Decent online email service? Or, fleeing the new gmail!

[Ulc]

So far I've been using gmail, but since they seem really insistent that the new look will be enforced - this more or less makes it impossible for me to check my email on my laptop without instant headache (yes, I've tried the tinkering with the new look) and the chat function that I used a fair bit is much more difficult to access (I have to scroll separately in a different window that ctr+tap can't reach).

So, is there any decent online email services that can match roughly what I had in gmail? Meaning, easy to read on a small screen and threaded emails.

If nothing else, I'd like to get away from gmail because the whole "force a horrible new look down our users throats despite the very vocal protests" really irks me.

[Steax]

I'm a UI designer and I've never heard of people having 'instant headaches' with designs when it doesn't involved sharp red-on-blue stuff. So could you specify which bit of the interface annoys you? Is a native client not an option, either?

[Ulc]

I'm a UI designer and I've never heard of people having 'instant headaches' with designs when it doesn't involved sharp red-on-blue stuff. So could you specify which bit of the interface annoys you? Is a native client not an option, either?

Lack of contrast, poor and small font (and no choice in font) and a cluttered screen that I have to squint my eyes at to separate things - none of which was a problem in the old UI.

Basically, poor eyesight that my glasses and contacts can't compensate entirely for, and a choice of design almost specifically built to make it a pain for people with bad eyes.

Native client is a option that I'd rather not deal with, since I tend to access it from several different computes.

[AvatarIII]

I've used Hotmail for like 10 years, (when i joined there was a 2, or maybe 10mb, that's right megabytes, storage limit , it's now unlimited) and they have never changed their UI (much), they've added and removed features, but the layout and look remains the same.

not sure how good it would be on a small screen with bad eyesight, but they must be doing something right, apart from being ad supported, but you can upgrade to hotmail plus to get rid of that, although $20 a year is kind of pricy.

[Steax]

Font is 13px Arial, which is the same size as these very forums, and Arial ties with Verdana as one of the top used fonts on the web. Much of the text is pure black or 80% black. It's also far uncluttered from the old version (use the gear icon on the inbox page - not the top right one - and pick one of the others). I honestly don't see how this can be an issue, so I'm guessing you somehow managed to get one of the weirder themes enabled (something I've seen happen to people before). Have you tried tweaking those?

I'm trying to help you deal with gmail, because I've tried a slew of different options online, and none of them match up well to gmail's standard.

[Ulc]

Font is 13px Arial, which is the same size as these very forums, and Arial ties with Verdana as one of the top used fonts on the web. Much of the text is pure black or 80% black. It's also far uncluttered from the old version (use the gear icon on the inbox page - not the top right one - and pick one of the others). I honestly don't see how this can be an issue, so I'm guessing you somehow managed to get one of the weirder themes enabled (something I've seen happen to people before). Have you tried tweaking those?

Yes, I've tried to mess with the themes, and none of them are good.

It is a lot more cluttered than the old version though, many more borders and far more unnecessary stuff that none the less stand out - in the old look it's at least a light colour that doesn't pop out at you so much, and the contrast between background and text in the inbox is a lot less cleaner, which I suspect is the main issue that gives me headache, and none of the themes alter this!

13p arial is no problem on white or very light blue (like the old) - on grey it feels like red hot pins being poked into my eyes. And they have stated that the grey is there to stay.

It's also annoying that they have basically restricted chat to people with a mouse, since it's a separate window, even if I set the chat window to as large as possible I can see about 8 contacts - and usually there is some 50 people online, so scrolling through that last is fairly bothersome.

In short, the new gmail look is horrible for me and I need to migrate to something else, this is not an issue of me not being used to it, or me not using it correctly - I'm quite aware of why I want it gone, and I have no need whatsoever for advice on how to use it.

Have hotmail begun to make threaded conversations?

[AvatarIII]

Have hotmail begun to make threaded conversations?

If by that you mean all emails in a single conversation getting linked then no, which is a shame because microsoft's outlook web app (basically a corporate version of hotmail) does have it, don't know how you would get that for personal use though, but it's what they use at the company I work for (on computers that don't actually have outlook installed)

[Panonadin]

I actually like the changes they have made with G-Mail recently but that doesn't help you now does it.

I don't know if it is possible with your current OS or what your set-up may be, but for a while I just used Outlook and had it use my G-Mail as it's primary e mail account. You can use Outlook webmail for when you are away from your primary machine if the "web" part is an absolute need.

