Team Fortress 2

Of the Tabletop, and other, lesser varieties.

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Phen
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Re: Team Fortress 2

Postby Phen » Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:38 pm UTC

HATS NAO DAMNIT. I still havn't got a single one. And what's this thing about servers promising hats if you donate to them? Is it some switch they can just throw on the server?
Last edited by Phen on Sun Aug 23, 2009 7:58 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Team Fortress 2

Postby Box Boy » Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:39 pm UTC

Phen wrote:And what's this thing about servers promising hands if you donate to them?

I'm going to assume you meant hats.....
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Re: Team Fortress 2

Postby aaron » Sun Aug 23, 2009 1:05 am UTC

Box Boy wrote:So, when the time comes for the demoman update, what do you think he will get?
I think he might get a molotov cocktail for his melee (basically Jarate but with an exposion and not a damage increase) and dynamite for the pipe bomb launcher (I haven't got anything for the sticky bombs/mines yet)
I don't play the PC version, but I'm still curious.


don't quote me on this but i think valve somewhere said that they will never ever take out a melee swing attack. they will change weapons (sandman, axetinguisher, ubersaw etc) but they won't take out the fact that they can use a melee swing.

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Re: Team Fortress 2

Postby Stucky101 » Sun Aug 23, 2009 3:39 am UTC

Phen wrote:And what's this thing about servers promising hands if you donate to them? Is it some switch they can just throw on the server?

It is possible. You have all the hat models already on your computer and I'm sure it wouldn't take much effort for a server to override the unlock system. As a matter-a-fact I was just playing on a server where you could type "!equip" and then choose which hat you wanted to wear depending on your class; even if the hat wasn't unlocked for you.
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Re: Team Fortress 2

Postby Upsilon » Sun Aug 23, 2009 7:09 am UTC

Manial wrote:
Upsilon wrote:I have one hat, and it's for a class I don't use.
I only have the most boring hat of all: the trophy belt :cry:

Hey, me too.
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Re: Team Fortress 2

Postby Toeofdoom » Sun Aug 23, 2009 2:02 pm UTC

I get the feeling valve have gone in a bad direction in general with TF2 by making things exclusive. One of the basic facts about the original game is that everyone had everything. Nothing differentiated players but skill and the entirely custom avatars and names. Then they've gone and completely trashed that.

I may have said it before, but again: Randomness is the least fair way of doing things without actively trying to be unfair. Waving something they want in a persons face and saying they can't have it is cruel, but saying "You just have to wait your turn, you'll get one too... maybe. Well, if we feel like it!" and then not giving them one is worse. Then finally when they do get it, it's not even worth the wait, because all it is is a fucking hat and everyone else already bloody has one.

It's quite simply a terrible system for the game. Other games work on the system or are even built around similar things, but even there they insist that skill is what truly matters. Some unskilled fool may become rich every now and then, but skill is an undeniable advantage in every area.

tl;dr: TF2 doesn't work as an RPG, stop fucking with it.
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Re: Team Fortress 2

Postby Box Boy » Sun Aug 23, 2009 2:21 pm UTC

Toeofdoom wrote:tl;dr: TF2 doesn't work as an RPG, stop fucking with it.

This time next week, experience points were introduced.
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Re: Team Fortress 2

Postby krazykate » Sun Aug 23, 2009 5:35 pm UTC

Toeofdoom wrote:I get the feeling valve have gone in a bad direction in general with TF2 by making things exclusive. One of the basic facts about the original game is that everyone had everything. Nothing differentiated players but skill and the entirely custom avatars and names. Then they've gone and completely trashed that.

I may have said it before, but again: Randomness is the least fair way of doing things without actively trying to be unfair. Waving something they want in a persons face and saying they can't have it is cruel, but saying "You just have to wait your turn, you'll get one too... maybe. Well, if we feel like it!" and then not giving them one is worse. Then finally when they do get it, it's not even worth the wait, because all it is is a fucking hat and everyone else already bloody has one.

