Firearms!

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Tomlidich
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Re: Firearms!

Postby Tomlidich » Wed Sep 21, 2011 4:39 pm UTC

Zapheod wrote:How hard is it to hand load ammo? My rifle currently cost $1 a shot and that limits how often I go out shooting.

I think my next purchase will be a shotgun as well. I want to be a well rounded marksman and figure I will need to be competent with pistol, rifle and shotgun to claim that title.

Trying to decide if I want to go with a Saiga or the Mossberg 500 Tactical Persuader. I live in a crappy neighborhood and hope that the sound of chambering a round in a pump action shotgun would convince any thieves to quickly leave the premises. The Saiga would just be so much fun to shoot. I also don't like having loaded weapons in the house. Having a magazine fed shotgun would let me keep it close but not have it loaded until needed.


i have a buddy of mine that handloads and casts for his rifles.... he makes .303 brit for 6 cents a shot!

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Re: Firearms!

Postby Kick » Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:57 am UTC

Ryom wrote:
Shivahn wrote:
stevey_frac wrote:It might have something to do with the bayonet, which is illegal in the states. I guess we have to do SOMETHING to reduce all those drive-by bayonettings?

Try living in California! Our laws get even ridiculouser.

Like, they're kind-of-sensible until you really think about them.

But yeah, unfortunately, a lot of compromise on gun laws means that laws that would do good things don't get passed, while laws that attract voting but actually don't hamper crime while hampering non-criminals do.


Heck, in PA you can open carry, no license required... yet even owning a collapsible baton is illegal. So in essence: guns = legal, glorified bats = illegal. I wish legislators would stop trying to outlaw THINGS and stick to outlawing actions. Sure you can carry a baton, but if you use it in a crime you get extra time and barred from ever carrying a weapon of any type again. Sure you can inject whatever you want, but if you go stumbling naked through a preschool shouting about the end times while you're tripping, you'll get a mandated stay in rehab and barred from using "fun" substances.

That kind of thing.

Yeah, I was interested in concealed as I now live in Reading which is, nicely put, not the safest of places. My hometown has also grown more violent, a man was shot and killed for $25 on his way home from work in the middle of town and there have been more reports of home invasions/theft. So, I started looking into the laws assuming that I'd have to get a license before even touching a gun. Instead, I found out that the laws seem a little ridiculous. I can buy a gun for the house and that's that. Concealed carry isn't that hard either as it's under a "will issue" system, as in, they are required to issue one unless they can find reason not to. It is true, too, that one can openly carry without a permit legally, however the police will give you a hard time and it's not recommended.

Anyway, I am still interested in concealed carry although I am a little perturbed by the ease one can purchase a firearm. I'm going to get some training first, and then I'm thinking of buy a SIG Sauer 1911 Nitron and getting my concealed carry permit.

I'm still not entirely sure how I feel about guns, but I think that I would feel safer carrying and as I've been thinking about going into the military after college I think it wouldn't hurt to become acquainted with them.
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Re: Firearms!

Postby the.coding.eye » Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:04 pm UTC

Kick, its fantastic that your interested in concealed carry. However, as another person that is in college and carries I have a couple helpful pointers for your.

First of all, i would steer you away from a 1911 as a carry gun. There are a few reasons for this: first of all the weight of the gun. Obviously this is going to vary between 1911s. However, they all are a solid metal construction and very heavy for everyday carry. Secondly, they can have a somewhat complicated safety system if you ever need it in a hurry. Not that safties are complicated but it can just hang you up.

Because of these two issues, I would recommend either a Glock or a Springfield XD for your first concealed gun. Both the Glock and the XD don't have a traditional lever safety. The Glock has a trigger safety and the XD has a grip safety. Just make sure you have a good holster that completely covers the trigger and guard. Also, both have a polymer frame making the gun much lighter to carry. In addition, the Glock and the XD are much cheaper then a 1911, especially a Sig version. Btw I have a Glock and I love it.

The second pointer, or at least something I want to point out is mindset. The gun isn't something your going to use just to get out of a minor scrape. If you unholster your gun toward someone in a situation, you better be "in fear for your life" or whatever your state laws dictate. Also, you better be mentally prepared to kill someone and deal with the legal consequences whatever they may be.

Two more things then I'm done. I highly doubt carry will be legal on campus in your state. And while it is always helpful to have prior experience, the millitary will teach you everything you need to know about guns, if your going to be in a field where your using them.
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Re: Firearms!

Postby EdgarJPublius » Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:54 pm UTC

the.coding.eye wrote:First of all, i would steer you away from a 1911 as a carry gun. There are a few reasons for this: first of all the weight of the gun. Obviously this is going to vary between 1911s. However, they all are a solid metal construction and very heavy for everyday carry. Secondly, they can have a somewhat complicated safety system if you ever need it in a hurry. Not that safties are complicated but it can just hang you up.


Expanding on this, 1911s can have issues with defensive ammunition due to the design of the feeding ramp (or lack of same in many models).

Personally, I dislike single action firearms such as the 1911, Glock and Springfield for defensive carry. I prefer double action or da/sa such as the FNP/FNX or Sig Sauer. Single action firearms must be cocked before they can be fired, in a double action firearm though, the trigger pull also actuates the hammer, cocking the weapon without needing to manually pull back the slide or the hammer (this is less of an issue in striker fired pistols such as the Glock or XD where you have to cock them by pulling back the slide to load a round, but the 1911 or a striker fired pistol with a decocker {why you would do this I don't know, but they exist for some reason} might have a round in the chamber but be unable to fire.)

Other good choices would be the Smith and Wesson M&P which is striker fired with a similar trigger safety to the Glock but also has options for additional safety features if desired. Or the Berreta PX4 Storm which is hammer fired and has a good variety of options for safety features and trigger styles.

The single best piece of advice for choosing a defensive handgun though is to go out and try different models and styles. The best defensive pistol isn't the safest or the easiest to fire, or even the one you're most accurate with. It's the one you will practice with often and be most comfortable carrying on you at all times. (As the saying goes, a concealed handgun does you no good if you left it at home or in the glove box)
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Re: Firearms!

Postby the.coding.eye » Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:41 pm UTC

I did forget about the M&P but I don't have as much experience shooting them.

The biggest advantage with the striker-fire design (that I also forgot in my original post) is the first trigger pull has the same weight as subsequent pulls. With a double action semi auto handgun, the first pull cocks the hammer and fires. Subsequent pulls just fire because the slide action of the recoil cocks the hammer for you.
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Re: Firearms!

Postby EdgarJPublius » Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:41 pm UTC

You can get the same effect with a da/sa (double action/single action) by just keeping the hammer back, or with a DAO (double action only) as the hammer will return to the original position between shots. However, a single action trigger is a lot lighter than double action which can be a plus or minus depending on preference.

I generally prefer single action from a da/sa trigger over 'safe' SAO triggers like the Glock, but there's a lot of room for personal preference.

There's also a bit of a safety aspect to hammer vs. striker fired and double action vs. SAO.
A hammer gives you a tactile and visual reference to the state of the gun. With the hammer down you can easily tell if something has gotten into the trigger guard by the hammer pulling back, and can intervene by grabbing the hammer and holding it back while you remove the obstruction. The longer double action pull also means it takes more pressure from an obstruction to cause a discharge. Also, requiring that much more effort to fire can give you more time to think and analyze the situation, which again, could be good in a stressful 'life or death' defensive situation, but may not be so good if it causes you to over-think the situation or start second guessing yourself.

Grip safeties obviate the problem by preventing the gun from firing even when the trigger is pulled unless the grip safety is depressed, but can cause problems if you don't get a good grip on the pistol to depress the safety or are unable to due to injury or some other issue.

Now, with a good holster that covers the trigger guard, the chances of something actually getting in there and causing problems is extremely small, so it shouldn't really be a concern, but it is something to think about.

Personally, in addition to liking the trigger feel better, I just like having the option of double or single action depending on the situation. There's a lot of personal preference in choosing an action, safety features etc. All of them have their detractors and supporters, advantages and disadvantages.
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Re: Firearms!

Postby SurgicalSteel » Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:29 am UTC

Not a Glock fan for carrying (not for range shooting either, but that's a different story) and I'll tell you why: there's no manual safety. Sure, the gun won't go off unless you pull the trigger, but it'll also fire every time you pull the trigger (malfunctions notwithstanding). With such a light trigger it would be pretty easy to accidentally fire the gun while drawing, holstering, or holding someone at bay while the police come to your house and your nervous and shaking. IMO the trigger is too light for it to be without a manual safety. Anecdata, I know, but people, including officers, have shot themselves reholstering their glock because there was no manual safety and their finger or a piece of debris accidentally pushed the trigger while it was entering the holster.

If a common paddle safety is too complicated for you you don't have enough training or experience to carry safely, and probably shouldn't be carrying.

If a manual safety really does bother you though, a true DA or SA/DA is a good thing to look at it. Smith and Wesson just came out with a blued version of their Model 640 (the 440). It's a double action, five shot revolver with a bobbed hammer for concealed carry.
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Re: Firearms!

