Hearthstone

Of the Tabletop, and other, lesser varieties.

Moderators: SecondTalon, Moderators General, Prelates

User avatar
Weeks
Hey Baby, wanna make a fortnight?
Posts: 1762
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:41 am UTC
Location: Panama

Re: Hearthstone

Postby Weeks » Thu May 18, 2017 6:37 pm UTC

I originally thought it became bad due to all the dragons leaving standard, but Drakonid Operative is still good. Apparently it's favored against Quest Rogue, which is probably why Dog ran it...I should watch that tourney
Am I gregnant
suffer-cait wrote:One day I'm gun a go visit weeks and discover they're just a computer in a trashcan at an ice cream shop.
rath358 wrote:manually adding a long list of swear words to my dictionary worked.

User avatar
Eebster the Great
Posts: 2479
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:58 am UTC

Re: Hearthstone

Postby Eebster the Great » Thu May 18, 2017 7:37 pm UTC

Chen wrote:Kalimos, Blazecaller and Fire Elemental are all basically tempo cards not value ones (assuming you use Kalimos to clear). Servant is value. The only decks I can think of that would go to Fatigue would be some sort of miracle priest deck and they're going to wreck you with Shadow Visions->Un'goro pack or Lyra if the game goes that long.

My understanding of "value" is "effect per card" and tempo is "effect per mana cost." So Pyros is a high value, low tempo card, while Humongous Razorleaf + Silence is a high tempo, low value combo. In that sense, Blazecaller has worse tempo than Fire Elemental but better value. Servant of Kalimos is pretty high value (definitely better than Stonehill Defender, I would argue), but not always. If you don't get the elemental synergy, it is bad tempo and bad value. If all you discover is Air Elemental, Magma Rager, and Dust Devil, it's just bad. Kalimos, however, is guaranteed value if you get the synergy, often better value than Onyxia.

Chen
Posts: 5075
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:53 pm UTC
Location: Montreal

Re: Hearthstone

Postby Chen » Thu May 18, 2017 7:53 pm UTC

Generally tempo is spending cards/resources to strengthen your board position. Value generally is building resources; not necessarily at the cost of board position but it usually does come down to that. Most card draw are value plays since drawing cards tends to slow down how well you can fight the board. Cards that produce other cards tend to be categorized as value cards, compared to ones that fight the board which tend to fall under tempo. Clearly there's overlap and the definitions aren't firm. When you talk about "out valuing" a deck it tends to mean running them out of resources while you keep building them.

User avatar
Eebster the Great
Posts: 2479
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:58 am UTC

Re: Hearthstone

Postby Eebster the Great » Thu May 18, 2017 8:05 pm UTC

Chen wrote:Generally tempo is spending cards/resources to strengthen your board position. Value generally is building resources; not necessarily at the cost of board position but it usually does come down to that. Most card draw are value plays since drawing cards tends to slow down how well you can fight the board. Cards that produce other cards tend to be categorized as value cards, compared to ones that fight the board which tend to fall under tempo. Clearly there's overlap and the definitions aren't firm. When you talk about "out valuing" a deck it tends to mean running them out of resources while you keep building them.

That seems to be exactly equal to what I said. Mana is a renewable resource, and cards are not. Cards that give a lot of value are "value cards". Cards that can be played early--i.e. low mana cost cards--are tempo cards. In long matches, you want more value, because you will have plenty of mana. In short matches, you want more tempo, because you will have plenty of cards. Cards and mana are pretty much the only real resources in Hearthstone.

User avatar
SDK
Posts: 440
Joined: Thu May 22, 2014 7:40 pm UTC
Location: Canada

Re: Hearthstone

Postby SDK » Thu May 18, 2017 8:23 pm UTC

And your life total! That's a resource too.

You're both pretty much saying the same thing, but Chen, I think drawing the line between tempo and value in terms of board position is flawed. Flamestrike is definitely a value card. It can also gain you tempo, and that's often what you're hoping to do (catch-up from all your lost tempo prior to turn 7), but knocking out three or four of their cards with one of yours is clearly card advantage (what value is, at heart). Cards vs. mana is a much cleaner line to draw, and makes it more obvious when you're behind in one, the other, or both.
The biggest number (63 quintillion googols in debt)

User avatar
Weeks
Hey Baby, wanna make a fortnight?
Posts: 1762
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:41 am UTC
Location: Panama

Re: Hearthstone

Postby Weeks » Thu May 18, 2017 9:53 pm UTC

Emotes are the fourth resource. I greeeet youuuu. I greeeet youuuu.
Am I gregnant
suffer-cait wrote:One day I'm gun a go visit weeks and discover they're just a computer in a trashcan at an ice cream shop.
rath358 wrote:manually adding a long list of swear words to my dictionary worked.

User avatar
Eebster the Great
Posts: 2479
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:58 am UTC

Re: Hearthstone

Postby Eebster the Great » Thu May 18, 2017 10:19 pm UTC

Weeks wrote:Emotes are the fourth resource. I greeeet youuuu. I greeeet youuuu.

