Fallout 4

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HES
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Re: Fallout 4

Postby HES » Mon Nov 28, 2016 5:41 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:If you side with the BoS, do you build settlements like the Minutemen do in order for them to "volunteer" food?
Short answer no. Settlement alignment and building is actually largely independent of which faction you join*, it's just the minutemen quests steer you towards gaining and developing settlements. The BoS will give out radiant quests to "acquire" food from a settlement, which you may or may not control, but I don't think you can set up farms to willingly support them.

*In my current playthrough I have a network of settlements across two maps, and Preston is still in the museum.
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Re: Fallout 4

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Nov 28, 2016 9:08 pm UTC

The annoying thing about settlement-related quests is that after you help people in a settlement, I think they still always say something about joining the Minutemen, regardless of whether you've even heard of the Minutemen yet. (I started nearest Warwick Homestead on my recent shipwreck-survivor playthrough. That mod fortunately has a settings holotape that lets you add levels, because that is the wrong corner of the map to be in at level 1.)

Incidentally, in response to my own question about mods, here's my current load order, minus DLC files and compatibility patches / other minor additional files:
Spoiler:
TrueStormsFO4.esm
ArmorKeywords.esm
SpringCleaning.esm
SettlementKeywords.esm
Homemaker.esm
PipBoyCustomisationFramework.esm
Thematic and Practical.esp
Unofficial Fallout 4 Patch.esp
Weapons of Fate.esp
AkaSinger.esp
AkaSingersWardrobe.esp
dD-Enhanced Blood Basic.esp
Armorsmith Extended.esp
Crafting Workbench.esp
PipBoyShadows.esp
EnclaveX02.esp
PBCF_Seed.esp
NanoSuit.esp
a89_pipboycustom.esp
Live Dismemberment
BrighterSettlementLights.esp
AES_Renovated Furniture.esp
Wall Oil Lamps.esp
Rebuilt_SeriesPrewarHouses.esp
CovenantUnowned.esp
WET.esp
SettlementAttacksBeyond.esp
Conquest.esp
BetterShackBridges.esp
BasementLiving.esp
SSEX.esp
ValdacilsItemSorting-00-ValsPicks-DLCVersion-VanillaWeight.esp
Buildable_PAFrames.esp
AutomathroneAddons.esp
EveryonesBestFriend.esp
WestTekTacticalOptics.esp
SettlementAttacksBeyondFH.esp
mso_sms.esp
AdvBubbleTurretSet.esp
SkjAlert_All_DLC.esp
DV-Durable Vertibirds.esp
ScrapDeadThings.esp
QuickTrade.esp
FO4Hotkeys.esp
OutfitSwitcher.esp
PBCF_NanoSuit.esp
More Where That Came From Diamond City.esp
More Where That Came From - Classic.esp
SMC.esp
Journey.esp
RuleBreaker.esp
Quick Save.esp
Eli_Immersive Coffee Mod.esp
Crossbow.esp
MakeYourOwnSynths.esp
ClassicSniper.esp
ClassicSniperSounds.esp
PortableRecycler.esp
Vertidrones.esp
CompRedo.esp
LoweredJetpakAPDrain.esp
Give Me That Bottle.esp
SurvivalSleepAnywhere.esp
Locky Bastard.esp
CovenantTurrets.esp
ShadowedSynthArmor.esp
SettlersRename.esp
BetterSettlers.esp
ClearWater.esp
SMH.esp
BetterJunkFences.esp
LongerPowerLines3x.esp
SRM.esp
SRM_Corpse6.esp
UniquePlayer.esp
UniqueFollowers.esp
ellen.esp
SalvageBeacons.esp
Gunsmith Extended.esp
dinoshelf.esp
OSM_AlternateStart_Protocol-InfiniteAnswer.esp


The ones I find most essential for settlement building are Place Everywhere (which doesn't have an esp it seems), Homemaker, SSEX, Better Junk Fences (which allows them to snap together), Longer Power Lines, and Spring Cleaning. The armor and weapon crafting mods are nice, but less essential if you have Contraptions Workshop (especially if you have something like Manufacturing Extended).

Salvage Beacons is in my opinion a must-have if you want to play in Survival difficulty but still collect enough junk to build settlements. It allows you to load up any unowned container with whatever you want them to take back to a settlement, and then add a beacon. If you build the included radio in a settlement, salvagers will go from there to the container to the destination settlement, and upon arrival everything will show up in that workshop.

It renders irrelevant the option in Journey to drop off your junk with your own provisioners and have them carry it to a settlement (for a fee), but that mod also allows you to travel between your settlements, which is a nice in-between for Survival mode if you don't want to go full-on "cheat" with fast travel. (After walking enough through the same places, I just installed RuleBreaker to allow me to turn fast travel on and off on demand. I also use RuleBreaker to make it so companions heal automatically, since Dogmeat kept getting himself stuck in doors and needed a Stimpak every time I entered or exited a building.)