Postby SecondTalon » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:01 pm UTC

Kick wrote:I'm still not entirely sure how I feel about guns, but I think that I would feel safer carrying and as I've been thinking about going into the military after college I think it wouldn't hurt to become acquainted with them.


Lemme preface all this by saying - Get a gun, guns are fun to shoot.

Based on everything else you're saying, though, I think getting a concealed carry at this stage would be a monumentally terrible idea. You don't have a gun, you're not comfortable with a gun, and you have no idea how easily they can simply "Go off for no reason" when you thought everything was fine.

So.. you want a handgun? Awesome. Look at ammo prices, and get something that shoots cheap. Find a range, and spend an hour or two a week (or more) blowing the hell out of targets. Get comfortable with the weapon, with using it, with how it works and so on. Then, in a year or so, revisit the idea of a concealed carry.

Because if you get one now-ish and for some reason have a cause (or just think you have cause) to defend yourself, you're just going to shoot yourself or, worse, get in a situation where the gun is taken from you and now your assailant has your weapon and is probably very pissed that you pulled a gun on them. You also really need to look into the laws of your state(s) on how killing someone in self defense plays out, and when you are permitted to fire on another person and so on. Because they're all different and they're all weird and they're all written with the notion of no one dying.

But in the meantime, if you're concerned about your personal safety I recommend the defensive weapon of Running Shoes, which are best used to Run The Fuck Away.
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Re: Firearms!

Postby Kick » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:10 pm UTC

I think I'm pretty set on a SIG 1911 RCS, I like the design and want something I can count on (not doubting the others, but I've heard quite highly of SIG). I've seen the thumb safety in action on the RCS and it doesn't look difficult/cumbersome at all, in fact it looks quite fluid and reliable. Of course, I have yet to actually get my hands on one, but I'll probably be able to this weekend as I'm planning on going to a range that has them for rent / sale.

I don't think I'll actively start carrying until either I move into an apartment (currently living in the dorms) or after I graduate (most likely), because, as you said Talon, it would be a bad idea for me to get one now. Hell, I may never end up carrying, it was just a thought of mine that I looked into.

Oh and I'm not a very good runner...
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Re: Firearms!

Postby SurgicalSteel » Sat Dec 03, 2011 10:18 pm UTC

Listen to SexyTalon, he's right on the money. I also recommend checking out usacarry.com. The forums there are pretty good, they can be slow, but it's populated mostly by intelligent, level-headed people. And quite a few are self-defense instructors too. Deciding to carry is a big responsibility, it's not like deciding to carry a flashlight or leatherman just in case you need it. Massad Ayoob is somebody who's writing I would recommend reading before you start carrying. He writes a lot about self-defense in general, not just carrying, but also actually using the firearm, as well as other aspects of self-defense. He also has some writings about the responsibility of owning a firearm in general.

If you do go to the range this weekend let us know how it turns out though!
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Re: Firearms!

Postby Thesh » Sat Dec 03, 2011 10:36 pm UTC

Kick wrote:I think I'm pretty set on a SIG 1911 RCS, I like the design and want something I can count on (not doubting the others, but I've heard quite highly of SIG). I've seen the thumb safety in action on the RCS and it doesn't look difficult/cumbersome at all, in fact it looks quite fluid and reliable. Of course, I have yet to actually get my hands on one, but I'll probably be able to this weekend as I'm planning on going to a range that has them for rent / sale.


I don't know anything about SIG's 1911 pistols, but they didn't make their reputation making 1911s, they made their reputation off of the P220/P226. Not only are those newer, simpler designs that are probably going to be more reliable than a 1911, but they are also cheaper than the gun you are looking at.

Also, SIG is relatively new to the 1911 market. Does this mean that they are going to be bad pistols? No. But even 1911s from reputed manufacturers (Springfield, Kimber, Para, Colt) can be hit and miss at times and require professional gunsmith work to be made reliable.


Don't get me wrong, I love 1911s, but with any 1911 you need to be ready to accept that they aren't the best bang for the buck, and they may need work to function flawlessly, especially with hollow points.
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Re: Firearms!

Postby EdgarJPublius » Sun Dec 04, 2011 12:32 am UTC

The 1911 is a gun from a time, as discussed earlier in this thread, when barrel bushings were a thing and feed ramps were not. Modern defensive firearm theory has moved on since those days, and newer designs are not only simpler and more reliable, but informed by a century of thought and study on what should go into a defensive weapon and what should not.

There are certainly reasons to want a 1911, and even reasons to want to own and use a 1911 as a defensive firearm, many of these reasons are very good ones.