That's also the main reason to play Mayor Noggenfogger. JARAXXUS IS . . . sorry.

Unfortunately, Squelch is completely broken and stops all emotes. Brode pls nerf.

User avatar
mosc
Doesn't care what you think.
Posts: 5360
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 3:03 pm UTC

Re: Hearthstone

Postby mosc » Wed May 24, 2017 12:11 pm UTC

Weeks wrote:I originally thought it became bad due to all the dragons leaving standard, but Drakonid Operative is still good. Apparently it's favored against Quest Rogue, which is probably why Dog ran it...I should watch that tourney

I use dragon priest in wild when I get a priest quest. Zoo and pirates are not fast enough to deal with it and it has enough pressure to out-muscle a control deck too. You can still get games where dragons don't show up or you get no early game against aggro but it has at least decent matchups against anything in wild.

I've seen standard dragon priest, I don't think it's that good. It uses 4 epics from the latest set though which I think scares a lot of people off.
Title: It was given by the XKCD moderators to me because they didn't care what I thought (I made some rantings, etc). I care what YOU think, the joke is forums.xkcd doesn't care what I think.

Chen
Posts: 5075
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:53 pm UTC
Location: Montreal

Re: Hearthstone

Postby Chen » Wed May 24, 2017 1:32 pm UTC

mosc wrote:I've seen standard dragon priest, I don't think it's that good. It uses 4 epics from the latest set though which I think scares a lot of people off.


I assume the epics are the 2 Shadow Visions and 2 Primordial Drake. The drake is neutral though and a great card in many decks. Shadow Visions is also fantastic but I'll grant much more limited since Priest is still not the most popular class. I still haven't crafted them even though they'd be a big deal for my inner fire priest deck. I don't play it enough to be worth the 800 dust and I'm still opening Un'goro packs so I'll give it some time I think.

User avatar
Weeks
Hey Baby, wanna make a fortnight?
Posts: 1762
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:41 am UTC
Location: Panama

Re: Hearthstone

Postby Weeks » Wed May 24, 2017 3:41 pm UTC

You could also change one primordial for Ysera. Which is a legendary! But one I hold dear as the first I crafted.

My Un'Goro packs have been pretty meh. I got a bunch of Warrior cards, the class I don't play! I don't even have the quest, or any warrior legendary, or even a second Brawl.
Am I gregnant
suffer-cait wrote:One day I'm gun a go visit weeks and discover they're just a computer in a trashcan at an ice cream shop.
rath358 wrote:manually adding a long list of swear words to my dictionary worked.

User avatar
Weeks
Hey Baby, wanna make a fortnight?
Posts: 1762
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:41 am UTC
Location: Panama

Re: Hearthstone

Postby Weeks » Thu May 25, 2017 3:51 pm UTC

A rogue arena deck I'm not sure about.

Spoiler:
Arena 21-05 0300.png


Note the massive peak at 3. I wanted to practice my rogue, maybe watch some pro players do a rogue arena to see if I can catch anything I wouldn't see at first glance. I kind of don't wanna mess up what is apparently the second best arena class, and I recently had the displeasure of retiring a horrible shaman arena deck.

edit: As a highlight: I got offered about 5 servants of kalimos. I felt so awful. :(
Am I gregnant
suffer-cait wrote:One day I'm gun a go visit weeks and discover they're just a computer in a trashcan at an ice cream shop.
rath358 wrote:manually adding a long list of swear words to my dictionary worked.

User avatar
SDK
Posts: 440
Joined: Thu May 22, 2014 7:40 pm UTC
Location: Canada

Re: Hearthstone

Postby SDK » Thu May 25, 2017 6:45 pm UTC

That is a solid deck. 3-drops are the new 2-drops. 2-drops used to be extremely important in Arena - I was happy if I had 6-8 of them. I'm finding more and more that that's completely unnecessary in the new meta. Proof:
Spoiler:
12-1 Rogue

1 Backstab

1 Bladed Cultist
1 Glacial Shard
1 Hallucination
1 Swashburgler

1 Envenom Weapon
1 Fan of Knives
1 Igneous Elemental
3 Shadow Strike
1 SI:7 Agent
1 Silithid Swarmer
1 Stonehill Defender
2 Tar Creeper
1 Thunder Lizard

1 Fire Plume Phoenix
1 Obsidian Shard

1 Assassin's Blade
1 Servant of Kalimos

1 Big-Time Racketeer
1 Corrupted Seer
1 Frozen Crusher
1 Thistle Tea

1 Hogger
2 Primordial Drake
1 Ozruk
1 Ultrasaur


Curve
0: 1
1: 4
2: 0
3: 12
4: 2
5: 2
6: 4
7+: 5


Looks a lot like yours, actually! Just ran this a couple of days ago. The spike at 3 seems crazy, but take a closer look at what you've got there. How many of those cards are you actually going to play turn 3? Maybe 6 of them? That's not so bad. The rest are reactionary and give great value for little mana. That's exactly what you want, 3-drops that can take down 5 and 6 drops in the late game. As it happens, that's exactly what you've got here.

