Someone makes an atom for atom exact copy of you

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gbagcn2
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Someone makes an atom for atom exact copy of you

Postby gbagcn2 » Sat Jul 17, 2010 4:33 pm UTC

Say someone knocks you out and makes an exact atom for atom copy of you and anything you may be wearing. When you wake up how do you know if you are the copy or not. Remember that you can't even trust your own memories since they are the same for you and your copy.

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Re: Someone makes an atom for atom exact copy of you

Postby Bakemaster » Sat Jul 17, 2010 4:47 pm UTC

You don't.

We now return to your regularly scheduled ten pages of sophomoric argument between people who have taken a freshman philosophy class and/or read a book that really made them think.
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Re: Someone makes an atom for atom exact copy of you

Postby Dason » Sat Jul 17, 2010 4:59 pm UTC

I believe this answers that question. I believe we're done here.
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Re: Someone makes an atom for atom exact copy of you

Postby Goldstein » Sat Jul 17, 2010 5:01 pm UTC

I think it's fair to say that the guy who knocked us out is screwed.
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Re: Someone makes an atom for atom exact copy of you

Postby a_fuzzyduck » Sat Jul 17, 2010 5:20 pm UTC

well, both the yous' memories would surely diverge at the point the copy is created. Since the two of you can't exist in the same place, wouldn't you be able to use the difference in memories *after* the knockout, along with knowledge of where the procedure was carried out to determine which was which?
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Re: Someone makes an atom for atom exact copy of you

Postby EdgarJPublius » Sat Jul 17, 2010 5:38 pm UTC

Pretty sure we already had a thread like this, the Heisenberg Uncertainty principle prohibits an arbitrarily exact copy from being made, so the duplicate will always be different from the original.
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Re: Someone makes an atom for atom exact copy of you

Postby SlyReaper » Sat Jul 17, 2010 5:42 pm UTC

Yes but it can be close enough that the human mind of the copied person is unable to discern any difference.
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Re: Someone makes an atom for atom exact copy of you

Postby Bakemaster » Sat Jul 17, 2010 5:45 pm UTC

It may also be possible to be close enough a copy that there is no way to scientifically distinguish between the two. Which is to say, if the uncertainty principle prohibits an absolutely identical copy, it also prohibits an absolutely certain identification of the copy from the original based on empirical observation alone.

IOW: MAGIC!?
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Re: Someone makes an atom for atom exact copy of you

Postby The Scyphozoa » Sun Jul 18, 2010 12:35 am UTC

a_fuzzyduck wrote:well, both the yous' memories would surely diverge at the point the copy is created. Since the two of you can't exist in the same place, wouldn't you be able to use the difference in memories *after* the knockout, along with knowledge of where the procedure was carried out to determine which was which?

No, not if the copy was made while you were still knocked out. Then the original and copy would wake up at almost exactly the same time (there might be a slight difference due to them being moved around differently).

However, if you had an implanted GPS device that was extremely accurate, and it was copied too, and someone was watching a map with your dot and, when a second dot appeared, remembered which one was there first, then they would be able to tell which was the original.
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Re: Someone makes an atom for atom exact copy of you

Postby Dason » Sun Jul 18, 2010 12:52 am UTC

The Scyphozoa wrote:However, if you had an implanted GPS device that was extremely accurate, and it was copied too, and someone was watching a map with your dot and, when a second dot appeared, remembered which one was there first, then they would be able to tell which was the original.

Unless of course the clone was made directly on top of you so the GPS wouldn't be able to tell the difference.
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Re: Someone makes an atom for atom exact copy of you

Postby You, sir, name? » Sun Jul 18, 2010 1:06 am UTC

gbagcn2 wrote:Say someone knocks you out and makes an exact atom for atom copy of you and anything you may be wearing. When you wake up how do you know if you are the copy or not. Remember that you can't even trust your own memories since they are the same for you and your copy.


Was there a question in there somewhere...?
I edit my posts a lot and sometimes the words wrong order words appear in sentences get messed up.

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Re: Someone makes an atom for atom exact copy of you

Postby doogly » Sun Jul 18, 2010 1:17 am UTC

Bakemaster wrote:It may also be possible to be close enough a copy that there is no way to scientifically distinguish between the two. Which is to say, if the uncertainty principle prohibits an absolutely identical copy, it also prohibits an absolutely certain identification of the copy from the original based on empirical observation alone.

IOW: MAGIC!?