It's quite simply a terrible system for the game. Other games work on the system or are even built around similar things, but even there they insist that skill is what truly matters. Some unskilled fool may become rich every now and then, but skill is an undeniable advantage in every area.

tl;dr: TF2 doesn't work as an RPG, stop fucking with it.


Are you talking about hats? Why do you want them so bad? not giving a kid food is cruel. not giving a kid a goofy looking avatar isn't cruel. The hats were added just because they're funny. if they are this critical to your enjoyment of the game, there are other games that have no luck involved at all, and are not funny.

Also, what do random drops have to do with Role-Playing games?



aaron wrote:don't quote me on this but i think valve somewhere said that they will never ever take out a melee swing attack. they will change weapons (sandman, axetinguisher, ubersaw etc) but they won't take out the fact that they can use a melee swing.


The reasoning behind this is that you always want players to have a way to fight. If a player has run out of ammo, (s)he needs an option that can't run out. The only way you could give the demoman grenades for his melee replacement is if you allowed him to have an infinite supply of them.




Stucky101 wrote:What frightens me about having trading in TF2 is the possibility that in game chat would turn into a gauntlet of WTB's and WTS's like some sort of Guild Wars FPS.


Most servers have rules about spamming, and will probably just boot players that try to advertise hats.
Last edited by krazykate on Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:28 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Team Fortress 2

Postby Jorpho » Sun Aug 23, 2009 8:05 pm UTC

krazykate wrote:Also, what do random drops have to do with Role-Playing games?
Random drops, and grinding forever in a desperate attempt to acquire a random drop, have been an integral part of the RPG experience since Final Fantasy.

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Re: Team Fortress 2

Postby SecondTalon » Sun Aug 23, 2009 8:23 pm UTC

Jorpho wrote:
krazykate wrote:Also, what do random drops have to do with Role-Playing games?
Random drops, and grinding forever in a desperate attempt to acquire a random drop, have been an integral part of the RPG experience since Final Fantasy.
I'm going to say this as calmly as I can.
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Seriously, that's not an integral part of the RPG experience. I wouldn't even go so far as to say it's an integral part of the JRPG experience, though those are the ones most famed for them and most likely to have funky special equipment with a .000001% drop rate on a critter that spawns in a small area .001% of the time. Sure, MMOs often have that sort of shit too, and lots of western RPGs have had something similar in place - level drop rates for certain equipment being set to blah blah blah. But for every RPG that has shit like that, there's an RPG that completely lacks it. A loot is hand placed, or if there are random drops, nothing has a lower than 10% chance of dropping, so if you're really interested in something, you'll likely find it in just a few minutes. Grinding is only an integral part of the MMO and shitty RPGs that don't know how to pad out the time, so they make you grind so that the 5 hour game can be stretched out to 50.

All of this, of course, is completely ignoring that in no way was Final Fantasy the first game to pull that kind of bullshit on the player. .. hell, did Final Fantasy even pull that bullshit? I mean, I remember the crazy monster before Tiamat that had a low spawn rate and would totally kick your ass if you weren't prepared, but I don't recall the monsters dropping items....


Now... hats make you look goofy, right? None of them decrease or increase the size of your head and make it easier/harder for you to be seen should you be ducked behind something, right? None of them reduce the hitbox of your head, and none of them give funky abilities, right?

Weapons still require achievements to unlock, or are those random too?
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Re: Team Fortress 2

Postby krazykate » Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:27 pm UTC

The hats do nothing to the gameplay, and the weapons can be gotten either through achievements or drops.

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Re: Team Fortress 2

Postby Box Boy » Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:25 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote: hell, did Final Fantasy even pull that bullshit? I mean, I remember the crazy monster before Tiamat that had a low spawn rate and would totally kick your ass if you weren't prepared, but I don't recall the monsters dropping items...

In one of the games (12?) the ultimate weapon at less than 1% chance of spawning in a chest that had less than a 1% chance of spawning. And that chest wouldn't appear if you opened certain chests at the begining of the game, even though you could only get it towards the end.
In FF11 the ultimate weapons level up method is so convulted and takes so much grinding (more than a few months) that there are at least a dozen guides to do it and only a few people who have them. The game has been out for more than five years if I can remember right.

(sorry if any of this is wrong, I'm saying what a friend told me when I said something similar to what you said)
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Re: Team Fortress 2

Postby Jorpho » Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:33 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:But for every RPG that has shit like that, there's an RPG that completely lacks it. A loot is hand placed, or if there are random drops, nothing has a lower than 10% chance of dropping
Can you give an example of the latter?

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Re: Team Fortress 2

Postby Torvaun » Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:57 pm UTC

Jorpho wrote:
SexyTalon wrote:But for every RPG that has shit like that, there's an RPG that completely lacks it. A loot is hand placed, or if there are random drops, nothing has a lower than 10% chance of dropping
Can you give an example of the latter?
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Re: Team Fortress 2

Postby SecondTalon » Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:19 am UTC

Box Boy wrote:
SexyTalon wrote: hell, did Final Fantasy even pull that bullshit? I mean, I remember the crazy monster before Tiamat that had a low spawn rate and would totally kick your ass if you weren't prepared, but I don't recall the monsters dropping items...

In one of the games (12?) the ultimate weapon at less than 1% chance of spawning in a chest that had less than a 1% chance of spawning. And that chest wouldn't appear if you opened certain chests at the begining of the game, even though you could only get it towards the end.
In FF11 the ultimate weapons level up method is so convulted and takes so much grinding (more than a few months) that there are at least a dozen guides to do it and only a few people who have them. The game has been out for more than five years if I can remember right.

(sorry if any of this is wrong, I'm saying what a friend told me when I said something similar to what you said)
...

.... I assumed the lack of a number along with the mentioning of Tiamat and the damned bridge with the crazy nuke you from orbit monster with a low spawn rate would make it completely obvious I was talking about the first one and as a result, would not need a number to qualify it.

I see I was completely mistaken.

Jorpho wrote:
SexyTalon wrote:But for every RPG that has shit like that, there's an RPG that completely lacks it. A loot is hand placed, or if there are random drops, nothing has a lower than 10% chance of dropping
Can you give an example of the latter?
Well, Ultima 6, 7 and 7 Part II, for example. Yes, there were random drops, but anything and everything of importance, use, or crazynukeweaponry was hand-placed. Some of it was hidden, but not in a "Kill 10,000 of these and you may actually get one" way, but in a "Let's see if you can notice there's a single pixel missing on this giant wall and double-click on it and see that it opens. Or just walk through what looks like a completely solid wall, run though a giant black void that makes it look like you broke the game, and come out in a little room with a goddamn Lich in it protecting a fireball staff... by wielding it against you. But hey! If you kill him, you get one of the best weapons in the game, right? Right?"

Morrowind. To a far lesser extent, Oblivion.

I don't recall the Gothic series having any sort of low drop hidden fun stuff, but I might be mistaken on that one.

The Witcher also seems to lack such a system.
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Re: Team Fortress 2

Postby Toeofdoom » Mon Aug 24, 2009 5:07 am UTC

Okay, no, not all RPGs use random drops. In the context of an online game like team fortress 2, however, the closest comparison is an MMO or possibly diablo? Finding an MMO that doesn't use random drops for important things is fairly unlikely.* So replace where I said "RPG" with "grindfest MMORPG"?

Hats are not critical to my enjoyment of the game. I enjoyed it far before there were hats. Hats don't give you any gameplay advantage, either. They add a small amount of fun to the game, sure.

At the moment, it's not worth trying to get one, because the return on the time you spend is so ridiculously tiny. I want one, because they're damn cool hats, why wouldn't I want one? I suppose I could pretend I didn't, "screw all you new kids with your hats, I was playing ... blah blah". The fact is there is no real reason why hats should be so restricted, apart from letting the people who do have hats be elitist.

For example, say everyone got one hat free. As soon as they log on after the patch, random hat, chosen out of one of their top few classes. Everyone gets a hat they'll use, variation exists so not everyone gets the same hat. How is this in any way worse?.

