Also, please say what you mean and mean what you say. You don't sound genuinely sorry, so please don't try to claim to be.

Ramses IV wrote:And you are forgetting the mob tactics of these children. You won't be able to take them one at a time like that. As you hit one, there's already 5 more on your back, 3 on your legs, and another big group completely surrounding you. If you let yourself get in the middle of this swarm, you are dead.


My fault! I forgot about all of those 5 year old tactical gurus. Please forgive me!!

Anyway, the mob tactic is exactly why I thought it would take very little time to go from one to the next. I don't need to use a fist every time, either. I have lots of hard parts.

Ramses IV wrote:You're wrong. One hit? No. This is a gross mis-calculation.


Why? Is one hit, with gloves on, not enough to break an adults nose? What would that do to what is essentially an infant?
And I'll have you know that calculations never came into this sir! But if you could point folks to this study that you're privy to which deals with the beating of 5 year olds and the relevant math behind it, I'd be much obliged.

Ramses IV wrote:That is an overestimation of your abilities. No, you haven't become weaker with age, but there's an infinite number of these guys.


And that would be why I said I would last one to two minutes. I do like how you already know my abilities, though. That's rather amazing!

While I would like to continue this constructive discussion with you, I fear you are the winner for the first person on my ignore list! Huzzah!

Also, chill out a bit. Just cause it's the internet and folks can't physically get to you doesn't mean it's kosher to be rude to strangers.
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Re: How many would it take?

Postby BlackSails » Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:36 pm UTC

Why use fists? The average five year old is just the right high for a vertical knee to the face.

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Re: How many would it take?

Postby ParanoidAndroid » Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:54 pm UTC

doc leech wrote:
Ramses IV wrote:You're wrong. One hit? No. This is a gross mis-calculation.


Why? Is one hit, with gloves on, not enough to break an adults nose? What would that do to what is essentially an infant?
And I'll have you know that calculations never came into this sir! But if you could point folks to this study that you're privy to which deals with the beating of 5 year olds and the relevant math behind it, I'd be much obliged.


A broken nose is, well, a broken nose. Yes, it's extremely painful and messy, but it's hardly life threatening. The pain alone is probably enough to take an adult out of a fight, but it's nothing than can't be fixed rather simply. Even a five year old's skull is pretty darn hard. They aren't essentially infants; the difference is huge. Kids can survive things much more damaging than a punch to the face. A one hit kill is certainly possible, but it's very unlikely. It's not even guaranteed to be a knockout. Blunt force trauma to hard bones is not the best strategy. You're more likely to get a kill by damaging some squishy vital organs in the solar plexus area. However, going from on your feet fighting to on the floor dead is very rare, even considering age. Realistically, the best method is to take an one out of the fight by incapacitating it (knockout or stunning, vulnerable areas like ears, eyes, and groin, or a quick kick to the knee) and executing a basic finishing move, such as a stomp, throat blow, or neck break. Now, these take a little time, so they would have to be done opportunistically. I would recommend a quick stomp to the solar plexus, face, or throat. Repeat as necessary and when possible.

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Re: How many would it take?

Postby doc leech » Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:03 pm UTC

I figured the back of the head cracking on the floor would be the fatal aspect of it, but if that doesn't do it either, my one second plan is out the window. It amazes me that the human body can be both incredibly resilient and incredible fragile concurrently.

What about that whole shoving-the-nose-bone-into-the-brain thing? Is that true? Would it even be possible from straight on punches or would they need to bring their own stilts?

*sigh* So much work... what we need here is some kind of atomic powered automatic killing machine.
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Re: How many would it take?

Postby BlackSails » Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:06 pm UTC

doc leech wrote:What about that whole shoving-the-nose-bone-into-the-brain thing? Is that true?


No, it is not.

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Re: How many would it take?

Postby ParanoidAndroid » Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:19 pm UTC

BlackSails wrote:Why use fists? The average five year old is just the right high for a vertical knee to the face.