I haven't used Conquest much, but it allows you to place campsites for short-term stays and change them into full (albeit occasionally buggy) settlements if you want to, which can be handy for places that don't have nearby settlements, especially as it works to add fast-travelable points for Journey.

Durable Vertibirds is a nice difficulty add-on if you go against the Brotherhood, but might be a bit easy-mode if you side with them.

With so many mods, and being a Bethesda game in the first place, it is of course not a very stable game, so Survival Quick Save is pretty much a necessity if you're playing survival and don't want to sleep every 10 minutes. (I appreciate the intent of adding difficulty and investment by making you lose more if you get killed by a fight you should have avoided, but it's not worth the cost of also losing more if your game crashes for absolutely no reason.)
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Re: Gaming fleeting thoughts

Postby Thesh » Tue Dec 27, 2016 6:52 am UTC

I wish Fallout 4 had better dialogue options, such as "Why the fuck are you moving to Sanctuary? This has got to be the most horribly indefensible position in the Commonwealth; as long as your attackers aren't stupid enough to attack solely from the bridge, you are pretty much fucked since they can half surround you while holding high ground. You would need to build massive walls surrounding the entire complex, and you just don't have the resources at this time, nor do you have the engineering skills necessary to build a wall across an uneven surface."
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Re: Gaming fleeting thoughts

Postby Magnanimous » Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:37 pm UTC

I'm sure you could find a very specific mod for that.

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Re: Gaming fleeting thoughts

Postby Thesh » Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:40 pm UTC

Honestly, I should just build my own system from the ground up. Instead of settlements, it will be communities. They will be aligned with the minutemen, but otherwise independent from settlements as a concept. Minimum 10 unnamed settlers to found the community, at which point they become named residents. They are all level 1 with randomly distributed SPECIAL attributes. You pretty much need a minimum of ten people to survive, and that involves maintenance, security, scavenging, trading, and farming. Anyone can be permanently killed in an attack, or while on patrol, in a caravan, or scavenging (you better make sure you give them a proper burial!).

Everything requires resources. Farming requires fertilizer and fresh water, while generators require a fuel supply and guards (and armed residents) and turrets require ammunition, which can all be predictably scavenged/crafted/traded with enough surplus of other resources. And, of course, everyone needs food. And it isn't easy for one person to feed ten others. But with 5 farmers, and some scavenging and trade you can support ten people.

Setting up trade routes allows you to trade surplus resources in respective communities, but these need to be protected. That protection requires ammunition, and your people will get killed and lose gear, which needs replacing over time. Not to mention that they need to eat. Anything your community sells to another community is done so at over 100% of value (subsequently, they lose out on the trade by an inverse amount). Surpluses of value (caps) are what keep your citizens happy. You can tax them, which makes them less happy (and hurts local business if you don't reinvest!). Supplies that have to be purchased from traders are always purchased at a loss to you.

Larger communities can build chemistry stations to make fuel from crops, or manufacture weapons and equipment with the quality of gear depending on the SPECIAL stats and level of the resident working it. Advanced fabrication facilities, requiring multiple positions including scientist, engineer, and fabrication technician can produce power armor parts and high tech (and low tech) weapons, with in-house designs reserved exclusively for members of the minutemen, which provide free security by recruiting members but requires sacrificing a high level character with good combat-related stats.

All mechanical equipment must be maintained, so the larger the community, the larger the maintenance staff, and you must make sure you plan out your sewage and irrigation system. You are going to need a lot of water, and a lot of fertilizer. All communities must be built on a water source. Staff must work in shifts, with guards and maintenance at work at all times. Gear can be assigned to particular postings, rather than individual settlers. So guards can be assigned power armor, and they will take it off and exchange it at shift change. Shifts can be 2x12, 3x8, or 4x6 hours; there is a production penalty for a 2x12, and a production bonus for a 4x6, where production bonus means higher output for mechanical equipment from maintenance workers, and SPECIAL bonuses for guards.

All the productivity of farming, trading, scavenging, as well as survival are based on SPECIAL stats and character levels. If they die, they are dead for good, and you have to build back up. Max number of Residents is either 5x Player Charisma (permanent only) or 10x Mayor Charisma (with equipped gear), whichever is greater. Large communities will have to be sectioned into districts to simplify resident management. If a Mayor is installed, the Mayor's Charisma and Luck affect the productivity of the entire community. On the other hand, for each of the Mayor's SPECIAL stats other than Charisma and Luck, each Resident receives +1 for each level above 7, or -1 for each level below 4.

At no point is your community safe from attack. If at any point it is taken over, many residents will be killed, while others will flee. If it is taken over, you will need to go in and clear it out. The longer you take to respond, the more they will fuck your shit up with looting and redecoration. Fleeing residents will relocate to other communities, or wander the wastelands as a group if there is no room, until their community is cleared with security restored to somewhat higher than when they were kicked out.

Plus, a "task board" system where job assignments, including specific assignments and routes, as well as uniforms/gear can be handed out to residents, by name, without having to walk up to each individual item.

