Boy Thread: put a hat on ur butt

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Re: Boy Thread: put a hat on ur butt

Postby Quercus » Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:23 am UTC

I think that either way it really comes down to issues of definition. "Man" to some is tied up with all sorts of aspirational characteristics - honour, responsibility etc. To others it's tied up with the negative flipsides of these characteristics - dominance, violence etc. To others it's simply being an adult human male.

To answer the question myself, I feel like a man sometimes, and not at other times. I probably feel most like a man when I'm taking on leadership roles. Living on my own, earning my own money and paying for all of my own stuff was probably a big point at which I started being able to say "I am a man" more often than not.

There are probably similar issues in the girl-woman continuum, but as I have no direct experience of that (not even vicariously through a sister/daughter) I shall refrain from commenting.

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Re: Boy Thread: put a hat on ur butt

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:33 pm UTC

bigglesworth wrote:On the contrary, I think boys become men by default by acting on their own in the public sphere.

It is the girl => woman issue that gets drawn out and is complicated.

See the Mademoiselle => Madame messy boundaries - or the Miss/Ms/Mrs differences.

I don't agree with you. I think there are just vastly different, and unfair in their own ways, expectations upon boys and girls, which along with differing societal expectations makes for different perceptions of masculinity and femininity in the context of maturity.

For example, I find discussing with peers sports injuries to be a wholly valid place to express aches and pains. A friend of mine almost died a few years ago of some kind of bowel obstruction, and was wholly unable to talk about it with his family/peers. My dad had his prostate... I dunno, somethingsomething'd, they blasted it with IR to reduce swelling, and he would barely utter a peep about it (though, to be fair to my dad, he is more vocal than most I know about medical issues and communicating problems with his body), but when he had one of his hips replaced, everyone and their mother got to see the scar and hear about the experience.

Similarly, in my own workspace, I find the ability to express frustrations to be different between myself (the only male oriented person in lab now) and everyone else (all female oriented), wherein most of my anxieties about public speaking or speaking with visiting big wigs are met with a 'suck it up', compared to the reassurance of competence and talent and qualifications given to the others.

Please understand, I'm not suggesting that I, a white heterosexual male, have gotten the short end of the stick here, by any stretch of the mind. But I don't think the expectations for maturity on men are simply 'start acting like an adult'.
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Re: Boy Thread: put a hat on ur butt

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:34 pm UTC

addams wrote:I am sorry, Izawwood;
No. I don't want you to suffer.
I don't even know you.

But. But; but, You are funny and many injuries of the extraordinarily fit are hysterical.
Normal people can't do those things.

Izswood; Beyond the laughter we have been enriched by your posts.
You bitching about your father may be good for you. I love to giggle.
Also, I caught this, and thank you :D
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Re: Boy Thread: put a hat on ur butt

Postby bigglesworth » Fri Aug 29, 2014 12:49 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:in the context of maturity.
I don't really feel your post addressed this context.
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Re: Boy Thread: put a hat on ur butt

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:55 pm UTC

True, it was a somewhat tangential point. I'm admittedly sort of hesitant at the moment to get into it however. For now, I'll leave it at I feel the definition of masculine maturity is not simply 'self-sufficiency in the public sphere'.
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Re: Boy Thread: put a hat on ur butt

Postby addams » Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:02 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:True, it was a somewhat tangential point. I'm admittedly sort of hesitant at the moment to get into it however. For now, I'll leave it at I feel the definition of masculine maturity is not simply 'self-sufficiency in the public sphere'.

I like the way you post.
Please; How do we measure masculine maturity?

I am willing to try to meet some of those standards.
What are those standards?

How do we define masculine maturity?
Somehow; For some reason, I seem to think it both does and does not have much to to with Physical Strength.

Can a Man really feel like a Man, if he can't stand on his own two feet?
(oh, jeeze. I answered my own question, while I was writing it.)

ok. I know the answer for me.
What do you think?
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Re: Boy Thread: put a hat on ur butt

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:29 pm UTC

I think you touch on a few things. I think there are a few other things as well. I'll have to dig up links when I can.

For example, fathers are considered more reliable hires by companies, while mothers less reliable, and to this end, men are more likely to receive salary increases if they have children, while women are less likely. Which is totally fucking backwards, if you ask me, but the point still stands that one definition of masculinity could be 'being a parent'. Note I didn't say 'being a father', since evidently men aren't expected to baby rear in this equation.

Another could be the disposability of bodies. Men and women are under different expectations for how their bodies are to be treated. For women, this is more obvious, since it's (rightfully) gotten a lot of attention; women are sexually objectified. What is perhaps less obvious, or at least, less discussed, and perhaps in some ways, still extant, is that mens bodies are physically objectified insofar as being told their bodies are forfeit for labor, for wars, and for 'being tough'. Cowboys limp a mile on a broken leg, the image of blue collar workers ground down by a lifetime of working the mines/mills/factories, soldiers with 1,000 mile stares (think of how PTSD is only in the last... what, 20 years? being discussed and addressed compared to physical injuries?). 'Man up'. Just as it's seriously problematic to convey to women that their value to society is being sexual objects and/or baby making machines, it's equally problematic to convey to men that their value to society is in sacrificing their bodies at the altar of labor or wars.

Getting back to the sexual expectation differences, women are pressured to remain pure and chaste, while men are pressured to rack up trophies. This inversion is obvious, but it underlines a pretty important point about something that's expected of maturity in femininity and masculinity. This point, I feel, is largely to blame for a lot of issues we see in the patriarchy, since humans are pretty obsessed with sex and sex is in large part, I feel, influencing how men and women behave or are expected to behave.

Anyway, I got into this way more than I wanted to, as I'm not particularly eloquently describing this, worried that it ruffles too many feathers, and not terribly well informed or up to date on feminism and what's been going on in the last... I dunno, decade or so on this front.
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Re: Boy Thread: put a hat on ur butt

Postby Shro » Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:54 pm UTC

Quercus wrote:
Shro wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:I find myself having mild anxiety attacks at night at the idea of being incapable of using my body the way I want to.