Not actually true! The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-cloning_theorem is actually more subtle.
The real trick is that quantum level measurements of your body would likely damage you. A lot.
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Re: Someone makes an atom for atom exact copy of you

Postby The Scyphozoa » Sun Jul 18, 2010 1:24 am UTC

Dason wrote:
The Scyphozoa wrote:However, if you had an implanted GPS device that was extremely accurate, and it was copied too, and someone was watching a map with your dot and, when a second dot appeared, remembered which one was there first, then they would be able to tell which was the original.

Unless of course the clone was made directly on top of you so the GPS wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

Okay, then if there were a network of sensors set up in the area able to determine a transmitter's exact location in 3d space.

But, on second thought, that's pretty much the same as someone just watching the cloning,which is far too boring of a solution to be relevant.
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Re: Someone makes an atom for atom exact copy of you

Postby podbaydoor » Sun Jul 18, 2010 1:43 am UTC

Clearly, the only appropriate response is to make out with yourself. Once orgasms have been had, everyone can chill out and not worry about it.

(I'm surprised someone hasn't linked to that already.)
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Re: Someone makes an atom for atom exact copy of you

Postby Amarantha » Sun Jul 18, 2010 1:45 am UTC

I think we'd be too busy making out to bother with wondering about it.

edit: Bah! Ninja'd and didn't even get warned by the post software. But ninja'd by podbaydoor is no shame at all :)
Last edited by Amarantha on Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:47 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Someone makes an atom for atom exact copy of you

Postby Weeks » Sun Jul 18, 2010 1:51 am UTC

You, sir, name? wrote:
gbagcn2 wrote:Say someone knocks you out and makes an exact atom for atom copy of you and anything you may be wearing. When you wake up how do you know if you are the copy or not. Remember that you can't even trust your own memories since they are the same for you and your copy.


Was there a question in there somewhere...?
I believe it's the bolded part.

Also, I'm feeling nice today, so I'll give gbagcn2 a spare ? I had lying around. Please put it to good use.
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Re: Someone makes an atom for atom exact copy of you

Postby The Scyphozoa » Sun Jul 18, 2010 2:16 am UTC

Wait WOAH I didn't even notice it was gbagcn2! It seemed too much like a real question.
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Re: Someone makes an atom for atom exact copy of you

Postby PM 2Ring » Sun Jul 18, 2010 2:31 am UTC

The Scyphozoa wrote:Wait WOAH I didn't even notice it was gbagcn2! It seemed too much like a real question.

Apart from the minor issue that real questions (potentially) have real answers... :)
I guess this is another thread to add to the voluminous collection of threads started by gbagcn2 that he doesn't participate in. In case he is lurking but not posting, he might like to read about the Swampman thought experiment.

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Re: Someone makes an atom for atom exact copy of you

Postby styrofoam » Sun Jul 18, 2010 2:35 am UTC

podbaydoor wrote:Clearly, the only appropriate response is to make out with yourself.

Actually, why not look into getting more copies and building an army to take over the world. *muahahahaha*
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Re: Someone makes an atom for atom exact copy of you

Postby Bakemaster » Sun Jul 18, 2010 7:03 pm UTC

doogly wrote:Not actually true! The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-cloning_theorem is actually more subtle.
The real trick is that quantum level measurements of your body would likely damage you. A lot.

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Re: Someone makes an atom for atom exact copy of you

Postby EdgarJPublius » Mon Jul 19, 2010 2:59 am UTC

The Scyphozoa wrote:Wait WOAH I didn't even notice it was gbagcn2! It seemed too much like a real question.


clearly he is evolving, soon, gbagcn2 will be indistinguishable from a real poster, and on that day, skynet will have won.
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Re: Someone makes an atom for atom exact copy of you

Postby Plasma Man » Mon Jul 19, 2010 11:56 am UTC

Simple. I am whichever one I have self-awareness of being.
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Re: Someone makes an atom for atom exact copy of you

Postby tastelikecoke » Mon Jul 19, 2010 2:31 pm UTC

Skynet is taking interests on cloning, doesn't this ping a lot? Maybe they are consulting the forum about our opinions on their plans. We should be more careful.

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Re: Someone makes an atom for atom exact copy of you

Postby Vyn » Mon Jul 19, 2010 5:55 pm UTC

This is a really easy question actually. I kill the other me. Since the real me is alive, and the other me is dead, that means that I'm the real me as I'm alive and he's dead. Sucks to be him though.
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Re: Someone makes an atom for atom exact copy of you

Postby The Scyphozoa » Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:15 pm UTC

PM 2Ring wrote:
The Scyphozoa wrote:Wait WOAH I didn't even notice it was gbagcn2! It seemed too much like a real question.