I won't do this, but I wish I would.
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Re: Gaming fleeting thoughts

Postby Felstaff » Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:32 pm UTC

You've essentially described the camara ab extra version of Fallout Shelter.
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Re: Gaming fleeting thoughts

Postby Koa » Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:18 am UTC

Thesh wrote:I won't do this, but I wish I would.


I know a bit about how gamebryo works, or enough to know that what you're describing is such a super mega mod that it might well dwarf the scope of the game its modding. Felstaff's comment is very relevant however I figured I would go into the details of how this would (fail to) be applied to Fallout 4.

Spoiler:
Thesh wrote:Anyone can be permanently killed in an attack, or while on patrol, in a caravan, or scavenging (you better make sure you give them a proper burial!).


This is a massive problem because there's not much of what I'll call OOC (out of cell) aggregations or abstractions to calculate combat that you aren't there to witness. You can make it just a flat percentage chance of death but given all the other suggestions about combat and death I don't think you would find it satisfying.

You might have noticed how sometimes NPCs who are enemies to each other don't notice that they should yet be fighting, and then they draw their weapons and get to action after a momentary staredown. The game tries to obfuscate it as much as possible by loading more grid cells or by making sure that enemies aren't close to the entrance of cells, but basically AI routines aren't being run in cells that you aren't in. That's why turrets contribute to a defense rating which acts to repel attacks. When you're not in a settlement, turret placement makes no difference because the attacks are abstracted into a very simple calculation. This is so that when you fight that seabeast over yonder it isn't slideshow frames per second with your machine calculating off-screen terrain/lineofsight/AI etc. Even if the game were 2D it would be a large strain on modern systems to have moderately decent abstracted combat happening everywhere all the time.

Thesh wrote:Everything requires resources.

Doable with special scripted bins for the extra resources I imagine. Count the required fuel for the generators and remove fuel from the bins on a timed loop. Add fuel to the bins from worked stations on a timed loop. I'm not sure about UI support but I should also note that developing all the supporting windows and menus for all these things is deceptively time consuming.

Thesh wrote:Setting up trade routes allows you to trade surplus resources in respective communities, but these need to be protected. That protection requires ammunition, and your people will get killed and lose gear, which needs replacing over time. Not to mention that they need to eat. Anything your community sells to another community is done so at over 100% of value (subsequently, they lose out on the trade by an inverse amount). Surpluses of value (caps) are what keep your citizens happy. You can tax them, which makes them less happy (and hurts local business if you don't reinvest!). Supplies that have to be purchased from traders are always purchased at a loss to you.


Excessively complex. Surplus trading between settlements isn't going to work out so well with all this complexity to required resources. Actual trade lines with NPCs links back into the OOC problem. Autopurchasing supplies and taxes... Ignoring that a tax system could be a large mod upon itself it seems like settlements could fail, in which case you would need to have some sort of failure state which also doesn't exist. With how all of these features seem to link into one another, diagnosing a problem with a settlement would probably be very difficult. Liberal application of Murphy's law. Your chemist dies and you don't notice, no fuel so the generators go down, and then gradually everyone in the settlement dies. Then this settlement was a supplier of a resource which starts to kill another settlement and so on. What a nightmare. This needs a lot of interface QA for what would be a gigantic interface overhaul.

Thesh wrote:Advanced fabrication facilities, requiring multiple positions including scientist, engineer, and fabrication technician can produce power armor parts and high tech (and low tech) weapons, with in-house designs reserved exclusively for members of the minutemen, which provide free security by recruiting members but requires sacrificing a high level character with good combat-related stats.

Doable I suppose, but would be a big mod unto itself.

Thesh wrote:All mechanical equipment must be maintained, so the larger the community, the larger the maintenance staff, and you must make sure you plan out your sewage and irrigation system. You are going to need a lot of water, and a lot of fertilizer. All communities must be built on a water source. Staff must work in shifts, with guards and maintenance at work at all times. Gear can be assigned to particular postings, rather than individual settlers. So guards can be assigned power armor, and they will take it off and exchange it at shift change. Shifts can be 2x12, 3x8, or 4x6 hours; there is a production penalty for a 2x12, and a production bonus for a 4x6, where production bonus means higher output for mechanical equipment from maintenance workers, and SPECIAL bonuses for guards.


I almost feel like I am being generous when I say that I don't think this is anywhere near within the scope of feasibility. Sewage and irrigation system too?

Thesh wrote:Large communities will have to be sectioned into districts to simplify resident management.

Ignoring the massive amount of work to predefine the districts for the hundredish settlements, I don't think it's technically possible. If they're not predefined then it's probably even less possible. It's like adding a tenth floor and an elevator to a three story building with foundation damage.

Thesh wrote:At no point is your community safe from attack. If at any point it is taken over, many residents will be killed, while others will flee. If it is taken over, you will need to go in and clear it out. The longer you take to respond, the more they will fuck your shit up with looting and redecoration. Fleeing residents will relocate to other communities, or wander the wastelands as a group if there is no room, until their community is cleared with security restored to somewhat higher than when they were kicked out.