That said, if you are new to firearms and want a defensive pistol that you can rely on, those reasons, for the most part, do not apply to you.

A modern defensive pistol, such as those mentioned will more reliably feed defensive (hollow point) ammunition, require less and easier to perform maintenance and generally be easier to own and use.
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Re: Firearms!

Postby IcedT » Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:46 am UTC

I recently acquired an old Lee-Enfield. It's in very good condition, with all its original components except the bayonet, no rust anywhere. But even after cleaning and oiling it, I can't get the bolt to close. It'll go forward all the way (enough to chamber the round) but the handle won't drop in and lock. There seems to be a notch in the receiver that the bolt gets snagged on. I don't have the skills or the equipment to work on this thing myself. What do you guys suggest?

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Re: Firearms!

Postby SurgicalSteel » Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:07 am UTC

If it looks like it'll involve grinding away part of the receiver I'd suggest finding a gunsmith you trust, particularly if you don't have the skills or tools to trust yourself with something like that. Also though, could you post a pic of the receiver? I'm curious what the problem looks like.
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Re: Firearms!

Postby nehpest » Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:32 am UTC

I don't own any, but an enthusiast friend has taken me to the range a few times, whereupon I fired an XD9 and a Colt .45. I'd only shot rifles and shotguns previously, so the Springfield felt much more comfortable.

A question, since there aren't any decent ranges near me where I can find out myself: am I just a 9mm kind of guy, or does one gradually get used to the heavier stuff?
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Re: Firearms!

Postby Thesh » Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:46 am UTC

nehpest wrote:A question, since there aren't any decent ranges near me where I can find out myself: am I just a 9mm kind of guy, or does one gradually get used to the heavier stuff?


Your grip makes all the difference. You want your grip tight and the webbing of your hand as high up against the grip as possible. That will help you handle the recoil for most calibers (along with a good stance, which is mainly so you are ready to follow up quickly).
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Re: Firearms!

Postby EdgarJPublius » Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:18 am UTC

In addition to Thesh's advice on your grip, it may also depend on the weight and ergonomics of the pistol. My dad has a Colt Officer's model (compact 1911) that is extremely rough to shoot, but I've shot full size 1911's that were very comfortable and even larger double stack .45s like the H&K USP that were a joy to shoot.

Even lower powered rounds can be tough to handle out of smaller pistols.
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Re: Firearms!

Postby wst » Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:06 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:
nehpest wrote:A question, since there aren't any decent ranges near me where I can find out myself: am I just a 9mm kind of guy, or does one gradually get used to the heavier stuff?
Your grip makes all the difference. You want your grip tight and the webbing of your hand as high up against the grip as possible. That will help you handle the recoil for most calibers (along with a good stance, which is mainly so you are ready to follow up quickly).
I guess this is logically because it gets the line of force (well, the recoil) closer to the centre of rotation of your wrist, so you have... a) less torque on your wrist, so it's less to hold down, and b) the force is directed into a larger mass of bone and flesh (your arm) more directly, so there's less physical movement from the recoil.

As a UKer, though, I only have experience with rifles really. Having gone from .22LR stuff (prone, 25 yards) to .308 Winchester (prone, 200-600 yards, not that range is relevant, just dickwaving!), it did take some time to get used to the added power. I snagged my eyebrow with the rearsight on my first shot and acquired a noticeable flinch for a while, until I got my brain back in gear.
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Re: Firearms!

Postby yawningdog » Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:24 pm UTC

I have owned many in the past, but I currently own two. I have a Taurus Millennium Pro in 9mm, and a Savage 10FP in .308. There are many others I would like to have, but cannot justify spending the money. I hold a cc permit in the state of Virginia, which is a very gun-friendly state. When my father passed away (I was 7 years old) he left a pretty large collection, but my mother has long since sold them all. She hasn't liked them since she nearly shot her own foot while hunting rabbits.

I find that I have a certain fascination with guns. I think it has to do with the amount of craftsmanship and engineering that goes into making one. I get the same feeling from holding a nice electric guitar. (I've owned many of those as well.) For some reason, the heaviness seems to appeal to me.
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Re: Firearms!

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:37 pm UTC

I got to fire a .357 over Thanksgiving. It was... loud.
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Re: Firearms!

Postby Thesh » Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:58 am UTC

That's strange. Firearms aren't usually something you would expect to be loud. Are you sure it was a firearm?

If you weren't wearing ear protection, try using it next time.

If you were using ear protection, then you should make sure it was working properly by taking off the hearing protection and firing a round. If you are in pain immediately after that and have a persistant ringing in your ears along with difficulty hearing what people are saying, then the hearing protection was working before.
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