[SAFESPACE] People of Colour

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[SAFESPACE] People of Colour

Postby natraj » Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:20 pm UTC

In the vein of the other safespace threads. Rules are pretty straightforward! Everyone is welcome, just be respectful of each other. This isn't a thread for RACISM 101 or anyone justifying their existence/experiences/etc.

It is a thread for support or chatting or venting or anything else anyone feels like posting in it that they want to talk about.

I personally have just, lately, through circumstances not of my choosing, been living in suburbia with my boyfriend and his (upper-middle-class, white) family where occasionally the (upper-middle-class, white) neighbors assume that clearly I must be the hired help because my skin is dark and what else would I be doing in their neighborhood? (When they figure it out they give the Boy very dirty looks like he is such a traitor.)

The Boy himself is nice but utterly clueless, often.

Ergo, I would like a Space. Maybe other people would like a Space too! So here it is. HELLO.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] People of Colour

Postby The Mighty Thesaurus » Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:44 pm UTC

Man, I'm surprised this is just being created.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] People of Colour

Postby podbaydoor » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:13 pm UTC

Hi!

(When they figure it out they give the Boy very dirty looks like he is such a traitor.)

*sigh* Ah yes, the "but there are so many nice white girls that you could date" look.

Though it's not confined to white suburbia. Some of my previous white-bread boyfriends have gotten some very dirty looks from little old Chinese ladies when we're in the supermarket. :lol:

Unrelated:
When (generally white, middle class) people start complaining about affirmative action scholarships, I tell them straight-faced, "I know how you feel. Orientals are the honorary whites, haven't you heard?" And then I see if they pick up on the thickly dripping sarcasm.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] People of Colour

Postby Midnight » Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:21 pm UTC

I passionately dislike people that are against affirmative action. And I've been mental millimeters from punching people in the face when they say
"but affirmative action is racist against you, midnight!"
uhhhh fuck.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] People of Colour

Postby Aaeriele » Tue Jun 14, 2011 5:54 pm UTC

Isn't privilege great? </sarcasm>

People like to frame equality in terms of the status quo, as opposed to actual equality.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] People of Colour

Postby natraj » Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:19 pm UTC

@podbaydoor Oh, yeah, I have no idea what my family is going to think. At least those of them I still speak to. The people closest by will be fine with it but when I take him to my cousin's wedding in India this summer I am sure there are going to be some dirty looks from some people for bringing a white boy with me. :roll:

And re: affirmative action, I don't even know. People can be frustrating. Do they pick up on your sarcasm?


Aaeriele wrote:People like to frame equality in terms of the status quo, as opposed to actual equality.


The status is not quo!
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Re: [SAFESPACE] People of Colour

Postby podbaydoor » Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:08 pm UTC

They never really respond. I think they don't quite know what to make of something so patently offensive coming out of a Chinese-American's mouth, even sarcastically.

What really pisses me off is that the last time someone complained about affirmative action, I was the only non-white person hanging out on that boat. And they looked directly at me when they started ranting. I cut them off directly with, "Asians are screwed over even more than whites when it comes to scholarships. Don't talk to me about scholarships."
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Re: [SAFESPACE] People of Colour

Postby fyrenwater » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:26 pm UTC

Aaeriele wrote:Isn't privilege great? </sarcasm>
Because of your avatar, I read this in Fluttershy's voice. <__<

podbaydoor wrote:Asians are screwed over even more than whites when it comes to scholarships. Don't talk to me about scholarships.
Affirmative Action! Where the model minority gets fucked over because apparently people are threatened by our Asian-ness and strong values about education and hard work! :roll:


I'm liking the idea of this thread. I wanna bring up a discussion topic, if it's cool with everyone.

What is the difference (if any) between "race" and "ethnicity", and what are your definitions and comments about the two?

(My answer spoiler'd below)
Spoiler:
I used to think that "race" was junk, that it was mainly just one: the human race. But as I grow older and more jaded, it's become more of the term for the generalizations, stereotypes, and racist traits others apply to specific groups. Ethnicity is an origin thing, like where your ancestors were from, where your blood comes from, so to speak. Race is the crap that jerks throw out. (e.g. Vietnamese VS "All Asians are the same.", Puerto Rican VS "What are you, Mexican?") Sort of a "this is who I am" VS "this is what (ignorant/racist/etc.) people think I am" thing.