The meta is so shifted to control now that 2-drops are useless. I've played many arena runs since Un'Goro was released, and I've always done poorly when I try to have a nice spike at 2. They're just not high value enough, you will lose the late game. My last three or four runs have been more like this, including an 11-3 run with Warlock with just two 2-drops. The above is an extreme example (I'm not saying you should aim to have zero 2-drops), but there is no longer a need for early game tempo. Pick it up in the midgame and you'll be better off.

PS: This is also helped by Rogue and Warlock hero powers being the best Turn 2 plays (with only Paladin really coming close otherwise - you may need to shore up the early game a bit more with other classes).
The biggest number (63 quintillion googols in debt)

User avatar
Weeks
Hey Baby, wanna make a fortnight?
Posts: 1762
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:41 am UTC
Location: Panama

Re: Hearthstone

Postby Weeks » Thu May 25, 2017 7:28 pm UTC

That's reassuring, now I don't feel so bad about the draft. I feel worse about potentially botching it though...I'll run it over the weekend I guess. I've been playing the brawl in the meantime, kind of relearning the basics again. Can't hurt.
Am I gregnant
suffer-cait wrote:One day I'm gun a go visit weeks and discover they're just a computer in a trashcan at an ice cream shop.
rath358 wrote:manually adding a long list of swear words to my dictionary worked.

User avatar
SDK
Posts: 440
Joined: Thu May 22, 2014 7:40 pm UTC
Location: Canada

Re: Hearthstone

Postby SDK » Thu May 25, 2017 8:50 pm UTC

Just take it slow and use your cards wisely. That's the key for Rogue.

So... I opened a golden Lysa (sorry, Weeks! :mrgreen: ) and an Elise Trailblazer back-to-back yesterday. Thought I'd try building Combo Priest. I felt like I had no idea what I was doing, but just won my first game on turn 5 with a gigantic Tar Creeper, so I guess I must be doing something right!

EDIT: Teehee, game 2 win on turn 7 with a 28/28! I think I like this deck! :P
The biggest number (63 quintillion googols in debt)

User avatar
Weeks
Hey Baby, wanna make a fortnight?
Posts: 1762
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:41 am UTC
Location: Panama

Re: Hearthstone

Postby Weeks » Thu May 25, 2017 11:18 pm UTC

You're tearing me apart Lysa! I would've dusted a golden Lyra though. I dust all golden cards for loads of money.
Am I gregnant
suffer-cait wrote:One day I'm gun a go visit weeks and discover they're just a computer in a trashcan at an ice cream shop.
rath358 wrote:manually adding a long list of swear words to my dictionary worked.

User avatar
SDK
Posts: 440
Joined: Thu May 22, 2014 7:40 pm UTC
Location: Canada

Re: Hearthstone

Postby SDK » Fri May 26, 2017 1:58 pm UTC

I play enough Arena that dust is not usually a problem. Still got a golden Gruul from way back that I would dust first if I ever need to. I'm getting low now though - I think I've spent about 5000 dust on Un'Goro alone!

EDIT: Uh, right, Lyra. Been watching too much Game of Thrones maybe.

This deck is good. Started playing Ranked after a couple trial runs on casual. Still catching myself making mistakes, but I'm learning. Despite that, I'm sitting at Rank 6 with maybe a 85% winrate from Rank 10? I don't like the feeling of sitting there with an empty hand (which happens if they answer your first few threats), but I think that can be managed somewhat if I played my minions smarter. Apart from that, if you draw well, this deck is fantastic.

By the way, Weeks, not sure what you ended up doing with that Lyra, but I'm convinced that Elise is not necessary for this deck. You could build it relatively cheap and it would be just as good as the version I'm playing.
The biggest number (63 quintillion googols in debt)

User avatar
SDK
Posts: 440
Joined: Thu May 22, 2014 7:40 pm UTC
Location: Canada

Re: Hearthstone

Postby SDK » Fri May 26, 2017 8:02 pm UTC

IMG_3168.PNG


Teehee! :mrgreen:
The biggest number (63 quintillion googols in debt)

User avatar
Weeks
Hey Baby, wanna make a fortnight?
Posts: 1762
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 12:41 am UTC
Location: Panama

Re: Hearthstone

Postby Weeks » Sat May 27, 2017 2:35 pm UTC

I actually got bored of the combo deck, so I made the dragon priest Dog ran in Dreamhack except with Lyra over Elise. I've only done Hunter on ladder though.
Am I gregnant
suffer-cait wrote:One day I'm gun a go visit weeks and discover they're just a computer in a trashcan at an ice cream shop.
rath358 wrote:manually adding a long list of swear words to my dictionary worked.


Return to “Gaming”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests