Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth

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Re: Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth

Postby bigglesworth » Tue May 13, 2014 5:55 pm UTC

It was really weird how your artillery would be damaged by the spearmen you were attacking though.
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Re: Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth

Postby infernovia » Wed May 14, 2014 8:21 am UTC

Yeah, sort of. They really need a way to show you scale in Civ 4. When you think it's 3 macemen going against 3 tanks... yeah of course it's ridiculous. But a stack of maceman (so 100000)? It's a lot more acceptable. Civ was always a game of economy and scale, they just needed a way to graphically represent that.

But yeah, the combat had issues. I was super disappointed by the warlords expansion because it didn't really revamp the combat at all, I thought it was extremely lazy that they just changed a couple of traits around. I think the general system is the best way to go as it has the best of both worlds, but of course, that will change the flavor of the combat and units a lot.

Diadem wrote:I never understood why they changed it, because the combat mechanics of Civ4 worked quite well, especially in multiplayer.

Most people can't even play the Civ games in normal mode. And they definitely don't play multi. So I am sure Firaxis looked at that and went "what makes the player think he is smart and intelligent when he looks at combat so he can engage it in a more tactical level?"

I still don't understand why they completely eliminated stacking, even the console/touchscreen version had the ability to combine similar units into a super unit.

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Re: Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth

Postby CorruptUser » Wed May 14, 2014 5:34 pm UTC

Maybe they could've had stacks similar to the armies in Civ 3, though without generals required. Like, you make an army of an axeman, spearman, and archer to defend your city from a variety of attack types, upgrading as the years passed by. Really my main criticism of IV was the lack of fast production option. In 3, you could turn the game speed down to slow but increase the production rate. The result being the world was settled by the Middle Ages, a city built in 1600 could rival an ancient one (which has more people, Rome or New York?), etc.

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Re: Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth

Postby infernovia » Wed May 14, 2014 8:47 pm UTC

Are you talking about growth or production? Because if you are talking about production, that is the biggest issue I had with V.

I like the general system because it gives the player granual level control of army composition without dealing with promotions on an individual level (the most annoying thing about IV) and also does not require micromanaging stack odds. You can retain promotions for generals though, and that should be much more manageable.

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Re: Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth

Postby Koa » Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:01 am UTC

Well, I think it's clear now that it's an uninspired civ5 clone. Reskinned for resale. The most divergent detail being a technology web.

Screw you guys, I'm going home.

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Re: Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:58 am UTC

So it's basically a very large mod to Civ V. That's not necessarily a terrible thing; Counterstrike was initially just a Half-Life mod.

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Re: Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth

Postby firechicago » Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:57 pm UTC

Koa wrote:Well, I think it's clear now that it's an uninspired civ5 clone. Reskinned for resale. The most divergent detail being a technology web.

Screw you guys, I'm going home.

What tipped you off to the fact that it was going to be a "civ5 clone?" Was it maybe the word "Civilization" in the title? Why would you expect a Civilization game made by Firaxis to be anything other than an evolutionary step forward from Civ5? So yeah, if you hated Civ 5, you probably won't like this game. In other shocking newsflashes: People who didn't like Mass Effect also didn't like Mass Effect 2 and people who hated Defense of the Ancients also strongly disliked League of Legends.

As for "uninspired" that very much remains to be seen. Between the new tech system, quests, affinities and native lifeforms, there's more than enough to seriously change the gameplay (while remaining well within the realm of the Civ genre.) Whether those changes add up to something worth playing is a question nobody can answer right now.

Seriously, you could just as easily argue that Civ 2 was just "an uninspired civ clone. Reskinned for resale. The most divergent detail being turning the map 45 degrees."

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Re: Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:42 pm UTC

I think in terms of quality, the civ games go IV, I, II, V, III. Alpha Centauri I would argue is equal to IV. Maybe higher. Colonization was equal to I, the remake of colonization not so much. MoM (Master of Magic, tied with Alpha Centauri) was essentially a civ 1 mod, with magic, released the same year as Magic the Gathering. Which is kind of weird. Micro prose creates the MTG computer games, and MoM has the same 5 schools of magic with similar abilities.

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Re: Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth

Postby DaBigCheez » Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:20 pm UTC

firechicago wrote:
Koa wrote:Well, I think it's clear now that it's an uninspired civ5 clone. Reskinned for resale. The most divergent detail being a technology web.

Screw you guys, I'm going home.