And as much as I would like the whole race thing to disappear, that isn't realistic at all. I mean, that's why we have this thread. It's the year 2011. We can discuss with people across the world as if they were right beside us, yet we still have these issues with racism. *sigh* But I don't let this crap stop me from going out and doing my own thing.
...It made more sense in my head.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] People of Colour

Postby Aaeriele » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:34 pm UTC

fyrenwater wrote:Because of your avatar, I read this in Fluttershy's voice. <__<


^_^
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Re: [SAFESPACE] People of Colour

Postby natraj » Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:01 am UTC

Re: Race vs. ethnicity

Spoiler:
Loosely speaking, I tend to associate ethnicity with cultural grouping and race with... biology? Ethnicity is more like your cultural heritage, social groups, what group/culture you identify with. Race is more to do with your biological heritage than cultural.

I.e., I have a friend who was adopted from Nigeria by a white family over here as an infant. Ethnically, he identifies with his family and their culture and is just a part of their traditions, but as soon as he steps out of the house, he is black. By the definitions in my mind, your ethnicity can change depending on the culture you adopt; until we get some crazy advance transhumanist technology, your race is not ever going to change.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] People of Colour

Postby Chandani » Wed Jun 15, 2011 12:34 am UTC

Race and ethnicity
Spoiler:
I've pretty much totally based my idea of race and ethnicity off a science article (which was written some time ago) so if there have been changes to the science, direct me to the new info, please.
From that article, the idea of there being a genetic race was decently debunked, but ethnic groups shared genetic info stuff.
So now, for me, race=social construct thing which you're put it, and ethnicity=genetic thing/heredity. And then there's nationality, which is what you believe you are (like, American, Canadian, British, etc.)

I've never had anything bad with my experiences with my race/ethnicity thing... which is good. I have a list of pet peeves which bug me, though I'm not sure if that is appropriate for this space (I'm being extra careful).

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Re: [SAFESPACE] People of Colour

Postby Mirko » Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:39 am UTC

This is a good thread, I'm glad it was made. Though, as someone who is white and has experienced discrimination at the hands of other white people on the basis of ethnic origin I want to know exactly how that is different from racial discrimination. I have friends of color and they tell me the experience is not equivalent and I will never be able to understand the experiences of someone of color, but I don't think that's true. Can anyone answer my question?

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Re: [SAFESPACE] People of Colour

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:41 am UTC

Mirko wrote:This is a good thread, I'm glad it was made. Though, as someone who is white and has experienced discrimination at the hands of other white people on the basis of ethnic origin I want to know exactly how that is different from racial discrimination. I have friends of color and they tell me the experience is not equivalent and I will never be able to understand the experiences of someone of color, but I don't think that's true. Can anyone answer my question?

Because you can (probably) walk into a room and not have everyone instantly know just by looking at you. You pretty much have to make a deal of it first before anyone else knows. And fuck it, if everyone in your region knows by looking at you and you move to a new region.. your new neighbors won't. You can't move away from 85% African ancestry.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] People of Colour

Postby Mirko » Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:47 am UTC

SecondTalon wrote:
Mirko wrote:This is a good thread, I'm glad it was made. Though, as someone who is white and has experienced discrimination at the hands of other white people on the basis of ethnic origin I want to know exactly how that is different from racial discrimination. I have friends of color and they tell me the experience is not equivalent and I will never be able to understand the experiences of someone of color, but I don't think that's true. Can anyone answer my question?

Because you can (probably) walk into a room and not have everyone instantly know just by looking at you. You pretty much have to make a deal of it first before anyone else knows. And fuck it, if everyone in your region knows by looking at you and you move to a new region.. your new neighbors won't. You can't move away from 85% African ancestry.

You're right, maybe not by looks, but as soon as I open my mouth to say anything people "know" so there really isn't all that much of a difference. That's not really making a deal of my identity either, which I try not to do, and generally speaking, after a certain age its pretty hard to learn how to talk and act completely differently. I just think discrimination based on identity is discrimination based on identity and people who think they have it worse than others because of the color of their skin are discriminating themselves.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] People of Colour

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:51 am UTC

Then I respectfully submit that you don't understand the situation and ask that you drop it. If you wish to discuss it further, there's the Fleeting Thoughts* thread and the entirety of Serious Business.


*Contrary to it's name and to 95% of it's content, there's serious in-depth conversation that can happen when the subjects arise.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] People of Colour

Postby natraj » Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:51 am UTC

natraj wrote:This isn't a thread for RACISM 101


I am sorry you experience discrimination. That is really terrible, in all its forms.