Now imagine having a uterus.


A uterus doesn't (usually) stop you climbing, I know this because I once stumbled upon a very long and detailed thread on a climbing forum on exactly how it doesn't have to stop you climbing. :shock:
Sungura wrote:But I get what Shro was saying (I think...she can correct me if I'm wrong), some (re: many) women deal with shitty uterus issues /every fucking month/ that do physically make it extremely difficult if not impossible to do things, especially physical activity.


What I meant was I feel you about the anxiety about being incapable of using my body the way I want it to. Not just because of periods- I'm actually pretty lucky in that regard. I mean the emotional toll of trying to deal with outside forces that cause you to not have complete bodily autonomy is a crazy whirlwind of emotions. There are lots of people trying to decide what I should be able to do with my uterus for me, so I feel that loss of control. What I wanted to do with my post is start of a bit of a conversation, obviously, but also to reassure you about those feels bro; cause I have them. There's all kinds of stuff mixed up in there, like anger that I might actually be limited in what I'm able to do, fear that a situation might occur where I'm incapable of doing what I would like to do, annoyance that it's something I even have to think about, and guilt because in the grand scheme of things, I have it pretty good.

Izawwlgood wrote:I don't agree with you. I think there are just vastly different, and unfair in their own ways, expectations upon boys and girls, which along with differing societal expectations makes for different perceptions of masculinity and femininity in the context of maturity.

For example, I find discussing with peers sports injuries to be a wholly valid place to express aches and pains. A friend of mine almost died a few years ago of some kind of bowel obstruction, and was wholly unable to talk about it with his family/peers. My dad had his prostate... I dunno, somethingsomething'd, they blasted it with IR to reduce swelling, and he would barely utter a peep about it (though, to be fair to my dad, he is more vocal than most I know about medical issues and communicating problems with his body), but when he had one of his hips replaced, everyone and their mother got to see the scar and hear about the experience.

Similarly, in my own workspace, I find the ability to express frustrations to be different between myself (the only male oriented person in lab now) and everyone else (all female oriented), wherein most of my anxieties about public speaking or speaking with visiting big wigs are met with a 'suck it up', compared to the reassurance of competence and talent and qualifications given to the others.

Please understand, I'm not suggesting that I, a white heterosexual male, have gotten the short end of the stick here, by any stretch of the mind. But I don't think the expectations for maturity on men are simply 'start acting like an adult'.


Which is why I wanted to relate to you on your feels about your injury. Because I am trying to be empathetic, and not purely sympathetic, I wanted to draw from my own experiences to share with you (and kind of prove to you) that I can speak about these feeling and have thought about them sufficiently to help you extricate value from them. Admittedly, my first post could have been a little bit more explanatory, but I've found that sometimes when a female shares her (female) experiences with males, the males think that it's trying to make it about us, where it's really about trying to find some common ground to discuss/have a conversation - and often times it's very much dismissed as "anecdotal". While I appreciate the rigor needed for a discussion about different topics, I worry about being sniped with this kind of discussion when I am trying to talk about feelings/what you're experiencing/etc. I have a sort of fear discussing these emotional things with males because of these tendencies that I have noticed (n is sufficiently anecdotal; I know a lot of people and am very friendly/open): telling me I'm wrong because I don't have evidence, and the fact then when I present feelings of my own, being accused about making it about me.

I appreciate you all trying to interpret my pretty cryptic post there, and do apologize for not explaining it further.

Because we've stuck men with this "suck it up" mentality, it's very difficult for them not to get help, but to even ask for it. Asking for help threatens that ideal of being responsible - if you can't do something, it means you've failed in your responsibility and asking for help is the representation of that failure. I'm very sad about the emotional state of boys and men in our society - but my knowledge/desire to help/motivation comes from a feminist background which turns off a lot of people. I just try really hard to get people to realize that our human problems are shared - and that it's by sharing our problems that our burdens are a little bit lighter for all of us. I know it sounds hokey to some, but I sincerely believe if I have to go a little out of my way to help someone a lot, it is my moral obligation to do so. So how can we make it easier for boys and men to ask for help? What kinds of environments are you comfortable in asking for help? How often do you feel like you just need to talk about something but don't have anyone you trust to express these things to?
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Re: Boy Thread: put a hat on ur butt

Postby addams » Fri Aug 29, 2014 4:30 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:I think you touch on a few things. I think there are a few other things as well. I'll have to dig up links when I can.

For example, fathers are considered more reliable hires by companies, while mothers less reliable, and to this end, men are more likely to receive salary increases if they have children, while women are less likely. Which is totally fucking backwards, if you ask me, but the point still stands that one definition of masculinity could be 'being a parent'. Note I didn't say 'being a father', since evidently men aren't expected to baby rear in this equation.

Another could be the disposability of bodies. Men and women are under different expectations for how their bodies are to be treated. For women, this is more obvious, since it's (rightfully) gotten a lot of attention; women are sexually objectified. What is perhaps less obvious, or at least, less discussed, and perhaps in some ways, still extant, is that mens bodies are physically objectified insofar as being told their bodies are forfeit for labor, for wars, and for 'being tough'. Cowboys limp a mile on a broken leg, the image of blue collar workers ground down by a lifetime of working the mines/mills/factories, soldiers with 1,000 mile stares (think of how PTSD is only in the last... what, 20 years? being discussed and addressed compared to physical injuries?). 'Man up'. Just as it's seriously problematic to convey to women that their value to society is being sexual objects and/or baby making machines, it's equally problematic to convey to men that their value to society is in sacrificing their bodies at the altar of labor or wars.


Anyway, I got into this way more than I wanted to, as I'm not particularly eloquently describing this, worried that it ruffles too many feathers, and not terribly well informed or up to date on feminism and what's been going on in the last... I dunno, decade or so on this front.

I still like the way you post.
The sex thing is (big sigh) well....