True, but there are disadvantages. First, one of your greatest advantages is your superior range. Maintaining your range dominance is paramount. Knees should only be used if you are forced into a short range confrontation. They would have to be pretty close for it to work. You'd be striking one person, but you'd also be immobile, standing on one leg, and probably surrounded by people with lower centers of gravity who are trying to knock you over. Also, knees are most effective in conjunction with grabs and countering someone else's forward momentum. If a kid rushes you or tries to grab you, a knee could work very well. However, I still favor quick, low kicks (especially front kicks). You can stay mobile, dominate with superior range, attack kneecaps, groins, and stomach areas, and fend them off. Front kicks have incredible knockback power even if not much effort is exerted. It counters rushes and leaves enemies vulnerable to finishing moves.

The key is to create one vs. one or one vs. few situations. They'll want one vs. many. Try to create one vs. one situations. Work on forcing them to come at you one at a time or in a line (Yes, this is possible. Try to keep moving so that your enemies are in a line from your perspective). Do not get surrounded. Keep them off balance. Use off balance people against on balance people. This is a basic aikido technique. Basically, throw them at each other. Get one off balance, then push him into another. Make them crowd each other.

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Re: How many would it take?

Postby studyinserendipity » Wed Jul 30, 2008 11:05 pm UTC

I'm concerned about the talk centering around punching. Most 5-year-olds are short, and I'm thinking that (for most of us anyways) in order to get off a good punch to the face, we'd have to be on our knees or crouched (especially considering that most young children hell-bent on hurting someone tuck their heads into their chests). I don't know about anyone else, but both of these positions seem pretty unstable to me. Although I suppose crouching has its benefits, provided your balance and core strength is superb.
Hmm, that makes me wonder if maybe getting really low and trying to make them crawl on you. Once you have a couple, you could whip yourself up and backwards, thereby crushing a few of them and (hopefully) not breaking your own spine. This would probably only work if you can turtle up real tight to avoid kicks to soft flesh and have a strong enough base to actually whip back with at least 3 or 4 gathered on top of you. Also, I agree with ParanoidAndroid that keeping range-dominance is important.
I think I'd prefer a sweep and stomp technique. It wouldn't work for super-long, but at least as an opening move, a sweep would keep them at a distance and potentially expose areas of weakness (stomach, chest, face) and put those vulnerable areas at (arguably) our strongest weapons - stomping feet. I think this plan is particularly effective because it uses both our taller size and greater weight to our advantage. But again, I don't think that could work for very long. Also, I'm not sure how effective sweeps are against kids.
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Re: How many would it take?

Postby FrailAndBedazzled » Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:41 am UTC

Depends for me. I have a high pain tolerance, no appreciation for five year olds, and a low level of patience. So if I'm wearing my boots of stompitude, it'd take a lot. If, however, I am wearing any of my other shoes, it would not take many at all. Maybe like five.
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Re: How many would it take?

Postby dracharys » Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:05 am UTC

Ten years ago it took about six or seven five year olds to bring me down, three or four on my legs and then the rest started kicking me as soon as I fell over (I hate children). Since then I've grown a fair bit so I'm hoping it'd be at least twice my previous record.
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Re: How many would it take?

Postby Mo0man » Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:13 am UTC

Wait... did it TAKE six or seven, or was it overkill? Cause that may end up to be important...
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Re: How many would it take?

Postby Sheo » Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:14 am UTC

FrailAndBedazzled wrote:Depends for me. I have a high pain tolerance, no appreciation for five year olds, and a low level of patience. So if I'm wearing my boots of stompitude, it'd take a lot. If, however, I am wearing any of my other shoes, it would not take many at all. Maybe like five.


Same deal here for the most part. I usually wear a pair of boots that weighs 3.5 lbs. a pop due to being largely metal reinforced, if I can bring those in with me there will be blood.
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Re: How many would it take?

Postby wubrgamer » Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:21 am UTC

Probably just a few...

I can't hit them...I just don't have it in me...

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Re: How many would it take?

Postby ParanoidAndroid » Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:27 am UTC

studyinserendipity wrote:Hmm, that makes me wonder if maybe getting really low and trying to make them crawl on you. Once you have a couple, you could whip yourself up and backwards, thereby crushing a few of them and (hopefully) not breaking your own spine. This would probably only work if you can turtle up real tight to avoid kicks to soft flesh and have a strong enough base to actually whip back with at least 3 or 4 gathered on top of you.