Apart from the minor issue that real questions (potentially) have real answers... :)
I guess this is another thread to add to the voluminous collection of threads started by gbagcn2 that he doesn't participate in. In case he is lurking but not posting, he might like to read about the Swampman thought experiment.

Hm, I wonder if that's what actually happened at the end of Battlestar Galactica...
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Re: Someone makes an atom for atom exact copy of you

Postby Dason » Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:25 pm UTC

Vyn wrote:This is a really easy question actually. I kill the other me. Since the real me is alive, and the other me is dead, that means that I'm the real me as I'm alive and he's dead. Sucks to be him though.

I don't really want to keep this conversation going but I just want to point out that that doesn't answer the question at all. Just because one person is dead doesn't mean that the dead person is the clone.
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Re: Someone makes an atom for atom exact copy of you

Postby viscusanima » Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:45 pm UTC

If they are similar, right down to the same atom, that raises another question: would they be the same person? As in, would you consciously be both people? I don't think I'm making sense.

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Re: Someone makes an atom for atom exact copy of you

Postby Weeks » Tue Jul 20, 2010 4:37 pm UTC

viscusanima wrote:If they are similar, right down to the same atom, that raises another question: would they be the same person? As in, would you consciously be both people? I don't think I'm making sense.
You mean like...owning two bodies? ...
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Re: Someone makes an atom for atom exact copy of you

Postby Dason » Tue Jul 20, 2010 5:00 pm UTC

viscusanima wrote:If they are similar, right down to the same atom, that raises another question: would they be the same person? As in, would you consciously be both people? I don't think I'm making sense.

It's not the "same" atoms though. They're the same type of atoms. If I have two perfectly pure samples of iron and they both are exactly 1 gram if we go by your logic then they're the same sample. But clearly I can toss one in the air and the other one won't just jump into the air as well so they aren't the same sample. I don't see what difference there would be for a person.
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Re: Someone makes an atom for atom exact copy of you

Postby a_fuzzyduck » Tue Jul 20, 2010 5:12 pm UTC

Dason wrote:
Vyn wrote:This is a really easy question actually. I kill the other me. Since the real me is alive, and the other me is dead, that means that I'm the real me as I'm alive and he's dead. Sucks to be him though.

I don't really want to keep this conversation going but I just want to point out that that doesn't answer the question at all. Just because one person is dead doesn't mean that the dead person is the clone.


How would you kill a completely perfect copy? Wouldn't he be thinking that he's the real one and be trying to kill the other one? And both being physically identical, that's not exactly a first-round KO of a fight...
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Re: Someone makes an atom for atom exact copy of you

Postby Dave_Wise » Tue Jul 20, 2010 5:16 pm UTC

We make out. Simples.
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Re: Someone makes an atom for atom exact copy of you

Postby viscusanima » Tue Jul 20, 2010 5:19 pm UTC

Dason wrote:
viscusanima wrote:If they are similar, right down to the same atom, that raises another question: would they be the same person? As in, would you consciously be both people? I don't think I'm making sense.

It's not the "same" atoms though. They're the same type of atoms. If I have two perfectly pure samples of iron and they both are exactly 1 gram if we go by your logic then they're the same sample. But clearly I can toss one in the air and the other one won't just jump into the air as well so they aren't the same sample. I don't see what difference there would be for a person.


Yeah, good point. Sorry, wasn't thinking very well.

On the other hand, if your consciousness is made up of one particular configuration of atoms, and two people own that same exact configuration type, then my previous question might be more valid?

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Re: Someone makes an atom for atom exact copy of you

Postby Dason » Tue Jul 20, 2010 5:20 pm UTC

a_fuzzyduck wrote:
Dason wrote:
Vyn wrote:This is a really easy question actually. I kill the other me. Since the real me is alive, and the other me is dead, that means that I'm the real me as I'm alive and he's dead. Sucks to be him though.

I don't really want to keep this conversation going but I just want to point out that that doesn't answer the question at all. Just because one person is dead doesn't mean that the dead person is the clone.


How would you kill a completely perfect copy? Wouldn't he be thinking that he's the real one and be trying to kill the other one? And both being physically identical, that's not exactly a first-round KO of a fight...

They're not in the same exact location so their circumstances are slightly different. So it's definitely possible. If you programmed a computer game and created two identical people in the game which reacted to everything in exactly the same way... but you placed them in different locations then they have access to different items which could be used to kill each other. Take an extreme example where you place one right next to a gun and the other right next to a very lovely chicken dinner. If they want to kill each other then the person more near the gun has an extreme advantage.
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Re: Someone makes an atom for atom exact copy of you

Postby a_fuzzyduck » Tue Jul 20, 2010 6:21 pm UTC

Dason wrote:
a_fuzzyduck wrote:
Dason wrote:
Vyn wrote:This is a really easy question actually. I kill the other me. Since the real me is alive, and the other me is dead, that means that I'm the real me as I'm alive and he's dead. Sucks to be him though.

I don't really want to keep this conversation going but I just want to point out that that doesn't answer the question at all. Just because one person is dead doesn't mean that the dead person is the clone.


How would you kill a completely perfect copy? Wouldn't he be thinking that he's the real one and be trying to kill the other one? And both being physically identical, that's not exactly a first-round KO of a fight...

They're not in the same exact location so their circumstances are slightly different. So it's definitely possible. If you programmed a computer game and created two identical people in the game which reacted to everything in exactly the same way... but you placed them in different locations then they have access to different items which could be used to kill each other. Take an extreme example where you place one right next to a gun and the other right next to a very lovely chicken dinner. If they want to kill each other then the person more near the gun has an extreme advantage.


But then you might be able to work out which was which from both the environment and probable (if not actual) motives of the creator
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Re: Someone makes an atom for atom exact copy of you

Postby Mr. Mack » Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:15 pm UTC

I'm still confused by the original premise. Why would someone with the technology to make an exact copy of someone do so to me, of all people? Isn't there a scientist or doctor or something who the world actually could use more of? Is there some skill I'm supposed to develop that the world needs more of? Is one of me supposed to become a writer while the other becomes a chemist? Is it just an experiment to make me more self-reflective so I can see what I'm really like as a person?
Assuming I was chosen at random, I'd probably just have one of me grow a beard while the other shaves in order to see which actually looks better, because I'm getting mixed comments from others. The whole ontological crisis would probably be solved by the fact that both I, and by extension, my clone (or the guy I was cloned from), would be of the opinion that it's best not to get too worked up over the unknowable. Then, beer and video games.

As for the original question. I'd say that if we're both the exact same all the way down, then we're both the original. The difference is that where there used to be only one original me, there are now two. Unless some sort of time-fiddling is possible for finding the chronological original.

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Re: Someone makes an atom for atom exact copy of you

Postby PM 2Ring » Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:43 pm UTC

viscusanima wrote:If they are similar, right down to the same atom, that raises another question: would they be the same person? As in, would you consciously be both people? I don't think I'm making sense.

I suspect that the two entities would feel a strong bond, but I don't think that they would be in a state of shared consciousness, since I don't believe in telepathy. But hey, I could be wrong. And we don't as yet have a good theory of what consciousness actually is, or how the sense of subjective experience arises.

We may get insights into such questions when (if) we develop Artificial Intelligence, though. AI may never happen, but I believe that it is likely that we will achieve it one day, maybe in the not too distant future, whereas making atom-perfect copies of people is far more unlikely. And if we want to do this properly, it's not just a matter of copying the atoms' positions of the original, the atoms also have to be in the same quantum state, and as has been pointed out, that's impossible according to the Heisenberg uncertainty principle.

I see that there are over 30 replies to this thread but the OP hasn't returned...

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Re: Someone makes an atom for atom exact copy of you

Postby meatyochre » Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:03 pm UTC

In the time it would take to scan every atom of my body, the first atoms they scanned may have changed (skin sloughage, digestion, neurotransmitters hippityhopping around, etc).

And a clone without the same ham and cheese sandwich in its stomach as me can hardly be called a clone at all.

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Re: Someone makes an atom for atom exact copy of you

Postby The Scyphozoa » Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:05 am UTC

Actually, that's true. Literally NOTHING can happen "instantly". I know because someone on Nova said something like that.

But, seriously, yeah, in order for something to change, in this case, for a clone to come into existence, time must pass, and while that time passes, the original will change a little.
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Re: Someone makes an atom for atom exact copy of you

Postby podbaydoor » Wed Jul 21, 2010 1:07 am UTC

Unless...you use MAGIC.
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Re: Someone makes an atom for atom exact copy of you

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Jul 21, 2010 3:19 am UTC

Mr. Mack wrote:That doesn't work for me, I'm not attracted to guys with beards. . . Or any guys at all. But especially not redheads. Redheads are gross.
I'm not attracted to bearded guys either, but I'd make out with myself like crazy. I mean, I know what I like, which means I'll do the things I like and so on. It's not telepathy, sure, but it'd be awesome.

Also perplexing. Is it incestuous makeouts, or masturbatory makeouts?

... actually, I think that question is far more interesting than the original. You have an exact clone made of yourself for the express purpose of having sexual intercourse with yourself. Your clone consents. Is this masturbation or incest?
heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.
heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.


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