OOC problem big time here. Spending computational cycles for fleeing NPCs still existing and moving around in the world, NPCs who are essentially in limbo and wanting to go back to their original settlement... Sounds like an easy way to clog up and crash the game given how this would interact with all of the other things. And to what benefit?


Final rating of this mod: fever dream.

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Re: Gaming fleeting thoughts

Postby Thesh » Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:50 am UTC

Oh, I know very well that it would be a massive undertaking that one person could never complete alone. Plus, I couldn't do any of the art.

Spoiler:
And yeah, when you are not around pretty much everything would have to be based around probabilities, which I don't personally have a problem with. Scavenging and trade I would do as straight-up formulas (I came up with some that prioritize nicely based on current supply and consumption), and surplus is actually not *that* complex. Surpluses in settlements go into the workbench; in this case, that would first get distributed to other communities based on need, and then anything that no one needs is translated into caps for the city, which they can trade for other stuff or have a surplus of. I'm not familiar enough with the engines (or Bethesda's modifications) to know exactly what everything would entail, but a lot of it would go through the Ceation Kit+Papyrus. You can easily come up with simple solutions to a lot of things; sewage could just be an outhouse/pump/compost system, which is just a couple connecting pieces, and irrigation is pipes, which can also piggy back off of the electric wire system.

Everything dealing with the productivity, levels, SPECIAL stats, etc. is just formulas; that's simple scripting. A lot of the stuff, changing gear, shift changes, should be relatively simple to script as well (waypoints and actions are basic game scripting facilities). For districts, you can just have separately loaded sections, so it's as if they are each independent settlements that happen to share resources.

A lot of it can piggy back off of existing facilities, but there is a performance limit for a lot of stuff and I don't have a problem doing it cheaply. Honestly, the game needs a better construction system more than anything right now.
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Re: Gaming fleeting thoughts

Postby rmsgrey » Sat Dec 31, 2016 3:02 am UTC

Sounds like you're looking for Dwarf Fortress with a modern 3D interface.

There are reasons why Dwarf Fortress is ASCII characters and impenetrable menus, and not all of them are The Toady One's personal preferences...

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Re: Gaming fleeting thoughts

Postby Sableagle » Sat Dec 31, 2016 9:51 am UTC

You just need a network of slaved computers running SimCity2000 and The Sims and Age of Conquerors and Quake III Arena and ...
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Re: Gaming fleeting thoughts

Postby Thesh » Sat Dec 31, 2016 6:58 pm UTC

Sableagle wrote:You just need a network of slaved computers running SimCity2000 and The Sims and Age of Conquerors and Quake III Arena and ...


I really don't get why people always have to find a way to shit on an idea by imagining the most extreme interpretation possible; it's not funny, it's not helpful, it's not useful in any possible way imaginable, it's just being a jackass for the sake of being a jackass. I've already explained all the big stuff, so I find it hard to see where your mind is going to come up with that. I mean, we are talking something about a fraction of the complexity of the game itself. Settlements in the game are shit, and it's not because of resource limitations, since the vast majority of everything I described is just a matter of a once-per-day transactions or on-demand calculations when changes occur. 90% of this could be easily implemented as settlement mods, given an API that exposes the necessary functionality.
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Re: Gaming fleeting thoughts

Postby Koa » Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:27 am UTC

The settlements are pretty shit, everyone can see it. So I wouldn't underestimate the modding community's imagination and zeal to add complexity to it. Saying that you would or could do these things kind of insults the modding community, and it's a very easy sort of mistake to make.

What is possible in computer science and what is possible in practice are going to be different things sometimes, especially with modding (not always because of the API either). What you're describing is an incredibly daunting project that if mostly successful on delivering would be worthy of a moddb award nomination and real estate on your resume. Actually, Bethesda would probably hire you if you could somehow demonstrate it. Imagine how much that DLC would be worth.

It's not the most original idea to add realistic management and logistic systems to settlements, but the devil is in the details. We've all imagined the everything game at one point or another. There are some similarities.

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Re: Gaming fleeting thoughts

Postby Thesh » Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:16 pm UTC

Koa wrote:Saying that you would or could do these things kind of insults the modding community, and it's a very easy sort of mistake to make.


At first I thought you were interested in constructive criticism, and thus my clarification on a few points, but now I know you are just against the suggestion that anyone outside the modding community would think about mods. Insulting? Fuck that shit. I'll talk about whatever the fuck I want, whenever the fuck I want. I'm a programmer, not a moron, and your assumption hat I have put no thought into things like whether or not it could be implemented is insulting to me. Honestly, the continued insistence that it is some masterfully complex thing, and not just something that would take more effort than it's worth for free, tells me that you probably don't know what you are talking about in the first place.

Koa wrote:It's not the most original idea to add realistic management and logistic systems to settlements, but the devil is in the details. We've all imagined the everything game at one point or another. There are some similarities.


No one claimed it was. And yeah, I'm done with this conversation, I'm just blocking assholes who decide they have to be hostile to anyone if they have a fleeting thought in a fleeting thoughts thread. Why even waste your time posting on a forum if you are against even the concept of someone having an idea in the first place?
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Re: Gaming fleeting thoughts

Postby Koa » Thu Jan 05, 2017 4:45 am UTC

Well I'm still fond of you mate. It was a fine idea but I just found it more interesting to think about how it wouldn't work rather than how it would, since the latter is a nonstarter. Source code and infinite time with an eye on performance, it surely could run on modern machines. It's complex in the practical sense, unexpected necessary compromises, rather than the theoretical.

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Re: Gaming fleeting thoughts

Postby Thesh » Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:46 am UTC

Look, if you want to pick a component, we can discuss it. Just don't criticize me for having ideas in the first place. I could probably explain the entire algorithm for production/trade if I wanted.
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Re: Gaming fleeting thoughts

Postby Koa » Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:35 am UTC

You leave a settlement cell as soon as its hit from a simulated attack, and ten settlers instantly die. You fast travel back to fix the damages, and the unlucky ten drop dead where they stand -- like they've just been pulled from the Matrix. Working as intended or no?

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Re: Gaming fleeting thoughts

Postby Thesh » Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:58 am UTC

It wouldn't work like that in the first place. It would alert you that an attack is underway, give you a reasonable amount of time to respond, e.g. one in-game day, and then if you don't show up, it runs the simulation and it removes those Residents from the game. If you do show up, then there is no simulation, just an attack.
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Re: Gaming fleeting thoughts

Postby Koa » Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:11 am UTC

I guess there isn't a graveyard feature anymore then. Here you go, someone trying and struggling to create a system that does what you just said, which is a merely a subsystem of the many larger systems that you mentioned.

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Re: Gaming fleeting thoughts

Postby Thesh » Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:24 am UTC

Koa wrote:I guess there isn't a graveyard feature anymore then. Here you go, someone trying and struggling to create a system that does what you just said, which is a merely a subsystem of the many larger systems that you mentioned.


A graveyard wouldn't actually require a body or animation. And as for that mod, they are trying to move the existing spawn points for settlements, but apparently there are attacks that don't obey spawn points; that's not relevant. I wouldn't be using their system at all, and scripting the spawning of enemies is trivial. Just apply this:

http://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/11317/

From there, just script your own attack system yourself.
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Re: Gaming fleeting thoughts

Postby Koa » Thu Jan 05, 2017 9:16 am UTC

"Just script" becomes this infinitely regressive thing, and I already admitted it was valid in a theoretical sense, but there are going to be so many issues and so much raw work in practice. You have to go down some layers before you see mods trying to accomplish certain things. That's the only point I'm going to be able to make when examining the components since I've only made a few mods myself. Something as simple as NSA has several pages of comments from the author talking about quirks and complications, so I guess we're speaking past each other over the framing of the idea. And I guess I would defend you in that it's not strictly a technology issue though it becomes one in the sense that it's a mod for an archaic patchwork engine. Modding large mechanics into gamebryo is a different world, it's like 90% bug fixing and finger crossing since you're working with a subpar and undocumented library.

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Re: Gaming fleeting thoughts

Postby Sableagle » Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:26 pm UTC

Koa wrote:You leave a settlement cell as soon as its hit from a simulated attack, and ten settlers instantly die. You fast travel back to fix the damages, and the unlucky ten drop dead where they stand -- like they've just been pulled from the Matrix. Working as intended or no?

I've seen something like this happen in L4D2 sometimes when things have been a bit intense and I've fired and turned away, shot at some other things and then turned back to see the zombie I just killed appear, get hit and fall down. The computer had stopped drawing it once I turned away and therefore hadn't been animating it, so when I turned back the animation started from frame 0.

Age of Conquerors never had that problem but is associated with memories of building siege engine workshops just to make catapults to AoE the direct route between my own market and an ally's until his wall collapsed from collateral damage, designating my own wall there before he could try to replace his, continuing until my "planned wall" was 4 spaces long and then putting a gate there instead because allies tended to wall themselves off from me, diverting my trade carts onto less efficient routes (like Calais to Paris via Prague in 1916 kind of "less efficient").
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Re: Gaming fleeting thoughts

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Jan 05, 2017 9:59 pm UTC

Obviously a lot of Thesh's ideas are impractical, but a lot of the naysaying also seems pretty ignorant of how the game already works or of what Thesh meant.
Koa wrote:
Thesh wrote:Anyone can be permanently killed in an attack, or while on patrol, in a caravan, or scavenging (you better make sure you give them a proper burial!).


This is a massive problem because there's not much of what I'll call OOC (out of cell) aggregations or abstractions to calculate combat that you aren't there to witness. You can make it just a flat percentage chance of death but given all the other suggestions about combat and death I don't think you would find it satisfying.
As Thesh suggests later, a percent chance of death for OOC stuff is probably fine, as long as it accounts for relative level and arms and armor.

Thesh wrote:Everything requires resources.