I have not lived your experiences, and can not understand what they are like. Likewise, you have not lived the experiences of people of color, and cannot understand what those experiences are like.

This thread, however, is not the place to come if you need racism explained to you. There are many resources on available for learning about this kind of thing, please use them or start a new thread instead. Thank you.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] People of Colour

Postby Mirko » Wed Jun 15, 2011 2:59 am UTC

I think this is the right thread for my question though. I'm not complaining about anything, I just trying to understand what my friends are talking about, but as of yet I've not had an answer that satisfies my question. I also don't understand how I don't understand the situation. I know what racism is, but I think that that term is obsolete. Please correct me if you think this is completely off topic. I'm really just trying to understand but if this is supposed to be a safeplace then you shouldn't turn people away for asking legitimate questions, right?

EDIT: I understand why you think I am asking a question that would belong in racism 101, but that's not what I'm getting at at all.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] People of Colour

Postby The Mighty Thesaurus » Wed Jun 15, 2011 3:16 am UTC

We don't take kindly to your kind around here.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] People of Colour

Postby Mirko » Wed Jun 15, 2011 3:22 am UTC

The Mighty Thesaurus wrote:We don't take kindly to your kind around here.

Then its not a very safe space.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] People of Colour

Postby podbaydoor » Wed Jun 15, 2011 3:25 am UTC

You asked a reasonable question but then in one of your answers you turned around and called the people who disagreed with you to be discriminating themselves. And then you called racism obsolete, which smacks of "But we should all be color blind!" That's not a good safespace attitude, it is implicitly invalidating anyone else's experiences.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] People of Colour

Postby The Mighty Thesaurus » Wed Jun 15, 2011 3:28 am UTC

Mirko wrote:
The Mighty Thesaurus wrote:We don't take kindly to your kind around here.

Then its not a very safe space.

This safespace isn't for you.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] People of Colour

Postby natraj » Wed Jun 15, 2011 3:28 am UTC

You seem to be confused about who this thread is a safe space for; though I'm not sure how the confusion arose, it is right there in the title.

As it says in the very first post, this thread is not for coming in and asking Racism-101 questions. It's not for asking people to justify their experiences to you. If you need further clarification on that, this question is not for white people (I'm not making that assumption; you stated that's what you were) to come in and ask people of colour to explain to them about racism, or their experiences, or how X is different from Y, or what does Z mean. You are making this thread an unsafe space for us. It is not meant to be a safe space for you. White people qua white people have everywhere else already. If you can't participate in this thread while respecting the people it was intended for, please do not participate in it.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] People of Colour

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Jun 15, 2011 4:14 am UTC

Completely off topic, I'd like to apologize for my wife's behavior in this thread. She paid absolutely no attention to what thread I was in, simply replied to what I still had open.
If you have no idea what I'm talking about - let's just leave it at that.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] People of Colour

Postby Beardhammer » Wed Jun 15, 2011 4:27 am UTC

natraj wrote:Re: Race vs. ethnicity

Spoiler:
Loosely speaking, I tend to associate ethnicity with cultural grouping and race with... biology? Ethnicity is more like your cultural heritage, social groups, what group/culture you identify with. Race is more to do with your biological heritage than cultural.

I.e., I have a friend who was adopted from Nigeria by a white family over here as an infant. Ethnically, he identifies with his family and their culture and is just a part of their traditions, but as soon as he steps out of the house, he is black. By the definitions in my mind, your ethnicity can change depending on the culture you adopt; until we get some crazy advance transhumanist technology, your race is not ever going to change.


Agreed here. I've seen black people whiter than I am, and I've seen white people blacker than a lot of black people. If that's what you meant, anyway.

As an aside, do non-white, non-rich people even consider themselves "colored" anymore? I guess it's a convenient catch-all phrase for saying "not white and not rich," but it does seem a little... outdated?

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Re: [SAFESPACE] People of Colour

Postby jestingrabbit » Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:57 am UTC

Beardhammer wrote:As an aside, do non-white, non-rich people even consider themselves "colored" anymore? I guess it's a convenient catch-all phrase for saying "not white and not rich," but it does seem a little... outdated?