I still think they might as well just let anyone use any hat now. As some other person said, a team of camerabearded spies would be awesome.

*EDIT: not impossible, particularly in games that are pvp based.
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Re: Team Fortress 2

Postby krazykate » Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:10 pm UTC

The appeal of the hats is that you don't see them everyday. If hats were commonplace, they wouldn't be half as funny. I think you're missing the fact that there is that there's a lot in between 'want' and 'do not want'. There's also 'meh, kinda cool', or just plain 'meh. We can all agree that hats are funny looking, but they're not really THAT worth our interest. I mean, there are plenty of goofy skins out there that make players look just as funny. Are they really such a big deal that you feel you need to post about it?

elitism isn't a problem either, don't act like it is. Hat owners play on the same servers non-hat owners do.


Halo has a nice system of customization, where you can change the color, size, shape, etc. of certain parts of your character. This means that everyone gets to customize their character, but everyone is still unique. Maybe the same principle can be applied to hats to allow more players to use them.

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Re: Team Fortress 2

Postby Toeofdoom » Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:21 pm UTC

The hats aren't the big deal, it's the terrible game design from a company that should know better. As you clearly see, there are ways to have everyone be unique without a bloody random generation algorithm.

Also I didn't say elitism was a problem, I said it was the only upside to the current system. I suppose rarity makes them slightly funnier, but rarity still doesn't imply that you should have to play for 200 hours or whatever it is to get one. I disagree about it being the appeal of the hats because I do see them every day I play, I just don't use them because I don't have any.
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Re: Team Fortress 2

Postby Okita » Mon Aug 24, 2009 6:34 pm UTC

The weird thing about hats is if I see two heavies and only one of them has a hat, I'm definitely going to try to snipe the hat-wearing one. I don't know why. It's not like the hitbox is any bigger. But inexorably try to snipe the hatted one. Maybe I'm subconsciously jealous.
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Re: Team Fortress 2

Postby thecommabandit » Tue Aug 25, 2009 3:57 pm UTC

I think it may be because it's an unlockable. If it's unlockable, the player must be special to have it, right? If they're special, they're more dangerous.

Complete fridge logic, but we're not talking about deliberate conscious thoughts here.
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Re: Team Fortress 2

Postby guyy » Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:17 pm UTC

Well it's about freakin' time.

Naturally, it's for a class I almost never use, but it's better than nothing. If they ever actually add item trading, I'll trade it for pretty much any other hat...

(The server I'm idling in now has a heavy with the "Jayne Hat" and a spy with the camera beard. Poo.)

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Re: Team Fortress 2

Postby Upsilon » Tue Aug 25, 2009 4:41 pm UTC

Is the box of Dead Ringers on purpose or did you just happen to get them in that order?
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Re: Team Fortress 2

Postby EdgarJPublius » Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:30 am UTC

new blog update people who used an external idling program had all the items they got from it taken away, everyone who didn't got a Halo that can be worn as any class called 'Cheater's Lament: lvl. 1 aura of incorruptibility' which is pretty cool looking, though it is a little visible for Spies.
They've also apparently increased the drop rate on items, but still no item trading system.

I like the people who got hat's illegitimately were punished, and those who didn't rewarded (mostly because I was able to exercise a smug sense of moral superiority when I played this afternoon) but I also think that this sort of thing should have waited until Valve fixes the problem that they created in the first place.

seriously, external idling problems are a symptom of poor design, they should fix the root of the problem before attacking the symptoms.
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Re: Team Fortress 2

Postby aaron » Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:34 am UTC

i'm a dirty idler, and i'm also one of the 4.5% who don't have a hat and i'm proud of it.

at least i have my medal <3

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Re: Team Fortress 2

Postby lu6cifer » Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:42 am UTC

I don't have a hat yet, but I've only just begun playing.
I do have the Heavy's sandwich though...does that actually do anything?
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Re: Team Fortress 2

Postby Upsilon » Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:05 am UTC

If you taunt with it or press the "Fire" button, the Sandvich heals you.
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Re: Team Fortress 2

Postby guyy » Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:22 am UTC

lu6cifer wrote:I do have the Heavy's sandwich though...does that actually do anything?


