Hearthstone

Of the Tabletop, and other, lesser varieties.

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Weeks
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Weeks » Thu May 18, 2017 6:37 pm UTC

I originally thought it became bad due to all the dragons leaving standard, but Drakonid Operative is still good. Apparently it's favored against Quest Rogue, which is probably why Dog ran it...I should watch that tourney
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Eebster the Great
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Eebster the Great » Thu May 18, 2017 7:37 pm UTC

Chen wrote:Kalimos, Blazecaller and Fire Elemental are all basically tempo cards not value ones (assuming you use Kalimos to clear). Servant is value. The only decks I can think of that would go to Fatigue would be some sort of miracle priest deck and they're going to wreck you with Shadow Visions->Un'goro pack or Lyra if the game goes that long.

My understanding of "value" is "effect per card" and tempo is "effect per mana cost." So Pyros is a high value, low tempo card, while Humongous Razorleaf + Silence is a high tempo, low value combo. In that sense, Blazecaller has worse tempo than Fire Elemental but better value. Servant of Kalimos is pretty high value (definitely better than Stonehill Defender, I would argue), but not always. If you don't get the elemental synergy, it is bad tempo and bad value. If all you discover is Air Elemental, Magma Rager, and Dust Devil, it's just bad. Kalimos, however, is guaranteed value if you get the synergy, often better value than Onyxia.

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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Chen » Thu May 18, 2017 7:53 pm UTC

Generally tempo is spending cards/resources to strengthen your board position. Value generally is building resources; not necessarily at the cost of board position but it usually does come down to that. Most card draw are value plays since drawing cards tends to slow down how well you can fight the board. Cards that produce other cards tend to be categorized as value cards, compared to ones that fight the board which tend to fall under tempo. Clearly there's overlap and the definitions aren't firm. When you talk about "out valuing" a deck it tends to mean running them out of resources while you keep building them.

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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Eebster the Great » Thu May 18, 2017 8:05 pm UTC

Chen wrote:Generally tempo is spending cards/resources to strengthen your board position. Value generally is building resources; not necessarily at the cost of board position but it usually does come down to that. Most card draw are value plays since drawing cards tends to slow down how well you can fight the board. Cards that produce other cards tend to be categorized as value cards, compared to ones that fight the board which tend to fall under tempo. Clearly there's overlap and the definitions aren't firm. When you talk about "out valuing" a deck it tends to mean running them out of resources while you keep building them.

That seems to be exactly equal to what I said. Mana is a renewable resource, and cards are not. Cards that give a lot of value are "value cards". Cards that can be played early--i.e. low mana cost cards--are tempo cards. In long matches, you want more value, because you will have plenty of mana. In short matches, you want more tempo, because you will have plenty of cards. Cards and mana are pretty much the only real resources in Hearthstone.

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SDK
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby SDK » Thu May 18, 2017 8:23 pm UTC

And your life total! That's a resource too.

You're both pretty much saying the same thing, but Chen, I think drawing the line between tempo and value in terms of board position is flawed. Flamestrike is definitely a value card. It can also gain you tempo, and that's often what you're hoping to do (catch-up from all your lost tempo prior to turn 7), but knocking out three or four of their cards with one of yours is clearly card advantage (what value is, at heart). Cards vs. mana is a much cleaner line to draw, and makes it more obvious when you're behind in one, the other, or both.
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Weeks
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Weeks » Thu May 18, 2017 9:53 pm UTC

Emotes are the fourth resource. I greeeet youuuu. I greeeet youuuu.
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Eebster the Great
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Eebster the Great » Thu May 18, 2017 10:19 pm UTC

Weeks wrote:Emotes are the fourth resource. I greeeet youuuu. I greeeet youuuu.

That's also the main reason to play Mayor Noggenfogger. JARAXXUS IS . . . sorry.

Unfortunately, Squelch is completely broken and stops all emotes. Brode pls nerf.

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Re: Hearthstone

Postby mosc » Wed May 24, 2017 12:11 pm UTC

Weeks wrote:I originally thought it became bad due to all the dragons leaving standard, but Drakonid Operative is still good. Apparently it's favored against Quest Rogue, which is probably why Dog ran it...I should watch that tourney

I use dragon priest in wild when I get a priest quest. Zoo and pirates are not fast enough to deal with it and it has enough pressure to out-muscle a control deck too. You can still get games where dragons don't show up or you get no early game against aggro but it has at least decent matchups against anything in wild.

I've seen standard dragon priest, I don't think it's that good. It uses 4 epics from the latest set though which I think scares a lot of people off.
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Chen » Wed May 24, 2017 1:32 pm UTC

mosc wrote:I've seen standard dragon priest, I don't think it's that good. It uses 4 epics from the latest set though which I think scares a lot of people off.


I assume the epics are the 2 Shadow Visions and 2 Primordial Drake. The drake is neutral though and a great card in many decks. Shadow Visions is also fantastic but I'll grant much more limited since Priest is still not the most popular class. I still haven't crafted them even though they'd be a big deal for my inner fire priest deck. I don't play it enough to be worth the 800 dust and I'm still opening Un'goro packs so I'll give it some time I think.

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Weeks
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Re: Hearthstone

Postby Weeks » Wed May 24, 2017 3:41 pm UTC

You could also change one primordial for Ysera. Which is a legendary! But one I hold dear as the first I crafted.

My Un'Goro packs have been pretty meh. I got a bunch of Warrior cards, the class I don't play! I don't even have the quest, or any warrior legendary, or even a second Brawl.
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