This is the Boys Thread.
You don't Have To know anything about the Current Art and Current Currents in the Feminist Community.

We are discussing Boys.
Boys are fun. I know.

Not all boys are fun.
Most start out as a Riot of One.

Men and Women are the same animal.
How do we know? They breed.

Like other animals, the Male and the Female are often a little different.
The issue of a Man's Physical Labor being that Man's Worth.

We have a Long and Dark History.
Men have abused Men.

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Re: Boy Thread: put a hat on ur butt

Postby bigglesworth » Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:04 pm UTC

Shro wrote:So how can we make it easier for boys and men to ask for help? What kinds of environments are you comfortable in asking for help? How often do you feel like you just need to talk about something but don't have anyone you trust to express these things to?
I think for many men... Well, as many people feel, their mothers are saints, my mother was beyond criticism. But I think this stoicism starts in childhood. And not (just) from the male role models in boys lives. My father worked very long hours, I don't think I could possibly have got that much influence from the pure father-son interaction during my childhood. It's in the grateful smiles my mother would give me for just... existing. For just being there and not complaining, unlike my sister - who did so constantly. Note that I said complaining - It's so ingrained in me that I have no idea whether it was a justified amount of asking for help and sympathy, or was in fact excessive complaining. Still, I get a lot of positive feedback from the women in my life for being stoic, a rock to put burdens on. With other men it's a default, the stoicism, but on the rare occasions negative emotions do open up in a big way, they've been very supportive - awkwardness, sure, but never the negativity, shock, anger from women that I've known when asking for emotional help. Don't get me wrong, I've received great emotional support and understanding from women. But that difference does exist IME.

There aren't many purely male environments where understanding can be had and shared - they have to be disguised as other things like sports clubs, trenches, heavy drinking sessions.

This doesn't fully answer your questions, but I hope it contains some truth and advances the discourse somewhat.
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Re: Boy Thread: put a hat on ur butt

Postby addams » Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:15 pm UTC

It was beautiful.
It rings true, like a well tuned bell.

Everyone Loves a Rock.
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Re: Boy Thread: put a hat on ur butt

Postby Quercus » Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:50 pm UTC

Shro wrote:Because we've stuck men with this "suck it up" mentality, it's very difficult for them not to get help, but to even ask for it. Asking for help threatens that ideal of being responsible - if you can't do something, it means you've failed in your responsibility and asking for help is the representation of that failure. I'm very sad about the emotional state of boys and men in our society - but my knowledge/desire to help/motivation comes from a feminist background which turns off a lot of people. I just try really hard to get people to realize that our human problems are shared - and that it's by sharing our problems that our burdens are a little bit lighter for all of us. I know it sounds hokey to some, but I sincerely believe if I have to go a little out of my way to help someone a lot, it is my moral obligation to do so. So how can we make it easier for boys and men to ask for help? What kinds of environments are you comfortable in asking for help? How often do you feel like you just need to talk about something but don't have anyone you trust to express these things to?


Major props for this post (the whole thing). It is 100% pure high grade win as far as I am concerned. Those are big questions you pose, so I'm probably going to have to do some more thinking before addressing them properly, but here's a start:


  • In terms of making it easier to ask for help one thing that I've had issues with personally is the recognition of "I don't know" as a valid response to how I feel about something. When I've been asked how I feel about something and responded "I don't know" I've sometimes been accused of being evasive, or deliberately hiding my feelings. In actuality I often genuinely don't know how I feel about things. In fact there's some things about which I never manage to work out how I feel before they get resolved.
  • The other thing which is quite important (this probably isn't male specific) is to identify whether someone coming to you to help wants support, solutions or both. I think it's best if the person coming for help is proactive about this, but sometimes they are not clued in enough for that. I know since I worked this one out I will actually say things like "I'm not looking for answers, I just want some support" or conversely "I'm not really ready to talk about how I feel about this, but I'd like to see if you had any practical ideas". If the asker doesn't specify I'd say its a great idea to ask.
  • In terms of environments, I know I am personally more comfortable talking about emotional/personal stuff in a written environment than a spoken or face-to-face one. I feel I retain more control, and have more time for reflection in such an environment.
  • As for your last question I'd say that very much depends on the man in question - I have a very close relationship with my parents, so I can go to them for most things, and I think lots of men go to their partner/spouse by default, but beyond that there's a lot of areas that social expectation precludes one from discussing with friends, particularly male friends (probably because of the quasi-competetive dynamic of many male friendships). For an example see Izawwlgood's post on which health problems are discussed by men and which are barely mentioned.

Edit: Just wanted to add that if a feminist background is turning people off then they either haven't understood feminism properly, or are not really worth bothering with in the first place.

Shro wrote:Admittedly, my first post could have been a little bit more explanatory, but I've found that sometimes when a female shares her (female) experiences with males, the males think that it's trying to make it about us, where it's really about trying to find some common ground to discuss/have a conversation - and often times it's very much dismissed as "anecdotal". While I appreciate the rigor needed for a discussion about different topics, I worry about being sniped with this kind of discussion when I am trying to talk about feelings/what you're experiencing/etc. I have a sort of fear discussing these emotional things with males because of these tendencies that I have noticed (n is sufficiently anecdotal; I know a lot of people and am very friendly/open): telling me I'm wrong because I don't have evidence, and the fact then when I present feelings of my own, being accused about making it about me.


I think a lot of this stems from the very direct problem -> solution approach that many men have. As has been discussed many men are conditioned that it's only the objective, practical solution that matters, and the emotional/subjective experience is an irrelevant distraction from actually getting "the job" done. If a man sees their own emotions as irrelevant, then they're also likely to see another's emotions as irrelevant, and dismiss them as you have experienced. I've presented a rather extreme case there, but I think many men have these issues to a degree, and I know I struggle to be emotionally open a fair bit.
Edit: this doesn't preclude the fact that this also happens because some men are dicks.

Thanks for being so honest here - on a personal level I'm slowly learning as I get older how to pay more attention to my emotional self, and more challengingly, how to be more open with it, so this sort of discussion is really helpful for me.

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Re: Boy Thread: put a hat on ur butt

Postby Sungura » Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:54 pm UTC

bigglesworth wrote:
Shro wrote:So how can we make it easier for boys and men to ask for help? What kinds of environments are you comfortable in asking for help? How often do you feel like you just need to talk about something but don't have anyone you trust to express these things to?
I think for many men... Well, as many people feel, their mothers are saints, my mother was beyond criticism. But I think this stoicism starts in childhood. And not (just) from the male role models in boys lives. My father worked very long hours, I don't think I could possibly have got that much influence from the pure father-son interaction during my childhood. It's in the grateful smiles my mother would give me for just... existing. For just being there and not complaining, unlike my sister - who did so constantly. Note that I said complaining - It's so ingrained in me that I have no idea whether it was a justified amount of asking for help and sympathy, or was in fact excessive complaining. Still, I get a lot of positive feedback from the women in my life for being stoic, a rock to put burdens on. With other men it's a default, the stoicism, but on the rare occasions negative emotions do open up in a big way, they've been very supportive - awkwardness, sure, but never the negativity, shock, anger from women that I've known when asking for emotional help. Don't get me wrong, I've received great emotional support and understanding from women. But that difference does exist IME.

There aren't many purely male environments where understanding can be had and shared - they have to be disguised as other things like sports clubs, trenches, heavy drinking sessions.

This doesn't fully answer your questions, but I hope it contains some truth and advances the discourse somewhat.

If you don't mind a followup, as I'm trying to understand more myself, because I have never understood this social dichotomy; the whole "man up" line of thinking I have always thought was stupid..... How could women be more approachable? I mean, when I ask how someone is, I really want to know. If I get a washout answer I usually follow up with more specific questions. To use the shoulder injury example, a followup might be "How did your appointment go, will you get full range back?" and maybe somewhere down the line of conversation ask if they'd like cookies (because I like to bake and I often bake cookies for friends going through things). Is that seen as weird, or helpful?

I will make note I am aspie, and I tend to be straight about things and I assume people are straight with me, so I may not read social cues as well as I could (it's always a work in progress). If someone is hiding emotions, I might not notice. Friends say I listen well, but I also have a tendency to give advice that is sometimes not required/welcomed and I know that can be off-putting; it is hard for me to gauge sometimes when ideas are wanted vs not. I am not sure if it is more beacause women aren't supposed to be problem solvers. Which is kinda separate but same question - do men feel like they have to solve problems because it's a societal thing that expects them to? I mean...I think people forget, it's okay to not have the answers, yet it is often expected in a similar vein of "man up" to have the answer. And then this makes the emotions get ignored because it jumps from problem to solution, without dealing with those "silly emotions". I could speak out of turn there, but I notice that in myself, at least. I went through a period in life of about five years where I refused to feel anything, and it took a lot of work to be able to listen to my emotions again, and I still have a tendency to jump from problem to solution without working on how the problem has made me feel. Or does that not ring true at all? I realize ya'all may have different answers to that.
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Re: Boy Thread: put a hat on ur butt

Postby addams » Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:58 pm UTC

I'd like to discuss this part.
I have heard this over and over.


I think a lot of this stems from the very direct problem -> solution approach that many men have. As has been discussed many men are conditioned that it's only the objective, practical solution that matters, and the emotional/subjective experience is an irrelevant distraction from actually getting "the job" done. If a man sees their own emotions as irrelevant, then they're also likely to see another's emotions as irrelevant, and dismiss them as you have experienced. I've presented a rather extreme case there, but I think many men have these issues to a degree, and I know I struggle to be emotionally open a fair bit.
Edit: this doesn't preclude the fact that this also happens because some men are dicks.


Men do solutions.
Women do feeling.

If Men would, just, get in touch with their feelings....how much better the would would be.

Well...I have issues.
I have issues with the notion.

Fuck getting in touch with my feelings.
Fuck getting in touch with your feelings.

Does this fucking Truck run or Not??
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Boy Thread: put a hat on ur butt

Postby Quercus » Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:44 pm UTC

I know you asked for a followup from bigglesworth, but I hope you don't mind other people chipping in with their thoughts.

Sungura wrote:I mean, when I ask how someone is, I really want to know. If I get a washout answer I usually follow up with more specific questions. To use the shoulder injury example, a followup might be "How did your appointment go, will you get full range back?" and maybe somewhere down the line of conversation ask if they'd like cookies (because I like to bake and I often bake cookies for friends going through things). Is that seen as weird, or helpful?


The cookies - always good, under any circumstances. The follow up questions - that really depends on your relationship with the man. In my mind if it's a friend it's always helpful and it shows you care about them. If it's just an acquaintance, it's always fine to ask, but be prepared to accept a "brush-off" answer with good grace, because they may or may not be comfortable talking about whatever it is with you - that's not your fault and there's really nothing you can do about it, some men are just more reserved about these things than others.

I think that as for why you get a washout answer to "how are you?" in the first place, that's really just a social expectation in general - I've given an "honest" answer to "how are you?" and got some really weird looks as if to say "I was only being polite, I don't actually want to hear about your problems".

Sungura wrote:do men feel like they have to solve problems because it's a societal thing that expects them to?


Well, possibly, but if so it's really deeply ingrained. I was actually taken aback by this question for a bit, because my thoughts were "solving problems is a good thing self-evidently, we have to solve problems because there are problems that need solving, surely everyone needs to solve problems?". So yes, there is a need/drive to solve problems (at least in my case), but I'd always thought of it more as a fundamental part of the human condition than a male societal expectation. I know that there are circumstances in which it is inappropriate to try and solve the problem (like when it isn't your problem and you've not been asked for advice), but that's always been a concious step - I restrain my intrinsic desire to solve the problem because I've learned it's not appropriate.

This is actually an interesting point - do some women (or indeed some men) not feel an immediate drive to try to solve problems? I'd never even considered that that might be the case.