[undecim]

Just setup thunderbird with IMAP.

EDIT: You could also play around with custom CSS via a browser plugin. IMHO, it's more than worth the trouble to keep the features of Gmail.

[userxp]

I found this page that lists webmail providers.
I used Yahoo! webmail until they completely fucked up the interface about one year ago. Now I use the integrated mail client in Opera. OK, I wouldn't say it's great, it can be a bit confusing at first if you're used to the traditional mail-client interface (Opera shows the message list as a column on the left and the currently selected message on the right), but it's very well integrated in the browser and in general works well.

[take_that]
I remember that the first GMail users liked to boast about how much available space they had, yet now the standard seems to be "Unlimited" and they are stuck with 7.5GB .
[/take_that]

[Steax]

13p arial is no problem on white or very light blue (like the old) - on grey it feels like red hot pins being poked into my eyes. And they have stated that the grey is there to stay.

Sorry to continue on this, since you're not interested in using gmail any more - but something's certainly wrong if your text is on grey. Gmail's default theme is on white.

That said, good luck finding a new email service!

[take_that]
I remember that the first GMail users liked to boast about how much available space they had, yet now the standard seems to be "Unlimited" and they are stuck with 7.5GB .
[/take_that]

I see that more as Google not overselling their service. [/takethatthat]

[Carnildo]

Sorry to continue on this, since you're not interested in using gmail any more - but something's certainly wrong if your text is on grey. Gmail's default theme is on white.

At least in the browser I use, the text is on partially transparent white so that the theme's background image bleeds through slightly (one of the things that makes the new look hard for me to use). If your browser mishandles the transparency, it's quite possible that you'll get a grey background.

[phlip]

Native client is a option that I'd rather not deal with, since I tend to access it from several different computes.

If you use IMAP, then this isn't a problem - everything you do is still happening on the server, and you can access it from as many computers as you need and it'll look the same on all of them. It's not like POP where you just download all the mail to your computer off the server, and all the manipulations are done locally... IMAP is server-driven.

Now, the GMail implementation of IMAP has a couple of quirks (eg deleting an email over IMAP is mapped to the "Archive" option in GMail, not the "Delete" option) but other than that it works quite well.

[Steax]

Sorry to continue on this, since you're not interested in using gmail any more - but something's certainly wrong if your text is on grey. Gmail's default theme is on white.

At least in the browser I use, the text is on partially transparent white so that the theme's background image bleeds through slightly (one of the things that makes the new look hard for me to use). If your browser mishandles the transparency, it's quite possible that you'll get a grey background.

Did you select that theme deliberately, or were you somehow pushed upon it by gmail? I'm beginning to wonder if not everyone got the basic theme when the rollout came.

[rath358]

FWIW, my gmail account still seems to be on the old theme (though I did have to tell it to fuck off with the changes a few times).

[Ulc]

FWIW, my gmail account still seems to be on the old theme (though I did have to tell it to fuck off with the changes a few times).

So is my, January the 20th is the point where they have announced that the old look is dead and gone permanently.

Steax, not the email text, but the overview of all the emails, which is default grey, and since I quite often have to find old emails I end up staring at the inbox a fair bit

Seems like the best option is to setup thunderbird properly on all computers I regularly use, then accept that if I use a strange computer to check something it's the new look. Though I still think they are being assholes about it.

[Jorpho]

Y'know, the "Basic HTML" version of GMail still looks exactly the same. I think you can switch in the settings. (I happen to like opening messages in their own browser tabs, and it's quite handy for that.)

I found this page that lists webmail providers.
I used Yahoo! webmail until they completely fucked up the interface about one year ago. Now I use the integrated mail client in Opera.

Yahoo Mail also has an HTML version, but I think the only way you can get to it is if you mangle your browser's User Agent string, so Yahoo thinks you're using a browser that isn't supported.

It is also a dirty little secret that if you change your Yahoo Mail locale to Asia, you can get free POP3 access with pretty much no strings attached. See viewtopic.php?f=20&t=60764&p=2197877 .

[Zamfir]

Because Steax seems interested, i'll add my view on the new gmail:

Spoiler:

I have fairly good eyesight (at least with glasses on), but I still have mild trouble with the new UI, especially the i. I can't pinpoint it precisely, but it gives me slight feeling of nausea that I don' t recognize from other places. If it was stronger, I would consider switching as well.

Part of it are the grey read mails, that really seem to try to escape my focus. In the blue theme, I could easily make a mental switch from "look at unread mails" to "look at read mails", but now I have to force that.

Another part is that the very soft bordering makes it harder to compartmentalize the layout. It's like you have to mentally add lines that are only suggested by the GUI. Like the missing line between the inbox mails and the left-hand menu, or how the selected item in the menu is shown by a color and a little line, hinting at a box around the word that isn;t ctually there.

If you look at the new layout of the Google RSS reader, it's even stronger: lots of blocks and words on a white background, with separators implied between them but not actually drawn. If I stop concentrating on the site, my mind forgets to see the structure and it becomes randomly placed text-on-white. I have to refocus to see the structure again.

I think it's a spreading design style. Minimalist, replacing the clunky 3-Dish bars and buttons of older GUIs with text and single-colored shapes "floating" on a background. Perhaps Apple is to blame.

[Steax]

Because Steax seems interested, i'll add my view on the new gmail:

Spoiler:

I have fairly good eyesight (at least with glasses on), but I still have mild trouble with the new UI, especially the i. I can't pinpoint it precisely, but it gives me slight feeling of nausea that I don' t recognize from other places. If it was stronger, I would consider switching as well.

Part of it are the grey read mails, that really seem to try to escape my focus. In the blue theme, I could easily make a mental switch from "look at unread mails" to "look at read mails", but now I have to force that.

Another part is that the very soft bordering makes it harder to compartmentalize the layout. It's like you have to mentally add lines that are only suggested by the GUI. Like the missing line between the inbox mails and the left-hand menu, or how the selected item in the menu is shown by a color and a little line, hinting at a box around the word that isn;t ctually there.

If you look at the new layout of the Google RSS reader, it's even stronger: lots of blocks and words on a white background, with separators implied between them but not actually drawn. If I stop concentrating on the site, my mind forgets to see the structure and it becomes randomly placed text-on-white. I have to refocus to see the structure again.

I think it's a spreading design style. Minimalist, replacing the clunky 3-Dish bars and buttons of older GUIs with text and single-colored shapes "floating" on a background. Perhaps Apple is to blame.

Spoiler:

I won't disagree that the new gmail is pretty bad (I rarely ever actually use the web interface, but I do from time to time). My main issue, like yours, is the lack of clear separation between various content. They're not using whitespace effectively enough. The main reason why I responded about the UI was because it didn't sound like what I was seeing (low contrast, etc), so I wondered if it was a theme issue that could be fixed. But yeah, the main UI sucks pretty bad anyway. Ah well. I still recommend separate apps.

[Phasma Felis]

I'm a UI designer and I've never heard of people having 'instant headaches' with designs when it doesn't involved sharp red-on-blue stuff. So could you specify which bit of the interface annoys you? Is a native client not an option, either?

Lack of contrast, poor and small font (and no choice in font) and a cluttered screen that I have to squint my eyes at to separate things - none of which was a problem in the old UI.

I take it zooming in the browser tab doesn't help, or not enough?

[Ptolom]

Can you get a portable version of Thunderbird on a USB stick, like you can with Firefox?

[usshadowop]

I also use a small screened laptop and have been having an issue with navigating the chat after the GUI update. Though it is not a complete fix I did discover a lab that helps.

There is a google mail lab option that moves the chat to the right side of the screen. This allows it to use the entire height of the screen instead of just the bottom bit on the left thus making many more contacts visible and less scrolling required.

[woddfellow2]

I echo everyone else in this thread who said to access Gmail via POP/IMAP.

I personally access Gmail via IMAP via Mutt, and secondarily Gnus.

[Jplus]

I'm fetching my mail over POP and IMAP too, but as of late I'm starting to feel like I may want to move away from gmail anyway. It's mainly because I'm under the growing impression that Google takes privacy a bit too lightly, especially since the recent changes to the privacy policy. I've already started moving away from Google in favour of other services:

DuckDuckGo for web search
Bloglines for news feeds
Dropbox for sharing documents (not really a counterpart to Google Docs, but there is some overlap in the things you can do with them)

I also stopped using Google Calendar without switching to another service provider, mainly because I realized an offline calendar is enough for me as I can sync it between my devices. The services from Google that I'm still using at present (apart from Gmail) are the image search engine and Google Maps.

I've followed userxp's pointer to the wikipedia comparison of webmail providers, and I found out that Yandex and ZOHO might offer the best alternatives to gmail. Both offer free personal email with unlimited storage, as well as the possibility to fetch your email over POP or IMAP with SSL. Neither will share your information with third parties, unless legally required or with your explicit prior consent. More facts:

Yandex

• is a Russian company (but they seem to have an office in the Netherlands as well), your data are stored in the RF and their service is subject to RF law;
• offers web search just like Google, also for images and videos;
• asks for you real name, alternative email address, phone number, gender and day of birth during registration, although all that information is optional;
• doesn't allow you to use a password of more than 20 characters;
• has a themable webmail app with labels, optionally with threaded email conversations though I don't know yet whether the latter works as nicely as in gmail;
• does use your personal data and usage statistics for targeted advertising;
• has a short but mostly satisfying privacy policy.

ZOHO

• is a USA based company, your data are stored in the USA and their service is subject to the USA law;
• offers several work-oriented web apps in addition to email, such as a calendar and office document editing;
• requires an alternative email address during registration but doesn't ask for any other personal information;
• lets you have a password of up to 60 characters;
• has a tabbed webmail app with chat functionality, labels and an archive but (as far as I can tell right now) no conversation threads, and it lets you change the interface colour although it's not really themable;
• does not use your data for targeted advertising;
• has a slightly longer and pretty satisfying privacy policy.

I've made test accounts on both and I'll report back when I know more. Also, I made screenshots of the default inbox which you can find attached.

Edit: I thought ZOHO didn't offer SSL but it does, and I couldn't find an email I archived but apparently I just needed to refresh. Yandex has labels too. ZOHO does let you change the interface colour.

[Jplus]

Update to the above: I've spent some more time testing ZOHO and Yandex, and I think both are actually pretty good. IMAP with SSL works like a charm, and both have very decent web applications. Speaking of the web applications: ZOHO looks more serious, sober and functional (it doesn't just look like that, there are really more bells and whistles than in Gmail and Yandex, usually in the right place), while Yandex has a more quiet interface (less clutter than Gmail and ZOHO). That said, both are quite comfortable to the eye and seem pretty complete.

Contrary to my previous impression, both DO offer threaded conversation views. However, both also have some disadvantages in this respect. Ironically, their disadvantages happen to be completely disjunct.

ZOHO:

• Does not group messages in your inbox by thread, you always see a flat list. From within the list, you can decide whether you want to open a message in isolation or together with its conversation tree, where you can switch between all messages in the thread.
• If you open a message in isolation, there is no shortcut to view the rest of the thread. You have to go back to the inbox (or whatever folder/label/archive you opened it from) to get the full conversation.

Yandex:

• Lets you switch between flat list mode and grouped by subject mode from within the inbox with a single click. However, if you choose the latter you're forced to expand a group before you can open the messages within (unless there is an unread message in the group), so for conversations you already read the number of clicks you need in order to view them increases twofold.

So that's two small inconveniences in ZOHO and one bigger inconvenience in Yandex. Fortunately both also have a significant advantage, compared to each other as well as to Gmail.

ZOHO:

• The tree view of a conversation is very useful, because you not only see in what order the messages where sent, but also which replied to which. Relevant if you often have email conversations with multiple people.

Yandex:

• Whatever you choose in the inbox, when you open a message you always get a sidebar at the right that shows all messages in the conversation. I find this clearer and more orderly than the chain of messages you get in Gmail. That's not all, the sidebar has three additional tabs with more goodness: all correspondence with the contact, all attachments exchanged with the contact, and all hyperlinks exchanged with the contact. I haven't tested yet how these tabs behave when you view a conversation with multiple contacts.

Overall webmail comparison
General mailbox features: ZOHO > Yandex ~ Gmail*

• Web office: ZOHO > Gmail >> Yandex **
• Threading: all have both advantages and disadvantages compared to the others

Layout: Yandex > ZOHO ~ Gmail
Looks: I'd say they're about equally well designed, but they're sufficiently different that your taste will matter.
Searching: to be reviewed when I have more data!

FWIW, I've decided to keep using both of them.

___________
*) Yandex doesn't have an archive button, but you can move messages out of the inbox into a DIY archive folder. Gmail doesn't have Yandex's nifty sidebar. I couldn't decide which difference is more important and otherwise they seem to match up pretty well.
**) Yandex can only preview attachments, not edit them. The ZOHO suite is more mature and has more features than Google Docs.