Considering that the average five year old is around 50-60 lbs., this would be ineffecient. Three or four one top of you would easily be between 150 to 240 lbs. Also, there would be nothing to stop 8 or 9 of them to jump on you at once. It wouldn't work.

Also, I agree with ParanoidAndroid that keeping range-dominance is important. I think I'd prefer a sweep and stomp technique. It wouldn't work for super-long, but at least as an opening move, a sweep would keep them at a distance and potentially expose areas of weakness (stomach, chest, face) and put those vulnerable areas at (arguably) our strongest weapons - stomping feet. I think this plan is particularly effective because it uses both our taller size and greater weight to our advantage. But again, I don't think that could work for very long. Also, I'm not sure how effective sweeps are against kids.


Sweeps are great for knocking over taller enemies, sure. However, you'd have to get too low, it does too little damage, and it takes too long to perform. Sweeps also leave you much more off balance than a low, quick kick You lose your momentum and you can't put your full body weight into it. The front kick is considered one of the most basic and powerful self-defense techniques in martial arts. You don't need to sweep at all, unless the situation call for it. A front leg roundhouse kick to the knee would be much faster, cause considerable pain, and send your opponent to the floor.

Regarding punches...yes, most punches would have to be angled downwards, making them harder to land in a vital area. However, though this seems to be a disadvantage, it can be used in your favor. Their center of gravity is very low, which is bad for us in many ways. The easiest way to knock someone down is to exploit their center of gravity. Put your hand under someone's chin and push the chin up and back. It will at least be enough to make them stumble backwards. A violent enough shove, hammer fist, or palm strike to the side or front area of the head should be enough to send them sprawling.

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Re: How many would it take?

Postby dracharys » Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:28 am UTC

Mo0man wrote:Wait... did it TAKE six or seven, or was it overkill? Cause that may end up to be important...

3 or 4 to actually get me on the ground in the first place, but 6 or 7 to keep me down. That time I was just trying to get away, but if I'm allowed to hurt them I think I can do better. :D
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Re: How many would it take?

Postby FrailAndBedazzled » Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:36 am UTC

Sheo wrote:
FrailAndBedazzled wrote:Depends for me. I have a high pain tolerance, no appreciation for five year olds, and a low level of patience. So if I'm wearing my boots of stompitude, it'd take a lot. If, however, I am wearing any of my other shoes, it would not take many at all. Maybe like five.


Same deal here for the most part. I usually wear a pair of boots that weighs 3.5 lbs. a pop due to being largely metal reinforced, if I can bring those in with me there will be blood.

I think we should team up against them. Four steel-reinforced boots can take on legions of five year olds. We shall be invincible.
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Re: How many would it take?

Postby Megatriorchis » Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:44 am UTC

If there are two or three 5-year-olds, then I can take them easily. There wouldn't be much of a fight. Four 5-year-olds have a pretty good chance against me; but if I'm determined enough, I would definitely win.

If there are five of them, and if they put up a really good fight, then they will easily defeat me. If I fought them one-bye-one, I would probably beat all of them if I got a little break time in between fights. But if I had to take them all at once, then I'm shit out of luck.

If I had to fight more than 5, then I would just let them wear themselves out and then beat them.
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Re: How many would it take?

Postby Rippy » Thu Jul 31, 2008 4:41 am UTC

doc leech wrote:[most sarcastic, bitter rebuttal ever to what Ramses said]

Don't turn this forum into 4chan please. While Ramses did have a bit of a provoking tone there, many of his points were essentially valid, and such a reply (particularly the "ignore list" comment) was uncalled for. kthxbai

Aaanyway, it just occured to me: what about opportunistic tripping moves? Basically putting your foot out beside the child and pushing them overtop of it (a basic Judo move).

Advantages:
- It's easy to push a child over, and you're not at too much of a disadvantage even if they manage to cling onto your hand/arm as you knock them down
- Can easily be followed up with a stomp, since you have forward momentum already when pushing the child over

Disadvantages:
- Kind of slow, so cannot be used amid a swarm
- As such, can't really be your main method of execution

I still think it's a good idea, though, because it's the most energy efficient way of setting the child up for a finishing move. Another basic Judo move that could be useful is the over-the-shoulder fling (don't know the real name), where you grab them by the arms, turn 180 degrees and fling them over your shoulder. So if you can't get one off your arms, just fling them!