Doable with special scripted bins for the extra resources I imagine. Count the required fuel for the generators and remove fuel from the bins on a timed loop. Add fuel to the bins from worked stations on a timed loop. I'm not sure about UI support but I should also note that developing all the supporting windows and menus for all these things is deceptively time consuming.
Why is additional UI support needed? "Just" add those things to the timed loop that already transfers food and water from one settlement to another. If you want to add a travel delay do whatever the Salvage Beacons mod does to move stuff from a container to the destination workshop.

(Note: I don't know how accessible this and some of the things below are to modders. There are things I've felt like should be straightforward and popular mods, like triggering a regular settlement attack event or seeing the total stats for all your settlements together, whose nonexistence (or at least nonexistence on the Nexus, which for me amounts to the same thing) suggests that either I'm a huge outlier in ever wanting such a thing or that it's actually harder than it should be to accomplish.)

Thesh wrote:Setting up trade routes allows you to trade surplus resources in respective communities, but these need to be protected. That protection requires ammunition, and your people will get killed and lose gear, which needs replacing over time. Not to mention that they need to eat. Anything your community sells to another community is done so at over 100% of value (subsequently, they lose out on the trade by an inverse amount). Surpluses of value (caps) are what keep your citizens happy. You can tax them, which makes them less happy (and hurts local business if you don't reinvest!). Supplies that have to be purchased from traders are always purchased at a loss to you.
Excessively complex. Surplus trading between settlements isn't going to work out so well with all this complexity to required resources. Actual trade lines with NPCs links back into the OOC problem. Autopurchasing supplies and taxes... Ignoring that a tax system could be a large mod upon itself it seems like settlements could fail, in which case you would need to have some sort of failure state which also doesn't exist. With how all of these features seem to link into one another, diagnosing a problem with a settlement would probably be very difficult. Liberal application of Murphy's law. Your chemist dies and you don't notice, no fuel so the generators go down, and then gradually everyone in the settlement dies. Then this settlement was a supplier of a resource which starts to kill another settlement and so on. What a nightmare. This needs a lot of interface QA for what would be a gigantic interface overhaul.
If generators go down, the workshop view from the DATA tab of your Pip-Boy will show insufficient power. Then you go to the settlement and check whether the problem is broken generators (there are already mods to put quest markers on broken settlement objects, if you've got a ton of generators) or insufficient fuel (just look in your workshop inventory).

Obviously no one would opt for this hypothetical mod if they didn't like micromanaging settlements in the first place, so needing to go there to find out the problem wouldn't be an undue burden on those players.

Gear loss and replacement wouldn't even be that much of a problem if settlers and provisioners just took it from workshops automatically. (I've seen videos suggesting this is already the case, at least for weapons, but I haven't paid enough attention to verify it for myself.)

Thesh wrote:Advanced fabrication facilities, requiring multiple positions including scientist, engineer, and fabrication technician can produce power armor parts and high tech (and low tech) weapons, with in-house designs reserved exclusively for members of the minutemen, which provide free security by recruiting members but requires sacrificing a high level character with good combat-related stats.

Doable I suppose, but would be a big mod unto itself.
Contraptions Workshop already has machines to build gear with workshop inventory. It doesn't seem like it'd be too hard to make those into assignable workstations. I'm not sure if all generic NPCs actually have SPECIAL attributes (to check to make sure someone is capable of manning a particular crafting machine), but generating a set of 7 small integers along with all the other stuff that's already assigned to them (such as appearance and gear and possibly even names if you have the right mod) doesn't seem like it would be a particularly performance-hurting addition.

Thesh wrote:All mechanical equipment must be maintained, so the larger the community, the larger the maintenance staff, and you must make sure you plan out your sewage and irrigation system. You are going to need a lot of water, and a lot of fertilizer. All communities must be built on a water source. Staff must work in shifts, with guards and maintenance at work at all times. Gear can be assigned to particular postings, rather than individual settlers. So guards can be assigned power armor, and they will take it off and exchange it at shift change. Shifts can be 2x12, 3x8, or 4x6 hours; there is a production penalty for a 2x12, and a production bonus for a 4x6, where production bonus means higher output for mechanical equipment from maintenance workers, and SPECIAL bonuses for guards.
I almost feel like I am being generous when I say that I don't think this is anywhere near within the scope of feasibility. Sewage and irrigation system too?
Water sources/sinks can only be built in particular places, and crops and toilets only work within a certain distance of water pipes (which would obviously need to be added) the same way other things need to be near power conduits.

Shifts could have a default which is configurable from a terminal the way spotlights, turrets, and other mod-added settlement features are. Make the shifts affect happiness and use the existing relationship between happiness and productivity.

Thesh wrote:Large communities will have to be sectioned into districts to simplify resident management.

Ignoring the massive amount of work to predefine the districts for the hundredish settlements, I don't think it's technically possible. If they're not predefined then it's probably even less possible. It's like adding a tenth floor and an elevator to a three story building with foundation damage.
There are 37 existing settlements, including the 7 added by DLC.