Colored and Person of Color are have very different histories and shouldn't be confused. Neither have anything to do with class. But again, this isn't racism 101. If you have questions find somewhere else to ask them.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] People of Colour

Postby SurgicalSteel » Wed Jun 15, 2011 6:33 am UTC

Re: affirmative action

I've always seen it as an over-correction. It's discrimination, but in a different direction than is common for the particular society. I've always resented the hell out of it whenever someone said that being Latino really helped me get into college. As if all that hard work I put in in high school and bettering myself didn't really matter. As if I couldn't have done it on my own without being a minority. As if all the white kids who got into my college are better and smarter because they didn't have the "benefit" of their ethnicity to put them at the front of the line. Seriously, I've considered burning my diplomas and doing the whole fucking thing over again, checking the box next to "White" this time. Fuck.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] People of Colour

Postby Plasma Man » Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:23 pm UTC

natraj wrote:The Boy himself is nice but utterly clueless, often.
I have to hold my hand up here & admit that I've been guilty of being similarly clueless with my girlfriend. I have learned more now, but, more importantly, have learned that I still have more to learn. So I suppose what I'm saying is that trying to educate people can work, and that's a good thing.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] People of Colour

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Jun 15, 2011 1:33 pm UTC

This is not a thread to complain affirmative action.

It is, however, a thread where I think it'd be good to share this site with folks. Both to share your own experiences, as well as to show other people examples of all the tiny bits of racism (and other bigotry) that usually go unopposed in our culture, because each one of them on its own may not be significant enough to make a big deal out of.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] People of Colour

Postby natraj » Wed Jun 15, 2011 3:34 pm UTC

Plasma Man wrote:
natraj wrote:The Boy himself is nice but utterly clueless, often.
I have to hold my hand up here & admit that I've been guilty of being similarly clueless with my girlfriend. I have learned more now, but, more importantly, have learned that I still have more to learn. So I suppose what I'm saying is that trying to educate people can work, and that's a good thing.


Oh, yeah, trying to educate people (who are open to it) can definitely work! And I do not mind it, sometimes. It is just that sometimes it is also nice to have conversations that do not consist of needing/being expected to educate people.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] People of Colour

Postby Hammer » Wed Jun 15, 2011 4:07 pm UTC

Mirko wrote:I'm really just trying to understand but if this is supposed to be a safeplace then you shouldn't turn people away for asking legitimate questions, right?

Hi Mirko,

Part of a thread being a safespace is that the people in it do not have to have the "I don't understand and you should now educate me" conversation over and over again as they have to do outside the safespace. It's not that you're being a bad person. It's just that questions of the type you're asking and statements of the type you're making are some of the things that people of colour may need a place to get away from for awhile. This is a safespace for people of colour, not a general racism discussion thread, please. Thanks for respecting that.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] People of Colour

Postby Hammer » Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:19 pm UTC

natraj wrote:when I take him to my cousin's wedding in India this summer I am sure there are going to be some dirty looks from some people for bringing a white boy with me. :roll:

Sounds annoying. When do you have to go do that?
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Re: [SAFESPACE] People of Colour

Postby SamaraLexx » Thu Jun 16, 2011 4:03 pm UTC

natraj wrote:I am sure there are going to be some dirty looks from some people for bringing a white boy with me.


As an Indian girl marrying a white guy in two days, dear lord do I hear that. Oddly enough, when we were in San Francisco, we got SO many dirty looks from Indian guys as we walked down the street holding hands. Never noticed that here in NY, just there.

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Re: [SAFESPACE] People of Colour

Postby podbaydoor » Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:39 pm UTC

My parents were just dismayed that my cousin was marrying a...*lowers voice to a whisper* Pakistani.

My sister and I were like, "So?" This led to a discussion where it emerged that my mother would never kick a one of our partners out of the house, she would be polite, but she just wouldn't be able to approve of someone who wasn't Chinese.
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Re: [SAFESPACE] People of Colour

Postby natraj » Sat Jun 18, 2011 1:17 am UTC

@Hammer: I don't know why I said summer, I am apparently just spacey about seasons (or secretly think I'm living in the opposite hemisphere.) My cousin's wedding is in January, Boy is probably going to take some of the massive amounts of vacation time he's been accruing so we can hang out in India for a couple weeks rather than just go to the wedding and come back. My closest family there is awesome so I don't think it will be a problem, but the more conservative extended-extended family have been pretty unaccepting in the past about lots and lots of things.

@Samara: Oooh. Congrats on your marriage :D That is awesome. Well, not the dirty looks. Just the marriage part!

@podbaydoor: Mrgh. Sometimes that attitude is the hardest. I know with my family at least it can be harder to confront because they are like "Well we are being polite!" But if they really don't approve anyway it tends to show through no matter what and make things uncomfortable.
You want to know the future, love? Then wait:
I'll answer your impatient questions. Still --
They'll call it chance, or luck, or call it Fate,
The cards and stars that tumble as they will.

pronouns: they or he

Bassoon
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Re: [SAFESPACE] People of Colour

Postby Bassoon » Sat Jun 18, 2011 3:43 am UTC

Hi.

I dunno how to really post this here. I'm not a person of color--at least, my skin color isn't dark. But I have Native American heritage, and I really hate how people always say that I pretty much can't be Native American because I don't have the "stereotypical" features of Native Americans: dark skin, a face that apparently doesn't match the Redskin's mascot...it just bothers me. Why do I have to be a stereotype to claim a heritage which I feel is an important part of my life? Eh. I still dunno if this truly fits here, but it's the only place that I think it fits that isn't the rant thread or the random thread.

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modularblues
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Re: [SAFESPACE] People of Colour

Postby modularblues » Sat Jun 18, 2011 9:04 am UTC

podbaydoor wrote:Orientals are the honorary whites, haven't you heard?

Hear, hear!!

Diane Farr wrote this article about her own experiences. Makes me wonder sometimes, but perhaps there is hope for some. (Unrelated: She's awesome in Numb3rs)

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natraj
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Re: [SAFESPACE] People of Colour

Postby natraj » Sat Jun 18, 2011 3:45 pm UTC

Bassoon, you're certainly welcome here and there was nothing unfitting about your post.

People imposing their ideas of You Are Not X Enough is something I always hate, like there is some uniform everyone has to wear to be properly a member of their race/ethnicity.

Also, I was using the term person of colour like so, not as any reference to skin tone. I'm sorry if it isn't one you identify with; I was trying to make the thread title as inclusive as possible.
You want to know the future, love? Then wait:
I'll answer your impatient questions. Still --
They'll call it chance, or luck, or call it Fate,
The cards and stars that tumble as they will.

pronouns: they or he

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podbaydoor
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Re: [SAFESPACE] People of Colour

Postby podbaydoor » Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:15 pm UTC

modularblues wrote:
podbaydoor wrote:Orientals are the honorary whites, haven't you heard?

Hear, hear!!

Diane Farr wrote this article about her own experiences. Makes me wonder sometimes, but perhaps there is hope for some. (Unrelated: She's awesome in Numb3rs)

I like this article. It's very much a hidden part, and frustrating.
tenet |ˈtenit|
noun
a principle or belief, esp. one of the main principles of a religion or philosophy : the tenets of classical liberalism.
tenant |ˈtenənt|
noun
a person who occupies land or property rented from a landlord.

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ginadagny
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Re: [SAFESPACE] People of Colour

Postby ginadagny » Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:45 pm UTC

Hi everyone, surprised I haven't posted here yet :D

I think some people might remember me addressing a comment someone made to me about me being 'too pretty to be Native' and how hurtful that was. Well, this Vancouver model knows the hurt too.

Oh, and Happy Aboriginal Day! Hopefully Vancouver will have some fun things to do :3

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natraj
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Re: [SAFESPACE] People of Colour

Postby natraj » Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:02 pm UTC

In "incidents that should maybe have been upsetting but ended up just being funny instead", I was hanging out with a couple of my friends in New York a little while ago and some dude walking down the street kind of shoulder-checked my friend J. J turned around and just said "Excuse me" kind of bemusedly, whereupon the guy who had (clearly intentionally) run into him got all chest-puffy and said "Shut up, spic."

We all sort of eyed each other and J looked amused (which made the other guy just look more chestpuffy and angry) and J was like "Uh... I realize my skin is kind of tan, ish, and it's hard to tell all of us apart, but actually I'm Thai. /He's/ Mexican, though. [pointing to our other friend in the group] You could try again if you like!"

The guy just looked sort of flustered and made some more muttery noises about shutting up before continuing on his way. The rest of us were all kind of cracking up, though. It must be really confusing for the bigots when there are just too many not-white people HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT INSULTS TO PICK.
You want to know the future, love? Then wait:
I'll answer your impatient questions. Still --
They'll call it chance, or luck, or call it Fate,
The cards and stars that tumble as they will.

pronouns: they or he


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