Sungura wrote: I also have a tendency to give advice that is sometimes not required/welcomed and I know that can be off-putting; it is hard for me to gauge sometimes when ideas are wanted vs not.


I have struggled with this myself, and eventually I reached the conclusion that I'm probably never going to be able to gauge this reliably and the best solution is just to ask directly - if I'm not 100% sure if my ideas are wanted I will literally say something like "I've got some thoughts on how you could go about dealing with this, but If you just want hugs and cookies that's fine too".


Sungura wrote:I could speak out of turn there, but I notice that in myself, at least. I went through a period in life of about five years where I refused to feel anything, and it took a lot of work to be able to listen to my emotions again, and I still have a tendency to jump from problem to solution without working on how the problem has made me feel. Or does that not ring true at all? I realize ya'all may have different answers to that.


That rings totally true with me - I certainly have a hard time giving my emotions proper weight. Another thing that I find challenging is being okay with the fact that emotions aren't exactly logical - I get frustrated when what I'm feeling isn't what I "should" logically be feeling in a given situation.

addams wrote:Fuck getting in touch with my feelings.
Fuck getting in touch with your feelings.


I'd say that first statement is fine in general terms (whether it's optimal is another matter, it might be optimal for you, I know it's not optimal for me). The second statement is bordering on not fine however (IMO) - just because you're happy not getting in touch with your feelings doesn't really give you the right to invalidate someone else's feelings. Obviously there are exceptions to this - in an emergency situation it has to be problem->solution, problem->solution, but in day to day life things often aren't quite that direct for lots of people.

P.S. Wonder of wonders, I think we might have actually managed to start a serious conversation in the boy thread! Nobody drop the ball now, we're doing so well!

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Re: Boy Thread: put a hat on ur butt

Postby addams » Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:59 pm UTC

ok.
It's a nit picky thing.

But; I have run into problems with it recently.
I was hip deep in solving some difficult problems,
Some woman wanted to stop the project because she had feelings.

ok. fine.
What kind of feelings?

Not one thing that had one thing to do with the project.
The plan had been made and it was still a Go.

But; she had feelings.
What were these feelings?

I listened for a while.
Then I decided it had Nothing to do with me or the Project.

I guess, It is offensive to me that I can go to work and get The Job done no matter What the Fuck I Feel.
yet; I must Stop and Give a Shit about Shit I don't Give a Shit about, because you have feelings.

Does it have anything to do with me?
Does it have anything to do with this Project?

If not, I Don't Care.
Sometimes, what I think of you is none of your business.
A lot of times, I don't think of you. Live with it.

One of the nice things about working with a good team of men.
We will talk about feelings, at Break or Never.

Well...feelings.
How is that shoulder?
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

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Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Boy Thread: put a hat on ur butt

Postby Quercus » Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:05 am UTC

addams wrote:ok.
It's a nit picky thing.

But; I have run into problems with it recently.
I was hip deep in solving some difficult problems,
Some woman wanted to stop the project because she had feelings.

ok. fine.
What kind of feelings?

Not one thing that had one thing to do with the project.
The plan had been made and it was still a Go.

But; she had feelings.
What were these feelings?

I listened for a while.
Then I decided it had Nothing to do with me or the Project.

I guess, It is offensive to me that I can go to work and get The Job done no matter What the Fuck I Feel.
yet; I must Stop and Give a Shit about Shit I don't Give a Shit about, because you have feelings.

Does it have anything to do with me?
Does it have anything to do with this Project?

If not, I Don't Care.
Sometimes, what I think of you is none of your business.
A lot of times, I don't think of you. Live with it.

One of the nice things about working with a good team of men.
We will talk about feelings, at Break or Never.

Well...feelings.
How is that shoulder?


Okay that's different to what I was thinking - feelings which interfere with other people's productivity at work should be saved for breaks, except I guess if there are really serious immediate issues, but that's simply professionalism in my mind.

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Re: Boy Thread: put a hat on ur butt

Postby doogly » Sat Aug 30, 2014 1:18 am UTC

Quercus wrote:That rings totally true with me - I certainly have a hard time giving my emotions proper weight. Another thing that I find challenging is being okay with the fact that emotions aren't exactly logical - I get frustrated when what I'm feeling isn't what I "should" logically be feeling in a given situation.

Emotion / logic dichotomies are thought poison. Gotta read your Hume.
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Re: Boy Thread: put a hat on ur butt

Postby addams » Sat Aug 30, 2014 1:38 am UTC

doogly wrote:
Quercus wrote:That rings totally true with me - I certainly have a hard time giving my emotions proper weight. Another thing that I find challenging is being okay with the fact that emotions aren't exactly logical - I get frustrated when what I'm feeling isn't what I "should" logically be feeling in a given situation.

Emotion / logic dichotomies are thought poison. Gotta read your Hume.

WAT?

It is a fucked up situation when what we Feel does not fit what we Should Feel.
Who is Hume?
How the Hell is that going to help me at a Grave Site?

Good Little Boy Scouts learn to be prepared.
We are prepared for most stuff.
We walk in knowing who we are, what we are doing and how we feel.

Then....what?

In Tao, there is some talk of what is beyond words.
We can't capture everything with words.

Some of the Best Stuff is shared, without words.

Talk about our feelings?
We hang out; Don't we?

We don't always have to talk about it.
Not right away.

Sometimes I think putting a few miles under our feet, first, is a good idea.
By the time we sit down to rest, well....

That.
What ever That is......

Take paper and pen.
We might need to write a plan for Re-Entry.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Boy Thread: put a hat on ur butt

Postby Sungura » Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:25 am UTC

doogly wrote:
Quercus wrote:That rings totally true with me - I certainly have a hard time giving my emotions proper weight. Another thing that I find challenging is being okay with the fact that emotions aren't exactly logical - I get frustrated when what I'm feeling isn't what I "should" logically be feeling in a given situation.

Emotion / logic dichotomies are thought poison. Gotta read your Hume.

