Hearthstone

Of the Tabletop, and other, lesser varieties.

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SirBryghtside
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby SirBryghtside » Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:08 pm UTC

Naxxramas pricing just got announced, it's 700 gold per wing. Slightly higher than I was expecting - not sure whether to try and get back to the level of arena grind I was at earlier this year or to just save it up through dailies and not bother with that mode. Think I'll do at least one more - only need around 30 dust before I can craft another epic (effectively unlocking Handlock), but from there I'm going to start being conservative.
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Weeks » Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:40 pm UTC

I can only pay one wing with my current gold. Great. And I'll need 2800 gold total.
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Adacore » Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:50 pm UTC

I have enough for two wings right now. If Naxxramas is released next week, that would give me over a month to save up another 1400 for the other two wings, which is easily achievable (and, actually, I'm going to be busy in mid-August, so I might not be able to get all the Naxxramas wings as they come out even if I have the money on hand).

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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Weeks » Wed Jul 09, 2014 1:09 am UTC

I mean I guess it's okay though, because the wings will remain "released" and I can accumulate the gold later.
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Tyndmyr
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Jul 09, 2014 2:04 pm UTC

Adacore wrote:I don't think mana crystals would be that hard to implement in a physical game. You could just have a stack of 10 mana crystal cards next to your deck, and play one per turn until you ran out of them, then tap them to represent used mana like in Magic.


Indeed. It's elements like the heavy randomization that would be tedious. Random effects have *mostly* been removed from magic because of how they complicate the game.

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MartianInvader
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby MartianInvader » Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:15 pm UTC

I didn't mean it would be hard to *implement* in a physical game, just that it would be a pain to use. If you used a separate set of 10 cards for mana crystals, you're essentially now carrying around two decks. You'd have to be careful to keep them separate and not to accidentally shuffle a mana crystal into your main deck, plus you'd need another "library" pile of cards for each player in the play area. The extra complexity for the players just wouldn't be worth the benefits when compared with Magic's land system.

Anyways, I've had some fun situations recently - in one game, my opponent was way ahead on life, and I started my turn with a flametongue totem that had a fire elemental on one side of it and a gnomish inventor on the other. I cast bloodlust, so now I've got a 7/4, 3/3, and 11/5. Then I summon a windcaller, give my fire elemental windfury, and hit him in the face for 31 damage.

Last night I played a priest who did the Gorubashi Berserker/Divine Spirit/Divine Spirit/Inner fire combo all at once to get a 28/28 creature on turn 10. Sadly for him I had a Shadow word: Death. I just had to emote "sorry" after that one.
Let's have a fervent argument, mostly over semantics, where we all claim the burden of proof is on the other side!

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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:58 pm UTC

MartianInvader wrote:I didn't mean it would be hard to *implement* in a physical game, just that it would be a pain to use. If you used a separate set of 10 cards for mana crystals, you're essentially now carrying around two decks. You'd have to be careful to keep them separate and not to accidentally shuffle a mana crystal into your main deck, plus you'd need another "library" pile of cards for each player in the play area. The extra complexity for the players just wouldn't be worth the benefits when compared with Magic's land system.

Anyways, I've had some fun situations recently - in one game, my opponent was way ahead on life, and I started my turn with a flametongue totem that had a fire elemental on one side of it and a gnomish inventor on the other. I cast bloodlust, so now I've got a 7/4, 3/3, and 11/5. Then I summon a windcaller, give my fire elemental windfury, and hit him in the face for 31 damage.

Last night I played a priest who did the Gorubashi Berserker/Divine Spirit/Divine Spirit/Inner fire combo all at once to get a 28/28 creature on turn 10. Sadly for him I had a Shadow word: Death. I just had to emote "sorry" after that one.


The dual deck thing is actually fairly common for many CCGs and LCGs. I agree that it's fairly tedious, and Magic, the biggie, doesn't use it, but if memory serves, L5R, star wars, netrunner, etc all do.

The land system is good in some ways, but has severe tradeoffs in other ways.

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MartianInvader
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby MartianInvader » Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:40 pm UTC

Oh I know it's used in other games - but in pretty much every one of those games, the mechanics you get out of the second deck are far more interesting than what you would get out of replacing lands with mana crystals. If you're going to add the complexity of a second deck to your game, you should be able to do something more fun than just having 10 cards that are all the same. Put simply, a second deck is a liability, that the designers need to make up for by making the new mechanics fun enough (and many do). But on a computer, there's no liability to using mana crystals, and you essentially still have just one deck.
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Jul 10, 2014 5:56 pm UTC

A die would be a more likely mechanic than a second deck, I think. After all, it simply counts up, in a similar way to life, or poison counters or whatever.

