Firearms!

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Jacque
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Re: Firearms!

Postby Jacque » Sat Sep 10, 2011 5:28 pm UTC

Then I'll take one of these:

Image

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Re: Firearms!

Postby Shivahn » Sat Sep 10, 2011 5:29 pm UTC

stevey_frac wrote:It might have something to do with the bayonet, which is illegal in the states. I guess we have to do SOMETHING to reduce all those drive-by bayonettings?

Try living in California! Our laws get even ridiculouser.

Like, they're kind-of-sensible until you really think about them.

But yeah, unfortunately, a lot of compromise on gun laws means that laws that would do good things don't get passed, while laws that attract voting but actually don't hamper crime while hampering non-criminals do.

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Re: Firearms!

Postby Thesh » Sat Sep 10, 2011 5:37 pm UTC

Jacque wrote:Then I'll take one of these:

Image


A movie prop? I don't know, I think I'd prefer a .22...
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Re: Firearms!

Postby pizzazz » Sat Sep 10, 2011 7:42 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:
Jacque wrote:I'd imagine being shot with a .45 even sans hollow pointedness would be a pretty good deterrent.


Well, if you ever have to actually use a gun in self defense, you want every advantage you can get.


Agreed. On the reliability aspect though, one thing I learned when getting scuba certified is that if your life may ever depend on some piece of equipment, you don't get the cheap stuff. And since there are military and law enforcement operations using M1911s, I have to imagine someone's making reliable versions. On the other hand, I have heard plenty of good things about Heckler, so I'll look into them as well.

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Re: Firearms!

Postby Thesh » Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:38 pm UTC

pizzazz wrote:Agreed. On the reliability aspect though, one thing I learned when getting scuba certified is that if your life may ever depend on some piece of equipment, you don't get the cheap stuff. And since there are military and law enforcement operations using M1911s, I have to imagine someone's making reliable versions. On the other hand, I have heard plenty of good things about Heckler, so I'll look into them as well.


Glocks have a huge reputation for reliability, and are probably issued to more law enforcement officers than any other handgun, but they are cheaper than most high end guns. I wouldn't consider them cheap, but they are middle of the road as price goes. The 1911s used by special forces and swat teams will cost more than an HK or Sig, and way more than a Glock. You don't have to go that expensive, though, if you want to go 1911. My plan is to get a Para 1911 GI Expert, which is Para's entry level 1911, and have a gunsmith work it over to improve reliability. This will be mostly a range gun, though, and I will probably customize it until it can't be recognized over a period of several years.

Para, Colt, Springfield, and Kimber all have good reputations, but even then many of them need to be worked over by a gunsmith to function flawlessly, although many people have no problems straight out of the box.

I would avoid "match grade guns" or guns with match grade barrels for self defense. These have tighter tolerances to improve accuracy, but they sacrifice reliability. Another thing to keep in mind, the military used pretty basic 1911s without all the match grade parts, but only fired ball ammunition through it. If that's all you're going to shoot, it should function flawlessly from any good manufacturer.

Also, if you are going to carry, I would look at a striker fired handgun with a long trigger pull (Glock, Springfield XD, Walther P99) or a hammer fired double action only.

Anyway, this is my current defense lineup:

Ruger GP100 kept loaded with 110 grain Cor Bon hollow points with two speed loaders ready to go. This is my primary self defense weapon.
Spoiler:
GP100.jpg


Springfield XD 9mm kept loaded with 11 rounds of 147 grain Remington Golden Saber hollow points and a spare 10 round magazine. This is my secondary self defense weapon.
Spoiler:
XD9.jpg
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Re: Firearms!

Postby EdgarJPublius » Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:10 pm UTC

Military doesn't use hollow points, so they don't have to worry about feeding issues with 1911s, but they do need a bigger bullet since they can't rely on expansion for stopping power.