Indeed, yet I struggle with it. I do like Hume though.

Quercus - thanks, yeah i meant the post for everyone just quoted for that thought train :-) very helpful reply! I am not sure if everyone is problem solving orientated...i was brought up that men solve problems women feel emotions instead. I alwats felt broken because i tend to be more "yeah that sucks and etc, but im going to do this about it to fix it". In my life ive always had way more male friends than female and i just figured it was because of how im straightforward n all and im not good at social games.
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Re: Boy Thread: put a hat on ur butt

Postby addams » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:15 am UTC

We've got Women all over the Boys Thread.
That's ok.

They are Big Boys.
We can discuss Men's issues.
They can read it and respond, I suppose.

The US had a panel of Men discuss Women issues.
The US has become the Standard for how Not To Do It.

Let's do it the US way.
I am an American, after all.

Or; We could do it The Other Way.
We could discuss How Women Make Men UnHappy and UnComforatble.
We can discuss How Women Make Men Feel All Weird Inside.

Women do it to each other.
Loads of men know they get off easy.

As mean as women are to men,
They are meaner to each other.

We are Tough on our own.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Boy Thread: put a hat on ur butt

Postby Quercus » Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:52 pm UTC

Sungura wrote: I alwats felt broken because I tend to be more "yeah that sucks and etc, but im going to do this about it to fix it".


There's an awful sort of irony in feeling broken because you are good at fixing things. I'm sorry that you were made to feel that way.

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Re: Boy Thread: put a hat on ur butt

Postby addams » Sat Aug 30, 2014 5:32 pm UTC

yeah.
I am sorry you were made to feel that way, too.

We could turn it into a Support Group for Victums of the Touchy Feely.
Have you ever had someone of the Touchy Feely Type, tell you What You Feel and What You Think and How That is Wrong?

Even not touchy feely types will tell me, what I feel, what I think and what I should do about that.
What the Fuck?

I may not be the most sensitive of persons.
Still....I'd like to have some say.

ok.
Something is Wrong?
Or; Something is Right?

With a Man that misses his Truck and that is about All he misses?

"Why did she take your Truck, Man?"
"Because, she knew I liked that Truck."

I know it goes both ways.
"Why did they take your home and business, Lady?"
Because, they knew it gave me Freedom.

Same fucking thing. really.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Boy Thread: put a hat on ur butt

Postby You, sir, name? » Sat Aug 30, 2014 6:13 pm UTC

RE: Problem solving. I think it's a personality type...? If someone comes to me with a problem, I cannot help but suggest solutions. If they come with a solution to a problem, I will point to its flaws (because it's sort of a reversed problem to find why the solution is wrong). Some people are upset by this, but I really cannot help myself. I'm the first to confess I'm a problem solving junkie. I look for problems to solve in everything. I studied physics, because it promised non-stop problem solving. I work in programming because in the end, you're basically solving problems all day long. I enjoy the endorphin rush a problem solved.

I have noticed some other people are frustrated or angered by problems they cannot instantly see the solution to. I have never been able to relate to that. I don't understand why they would react like that.
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Re: Boy Thread: put a hat on ur butt

Postby addams » Sat Aug 30, 2014 6:27 pm UTC

I took this out of You, sir, name?'s post.
Because, I wanted to respond to it.

I will point to its flaws (because it's sort of a reversed problem to find why the solution is wrong).

I suppose that is the Right and Proper way to do almost any kind of Engineering.

With problems of a more Etherial Nature,
I propose a solution. (In writing is ok with me.)

You accept it and consider acting on it or Not.
I don't want to listen to you tell me why the plan won't work.

Try it or Not.
Let's talk about something that Does have a solution. ey?
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Boy Thread: put a hat on ur butt

Postby bigglesworth » Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:45 pm UTC

Quercus wrote:Anecdote about prostate cancer
I just found a chart which illustrates my earlier point:

Image
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Re: Boy Thread: put a hat on ur butt

Postby addams » Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:09 pm UTC

What was your earlier point?
Yearly exams?

If so; Good you.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
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Re: Boy Thread: put a hat on ur butt

Postby Quercus » Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:18 am UTC

bigglesworth wrote:
Quercus wrote:Anecdote about prostate cancer
I just found a chart which illustrates my earlier point:


Okay, so prostate cancer was probably not the best anecdote to use, because the situation is complicated by stuff like this. I agree with you 100% here (I'd have to be pretty bloody-minded not to agree with a Cochrane review). Diagnostic screening for prostate cancer in asymptomatic men is pointless and leads to unnecessary treatment. This is exactly why such prostate cancer screening is no longer offered to men in the UK.

The situation I was talking about is different. I was talking about people who are symptomatic, and ignore those symptoms. I don't know how it works in the US, but in the UK when you are diagnosed with prostate cancer the usual advice either "watchful waiting" (do nothing at all until you notice progression of symptoms) or "active surveillance" (get regular PSA testing and one rebiopsy) and nothing much else is done until the disease appears to be progressive. Lots of men die of other things while under such surveillance, and therefore avoid the unnecessary surgery you mention, even once they are diagnosed. Those whose disease does become progressive (which would have included my grandfather) are offered surgery at that stage. I would suggest that if people are better off not being diagnosed and thereby avoiding unnecessary surgery, then the problem is with a medical system that promotes unnecessary surgery, not the patients who go to get their symptoms checked out.

However, it does appear that the data doesn't really back up my assertion that ignoring of symptoms and late diagnosis is a particular problem for men - ignoring of symptoms leading to late diagnosis is a problem, but both men and women do it to an equal extent. This is from a study of ~2000 cancer patients in the UK*. I therefore retract my earlier statement, as it appears to be unsupported by evidence.

The study is behind a paywall (I have access through my university), but basically the data were gathered by postal survey of cancer patients and delay in presentation is defined as >3 month gap between appearance of symptoms and first visiting a doctor about them. 23.0% of men (227/985) had a delay in presentation, 23.1% of women (196/850) had a delay in presentation. The study didn't assess whether the degree of delay differed.