But I agree that a computer does offer advantages in the keeping track of things area. Stuff like "copy random cards from opponents deck" would be just obnoxious in real life.

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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Weeks » Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:54 pm UTC

MartianInvader wrote:Last night I played a priest who did the Gorubashi Berserker/Divine Spirit/Divine Spirit/Inner fire combo all at once to get a 28/28 creature on turn 10. Sadly for him I had a Shadow word: Death. I just had to emote "sorry" after that one.
It's just so funny when people throw everything on a creature when it can't even attack yet, and you have a Hex/Earth Shock/Shadow Word: Death/Polymorph in your hand. Or Deadly Shot! Or Sap!
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Will
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Will » Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:33 pm UTC

MartianInvader wrote:Oh I know it's used in other games - but in pretty much every one of those games, the mechanics you get out of the second deck are far more interesting than what you would get out of replacing lands with mana crystals.

Given how many games of Magic I've lost to mana screw over the years, I would be MORE than happy to deal with a some additional complexity to be rid of it.
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Adacore » Thu Jul 10, 2014 11:36 pm UTC

Weeks wrote:
MartianInvader wrote:Last night I played a priest who did the Gorubashi Berserker/Divine Spirit/Divine Spirit/Inner fire combo all at once to get a 28/28 creature on turn 10. Sadly for him I had a Shadow word: Death. I just had to emote "sorry" after that one.
It's just so funny when people throw everything on a creature when it can't even attack yet, and you have a Hex/Earth Shock/Shadow Word: Death/Polymorph in your hand. Or Deadly Shot! Or Sap!

Yeah, basically every viable deck in the game will have some way of dealing with a gigantic minion, or at least stalling it out for a few turns. The only reason to make a gigantic all-in minion on a turn it can't attack is if your opponent would be able to remove it with what they have already on the board if you didn't, and even then only if that would be likely to cost you the game.

Adacore wrote:EDIT: Started a Warrior arena run today, and drafted by far my best Warrior deck ever ... Currently 8-0, and I can see it going 12-0 with some luck. It just destroys people with early tempo, and never lets up.

I don't know why I posted this, because I cursed the deck. I ended up 9-3, after a couple of games in which I had almost the worst draws the deck was capable of giving me, and a game where I was just crushed by a Druid with all the right answers (multiple Oozes for my weapons, mainly). I also made a couple of misplays that probably cost me at least one game. I still think this deck could've easily got to 12 wins with a little more luck.

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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Weeks » Sun Jul 13, 2014 11:43 pm UTC

Finally, 9-3.
mage9-2.PNG
(other cards were Frost Elemental, Flamestrike, Stormwind Champion and Pyroblast)

The Flamestrike had the nasty habit of NOT showing up. Pyroblast stuck itself in my hand after the mulligan in my final loss. I also didn't mean to pick the murloc...the other picks were Questing Adventurer and Arcane Golem, but I clicked a little too far to the left missing the Questing entirely. Wasn't completely useless though.

Had a lot of excellent starts, with multiple Amani Berserkers and Arcane Missiles.
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Will » Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:25 am UTC

Had my best Arena run ever today, 4-3 :p
It's annoying, because I want to get better at Arena, but to play Arena you need gold, and the best way to get gold is to get good at Arena...
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Weeks » Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:34 am UTC

It took me about 5 months (!) to get to 9-3 from no experience in card games, but I don't play that often and I'm not too hardcore.
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Adacore » Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:52 am UTC

I've been on a really good streak with my Arenas lately. I don't think I've had fewer than 5 wins in the last two weeks, and I just had my third 12-win Arena (with Paladin - now I've done Mage, Shaman and Paladin I think). I guess my Arenas over the last fortnight have averaged 7-8 wins. So I'm up to 2200 gold saved for Naxx now, which is pretty awesome. Soon I'll be up to 2800 so I can start buying packs again.

I definitely think some of my drop-off last month was because I was putting so much focus on constructed and using Arena just to blow off steam. Now I'm maining Arena I'm doing much better at it. I think mulliganning correctly is the biggest single improvement I've made. You really need to spend a few minutes studying your deck before you start playing an Arena run to work out how many 2- and 3-drops you have and what you want to mulligan for. If you have very few twos but lots of threes, for example, throw all your 3-drops back to try and find a 2-drop. If you have loads of 2-drops, don't be afraid to reroll the mediocre 2-mana card(s) in your opening hand in order to try and get some of the premium ones you want to be starting out with.