What tipped you off to the fact that it was going to be a "civ5 clone?" Was it maybe the word "Civilization" in the title? Why would you expect a Civilization game made by Firaxis to be anything other than an evolutionary step forward from Civ5? So yeah, if you hated Civ 5, you probably won't like this game. In other shocking newsflashes: People who didn't like Mass Effect also didn't like Mass Effect 2 and people who hated Defense of the Ancients also strongly disliked League of Legends.

As for "uninspired" that very much remains to be seen. Between the new tech system, quests, affinities and native lifeforms, there's more than enough to seriously change the gameplay (while remaining well within the realm of the Civ genre.) Whether those changes add up to something worth playing is a question nobody can answer right now.

Seriously, you could just as easily argue that Civ 2 was just "an uninspired civ clone. Reskinned for resale. The most divergent detail being turning the map 45 degrees."


And Alpha Centauri was just a Civ 2 reskin with a couple unit-customization features.
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Re: Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Jun 12, 2014 4:11 pm UTC

Plus altitude effects, terraforming, actual faction abilities, customizable factions (yes!), complex government types, territory, and a few more.

Wonders Secret Projects were FAR overpowered though. In the expansion, I loved playing the Drones. Sure, the University got all the science except Morgan got even more science and the hippies got mindrape worms of doom from the start and the others got jack shit in comparison, but the Drones could quickly overwhelm the map with the production bonuses and not worry about corruption. And production led to everything else.

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Re: Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth

Postby EMTP » Thu Jun 12, 2014 7:05 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Plus altitude effects, terraforming, actual faction abilities, customizable factions (yes!), complex government types, territory, and a few more.

Wonders Secret Projects were FAR overpowered though. In the expansion, I loved playing the Drones. Sure, the University got all the science except Morgan got even more science and the hippies got mindrape worms of doom from the start and the others got jack shit in comparison, but the Drones could quickly overwhelm the map with the production bonuses and not worry about corruption. And production led to everything else.


Have you read Vel's strategy guide?

It's an awesome read if you like the game. The production-first strategy gets heavy play there, although of course there are other ways to skin the cat.

Koa wrote:Well, I think it's clear now that it's an uninspired civ5 clone. Reskinned for resale. The most divergent detail being a technology web.

Screw you guys, I'm going home.


As to the "Civ clone" worry, of course they are going to build on that successful franchise. And of course it's going to be hard for us dinosaurs, who have loved this game and played it for years, and know every nook and cranny and semi-cheat work-around in the original game, to suddenly jump 15 years into the present of 4X games. But I for one am going to give it a chance, and probably more than one chance. I love this game enough to want to be part of its future, even if the future texts constantly when I'm talking to it and has piercings in odd places.
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Re: Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth

Postby Adacore » Thu Jun 12, 2014 11:10 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:I think in terms of quality, the civ games go IV, I, II, V, III.

I think my ordering would be II, IV, V, I, III, if I were looking for a game to play right now. There were some fundamental problems with Civ1 that were overlooked at the time because the game was so seminal, but one you've played the sequels they really show, imo. In terms of 'quality at time of release, relative to the competition', Civ1 was probably the best of the lot, though.

I would like to see them take a bigger experimental step from Civ5, but I can completely understand the logic behind sticking with a formula that works. And also, if they don't change too much of the fundamental stuff, maybe they'll actually be able to make a game that's relatively balanced and bug-free on release. That's almost certainly excessively wishful thinking, though.

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Re: Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth

Postby Koa » Fri Jun 13, 2014 1:05 am UTC

I hate to fan this flame but I also wouldn't want to be a hypocrite.

firechicago wrote:Why would you expect a Civilization game made by Firaxis to be anything other than an evolutionary step forward from Civ5? So yeah, if you hated Civ 5, you probably won't like this game.

No, that's actually what I expected and hoped. This certainly isn't a step forward for the series. I guess that's why it's not civ6. Funny you didn't mention that part. I liked civ5, just not enough to spend $50 to play it again. I would guess that that is largely what this title is going to come down to.

Mass Effect was a fairly polarizing series. You don't have to go far to find one who likes one game but not another, and it's not always the same configuration. I think that's valuable. Despite being a very tightly produced series with fairly clear goals, it went through many changes. Changes that some people liked, changes that some people didn't like, and people who can't tolerate change.

I see no change here, and that is my problem with it. It looks too safe, the changes too small. It could be argued that civ has always been very slow and iterative, but that's a fallacy that isn't going to change my mind about this game.

I'm pretty confident in my assessment as it involves me, which was just vague and negative enough that it would rile up fans. It was half a comment to all of the discussion above about unit stacks and such being for naught. I'm also pretty confident that my opinion can always change, and that the game isn't finished. But... release date is still Q3 this year. So, 3 months or so if they want to hit that. That puts some perspective on it, doesn't it? Smells of a safe intermittent title to bring in some money for later, larger releases. One that cashes in on Alpha Centauri public interest, the main quality to justify the price tag. Uninspired? Up to you, of course. It always was.

I probably wouldn't have minded if it was more clear that this is practically a standalone expansion. Less money with that admittance.

I think I'll wait until it's half the price. You fans have fun though.

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Re: Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:02 am UTC

It'll be 66% off 6 months after release. Just wait for a Steam deal if you don't need to play it immediately.

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Re: Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth

Postby Vaniver » Sat Jun 14, 2014 4:36 am UTC

DaBigCheez wrote:And Alpha Centauri was just a Civ 2 reskin with a couple unit-customization features.
It bothers me whenever someone brings up the unit customization (you almost never used anything less than the best tech available, so there were basically a handful of good archetypes that were optimal, and then lots of opportunities to make mistakes) instead of, like, the social engineering or the terraforming.

Anyway, I suspect that anyone disappointed by Civ V shouldn't buy this release day, but wait for the user reviews a few weeks after it comes out, and sufficient people have had the chance to play a few games to completion.
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Re: Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth

Postby EMTP » Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:59 am UTC

Vaniver wrote:It bothers me whenever someone brings up the unit customization (you almost never used anything less than the best tech available, so there were basically a handful of good archetypes that were optimal, and then lots of opportunities to make mistakes) instead of, like, the social engineering or the terraforming.


I would contend that all three of those things make the game great. Unit customization results in great units the computer will never suggest -- probe cruisers, rover-based colony pods that roll off the transport and found a base in enemy territory, armored formers, cheap empath rovers for worm patrol, drop-amphibious troops to take sea bases . . .
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Re: Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth

Postby Xanthir » Sun Jun 15, 2014 7:04 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:
DaBigCheez wrote:And Alpha Centauri was just a Civ 2 reskin with a couple unit-customization features.
It bothers me whenever someone brings up the unit customization (you almost never used anything less than the best tech available, so there were basically a handful of good archetypes that were optimal, and then lots of opportunities to make mistakes) instead of, like, the social engineering or the terraforming.

Yeah, that was the best "government choice with trade-offs" done in the series so far. Civ 4 tried it, but the differences between social policies were small and they didn't really overlap, so you mostly just set up on one per category and never changed. I find Civ5's additive policies better if you're not going to do a *proper* trade-offs system.

Anyway, I suspect that anyone disappointed by Civ V shouldn't buy this release day, but wait for the user reviews a few weeks after it comes out, and sufficient people have had the chance to play a few games to completion.

Truth. It's "Civ 5.4: Now in Space!", so plan your purchasing accordingly. I'm getting it release day or thereabouts.
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Re: Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Jun 16, 2014 1:28 am UTC

Release date is Dec 31 2014.

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Re: Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth

Postby ArgonV » Wed Jul 16, 2014 10:59 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Release date is Dec 31 2014.


Are you sure? Here they mention October 24th.

So do you guys think most faction leaders will follow a set ideology, like always picking Supremacy?

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Re: Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth

Postby clockworkmonk » Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:45 pm UTC

The firaxis site says Wed Dec 31, 2014,
while the Civilization site says OCTOBER 24, 2014.


So, I dunno?

Edit: steam also says October 24th, as do most other sources, so it probably is the 24th of October.
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Re: Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth

Postby Diadem » Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:58 pm UTC

December 31st is a very weird release date. Why would you release just after Christmas? The only reason to do that is if you were desperately trying to release just before Christmas, but failed the deadline. This far in advance that reason can not apply. So it sounds very much like a placeholder date.
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Re: Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth

Postby rmsgrey » Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:53 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:December 31st is a very weird release date. Why would you release just after Christmas? The only reason to do that is if you were desperately trying to release just before Christmas, but failed the deadline. This far in advance that reason can not apply. So it sounds very much like a placeholder date.


Or if you want to catch the kids with bulging wallets from indulgent relatives and the gift-returned-for-store-credit lot...

Though, yeah, placeholder date is much more plausible.