Most police departments use either Glocks, or more recently some are switching to Smith and Wesson M&Ps. Some use SIG Sauers or H&Ks but they are generally more expensive and so not as widely used. In police use I imagine 1911s are mostly limited to small departments. (Quick wiki check on the three largest U.S. PDs shows LAPD issues Glocks, Chicago PD gives officers an allowance to purchase their own firearms, but they must be DAO, so no 1911s, NYPD gives officers a choice between a SIG, a Glock and a S&W)

When choosing a gun for self defense, I wouldn't really rely on the military or law enforcement, as they have different requirements and restrictions from private citizens.

That's not to say military or police firearms would necessarily make poor choices for self defense, but you should formulate your own requirements and only use police or military issue weapons as references.
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Re: Firearms!

Postby Thesh » Sat Sep 10, 2011 9:26 pm UTC

Wide adoption of a firearm by law enforcement agencies generally means that the firearm has been heavily tested for reliability, but you are correct that just because something is good for law enforcement doesn't mean that it is right for you.

I know LAPD SWAT used to carry 1911s, but I don't know if that's still the case. I'm pretty sure the FBIs HRT still issues 1911s, but they are really pricy ones. Probably well over $1000, maybe $2000.
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Re: Firearms!

Postby pizzazz » Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:40 pm UTC

Yeah I saw an HRT advertised for $2600 on one site. Fortunately I don't need something like that, so I can get one of the other (much cheaper) models from eg. Kimber or Springfield. Kimber in particular has a fairly big selection, but they're mostly match grade barrels.

I believe LAPD SWAT, certain USMC units, and some of the FBI's hostage units use 1911s, along with a few others.

Thesh, out of curiosity, is there a particular reason you prefer a revolver?

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Re: Firearms!

Postby Thesh » Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:48 pm UTC

Revolvers lack ammo capacity, but they are the most reliable guns on the market. If a round fails to fire in a semi-auto, you must rack the slide to clear it. If a round fails to fire in a revolver, you just pull the trigger again. Also, the GP100 is the toughest hunk of steel that you can get, and it will handle overpressure .357 magnum loads without a problem (within reason). The .357 magnum is a powerful cartridge in its own right (without being impractical), and few semi-autos can match it.
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Re: Firearms!

Postby pizzazz » Sun Sep 11, 2011 12:02 am UTC

That's fair, and in fact a lot of the .45s I've seen don't have that much more magazine capacity (lot of 7+1, though a few support up to 10 round magazines). How fast can you (personally) fire that revolver? Does it matter if you use both hands?

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Re: Firearms!

Postby Thesh » Sun Sep 11, 2011 12:09 am UTC

Some 1911s can go up to a 14 round magazine capacity. The grip is nicer on the single stack magazines, but that's a matter of preference. The revolver I could probably get off all rounds on target in about 3-5 seconds. I left the gun with the stock 14 pound mainspring. I could probably fire it faster (while keeping on target) if I replaced it with a 10 pound spring.

EDIT: almost forgot. Always shoot the gun two handed. It helps steady it and eats up some of the recoil. Here's a good instructional on proper grip:

http://www.shootingusa.com/PRO_TIPS/MIC ... ulek2.html
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Re: Firearms!

Postby pizzazz » Sun Sep 11, 2011 3:13 am UTC

Thesh wrote:Some 1911s can go up to a 14 round magazine capacity. The grip is nicer on the single stack magazines, but that's a matter of preference. The revolver I could probably get off all rounds on target in about 3-5 seconds. I left the gun with the stock 14 pound mainspring. I could probably fire it faster (while keeping on target) if I replaced it with a 10 pound spring.


Cool, thanks for all the help!

EDIT: almost forgot. Always shoot the gun two handed. It helps steady it and eats up some of the recoil. Here's a good instructional on proper grip:

http://www.shootingusa.com/PRO_TIPS/MIC ... ulek2.html


Oh of course. I've shot a decent variety of guns, I just don't own any.

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Re: Firearms!

Postby SurgicalSteel » Sun Sep 11, 2011 3:51 am UTC

stevey_frac wrote:That second rifle is a Russian SKS. Made in 1953. Beautiful piece of equipment. Elegant and simple. It may be able to shoot the broad side of a barn, provided you are shooting it from the inside. Illegal in the states, for some reason. I guess we gotta be careful we don't let those ruskies flood the market with cheap inaccurate carbines??