They're already full of world objects which were a hell of a lot harder to choose and place than some lines dividing each one into districts. Vault 88 even already has multiple workshop areas (and NPC behavior in there is currently messed up by the immense size of the place, which could probably be alleviated by first assigning settlers to just one section or another).

Thesh wrote:At no point is your community safe from attack. If at any point it is taken over, many residents will be killed, while others will flee. If it is taken over, you will need to go in and clear it out. The longer you take to respond, the more they will fuck your shit up with looting and redecoration. Fleeing residents will relocate to other communities, or wander the wastelands as a group if there is no room, until their community is cleared with security restored to somewhat higher than when they were kicked out.
OOC problem big time here. Spending computational cycles for fleeing NPCs still existing and moving around in the world, NPCs who are essentially in limbo and wanting to go back to their original settlement... Sounds like an easy way to clog up and crash the game given how this would interact with all of the other things. And to what benefit?
Wandering as a group would be hard to run continuously, but you could have a random encounter with refugee settlers if one of your settlements has been taken over. There are already radiant quests to resettle Institute refugees, so it doesn't seem overwhelming to add your own fleeing settlers to the possible beneficiaries of that quest.
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Re: Fallout 4

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Jun 12, 2017 6:21 am UTC

Been playing with Sim Settlements for FO4. It's fun, if buggy. Damned power industry won't work right (consumes as much power as it produces), and only half your settlements are big enough for everyone to have a home. Smaller settlements just get the Tower of Pain.

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Re: Fallout 4

Postby Magnanimous » Mon Jun 12, 2017 8:26 am UTC

Finally got around to playing FO4, with no mods at first. It's about what I expected in terms of gameplay (and glitches). I like that the main quest was a little experimental, although it seemed to have too many plot holes for me.
Spoiler:
Father doesn't really provide any evidence that he's actually your son, and given that the Institute is established as being shady as fuck I fully expected him to be a synth. There was also a throwaway line about how Father wanted you to be unfrozen as an "experiment", but given that I started my game getting killed by raiders it's a pretty shitty thing to do to your dad.

The whole "needing human DNA uncorrupted by radiation" thing was a little iffy, but I gave it a pass for story purposes.

As for synths running away from the Institute, it seems like a weird AI problem. If you need manual labor then just make non-sentient robots, and if you're experimenting with machine sapience you can do it in a more controlled way than giving them humanoid bodies that can literally run away. I don't know if I just missed something in the worldbuilding, but the whole thing seemed badly planned.

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Re: Fallout 4

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Jun 12, 2017 1:36 pm UTC

MIT CIT is basically a commentary on what happens when you only have the "real" sciences and none of the social sciences. Without any psychologists and so forth, they couldn't understand just why the synths didn't want to be part of the Institute, why they couldn't have any diplomatic outreach with the Commonwealth, and which members were likely to be the moles that led to their downfall.

Interestingly, in Skyrim I could join either the Stormcloaks or Imperials on different playthroughs without any real thought. But in Fallout, it's so bleak that I can't commit myself. The Institute is the only peaceful faction... except that their "science" has done jack shit, they kidnap innocents and turn them into super mutants for absolutely no point (even killing them would be better), and abusing sentient machines just irks me. I want to join the BoS because they are the only ones recreating the US, even if they have to knock some skulls to do so, but the fact that they want to exterminate every last synth no matter how the synths prove themselves, to say nothing of the ghouls, is a bit much. The Railroad are a goodish faction, but they have no vision for the future to protect humanity or rebuild the world. The Minutemen are the good guys, mostly, and unlike the Railroad they actually have a sort of vision to resettle the wastelands, but the problem is they don't have the industrial base nor technology to form a society.

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Re: Fallout 4

Postby Thesh » Mon Jun 12, 2017 4:36 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:The Institute is the only peaceful faction...


Spoiler:
The game started with them murdering your spouse and kidnapping your son, and they send their synths to their surface to hunt down defectors and kill anyone who would oppose them.
Honesty replaced by greed, they gave us the reason to fight and bleed
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Re: Fallout 4

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:20 pm UTC

Thesh wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:The Institute is the only peaceful faction...


Spoiler:
The game started with them murdering your spouse and kidnapping your son, and they send their synths to their surface to hunt down defectors and kill anyone who would oppose them.


Spoiler:
I've killed Kellog so many times now. Yes, they treat wastlanders as less than human, but it's less "I hate those bastard wastelanders" and more "I just don't care about wastelanders".

Which is in some ways worse. One of the reasons I can't support those jerks.

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Re: Fallout 4

Postby Dauric » Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:42 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:The Minutemen are the good guys, mostly, and unlike the Railroad they actually have a sort of vision to resettle the wastelands, but the problem is they don't have the industrial base nor technology to form a society.


That's not really the problem with the Minutemen though. They've got the organization, communication, and infrastructure (both in terms of population and logistics) to create a stable government, even if it's more of a loose alliance of city-states, but then again most civilizations start as such. You're looking at he earliest days of an organized government that arises organically from what amounts to little more than tribes or clans, the technology and industrial base take time that is beyond the scope of the game.