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Re: How many would it take?

Postby Megatriorchis » Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:00 am UTC

@ Rippy: Yeah, tripping would work well. Falling on their faces would break their spirits, and it would be easier to beat them. But it could go against you and make them more angry and ready to fight. You might not need the stomp if they fall on their face and start crying their eyes out.

(I've learned over the years that falling makes little kids cry.)
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Re: How many would it take?

Postby ParanoidAndroid » Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:01 am UTC

Rippy wrote:Aaanyway, it just occured to me: what about opportunistic tripping moves? Basically putting your foot out beside the child and pushing them overtop of it (a basic Judo move).

Advantages:
- It's easy to push a child over, and you're not at too much of a disadvantage even if they manage to cling onto your hand/arm as you knock them down
- Can easily be followed up with a stomp, since you have forward momentum already when pushing the child over

Disadvantages:
- Kind of slow, so cannot be used amid a swarm
- As such, can't really be your main method of execution


Actually, it can be performed fairly quickly. But yeah, relative to a punch it's slow. Throws can be very effective during a swarm type attack. Grab one and throw it into the crowd. Suddenly, you've distracted multiple enemies as they try to get out of the way and possibly knocked a few off balance as the other goes down. Done right, it can break up a rush like a bowling ball against pins.

I still think it's a good idea, though, because it's the most energy efficient way of setting the child up for a finishing move. Another basic Judo move that could be useful is the over-the-shoulder fling (don't know the real name), where you grab them by the arms, turn 180 degrees and fling them over your shoulder. So if you can't get one off your arms, just fling them!


The over the shoulder throw works so well because of the center of gravity. When performing the throw, you use your shoulder and their arm as a lever. The key to the throw is to lower your center of gravity below your opponent's so you can throw him without relying on brute strength. It's intended for people roughly your height and works better on taller enemies than short one. If their center of gravity is below your own, you'll end up using your back muscles and risk straining something. In order to get a kid over your shoulder, you'd have to lift him up with your own strength rather than use his momentum and leverage, defeating the point of the throw.

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Re: How many would it take?

Postby BlackSails » Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:26 am UTC

You could just run around doing osoto-gari on the kids and then stomping their faces in.

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Re: How many would it take?

Postby ParanoidAndroid » Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:35 am UTC

^True, but it would work best in a 1v1 situation. It's an excellent takedown, but it sort of lacks the whole crowd control aspects of some other throws. Heh, it's still great.

Or we could all just learn to fight like Batman...

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Re: How many would it take?

Postby benjhuey » Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:50 am UTC

I was thinking, if they started to close in, couldn't you snap the neck of one quick and then use its body as a flail of sorts (assuming you have enough strength to provide adequate momentum to its lifeless mass)? Maybe a spin attack to push the others back?
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Re: How many would it take?

Postby ParanoidAndroid » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:15 am UTC

benjhuey wrote:I was thinking, if they started to close in, couldn't you snap the neck of one quick and then use its body as a flail of sorts (assuming you have enough strength to provide adequate momentum to its lifeless mass)? Maybe a spin attack to push the others back?


Yeesh, that would be cumbersome. It would wear you out quickly. Plus, building momentum by spinning could leave one rather dizzy.

wubrgamer wrote:Probably just a few...

I can't hit them...I just don't have it in me...


I just assumed that something went dreadfully wrong with the Holodeck.

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Re: How many would it take?

Postby doc leech » Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:17 pm UTC

Rippy wrote:[most sarcastic, bitter rebuttal ever to what Ramses said]
Don't turn this forum into 4chan please. While Ramses did have a bit of a provoking tone there, many of his points were essentially valid, and such a reply (particularly the "ignore list" comment) was uncalled for. kthxbai


Yes it was a bit bitter, wasn't it? Tis how I feel about those types of actions, though.

I'm not sure what 4chan is, but I take it it's a bad thing. I'm really not a (complete) asshole, just a joe who doesn't like being called names for making entirely SILLY statements in a entirely SILLY topic. I'd rather not deal with that kind of stuff or with those types of people, what with wasting time replying & getting all worked up. Honestly, this is the first forum I've seen that has such a low occurrence of it (hence my actually posting). That said, I'm not sure why the ignore list thing is uncalled for, I mean, isn't that the purpose of it? I've not used one before and I was not aware that it was so despised. I don't want to see posts from folks who act as such, so this is the tool to use, right? Hell, I'm sure I'm on a number of ignore lists already :P

Anywho, I appreciate you voicing your concerns in an adult manner, and I apologize for any disruption. I will try to keep my trap shut.
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Re: How many would it take?

Postby BlackSails » Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:16 pm UTC

ParanoidAndroid wrote:Or we could all just learn to fight like Batman...

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TBH, his style in the movie looked useless unless you have the strength gained from training in a ninja monastery for years.

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Re: How many would it take?

Postby Rippy » Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:31 pm UTC

doc leech wrote:I'm not sure what 4chan is, but I take it it's a bad thing.

The Satan spawn of the Internet.

I don't think a tripping move would actually be that slow, though. Look at this video of judo moves: the trips can be done very quickly if you're good.

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Re: How many would it take?

Postby doc leech » Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:52 pm UTC



Blocked: Tasteless Content

I'll take that as a sign, heh...
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Re: How many would it take?

Postby ParanoidAndroid » Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:45 am UTC

^The G rated version

You may know it as the Internet Hate Machine.

Oh, yeah. I almost forgot. Last night I had a dream that the town was invaded by zombie five year olds )the fast moving kind). O_o

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Re: How many would it take?

Postby doc leech » Fri Aug 01, 2008 2:18 am UTC

Good lord! (I should have thought to wikipedia it, doh)

The good news is, I don't think we're in any danger of me turning anything into that...

Now, the danger of me derailing threads is another matter :P
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Re: How many would it take?

Postby ParanoidAndroid » Fri Aug 01, 2008 2:25 am UTC

Rippy wrote:
doc leech wrote:I'm not sure what 4chan is, but I take it it's a bad thing.

The Satan spawn of the Internet.

I don't think a tripping move would actually be that slow, though. Look at this video of judo moves: the trips can be done very quickly if you're good.


Yeah, it's not that slow. I said that it was slow compared to a punch, though.

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Re: How many would it take?

Postby Probably Human » Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:37 am UTC

It sort of disturbs me that your all putting so much effort into figuring out the best way to kill/disable/knock out 5 year olds :?
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Re: How many would it take?

Postby ParanoidAndroid » Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:09 am UTC

We could make them older midgets with learning disabilities, I suppose.

But when you end up as the star of "Children of the Corn VII: Gymnasium of Doom", don't come crying to us.

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Re: How many would it take?

Postby Phases » Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:21 pm UTC

Probably Human wrote:It sort of disturbs me that your all putting so much effort into figuring out the best way to kill/disable/knock out 5 year olds :?


That's kinda where the underlying hilarity originates from. It's threads like this (and that) that make this corner of the interwebs the wonderful place that it is.
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Re: How many would it take?

Postby nsmjohn » Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:30 pm UTC

Came accross this yesterday and thought it was appropriate.
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Re: How many would it take?

Postby Lt Greatsocks » Fri Aug 22, 2008 3:04 am UTC

nsmjohn wrote:Came accross this yesterday and thought it was appropriate.



Oh my god. That article was so freakin awesome. Best article I've read in days. Thanks for putting it up.
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Re: How many would it take?

Postby demonhats » Fri Aug 22, 2008 3:34 am UTC

I would not last through one. I'd just give up and save myself the exhaustion.

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Re: How many would it take?

Postby ishikiri » Sun Aug 24, 2008 2:20 am UTC

BlackSails wrote:You could just run around doing osoto-gari on the kids and then stomping their faces in.

I don't know what Osoto-gari is (TBH I probably should) but thanks for being the first person to mention the sensible option of face stomping.

Little knock to the face with the knee then stomp once they fall. Quick one to the face or shoulders would keep them down.

I got 33 on the test.

I think a mixture of running, knee & stomps and punches to face would help you keep a good count up whilst avoiding them swarming. I'm also pretty strong so I could easily throw a 5 year old one handed - defend your castle style if you know the game.

Just pretend you're Bowser from Mario 64 really.

Is anyone else taking into account the flooring? If it was on a basketball court then that would soon get slippy with blood.
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