It might have something to do with the bayonet, which is illegal in the states. I guess we have to do SOMETHING to reduce all those drive-by bayonettings

You're partially right. But don't feel bad, the law is confusing as all hell, and that's being charitable. Basically, there is a new-ish law that controls how military surplus semi-auto rifles are imported and controlled. IIRC it's something like: if the rifle is %100 original parts it's cool, but if you change one of the parts that's on an ATF parts list you have to also change something like 10 more parts to American made parts. I'm pretty sure the bayonet is on that list. It really makes zero sense. If your interested I'll find out what the actual law is called from my dad, he's got an SKS he wants to do some work on but isn't positive that he can.
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Re: Firearms!

Postby Thesh » Sun Sep 11, 2011 4:12 am UTC

You can get all the rules here:

http://gunwiki.net/Gunwiki/LegalFederal922rFeatures

I wouldn't call it newish, it's over 20 years old.
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Re: Firearms!

Postby EdgarJPublius » Sun Sep 11, 2011 5:03 am UTC

Thesh wrote:Revolvers lack ammo capacity, but they are the most reliable guns on the market. If a round fails to fire in a semi-auto, you must rack the slide to clear it. If a round fails to fire in a revolver, you just pull the trigger again. Also, the GP100 is the toughest hunk of steel that you can get, and it will handle overpressure .357 magnum loads without a problem (within reason). The .357 magnum is a powerful cartridge in its own right (without being impractical), and few semi-autos can match it.


It's not really clear that ammo capacity is all that important. Most of the data I've seen indicates that gunfights are usually resolved by fewer than three shots. Though the accuracy and usefulness of some of this data (mostly compiled from police reports which may differ in how shots fired in an incident are counted between departments or even units of the same department) is questionable, so take it with a grain of salt.
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Re: Firearms!

Postby Kang » Sun Sep 11, 2011 12:37 pm UTC

I'd say if you are really talking about home defence and don't go practicing a lot the ammunition capacity is a great ace up your sleeve. The basic idea being that if things have gone so wrong that you think you have to shoot somebody you probably won't want to stop and check whether you hit effectively but rather want to keep on shooting as much and as quickly as you can.

Also one thing about M1911: it has that name for a reason. I think if it wasn't a fairly good design they wouldn't have kept on making them for a hundred years.

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Re: Firearms!

Postby stevey_frac » Sun Sep 11, 2011 6:24 pm UTC

SurgicalSteel wrote:
stevey_frac wrote:That second rifle is a Russian SKS. Made in 1953. Beautiful piece of equipment. Elegant and simple. It may be able to shoot the broad side of a barn, provided you are shooting it from the inside. Illegal in the states, for some reason. I guess we gotta be careful we don't let those ruskies flood the market with cheap inaccurate carbines??

It might have something to do with the bayonet, which is illegal in the states. I guess we have to do SOMETHING to reduce all those drive-by bayonettings

You're partially right. But don't feel bad, the law is confusing as all hell, and that's being charitable. Basically, there is a new-ish law that controls how military surplus semi-auto rifles are imported and controlled. IIRC it's something like: if the rifle is %100 original parts it's cool, but if you change one of the parts that's on an ATF parts list you have to also change something like 10 more parts to American made parts. I'm pretty sure the bayonet is on that list. It really makes zero sense. If your interested I'll find out what the actual law is called from my dad, he's got an SKS he wants to do some work on but isn't positive that he can.



To be clear, my gun is perfectly legal in Canada. It's just illegal in the states. And i would never dare try to cross the border with it. I'd be back in the special room sooo fast...

Gun laws in Canada are ridiculous too. For instance, I can buy a shotgun with a 10" barrel, legally. But if I take my trusty browning, and cut the barrel below 18", then it's illegal. And if I put an 18" barrel on the 10" shotty, then replace the 10" barrel, it's now illegal, despite the fact it's the same.... it's really retarded.