The problem with the Minuteman as a faction is the base-building took the place of any faction storyline. Railroad, Brotherhood and Institute, for all of them being horrible factions in one form or another to join, at least had interesting storylines that in some way explored their horribleness to propel the plot forward through their quests. Minutemen, for being the only faction that didn't have a glaring morality issue, got the short end of the stick as far as an interesting plot (which could have been more interesting than "Why this faction is horrible"), and the "Random Settlement Quest Table" ended up taking the place of a more involved chain of faction quests.
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Re: Fallout 4

Postby Magnanimous » Fri Jun 16, 2017 5:55 am UTC

Started a new character to focus on melee, and it feels somewhat awkward. Apparently you can't cancel attacks partway through by blocking. I wonder if there's a mod for that.

Also Curie is my favorite companion so far. "I believe we are supposed to file a police report, yes? And all the little things go in baggies for evidence."

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Re: Fallout 4

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:52 pm UTC

Magnanimous wrote:Started a new character to focus on melee, and it feels somewhat awkward. Apparently you can't cancel attacks partway through by blocking. I wonder if there's a mod for that.

Also Curie is my favorite companion so far. "I believe we are supposed to file a police report, yes? And all the little things go in baggies for evidence."


I dislike Curie for exactly that reason. The adorable naive French girl gets annoying. The most upsetting thing about Piper is that I once named a character Blue but it doesn't cause her to have a special conversation when you ask her why she calls you Blue. Come on, we got a thousand ways for Codsworth to say our name! I prefer Nick Valentine, so I'm not too upset that
Spoiler:
he's the most involved in the main plot, and 1/4 of Far Harbor is about his backstory.


Also, I got a mod that allows you to have all companions at once. And another mod that prevents them from using up ammo. Had 5-6 companions at once. Gave them all a nuka-grenade. The entire Commonwealth is now a crater.

Playing with Sim Settlements. All I want now from settlements is a way to autoequip armor and weapons you stuff in the workshop, make it work like the shared workshop too. E.g., you stuff the castle workshop full of road leathers, combat and synth armor, and your settlers all start wearing bits and pieces. Ok, all I really want is to stop being pestered by having to defend every single settlement.

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Re: Fallout 4

Postby Dauric » Sun Jun 18, 2017 4:34 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote: Ok, all I really want is to stop being pestered by having to defend every single settlement.


For me it's not just Fallout 4, but this, oh by the divine binary, this!

Defensive plans shouldn't hinge on one (admittedly heroic) character. If a settlement requires the great and mighty Vault Dweller to show up to defend it, it should be under threat by something pretty damn rare, at most a 1% chance per day event, not "Oh me yarm, we're being attacked by a quarter-dozen bandits and a rusty protectitron, we need the Vault Dweller!"

Seriously, if your every-day defensive arrangements hinge on the presence of a single person you're screwed, and you deserve it.
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Re: Fallout 4

Postby Magnanimous » Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:40 pm UTC

I've never actually gone to defend one of my settlements. Mostly because I don't care too much about them, and if anything gets destroyed I can always rebuild.

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Re: Fallout 4

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:32 pm UTC

I got the mod that eliminates the cap on scavenging/farming (i.e., your settlers now continue to scavenge even if there are 100 pieces of junk in the workshop). Part of that mod is the ability to adjust frequency of raids, since having 1000 pure waters in your storage would trigger perma-raids otherwise. I've set raids to off...

Also what I've discovered is that since provisioners are basically immortal unless you personally kill them, there's nothing stopping you from equipping a bunch with miniguns, nuka grenades, sturdy/heavy combat armor, and creating a bunch of lines going through Boston, then laughing as the settlers cleanse the commonwealth far more efficiently than the BoS ever could.

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Re: Fallout 4

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Jul 24, 2017 1:47 pm UTC

Yeah, I"ve never bothered with heavy weapons because I've never had a character in any Fallout game who had enough inventory space to make it worthwhile, so early on I figure out that my provisioners (especially the ones going through Boston proper) should get all of the miniguns and missile launchers I pick up in my travels.

Dauric wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:The Minutemen are the good guys, mostly, and unlike the Railroad they actually have a sort of vision to resettle the wastelands, but the problem is they don't have the industrial base nor technology to form a society.


That's not really the problem with the Minutemen though. They've got the organization, communication, and infrastructure (both in terms of population and logistics) to create a stable government, even if it's more of a loose alliance of city-states, but then again most civilizations start as such. You're looking at he earliest days of an organized government that arises organically from what amounts to little more than tribes or clans, the technology and industrial base take time that is beyond the scope of the game.
And we know that a provisional Commonwealth government was already tried once, so the motivation is there. Without the Institute around to exterminate everyone (and without the Brotherhood trying to take over), I figure another attempt at that once the area is safer and stabler would probably be successful.

Alternatively, of course, you could imagine the military dictatorship route EvilViking13 has done with his settlement builds.
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