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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Yubtzock » Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:23 pm UTC

Weeks wrote:Finally, 9-3.
[IMAGE]
(other cards were Frost Elemental, Flamestrike, Stormwind Champion and Pyroblast)

The Flamestrike had the nasty habit of NOT showing up. Pyroblast stuck itself in my hand after the mulligan in my final loss. I also didn't mean to pick the murloc...the other picks were Questing Adventurer and Arcane Golem, but I clicked a little too far to the left missing the Questing entirely. Wasn't completely useless though.

Had a lot of excellent starts, with multiple Amani Berserkers and Arcane Missiles.
Grats on progress! I know how hard it was for me to break 7 wins and then again 10. Apart from that murloc it's a really strong deck. :D


Will wrote:Had my best Arena run ever today, 4-3 :p
It's annoying, because I want to get better at Arena, but to play Arena you need gold, and the best way to get gold is to get good at Arena...

I believe someone on this thread suggested that already, but given how important the drafting part is I advise trying out the arena draft tiers if you are not doing that already. (Early on I was using Antigrav1ty's or Trump's list) Of course things like drafting around 10 early drops (1, 2 or 3 mana) or enough taunt and carddraw should come first, but knowing how much better one card is considered to be over the other is neat.


On a sidenote: I refined my combo shaman deck. And by refined I mean: swapped out forked lightning for lightning störm*.
Managing to beat control warrior with it felt so satisfying. I noticed later the guy was running similar deck to one Trump has run into a couple of times in his recent vids. I had to pace my every answer and try to keep hard removal (including the Ancestral healing -> Black knight) for his big stuff. I almost wanted to keep my earth shock for cairne, but silencing both acolyte of pain and an armor smith was worth it - ultimately he had to use his hellscream early so I could kill him with Alakir+ flametongue and freed up one hex for cairne this way. :D I also had to bash around 60 health including armor across 4 turns and one brawl and that is with both bloodlust and windfury and dodging Ysera Awakens...

Seriously - at some point it's more about knowing your opponents' decks more than knowing your own...

Another thing to share I almost forgot about: I was running ramp-ish druid and hoped to make mill druid soon, but I've come up with Mill-Ramp. The gist of it: with decks like miracle, frost mage, handlock and control warrior it's beneficial to burn some of their combo pieces and if you manage to do that, it can even be a game over for them. if it isn't, you probably got rid of some nasty card anyway AND killed one of their minions on board for 1 mana...
It was tempting to run second coldlight as only 3 "mill" cards isn't much, but this deck has hard time with aggro if you run into those cards early on.
The malygos + 2*moonfire is there only cause it's fun. It could be anything else like 2 early drops: Mark of the wild (for better BK), second keeper + something big OR FoN+Savage Roar combo and something like Tazdingo.
And Ironbark because no second ancient of war :[
Stampeding kodo in place of BGH because tempo vs aggro (direwolf alfas behind taunts in zoo) and because there are already two naturalises for big stuff.

*)- I noticed it's a lot funnier to imagine all shaman cards to be names of some metal bands.

EDIT: for those, who know who Noxious is: I've made a Randuin-ish deck recently and ran into a Angry chicken +buffs deck. It was so much fun :D
Last edited by Yubtzock on Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:40 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Adacore » Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:31 pm UTC

Yubtzock wrote:Managing to beat control warrior with it felt so satisfying. I noticed later the guy was running similar deck to one Trump has run into a couple of times in his recent vids. I had to pace my every answer and try to keep hard removal (including the Ancestral healing -> Black knight) for his big stuff. I almost wanted to keep my earth shock for cairne, but silencing both acolyte of pain and an armor smith was worth it - ultimately he had to use his hellscream early so I could kill him with Alakir+ flametongue and freed up one hex for cairne this way. :D I also had to bash around 60 health including armor across 4 turns and one brawl and that is with both bloodlust and windfury and dodging Ysera Awakens...

I don't normally bother silencing the armorsmith as Shaman. I can normally outlast the Warrior's threats and grind through any amount of armor he's generated once he runs out of cards (if not before). Do you think it's a better play to silence it? I'm much more likely to silence an Acolyte of Pain to reduce the card draw, but I normally try to save a silence for Cairne.

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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Yubtzock » Mon Jul 14, 2014 1:33 pm UTC

Adacore wrote:
Yubtzock wrote:Managing to beat control warrior with it felt so satisfying. I noticed later the guy was running similar deck to one Trump has run into a couple of times in his recent vids. I had to pace my every answer and try to keep hard removal (including the Ancestral healing -> Black knight) for his big stuff. I almost wanted to keep my earth shock for cairne, but silencing both acolyte of pain and an armor smith was worth it - ultimately he had to use his hellscream early so I could kill him with Alakir+ flametongue and freed up one hex for cairne this way. :D I also had to bash around 60 health including armor across 4 turns and one brawl and that is with both bloodlust and windfury and dodging Ysera Awakens...

I don't normally bother silencing the armorsmith as Shaman. I can normally outlast the Warrior's threats and grind through any amount of armor he's generated once he runs out of cards (if not before). Do you think it's a better play to silence it? I'm much more likely to silence an Acolyte of Pain to reduce the card draw, but I normally try to save a silence for Cairne.

There were good targets on my side of the board for whirlwind to bring too much value with both armor smith and (even silenced) acolyte left. Ultimately I think I casted bloodlust for lethal one turn earlier thanks to that, but it might have been decided at that point anyway. Now that I think of it I might have panicked a bit - it'd be at least 3 health more for him, but it's not that much compared to the 60 total damage I had to deal...

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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Will » Mon Jul 14, 2014 2:06 pm UTC

Yubtzock wrote:
Will wrote:Had my best Arena run ever today, 4-3 :p
It's annoying, because I want to get better at Arena, but to play Arena you need gold, and the best way to get gold is to get good at Arena...

I believe someone on this thread suggested that already, but given how important the drafting part is I advise trying out the arena draft tiers if you are not doing that already. (Early on I was using Antigrav1ty's or Trump's list) Of course things like drafting around 10 early drops (1, 2 or 3 mana) or enough taunt and carddraw should come first, but knowing how much better one card is considered to be over the other is neat.

I have been watching videos and reading guides on Arena, and so I think my card valuation has gotten fairly good. Looking at various draft tier lists, and I've found that 95% of the picks I make are consistent with the tiers. I've gotten a lot better at playing out the games, too. I really just need more practice, which is why I'm griping that it's so hard to actually get *into* Arena at my skill level.
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Weeks » Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:46 pm UTC

Adacore wrote:I think mulliganning correctly is the biggest single improvement I've made. You really need to spend a few minutes studying your deck before you start playing an Arena run to work out how many 2- and 3-drops you have and what you want to mulligan for. If you have very few twos but lots of threes, for example, throw all your 3-drops back to try and find a 2-drop. If you have loads of 2-drops, don't be afraid to reroll the mediocre 2-mana card(s) in your opening hand in order to try and get some of the premium ones you want to be starting out with.
I concur. I noticed that when I lost badly with an arena deck, I hadn't been paying attention to the decklist before actually going in, and in consequence my mulligans would tend to be poor.

I think it's also important to have some sort of plan for the early game, especially when you get the coin. That's something else that you can't do well without examining your deck thoroughly.
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Adacore » Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:26 pm UTC

Yup - the coin is much more valuable in arena, because your curve won't be ideally crafted*, so you can use the coin to smooth it out.

I think the dramatic improvement in some of my classes (most notably Warrior) is because I sometimes decide that my deck is best suited for hard aggro, and decline most trades. If you keep enough pressure up then the opponent is forced into the favourable trades that you would want to be making anyway, and you get a heap of extra damage in. I'm naturally a value/control player, so it takes some thought/effort to play that way for me.

I'm still terrible at Rogue in arena, and that's generally considered one of the strongest classes these days by the top players, I think.

*Paladin decks always have the most ridiculous looking curves, because all their top tier cards are at 4 mana. I think the deck I played last night had 11 cards at 4. Here's my best recollection of the decklist:
Spoiler:
1 mana:
- Argent Squire
- Noble Sacrifice (got me way more value than I expected when I drafted it)
2 mana:
- Bloodsail Raider
- Crazed Alchemist
- Mad Bomber
- Youthful Brewmaster
3 mana:
- Harvest Golem
- Raging Worgen
- Shattered Sun Cleric
- Tauren Warrior
4 mana:
- Chillwind Yeti
- Consecration x4
- Stormwind Knight
- Truesilver Champion x2
- Violet Teacher x3 (tokens seem to synergize with the Paladin hero power pretty well, even if I did only have 5 spells)
5 mana (I had 5 cards at 5, which is unusual, but I think they're the five strongest neutral 5-drops, and gave me a load of flexibility):
- Azure Drake
- Darkscale Healer
- Silver Hand Knight
- Stampeding Kodo
- Stranglethorn Tiger
6 mana:
- Argent Commander
7 mana:
- Guardian of Kings x3

My mulligan strategy was to first see if I had any 1-, 2- or 3-mana cards. For 1-drops I'd keep Argent Squire, but not Noble Sacrifice unless I also had both 2- and 3-drops in hand. If I had multiple 2-drops I'd keep the best (Mad Bomber > Youthful Brewmaster > Crazed Alchemist > Bloodsail Raider, unless I had an Argent Squire, in which case the Mad Bomber moves to 3rd; I wanted to save the Bloodsail Raider until I had a Truesilver Champion out, if possible, since a 6/3 for 2 is such insane value). If I had the coin, and no 1-drop, I'd keep my best two 2-drops. I'd also keep my best 3-drop (Harvest Golem > Raging Worgen > Tauren Warrior) whether or not I had a 2-drop, since Paladin hero power is reasonable on turn 2, but wouldn't keep the Shattered Sun Cleric unless I had Argent Squire in hand. If I had both 2-mana (not counting Mad Bomber) and 3-mana plays, I'd keep them and throw back anything else I had except Chillwind Yeti (my best 4-drop) to look for a 1-mana play. If I had no 2- or 3-mana cards then everything goes back to try and find some early game.

I think I got pretty lucky with some of my mulligans, but once the deck got out to mid-late game, there wasn't much that could stop it, with 9 high quality cards at 5+ mana and four Consecrations for board clear. I would've had problems with some gigantic legendaries, I guess (Ysera / Rag / Deathwing), but I never saw them.

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Re: Hearthstone

Postby SirBryghtside » Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:54 pm UTC

One thing I've found with arena in terms of playing out the games is that you should value tempo over everything else. Effectively, tempo is the concept that you want to be spending all your mana every turn - a simple enough concept, but one with a lot of nuances I've worked out:

-If you have a Bloodfen Raptor and a Shattered Sun Cleric in your hand on 3 mana and an empty board, it can be worth losing the +1/+1 effect on the sun cleric just to be using up all 3 mana. The reason you do this is to free up mana for later turns - if you draw into another 2 mana creature on the next turn, for example, you can use up all 4 mana, whereas playing the raptor would leave the optimal play as the sun cleric - losing 2 mana overall for a potentially minor advantage.

-Avoid using the hero ability. Using your hero ability often for that minor advantage is very tempting, but it also means your creatures on the board will be less valuable, and the ones in your hand higher cost. Mage, Rogue and Druid can often get high value from their hero powers, so this rule applies slightly less to those classes, but for the rest it is often a really bad idea. I'll also note here that this is one of the reasons why Shadowform is a fairly awful card.

-Force your opponent to use their hero ability. This is a really subtle play that I've grown to absolutely adore - basically, when playing against a Druid, Mage, or Rogues without daggers, try to set up the board in a way that to get a decent trade, the opponent is forced to deal one damage to your creature. This is especially effective on turn 3 as arena decks rarely run a high amount of one-drops, meaning your opponent will almost always lose a huge amount of tempo by missing their play.

-Play your highest mana creatures. It might feel like I'm backtracking a bit here, but when you have 7 mana and a 6 drop, a 4 drop and a 3 drop in hand, it's usually better to throw down the 6 drop instead of the 4 and 3 drops together. This is because of the versatility having more lower-mana cards in hand gives you, which is often worth the wasted mana to be more efficient down the road.

-Pick the Raging Worgen. There are a few others like him that I can't think of right now, but the Worgen is an already good 3 drop in terms of stats that can win the game on his own if left unchecked. That potential, while not always relevant, will often win you at least one game in your run.