And the gun registry is ridiculous. Don't get me started on that.

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Re: Firearms!

Postby EdgarJPublius » Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:25 am UTC

Kang wrote:I'd say if you are really talking about home defence and don't go practicing a lot the ammunition capacity is a great ace up your sleeve. The basic idea being that if things have gone so wrong that you think you have to shoot somebody you probably won't want to stop and check whether you hit effectively but rather want to keep on shooting as much and as quickly as you can.

Also one thing about M1911: it has that name for a reason. I think if it wasn't a fairly good design they wouldn't have kept on making them for a hundred years.


No. Ammunition capacity is absolutely not a substitute for practice and efficient shot placement.

Bullets have a tendency to penetrate things like doors, walls, limbs and innocent bystanders. if you fire wildly, you drastically increase the chances of injuring or killing a family member in another room, an innocent bystander or yourself. Even if you hit your target, there is a high chance that your hit will not be effective unless it is aimed at center mass, meaning an attacker could still be coming at you, just more pissed off.
Int he IDPA competitions I've participated in, the saying goes 'There's no way to miss your way to first place' and the same goes for real life defensive scenarios, you can't miss an attacker enough times to stop the attack.

Now, of course extra ammo is nice to have if your first shots go wild for whatever reason (a defensive shooting is a very stressful situation, and it's not really possible to be completely prepared for that), or if there are multiple attackers etc. But having more bullets than you need should never be used as a crutch or a substitute/replacement for aimed, well-placed shots.
There's a difference between not being stingy with your bullets, and using 'more dakka' as compensation for lack of practice.
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Re: Firearms!

Postby Steax » Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:56 am UTC

I don't own any firearms, but I'm currently in need of those generic rules you have to take with weapons, because of a... complicated situation (I'm educating kids playing with toy guns about how to treat real ones). I know the general rules, like never put your finger on the trigger before you're ready to pull it, never point it at a person, treat all guns as if they were loaded, etc. Is there any "official" set of rules, or a good guideline?
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Re: Firearms!

Postby Ryom » Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:01 am UTC

Shivahn wrote:
stevey_frac wrote:It might have something to do with the bayonet, which is illegal in the states. I guess we have to do SOMETHING to reduce all those drive-by bayonettings?

Try living in California! Our laws get even ridiculouser.

Like, they're kind-of-sensible until you really think about them.

But yeah, unfortunately, a lot of compromise on gun laws means that laws that would do good things don't get passed, while laws that attract voting but actually don't hamper crime while hampering non-criminals do.


Heck, in PA you can open carry, no license required... yet even owning a collapsible baton is illegal. So in essence: guns = legal, glorified bats = illegal. I wish legislators would stop trying to outlaw THINGS and stick to outlawing actions. Sure you can carry a baton, but if you use it in a crime you get extra time and barred from ever carrying a weapon of any type again. Sure you can inject whatever you want, but if you go stumbling naked through a preschool shouting about the end times while you're tripping, you'll get a mandated stay in rehab and barred from using "fun" substances.

That kind of thing.

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Re: Firearms!

Postby Shivahn » Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:13 pm UTC

Steax wrote:I don't own any firearms, but I'm currently in need of those generic rules you have to take with weapons, because of a... complicated situation (I'm educating kids playing with toy guns about how to treat real ones). I know the general rules, like never put your finger on the trigger before you're ready to pull it, never point it at a person, treat all guns as if they were loaded, etc. Is there any "official" set of rules, or a good guideline?

Well, there are really only a few general rules, with some more that are sometimes put on (and would be good to know). The always-there-ones are usually

1) Always assume the firearm is loaded (even when you know it's not)
2) Never point the firearm at something you're not willing to destroy
3) Do not put your finger on the trigger until the moment you want to fire
4) Always be sure of your target and know what's behind it

(For that last one, remember that most bullets will go through most target if you hit and much further if you don't)

There are other miscellaneous ones that don't always fit the situation, too, stuff like never relying solely on the safety, as it's a mechanical device and can fail, but those four are the big ones.

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Re: Firearms!

Postby EdgarJPublius » Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:25 pm UTC

Also be sure of what is in front of your target. In some situations it can be easy to become target-fixated and not consider that just because you can see the target doesn't mean you can hit it safely if there is a person or some other obstacle in the line of fire.

You may also want to go over ear and eye protection, which should be worn at all times while shooting.

The NRA and/or whatever state agency is responsible for hunting permits in your area likely provide basic firearm safety courses as well.
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Re: Firearms!

Postby Kang » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:14 pm UTC

EdgarJPublius wrote:
Kang wrote:I'd say if you are really talking about home defence and don't go practicing a lot the ammunition capacity is a great ace up your sleeve. The basic idea being that if things have gone so wrong that you think you have to shoot somebody you probably won't want to stop and check whether you hit effectively but rather want to keep on shooting as much and as quickly as you can.

Also one thing about M1911: it has that name for a reason. I think if it wasn't a fairly good design they wouldn't have kept on making them for a hundred years.


No. Ammunition capacity is absolutely not a substitute for practice and efficient shot placement.

Bullets have a tendency to penetrate things like doors, walls, limbs and innocent bystanders. if you fire wildly, you drastically increase the chances of injuring or killing a family member in another room, an innocent bystander or yourself. Even if you hit your target, there is a high chance that your hit will not be effective unless it is aimed at center mass, meaning an attacker could still be coming at you, just more pissed off.
Int he IDPA competitions I've participated in, the saying goes 'There's no way to miss your way to first place' and the same goes for real life defensive scenarios, you can't miss an attacker enough times to stop the attack.

Now, of course extra ammo is nice to have if your first shots go wild for whatever reason (a defensive shooting is a very stressful situation, and it's not really possible to be completely prepared for that), or if there are multiple attackers etc. But having more bullets than you need should never be used as a crutch or a substitute/replacement for aimed, well-placed shots.
There's a difference between not being stingy with your bullets, and using 'more dakka' as compensation for lack of practice.

Yea, that's not really what I meant, but if given the choice between 'having one shot and a fairly shaky idea of what I'm doing' and 'having thirty shots in quick succession without a better idea of what I'm doing' I'd sure take the latter one, because it does improve the chances. Obviously a central part of that is the point at which you for yourself decide that you have to shoot somebody, too. Also I wasn't necessarily on about bullets going amiss but thought more about those that actually do hit the target but end up ineffective.
As an example: you wake up at night, stumble through your place when Jack your friendly neighbourhood murderer stands in your living room. He comes charging at you with a knife or whatever. While I know it's not a nice thing I would - provided I had that gun with me and so on - just keep shooting at him until he doesn't move anymore, not taking the chance of losing yet another yard of him getting closer while I inspect whether I hit him or not.

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Re: Firearms!

Postby EdgarJPublius » Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:58 pm UTC

This article indicates that when rounds considered adequate for self defense are used (that is generally, larger/more powerful than .32 caliber) around fifty percent of the time one well placed shot will incapacitate the target, and even inadequate rounds (such as .22, .25 and .32 calibers) will incapacitate the target on average with fewer than three hits.

You are much more likely to need more ammo due to misses than due to ineffective hits.

Another reason not to rely on ammo capacity is that in the event an attacker is actively charging you, you probably won't have time to fire more than two or three shots before they are in striking range anyway.
Last edited by EdgarJPublius on Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:52 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Firearms!

Postby doinkisaac » Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:19 am UTC

Spambot5546 wrote:
SurgicalSteel wrote:I'm resurrecting this thread to ask some opinions.

I recently moved out of the not-so-great state of New York and am looking to get a pistol. It will be largely for target shooting, but may also become a carry pistol. I've taken a look at the S&W M&P40, the Beretta Px4 and the Ruger LC9. I think the Ruger was too small, it felt like I couldn't get a positive enough grip on it. The Px4 and M&P felt great in my hands though, very comfortable. I only got to hold the guns, didn't get to shoot them. Anybody have any opinions on the Px4 or the M&P? I may go back to the shop and see if they have an M&P9, the 40 is a little large dimension-wise for carry it seems.

The only sidearm I've ever used to any significant degree is the Beretta 9mm I used when I was in the service. It's supposed to be one of the safest firearms there are, but it has a problem with stove-piping. The research I've done seems to indicate that a revolver is better for home/personal defense. They're less likely to jam, and when are you going to need more than six bullets?

The 92fs/m9 is a nice gun for what it was designed for, but there certainly other choices for less. (MSRP 650$ vs roughly 450$ for a G17)
You'll need more than six shots when your adrenaline is pumping, and you (not you specifically, but a civilian who hasn't really been trained in shooting in these conditions) miss every shot because of the 15 lb trigger (and that pesky adrenaline). You're not Revolver Ocelot (but it would be cool if you were :mrgreen: ). Also, you could have six misfires, and need to reload, which isn't very fast with a revolver (or, for that matter, particularly common). And then there's the zombies, can't forget about the zombies. :D
Spambot5546 wrote:
SurgicalSteel wrote:Also, I know this is a hot topic, but what do people think of ARs in .223 for home defense? I used to be pretty against it, but then I picked up a copy of The Book of the AR-15 by Patrick Sweeney. He presents a pretty good case for why an AR in 223 shooting non-AP bullets is a good HD gun (and even better than a handgun in 9 or 40), and why a lot of the bro-science about the penetrative abilities of the .223 are crap. He's written other books and articles about different platforms and cartridges, and he's generally well respected in the gun writing world, so it seems unlikely he's just being an AR fanboy claiming it's the perfect gun for every job.

I'm sure there are ways to make an AR less crappy as a home defense option, but I'd bet non-AP rounds still penetrate more than hollow-points. If you need a long-gun in the house a shotgun would probably be the better way to go. I wanted to get a Mossberg a while back, but never had enough saved up.

This, but make the shotgun the 1st firearm that you go to. For one thing, racking a shotgun (assuming it's pump) has an incredible psychological effect on people/would-be home invaders. For another thing, IIRC, there have been cases where the homeowner lost due to "scary" guns, line ARs, being used. If you have a "scary" looking gun, then many people will think, or can be convinced, that you were looking for a fight. This is less hard with your ornate, vintage, $10 grand Purdey (and $10k's lowballing it) makes them less likely to think that.
pizzazz wrote:I do not currently own a gun because I go to school in Chicago, and the school's rules are even stricter than the city's. But I plan on getting one once I graduate and get a job. For whatever reason, the M1911 really appeals to me; maybe it's just the history buff in me. Anyone have any experience with one?

Yes, nice gun. Expensive to make it really nice, (relatively) inexpensive to make it decent. I like them.
Thesh wrote:They are fun to shoot, but might not be as reliable as some of the newer designs like Glocks, HKs, and Sigs. 1911s can be hit and miss depending on who built it and many won't feed hollow points, so I wouldn't use it as a self defense weapon, but it's still a great range gun if that's what you're looking for.

I disagree here. The 1911, if properly maintained and fit is as reliable as any of the others listed (except the Glock, those things are bulletproof, but don't actually shoot at one :lol:). If you have one of the super-high-tolerance raceguns, I'd probably agree a lot more, but a normal m1911a1 in good condition should work just fine. Also, they fixed the hollow point issue, a bunch of frames and barrels have feed ramps cut into them to allow for loading of hp's w/o jamming.
Jacque wrote:I'd imagine being shot with a .45 even sans hollow pointedness would be a pretty good deterrent.

There are quite a few documented cases of tweakers and other junkies, especially PCP users going for quite a while at full capacity after being shot by hp rounds. And by shot, I mean mortal wounds and hits that would instantly incapacitate normal people.
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Re: Firearms!

Postby Thesh » Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:58 am UTC

doinkisaac wrote:I disagree here. The 1911, if properly maintained and fit is as reliable as any of the others listed (except the Glock, those things are bulletproof, but don't actually shoot at one :lol:). If you have one of the super-high-tolerance raceguns, I'd probably agree a lot more, but a normal m1911a1 in good condition should work just fine. Also, they fixed the hollow point issue, a bunch of frames and barrels have feed ramps cut into them to allow for loading of hp's w/o jamming.


They can be reliable, but not all of them are. There are so many manufacturers and variations out there that you can't really call the 1911 design as a whole reliable. The closer to the original design, the less likely it is to feed hollow points. Pick up a less expensive model, and you will also be much more likely to have a lemon.

The design of the 1911 is old, and many improvements have been made for simplicity and reliability. Two major improvements were getting rid of the barrel bushing (it's not unreliable per say, but it takes a lot of effort to fit properly), as well as the barrel locking into the ejection port getting rid of the need for the locking lugs like you see on the 1911 (which also need to be properly lined up, sometimes requiring fitting as well).

So yes, 1911s can be reliable, but it's a lot harder to make a design like the 1911 reliable than it is to make a to make a design like a Sig, Glock, or HK reliable.
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Re: Firearms!

Postby Coffee » Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:08 am UTC

The only firearm I've had any real experience with is the M16A2 I'm sometimes issued.

Now if I ever get my own personal firearm... I'll have to go with a Mare's Leg; primarily because of certain associations I made with it around 2002.
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Re: Firearms!

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:58 pm UTC

doinkisaac wrote:
Jacque wrote:I'd imagine being shot with a .45 even sans hollow pointedness would be a pretty good deterrent.

There are quite a few documented cases of tweakers and other junkies, especially PCP users going for quite a while at full capacity after being shot by hp rounds. And by shot, I mean mortal wounds and hits that would instantly incapacitate normal people.
Tl;Dr: My opinions on gun topics
Then you'll have no problem citing them for us, as my readings have found that to be a misunderstanding of nonvital shots that, while life threatening were not near-instantly lethal as the rumor claims them to be, so I'm interested in reading the other side of it.
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Re: Firearms!

Postby Spambot5546 » Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:30 pm UTC

doinkisaac wrote:The 92fs/m9 is a nice gun for what it was designed for, but there certainly other choices for less. (MSRP 650$ vs roughly 450$ for a G17)
You'll need more than six shots when your adrenaline is pumping, and you (not you specifically, but a civilian who hasn't really been trained in shooting in these conditions) miss every shot because of the 15 lb trigger (and that pesky adrenaline). You're not Revolver Ocelot (but it would be cool if you were :mrgreen: ). Also, you could have six misfires, and need to reload, which isn't very fast with a revolver (or, for that matter, particularly common). And then there's the zombies, can't forget about the zombies. :D

I don't overall disagree, but I would point out that if a person is that lacking in confidence or familiarity with a weapon they shouldn't own it. Train, practice, get familiar, before you have to shoot armed robbers.

SecondTalon wrote:Then you'll have no problem citing them for us, as my readings have found that to be a misunderstanding of nonvital shots that, while life threatening were not near-instantly lethal as the rumor claims them to be, so I'm interested in reading the other side of it.

You can read a general overview of the effect on Wikipedia's entry on PCP. This is the important part:
The analgesic properties of the drug can cause users to feel less pain, and persist in violent or injurious acts as a result

If you recall the original Terminator it's also the drug that Admiral Hackett speculated would allow a man to punch through a car windshield and still keep his grip on a moving car. It's not that the injuries aren't there, it's that PCP makes you crazy and you don't care about them.
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Re: Firearms!

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:37 pm UTC

Being able to ignore nonspecified Injuries and a character in a movie theorizing based on the popular perception of 1980s cops logic are not exactly what I'd cite as my evidence for a PCP user being able to keep moving through a mortal injury and only stopping when they expire a few minutes later, or ignoring incapacitation hollow point shots, which generally are going to mean that the muscles aren't just damaged but no longer existing within the body.
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Re: Firearms!

Postby Spambot5546 » Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:45 pm UTC

I won't defend every one of the previous poster's points, especially since hollow points are one of the tools specifically recommended to stop someone who won't be stopped by pain, but the vague gist, that PCP makes people very dangerous, that part's accurate.

Edit: Also, if you're going to claim that '80s action movies don't depict reality perfectly then we might as well end this discussion now because we're speaking a completely different language.
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Re: Firearms!

Postby Vash » Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:21 am UTC

somedaypilot wrote:So after several years of engineering college, I have noticed that geeks and firearms go well together. Is this a southern thing, or is it a general trend? What weapons do you own or want to own? I personally only have a .22 Remington target rifle, but after I save up some money I plan on getting a handgun or revolver for concealed carry, and a shotgun for home defense.


I want to buy a Desert Eagle, but in reality, I probably never will.

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Re: Firearms!

Postby stevey_frac » Fri Sep 16, 2011 6:26 pm UTC

I need a decent rifle for hunting bear and moose. Probably a 30-06, or a .308.

And i need a .22.

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Re: Firearms!

Postby Thesh » Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:08 pm UTC

How much you looking to spend on the hunting rifle? I would look at a Winchester Model 70. Great trigger, and a decent price.

EDIT: It looks like winchester raised their prices since I looked. MSRP now starts closer to $900.

Also, .22 rifle or pistol? Semi-auto?

Ruger 10-22 is always a good rifle. I have a MK-III pistol, which is also a great .22 pistol but a bitch to disassemble.
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Re: Firearms!

Postby Zapheod » Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:51 pm UTC

I second the Ruger 10-22. It was my very first gun and I still love going out and shooting it.

Another fun option for a .22 is the Baretta Neos. If you can find one, there is a carbine conversion kit for it too.

For a hunting rifle, I recently purchased a Tikka T3 Lite. The model was designed by Baretta. Other than replacing the recoil pad I have done nothing to it. With a 3x9 40 scope I am easily hitting soda cans at 200 yds. Grouping is 1 MOA at 100 yds. It was just over $720 including scope and taxes. I would definitely reccomend this but replace the recoild pad or you will be bruised after ~20 shots.

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Re: Firearms!

Postby Tomlidich » Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:48 pm UTC

wow, i half expected this to be a flame war when i clicked.

if you are looking for a cheap historical piece, a mosin nagant is ok.
not the finest, but not too shabby either.
100 dollars.

i want to get a .22 and maybe an fal.

which in cali is not easy.

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Re: Firearms!

Postby Vash » Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:08 am UTC

If I do end up buying guns, I'm most interested in guns for the shooting range only. Basically, any gun with interesting shooting characteristics, or great accuracy. I also like the idea of using guns from every category (i.e. accurate pistols as well as accurate rifles), and of any era as long as they are very accurate. Anyone know more?

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Re: Firearms!

Postby Thesh » Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:35 pm UTC

It's not always about accuracy, but it often comes down to just fun to shoot. My .22 is nice because ammo for it is dirt cheap. My .357 magnum and 9mm get expensive, so I hand load ammo. It's still not quite as cheap, but they're more fun to shoot.

My .223 is just an inexpensive rifle, but it's also just plain fun to shoot, without being extremely accurate.

I still have to get myself a shotgun for clays sometime soon.
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Re: Firearms!

Postby Zapheod » Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:27 pm UTC

How hard is it to hand load ammo? My rifle currently cost $1 a shot and that limits how often I go out shooting.

I think my next purchase will be a shotgun as well. I want to be a well rounded marksman and figure I will need to be competent with pistol, rifle and shotgun to claim that title.

Trying to decide if I want to go with a Saiga or the Mossberg 500 Tactical Persuader. I live in a crappy neighborhood and hope that the sound of chambering a round in a pump action shotgun would convince any thieves to quickly leave the premises. The Saiga would just be so much fun to shoot. I also don't like having loaded weapons in the house. Having a magazine fed shotgun would let me keep it close but not have it loaded until needed.
Last edited by Zapheod on Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:42 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Firearms!

Postby Thesh » Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:09 pm UTC

It's fairly easy to reload, it's just time consuming if you are reloading a lot. Also, the initial investment can be pretty expensive so you have to do the math on how often you shoot and how much components are to see if it's worth it for you.
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