* I haven't had chance to do more than skim read the article, so I'm taking it's conclusions at face value, but the study could have flaws I haven't picked up.

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Re: Boy Thread: put a hat on ur butt

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Sep 01, 2014 1:58 pm UTC

My point about prostate health was not tied to the efficacy of exams. I'm not sure what bigglesworth is saying Quericus's anecdote on prostate cancer was.

The point that cancer screening is not always/often an effective means of reducing deaths from cancer is valid, but off topic.
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Re: Boy Thread: put a hat on ur butt

Postby addams » Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:53 pm UTC

ok. Izawwlgood;
What is The Topic?

How hard is it to be an honorable person in the year 2014 in the US?
Or; What's it like to be a Man?

Maybe, we should ask A Man.
What do you think?

In my opinion, If we ask Izawwlgood, and he tell us the Truth,
We will Laugh, we will Cry and we will each have some Work to do.

How's your Dad?
I have learned to Love that Man.
And; I have never met him.

Is he The Picture of a Good Man?
In my mind, he is.

Funny, Irritating and Good.
He does not irritate me.

Izawwlgood's suffering entertains me.
Am I a Bad Man?

Sufundenderdur?
Like the Germans say?
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Boy Thread: put a hat on ur butt

Postby doogly » Mon Sep 01, 2014 3:18 pm UTC

addams wrote:Or; What's it like to be a Man?

Maybe, we should ask A Man.
What do you think?

The markers of a dominant class have more to do with border policing than constructing positive culture. There is no rhetoric of manliness which is not problematic.
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Re: Boy Thread: put a hat on ur butt

Postby addams » Tue Sep 02, 2014 4:32 am UTC

ok.
Explain that.

We can stab at it.
It's like the horse.

We can't kill it,
It's already dead.

Some people say we should not beat a dead horse.
I don't know why there should be a prohibition against it.

Beat that dominant class until I understand it.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Boy Thread: put a hat on ur butt

Postby bachaddict » Wed Sep 10, 2014 6:20 am UTC

doogly wrote:
addams wrote:Or; What's it like to be a Man?

Maybe, we should ask A Man.
What do you think?

The markers of a dominant class have more to do with border policing than constructing positive culture. There is no rhetoric of manliness which is not problematic.

You're saying the upper classes are the upper class by keeping others out, not by being better? I see what you mean. No matter what we hold up as the mark of a true man, some men will not reach it.

addams wrote:ok.
Explain that.

We can stab at it.
It's like the horse.

We can't kill it,
It's already dead.

Some people say we should not beat a dead horse.
I don't know why there should be a prohibition against it.

Beat that dominant class until I understand it.

A dead horse will not get up and do work,
no matter how hard you beat it. :)

This discussion might still do something if we keep hitting it!
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Re: Boy Thread: put a hat on ur butt

Postby Quercus » Wed Sep 10, 2014 9:40 am UTC

bachaddict wrote:
doogly wrote:
addams wrote:Or; What's it like to be a Man?

Maybe, we should ask A Man.
What do you think?

The markers of a dominant class have more to do with border policing than constructing positive culture. There is no rhetoric of manliness which is not problematic.

You're saying the upper classes are the upper class by keeping others out, not by being better? I see what you mean. No matter what we hold up as the mark of a true man, some men will not reach it.


I think I get this for the first time. Things that are held up as positive characteristics of the dominant class are usually just positive human characteristics, which are thereby denied to those not of the dominant class. This differs from an oppressed group forging an identity, because that normally consists of retaking identities which were previously denied them by the dominant class. Therefore the defining rhetoric of a dominant class narrows who is "allowed" to have certain positive traits, whereas a truly self-defined rhetoric of a non-dominant class broadens who is allowed to have those traits. Am I on the money with this, or have I totally missed the mark?

There is also the issue of a dominant class taking negative traits and twisting them to become positive, and conversely taking positive identifiers of a non-dominant class and twisting them to become negative, but those are almost easier (or at least more direct) to deal with.

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Re: Boy Thread: put a hat on ur butt

Postby doogly » Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:14 am UTC

Yeah Quercus that is basically my angle there.
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Re: Boy Thread: put a hat on ur butt

Postby addams » Thu Sep 11, 2014 3:28 am UTC

Quercus wrote:
bachaddict wrote:
doogly wrote:
addams wrote:Or; What's it like to be a Man?

Maybe, we should ask A Man.
What do you think?

The markers of a dominant class have more to do with border policing than constructing positive culture. There is no rhetoric of manliness which is not problematic.

You're saying the upper classes are the upper class by keeping others out, not by being better? I see what you mean. No matter what we hold up as the mark of a true man, some men will not reach it.


I think I get this for the first time.

Things that are held up as positive characteristics of the dominant class are usually just positive human characteristics, which are thereby denied to those not of the dominant class.

This differs from an oppressed group forging an identity, because that normally consists of retaking identities which were previously denied them by the dominant class. Therefore the defining rhetoric of a dominant class narrows who is "allowed" to have certain positive traits, whereas a truly self-defined rhetoric of a non-dominant class broadens who is allowed to have those traits.

Am I on the money with this, or have I totally missed the mark?

There is also the issue of a dominant class taking negative traits and twisting them to become positive, and conversely taking positive identifiers of a non-dominant class and twisting them to become negative, but those are almost easier (or at least more direct) to deal with.

That's good.
Do I understand it?

This part makes so much sense.
Things that are held up as positive characteristics of the dominant class are usually just positive human characteristics, which are thereby denied to those not of the dominant class.


Of course, I don't understand the denied part.
To be a good man can not be denied us by a Bully.
It comes from Within.

It is a fuck of a lot easier when Everything from the Traffic Lights
to the Shipping Schedule on the New Yacht are going your way.

What did The Old Guys say?
It is not in Comfort and Privilege men have an Opportunity to Exhibit their Finest and True Nature.

That's not exactly what they said.
It, sort of, means the same thing.