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Re: Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth

Postby setzer777 » Wed Jul 16, 2014 3:17 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:
DaBigCheez wrote:And Alpha Centauri was just a Civ 2 reskin with a couple unit-customization features.
It bothers me whenever someone brings up the unit customization (you almost never used anything less than the best tech available, so there were basically a handful of good archetypes that were optimal, and then lots of opportunities to make mistakes) instead of, like, the social engineering or the terraforming.

Anyway, I suspect that anyone disappointed by Civ V shouldn't buy this release day, but wait for the user reviews a few weeks after it comes out, and sufficient people have had the chance to play a few games to completion.


I've barely played the expansion, but didn't it add more meaningful customization choices?

I need to play Alpha Centauri again; it's been too long. I do kind of dread the late game though, I get tired of micromanaging 20+ cities every turn, but I don't trust the AI to not fuck it up.

Edit: Also, since I know you're big on optimization, is it more efficient to give all battle units max tech weapons and armor, or have dedicated attackers and defenders for your stacks?
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Re: Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:29 am UTC

There is a Civ IV mod that turns it into Alpha Centauri...

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Re: Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth

Postby ArgonV » Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:19 pm UTC

One thing that did strike me in my dealings with rivals on the planet was how the diplomacy had a new features called "Favors." Your relations with other factions or civs in other Firaxis games has always been a pretty simplistic affair. You'll trade or not, and maybe go to war over religions or something. But there was always more meaning attached to your dealings than the system could model. "When I was playing I would go and make lopsided deals and I would impart all these meanings like, 'I asked you for gold to help me out and you didn't say yes, so now I clearly have to go to war with you and conquer you for being petulant.'" Anton Strenger said, mirroring how I would put all kinds of meaning in deal that was never codified. "What happens in a lopsided deal? What's really going on? Do they owe me a favor now? Do they think I'm indebted to them?"

"In a nutshell, a favor is the promise to repay for things that you do good for them," McDonough said. When you trade something to a faction, and they have nothing to give you in return, they may offer you a unit labeled as a favor. You can accumulate multiple favors from a faction, and trade them back to them for something later down the line like resources, money, science or even declaring war on a third party.


Mentioned here. This sounds very useful. I'm just wondering how this will work for human players, are you forced to give in when the AI calls in a favor?

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Re: Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth

Postby KingTip » Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:50 am UTC

I've been following this game since announcement... It looks so freaking awesome.
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Re: Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:11 am UTC

Firaxis/Microprose loves to remake their old games. And in a list that includes XCOM and Darklands and MoO and MoM and Railroad Tycoon, Alpha Centauri was the very best. So... yeah.

Only way it could be better is if they remade Darklands as well.

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Re: Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth

Postby bigglesworth » Tue Aug 12, 2014 9:46 am UTC

Sid Meier's Railroads was more fun than I thought it would be. I'm still waiting for a really good, big railway building game though. I'm not so interested in an economic simulator as I am by a civic engineering simulator.
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Re: Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth

Postby freezeblade » Wed Aug 13, 2014 7:47 pm UTC

bigglesworth wrote:I'm not so interested in an economic simulator as I am by a civic engineering simulator.

I second this, but unfortunatly I believe us to be in the minority here.
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Re: Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Aug 15, 2014 3:07 pm UTC

So... Sandbox mode?

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Re: Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth

Postby bigglesworth » Fri Aug 15, 2014 3:11 pm UTC

I do do that. But it sometimes feels like cheating.

I'd be happy if I was working to a budget. Even if that budget was based on a random or otherwise business cycle.

I want to be told to build a line for a new coal mine and then choose the best route and how to build it - not decide whether it's more profitable to ship apples or peaches to a certain town.
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Re: Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Aug 15, 2014 3:33 pm UTC

In railroad tycoon II, you were given missions like "make 50 tons of steel in a year". You needed to turn a profit to buy the trains, but still.

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Re: Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth

Postby Yakk » Fri Aug 15, 2014 3:36 pm UTC

bigglesworth wrote:Warfare in Civ IV was boring - and weird, with cannons being used to charge in first before the cavalry walked in at the end.

Ya, I hacked up flanking and bombardment a bunch in my Civ IV DLL.

Bombardment was capped much, much lower (like 10%-20% damage), and Bombardment units had flanking and low base attack (so they often managed to retreat).

I way upped the flanking on cavalry, and also twerked the upgrades -- modern "cavalry" could hit 95% flanking. I also twerked archers -- I forgot how, honestly.

Afterwards, the ideal route was to (A) bombard the enemy to lose 10%-20% of their HP, (B) send cavalry and archers in to weaken the toughest enemy units (they would lose their fights, but most/many would survive), then (C) send in ground-pounders to finish off the now wounded foes.

You could do without any of the above 4 unit types, it was just far less efficient.

I also went through the units, and rebuilt them using some equations so that there where fewer "building this unit is a waste, because it is trivial to dominate". New units would break the old paradigms of war (the rock-paper-scissors), as well as some tactical phase shifts (the modern era has no melee units! And it doesn't need them.)

I was working on counter-bombardment, flank-based fleeing, "flanking" that targeted enemy weak units (like artillery), and the like.
I wasn't a fan of the precise chop/slavery/turn counting build orders that were optimal either.
I also twerked the economics of slavery and chopping wood -- both where too effective in raw Civ4.

The funnest part of my changes, however, was my animals and barbarians. Animals where much more common and nastier, which made exploration (on land) very dangerous. This kept people from exploring the entire continent in the ancient era (you had to wait for the AI to claim territory).

Barbarians where also made a touch more nasty, again to keep "free land" from being free. An enemy civilization nearby would mean barbarians where less likely to come from that direction. You built an army not to conquer, but to keep your lands safe -- after you had security, you had this big army and nothing to do with it but conquer!

... in short, the most awesome part of Civ4 was access to the gameplay DLL.
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Re: Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth

Postby ArgonV » Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:51 pm UTC

So here's the breakdown for the seeded start (you get to pick one of each)

Sponsor Abilities
    ARC: +25% speed on cover ops, plus 25% bonus on intrigue generated
    Pan Asian Cooperative: +10% production towards Wonders, +25% worker speed
    Franco-Iberia: 1 free tech per 10 virtues developed
    Slavic Federation: +20% duration on satellites. First satellite gives a free tech
    Polystralia: Cities able to Send Trade routes may support one more Trade Route than normal
    Kavithan Protectorate: Outposts develop into cities 50% faster
    Brasilia: Units have +10% combat strength in melee combat
    African Union: +10% Food in Cities when healthy

Colonists
    Scientists: +2 science in every city
    Refugees: +2 food in every city
    Aristocrats: +3 energy and +1 health in every city
    Engineers: +2 production in every city
    Artists: +2 culture and +1 health in every city

Spacecraft
    Continental Surveyor: Reveals coasts on map
    Retrograde Thrusters: Wider area for choosing where to land first city
    Tectonic Scanner: No tech needed to see petroleum, geothermal and titanium resources
    Fusion Reactor: Begin with 100 energy
    Lifeform Sensor: Reveal Alien Nests on map

Cargo
    Hydroponics: Begin with one extra population in your first city
    Laboratory: Begin with pioneering technology (allows production of colonists)
    Raw Materials: Begin with clinic building in your first city (gives Science and Health)
    Weapon Arsenal: Begin with soldier unit
    Machinery: Begin with worker unit

I'm thinking Franco-Iberia with Artists, tectonic scanner and machinery for my first game

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CorruptUser
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Re: Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:42 am UTC

No! Pan-Asian, Engineers, Retrograde Thrusters, Machinery. Always go heavy production...

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ArgonV
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Re: Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth

Postby ArgonV » Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:40 pm UTC

I'll probably do that the second time. First time I just want to get a feel for the game on easy, which will probably reduce virtue culture costs ;)

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CorruptUser
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Re: Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Sep 03, 2014 3:59 am UTC

...pre-purchased. All I get for pre-purchasing is a couple extra maps, but whatever.

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ArgonV
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Re: Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth

Postby ArgonV » Wed Sep 03, 2014 11:46 am UTC

I'm not sure if they're maps or map scripts, but we shall see. I'm thinking pre-purchasing as well, since it's 25% cheaper to get a boxed copy (including shipping) than a digital copy on Steam

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CorruptUser
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Re: Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Sep 03, 2014 12:18 pm UTC

Steam was $50. Did I overpay?

Also I never quite understood why Steam is the same price as the box. I mean, they don't have to manufacture the boxes and dvds, they don't have to worry about making more boxes than people will buy. And they can offer random deals to get the people who weren't going to buy in the first place. Plus, kiiinda hard to pirate when it requires steam. Valve is raking in the money if you ask me. What, is Half-Life 3 going to be inside a VR system?

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Diadem
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Re: Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth

Postby Diadem » Wed Sep 03, 2014 12:23 pm UTC

Game stores force this. They require that online sales are at least as expensive as offline sales, or they refuse to sell the game.
It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? I have an independent mind, you are an eccentric, he is round the twist
- Bernard Woolley in Yes, Prime Minister


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