-And finally, don't go too crazy. These are guidelines to help make the optimal plays, but they mostly apply in a vacuum. Losing tempo for a gain in card advantage is something you should always be considering - just keep in mind that mana efficiency is a lot more important than it first seems.
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Adacore » Tue Jul 15, 2014 1:49 pm UTC

SirBryghtside wrote:-Avoid using the hero ability. Using your hero ability often for that minor advantage is very tempting, but it also means your creatures on the board will be less valuable, and the ones in your hand higher cost. Mage, Rogue and Druid can often get high value from their hero powers, so this rule applies slightly less to those classes, but for the rest it is often a really bad idea. I'll also note here that this is one of the reasons why Shadowform is a fairly awful card.

This is true in the early game, but in the mid-late game Shaman and Paladin want to be using their hero power as often as possible, unless the opponent is a Hunter. The incremental advantage of gaining an extra minion every turn without playing a card for it is huge when it moves towards topdecking in late game. Once it gets to turn 6-7+, I frequently forego playing my most expensive minion in order to get a Recruit/Totem, unless I'm feeling under pressure.

SirBryghtside wrote:-Force your opponent to use their hero ability. This is a really subtle play that I've grown to absolutely adore - basically, when playing against a Druid, Mage, or Rogues without daggers, try to set up the board in a way that to get a decent trade, the opponent is forced to deal one damage to your creature. This is especially effective on turn 3 as arena decks rarely run a high amount of one-drops, meaning your opponent will almost always lose a huge amount of tempo by missing their play.

This is something I only realised in the last couple of weeks, and I agree, I totally love doing it. The opponent is more often than not tempted into the 'value' play of clearing your minion, even if they had a better tempo-play by developing a card from their hand. In the long run, this gives you a huge advantage. I find it's big on turn 4 as well, since so many of the premium Arena minions are 4-drops and it represents a big loss of tempo if you fail to drop something reasonably big on 4 mana.

My lucky streak ended with a 2-win Priest Arena, which is the worst Arena result I've had in over a month. The deck felt pretty decent, too. I expected it to go at least 5 wins. I had two 5-win Priest quests active, so when I lost I got pissed off, crafted a Ragnaros to make Amaz's Priest deck (with a few substitutions for rares I'm missing), and won 3 in a row in casual with that. I feel a little silly blowing all that dust on a whim, but it felt kinda good. I crafted Bloodmage Thalnos too, since he's the only really important card missing from the Shaman deck I'm maining this season, and I figured if I was going to craft one legendary I may as well craft two.

EDIT: I'm currently 107 cards away from a full collection (out of 457 expert cards total, including duplicates of all non-legendaries). So I have 350 expert cards, 266 basic cards, and 1 promotion card, for 617 total.

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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Kag » Wed Jul 16, 2014 1:25 am UTC

Shadowform is definitely not a bad card at all.
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby SirBryghtside » Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:08 am UTC

Adacore wrote:This is true in the early game, but in the mid-late game Shaman and Paladin want to be using their hero power as often as possible, unless the opponent is a Hunter. The incremental advantage of gaining an extra minion every turn without playing a card for it is huge when it moves towards topdecking in late game. Once it gets to turn 6-7+, I frequently forego playing my most expensive minion in order to get a Recruit/Totem, unless I'm feeling under pressure.

True. You definitely want to be trying to transition into a more conservative, value-focused playstyle as the game goes on, and that's a solid way of doing it.
Kag wrote:Shadowform is definitely not a bad card at all.

I disagree :P

Its only immediate impact on the board is that, if you play it on turn 5 or later, it becomes a 5 mana Holy Smite. Use it before then and you miss a vital 3/4 drop, losing you a ridiculous amount of tempo. After you use it, you then have to pour more mana into it, reducing your mana efficiency further to have the option of a two mana Holy Smite that your opponent knows he can play around. If that's not enough to convince you, consider the devaluation of all those Northshire Clerics, Auchenai Soulpriests, Injured Blademasters and Lightspawns that are incredible picks in arena and mostly instant additions to every constructed deck - plus the general worsening of a draft that's created with the standard hero ability in mind up till that point. I'll accept that it's a decent card to throw down in the very late game when you're both topdecking on 10 mana, giving you a decent advantage over your opponent, but until then it's a dead card that hasn't really got the impact of throwing down a Boulderfist Ogre or whatever at that stage anyway.

Sorry for the rant, but I apparently have strong opinions on a fun card that won't turn up in 99% of arena runs anyway :P
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Adacore » Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:47 am UTC

Random thought of the day - I love having the Brewmasters in my Shaman decks, because it allows me to bank spell damage totems so I can have multiple copies down in future turns when I suddenly need to deal a lot of damage. If you already have a spell damage totem, throwing down another one and playing a lightning bolt will kill any of the ubiquitous 5-health minions for 2 mana, or a lightning storm gives you a better (4-5 damage) flamestrike for 4 mana.

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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Kag » Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:12 am UTC

SirBryghtside wrote:Its only immediate impact on the board is that, if you play it on turn 5 or later, it becomes a 5 mana Holy Smite. Use it before then and you miss a vital 3/4 drop, losing you a ridiculous amount of tempo. After you use it, you then have to pour more mana into it, reducing your mana efficiency further to have the option of a two mana Holy Smite that your opponent knows he can play around. If that's not enough to convince you, consider the devaluation of all those Northshire Clerics, Auchenai Soulpriests, Injured Blademasters and Lightspawns that are incredible picks in arena and mostly instant additions to every constructed deck - plus the general worsening of a draft that's created with the standard hero ability in mind up till that point. I'll accept that it's a decent card to throw down in the very late game when you're both topdecking on 10 mana, giving you a decent advantage over your opponent, but until then it's a dead card that hasn't really got the impact of throwing down a Boulderfist Ogre or whatever at that stage anyway.


You should almost never play it early, but in the late game you are giving up much less for a very powerful effect. The only way to play around it is to not have minions with two or less health, which is entirely untenable.

Northshire cleric will not be relevant by the time you shadowform. Auchenai Soulpriest is virtually identical. Injured Blademaster will usually be the same, but it might matter late. Lightspawn is sort of a bummer, but usually your opponent will dump on it to stop you from getting heal value anyway. In any case, all of those cards are still good.
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Jul 16, 2014 4:03 pm UTC

Kag wrote:Shadowform is definitely not a bad card at all.


I'd go with terrible.

It means your hero power is not reliable. Healing combos cease functioning once you get it out(or at least, cease being as effective), for instance. Sure, if you draw into both of them at the perfect time, it can work out good...but otherwise...it's slow damage.

And in arena, matches often don't go to full mana anyway.

And yes, you can play around it. You can drop your small minions that are expendable. You drop your 2 health creatures on the turn you need their boosts. You can drop a mess of them at once, knowing only one will die. Whatever. Knowledge is power.

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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Weeks » Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:36 am UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
Kag wrote:Shadowform is definitely not a bad card at all.


I'd go with terrible.

It means your hero power is not reliable. Healing combos cease functioning once you get it out(or at least, cease being as effective), for instance. Sure, if you draw into both of them at the perfect time, it can work out good...but otherwise...it's slow damage.

And in arena, matches often don't go to full mana anyway.

And yes, you can play around it. You can drop your small minions that are expendable. You drop your 2 health creatures on the turn you need their boosts. You can drop a mess of them at once, knowing only one will die. Whatever. Knowledge is power.
But Priest hero power is not reliable anyway. Your usual two drops will probably die before you can heal them. You might not get Northshire Cleric or Auchenai Soulpriest or Lightspawn (not just in the draft, but in the actual games). Being able to deal two damage to a minion (aka killing a lot of good 2 drops and weakened minions) without even using a card is a big deal.

It's not the flashiest or most convenient of cards but I wouldn't call it terrible.
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Adacore » Thu Jul 17, 2014 6:25 am UTC

Priest hero power is very strong in the lategame. Probably only the Paladin power is better once you're topdecking (and arguably Priest is superior, if you can get a minion with 5+ health down). Shadowform is better, granted, but I'm not sure it's enough better to risk having a dead card until turn 8-9. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's terrible - I'd draft it over most of the murlocs, or the more ridiculous legendaries, for example, but I certainly wouldn't consider it 'good', and if you have 2 or more Auchenai Soulpriests it can become actively bad (since you lose the ability to choose between damage and healing).

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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Weeks » Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:52 am UTC

I think we all agree that Auchenai Soulpriest > Shadowform
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Kag » Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:11 pm UTC

Definitely. Auchenai Soulpriest is one of the best rares you can get. Shadowform is just better than average for an epic, because fully half of the neutral epics are garbage and mind games sucks.

Tyndmyr wrote:You can drop a mess of them at once, knowing only one will die.


I'm pretty sure playing around shadowform by playing into Holy Nova is a bad idea.
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby SirBryghtside » Thu Jul 17, 2014 3:45 pm UTC

Kag wrote:Shadowform is just better than average for an epic, because fully half of the neutral epics are garbage and mind games sucks.

True that. I probably shouldn't have said it was terrible - it at least has some impact on the board, which is more than can be said for, say, Hungry Crab, Mountain Giant and Doomsayer - but it looks a lot better than it actually is. I'd definitely pick a Southsea Captain over it in arena.
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Will » Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:25 pm UTC

Just had the most hilarious win on casual.

Playing Druid vs a Rogue. Her side's clear, I have a 2/4 on my side. I'm thinking I'm going to lose, as I have a hand full of spells and no creatures. Then she plays Leeroy Jenkins, hits me with him and brings me down to 2 life, but doesn't kill me. She's at 19 life, but suddenly I have 3 creatures on my side. So I Starfire her in the face, then play Savage Roar which with the whelps gives me 10 damage on the board. Starfire's cantrip draws me a claw, and with innervate I play it, too, giving me *exactly* enough for the kill.
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby SirBryghtside » Thu Jul 17, 2014 8:06 pm UTC

Spambot5546 wrote:Well...who used it? I'd sleep next to Felicia Day's used bacon.

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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Adacore » Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:34 pm UTC

SirBryghtside wrote:True that. I probably shouldn't have said it was terrible - it at least has some impact on the board, which is more than can be said for, say, Hungry Crab, Mountain Giant and Doomsayer - but it looks a lot better than it actually is. I'd definitely pick a Southsea Captain over it in arena.

I had one Arena where I had a semi-synergistic pirates deck. Southsea Captain, a couple of Bloodsail Raiders, a Southsea Deckhand and two Dread Corsairs. I think I was playing as Rogue, but it might've been Warrior. Either way, enough weapons to activate all the abilities fairly often. It was pretty hilarious to play, although I don't think it did spectacularly well.

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Yay! Naxx! So I have until the 20th August to save another 700 gold to get me to the 2800 required to pay for everything. Actually, probably longer than that, since I'm busy from the 13th to the 18th, I doubt I'll be able to complete the 4th wing before the final one is released. I think I can manage that.

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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:17 pm UTC

Kag wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:You can drop a mess of them at once, knowing only one will die.


I'm pretty sure playing around shadowform by playing into Holy Nova is a bad idea.


Nah. You *know* they have shadowform. You don't know that they have a nova. Additionally, you might be relatively confident that they don't(few cards in hand, already burned one, whatever).

Holy Nova is a pretty good card, and worth considering, but it doesn't make Shadowform good.

Weeks wrote:But Priest hero power is not reliable anyway. Your usual two drops will probably die before you can heal them. You might not get Northshire Cleric or Auchenai Soulpriest or Lightspawn (not just in the draft, but in the actual games).


Priest hero power is great. If you don't need to heal anything ever, including yourself...that's probably already a win.

Also, if you're running 5-6 cards and don't pull one of them...the randomizer hates you. The decks just aren't that big. You should draw into some of those.

And you shouldn't be relying on them damaging but not killing your creatures. You attack, causing damage, and then heal. Easy day. Don't just toss Northshire out there by itself to die...hold it back until you can get cards off it. It's much like a number of hunter beasts. Pretty meh on it's own as a random beatstick, but really great in a combo.

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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Weeks » Fri Jul 18, 2014 8:45 pm UTC

It's not that you never need to heal, it's that there are better things you could be doing with your board. You *hope* your minions have high enough health to survive the attack so you can heal them. Which is entirely plausible of course, but hitting something for 2 damage for 2 mana is generally more useful.

Tyndmyr wrote:And you shouldn't be relying on them damaging but not killing your creatures. You attack, causing damage, and then heal. Easy day. Don't just toss Northshire out there by itself to die...hold it back until you can get cards off it. It's much like a number of hunter beasts. Pretty meh on it's own as a random beatstick, but really great in a combo.
Yes, of course. The point I was trying to make was that combos aren't easy to pull off in Arena.
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Kag » Sat Jul 19, 2014 3:13 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Holy Nova is a pretty good card, and worth considering, but it doesn't make Shadowform good.


Well, no, that you might get hilariously blown out by Holy Nova is just an added bonus for priest players. The actual problem with that particular play is that it does literally nothing to deal with the spell. You're just giving them card advantage and hoping really hard that you have enough stuff to get stable control of the board.

Also, it's pretty unrealistic that you're going to have a bunch of low-cost dudes to dump out in one turn in an Arena deck. By the time you have a bunch of mana you don't usually have a bunch of cards unless you have an unspeakably bad draw.
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