What the Hell?
Lets be Men about this.
There is also the issue of a dominant class taking negative traits and twisting them to become positive, and conversely taking positive identifiers of a non-dominant class and twisting them to become negative, but those are almost easier (or at least more direct) to deal with.


That is a Rabbit Hole.
I may be on the Oppisie Side of this Rabbit Hole.

I do not think the adoption of some of the Trashier Fashions and Styles can be Bundled up so nicely.
That is Complicated and sometimes Profoundly Stupid Stuff.

An example that springs to mind.
This is the way I heard the story:

In the Black Communities men and sometimes women would be inprisioned.
Often UnJustly.

When The men would Come Home they often had lost weight.
They had lost their belts in Jail.

Those were Skinny Men with falling down pants.
Those men were treated like Kings by Aunties and MaMas.

They were given a wide berth by other men.
Sometimes they were treated like Heroes;
Because, they were.

The next thing ya' know,
Rich White Kids have their Baggie Underwear hanging out of pants that don't always make it up to the round part of their asses.

Fucking Fashion.
What do Real Men wear?

I don't want to talk Fashion!

Real Men can Eat Quiche.
Real Men can wear Pink.

Real Men Pull their fucking Pants Up!
Jeeze!

I suppose stupid fashions help Men and Women understand one another.
Those falling down pants have Got to be hard to walk in.
Woman have Tons of things that are hard to walk in.

Modern materials have helped, a lot.
We don't have good reason to be so uncomfortable.
We Like it. Some of us Must.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Quercus
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Re: Boy Thread: put a hat on ur butt

Postby Quercus » Thu Sep 11, 2014 6:36 am UTC

addams wrote:
Quercus wrote:
bachaddict wrote:
doogly wrote:
addams wrote:Or; What's it like to be a Man?

Maybe, we should ask A Man.
What do you think?

The markers of a dominant class have more to do with border policing than constructing positive culture. There is no rhetoric of manliness which is not problematic.

You're saying the upper classes are the upper class by keeping others out, not by being better? I see what you mean. No matter what we hold up as the mark of a true man, some men will not reach it.


I think I get this for the first time.

Things that are held up as positive characteristics of the dominant class are usually just positive human characteristics, which are thereby denied to those not of the dominant class.

This differs from an oppressed group forging an identity, because that normally consists of retaking identities which were previously denied them by the dominant class. Therefore the defining rhetoric of a dominant class narrows who is "allowed" to have certain positive traits, whereas a truly self-defined rhetoric of a non-dominant class broadens who is allowed to have those traits.

Am I on the money with this, or have I totally missed the mark?

There is also the issue of a dominant class taking negative traits and twisting them to become positive, and conversely taking positive identifiers of a non-dominant class and twisting them to become negative, but those are almost easier (or at least more direct) to deal with.

That's good.
Do I understand it?

This part makes so much sense.
Things that are held up as positive characteristics of the dominant class are usually just positive human characteristics, which are thereby denied to those not of the dominant class.


Of course, I don't understand the denied part.
To be a good man can not be denied us by a Bully.
It comes from Within.

It is a fuck of a lot easier when Everything from the Traffic Lights
to the Shipping Schedule on the New Yacht are going your way.

What did The Old Guys say?
It is not in Comfort and Privilege men have an Opportunity to Exhibit their Finest and True Nature.

That's not exactly what they said.
It, sort of, means the same thing.

What the Hell?
Lets be Men about this.


Sorry, I made my wording too general in order to make the statement applicable to class politics as a whole, rather than just gender politics. The dominant class in doogly's statement is men, and the non-dominant classes are women and people who don't identify with the gender binary (N.B. a class can be dominant without all or even most individual members of that class being dominant individuals - look at the proportion of male:non-male political, judicial and business leaders worldwide, that alone should convince you that men are currently the dominant class in gender politics).

The point of this is that when we say that e.g. "men are or should be strong/honourable/rational etc." what we are tacitly and often unintentionally saying is that "women are or should be weak/dishonourable/irrational etc.". A much healthier rhetoric is saying that "good people, or a certain type of good person who may be male, female or neither, is strong/honourable/rational". You could for example say "a good scientist is rational" or "a good leader is strong and honourable".

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doogly
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Re: Boy Thread: put a hat on ur butt

Postby doogly » Thu Sep 11, 2014 3:01 pm UTC

And as for the non dominant class being denied them, it is because what would be a virtue is twisted in the rhetoric.
Assertive, confident --> bitchy.
Rational --> cold.
etc.
LE4dGOLEM: What's a Doug?
Noc: A larval Doogly. They grow the tail and stinger upon reaching adulthood.

Keep waggling your butt brows Brothers.
Or; Is that your eye butthairs?

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addams
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Re: Boy Thread: put a hat on ur butt

Postby addams » Fri Sep 12, 2014 2:23 am UTC

Wait a minute.
This is a sword that cuts both ways.
My personal view is that Men and Women should be Judged as individuals.


(steam starts pouring our of my ears(
But; No!
Fuck No!

A different Standard for Men and Women.
Well....ok.

I've looked around a bit.
I talked to some people.

I've decided, I would rather meet the Standard set for Men than for Women.
That was not always the case.

I have known Women that were The Best Man in the room.
Loads of Times.

When Crampy, they Deal with it.
When Pregnant, they look funny.

When men are in pain, they Deal with it.
When men have Shoulder surgery, lose an arm or have Hyperthyroidism they look funny.

excuse me.
I think I'm grumpy.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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SurgicalSteel
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Re: Boy Thread: put a hat on ur butt

Postby SurgicalSteel » Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:15 am UTC

Been letting my beard grow longer than I have before, and I'm wondering how other long-bearded people keep it looking neat and handle fly aways. I've heard beard oil is something people use for this. Any brand recommendations?
"There's spray paint on the teleprompter
Anchorman screams that he's seen a monster (mayday)
There's blood stains on his shirt (mayday)
They say that he's gone berserk."
--Flobots "Mayday"


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