You can have the Heavy use "Sandvich" instead of his shotgun, which gives him a special "sandwich eating" taunt (by "firing" with the sandwich) that heals him.

Also, I guess there really weren't that many people using the idler...I just played a round of what looked like Team Fortress 2: Afterlife Edition. (And I have a halo too! Hooray for paranoia?)

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Re: Team Fortress 2

Postby LuNatic » Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:00 am UTC

From what I've heard, the 4.5% is of the total amount of steam accounts that have TF2. Of the active playerbase its supposedly ~1/3rd
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Re: Team Fortress 2

Postby EdgarJPublius » Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:09 am UTC

LuNatic wrote:From what I've heard, the 4.5% is of the total amount of steam accounts that have TF2. Of the active playerbase its supposedly ~1/3rd

that seems pretty close to the percentage of people who didn't get halo's on the servers I usually frequent,
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Re: Team Fortress 2

Postby Ryom » Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:35 am UTC

Drunken F00l is the author of the SourceOp plugin, TF2Items.com, as well as the Idler program. He had stated numerous times that if Valve simply asked him he would disable the idler. Valve is well aware of him (in fact contacted him after the fiasco started), but for some reason instead of simply asking him to disable the idler they split the community just about in half with their hamfisted approach.

Not one of their best moments.

I'd put the number of people who were idling at around 1/5 to 1/3 of the current active playerbase. That 4.5% number is BS and Valve knows it, intellectual dishonesty at its finest. And Achievement_Idle servers are springing up from the ashes again. What a mess.

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Re: Team Fortress 2

Postby Technical Ben » Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:34 am UTC

4.5% of the playerbase includes the entire world, plus casual gamers, and "dormant" accounts. 1/3 the player base may work for a TF2 gaming or pro forum/team, but it's hardly a non bias sample base (sorry, this is XKCD after all, we have to do it properly ;) )

I'm all for random drops for game fun or gimmicks that do not effect game play. It would be nice if it was done every round though. So each game, I get a chance to gain/loose a hat. Each person gets a try, and no one is left out for more than a few games. Hats still stay unique, as you do not keep them for very long, and there are still only a few around.

Wepon drops are ok, as you get them quick enough. If they GAVE THE GAME A TUTORIAL OR MANUAL! the weapon drops could be likened to training up to the full game etc.
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Re: Team Fortress 2

Postby guyy » Fri Sep 04, 2009 5:15 am UTC

Ryom wrote:I'd put the number of people who were idling at around 1/5 to 1/3 of the current active playerbase. That 4.5% number is BS and Valve knows it, intellectual dishonesty at its finest. And Achievement_Idle servers are springing up from the ashes again. What a mess.


From this page, about 20% of the people who own TF2 have any spy/sniper achievements at all; some of those top achievements are nearly impossible to not get if you play either of those classes ever, so probably only about 20% of TF2 owners still play it. So if the 4.5 percent is accurate, that's about 1/4th of the players, not 1/20th. So yeah.

But, we don't know whether they already accounted for this; in most servers I've been in, nearly everyone had a halo, a regular hat, or had no halo for some reason (just didn't like it, were playing Spy which can't cloak properly because the enemy can still see the glowing halo, didn't realize you can put the halo on every class at the same time, etc.). No need to jump to conclusions. Anyway, it's not exactly a horrible punishment; if you used the idler, they just took away your idled items and neglected to give you a circular glowstick that helps snipers aim at your head.

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Re: Team Fortress 2

Postby Ryom » Fri Sep 04, 2009 8:41 am UTC

Of course we get awesome clips like this from such messes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sC9JXVw ... r_embedded

Outright calling 1/4 of their player base filthy cheaters was unwarranted and frankly, a lousy thing to do. Very much in poor taste. I just want a 'fro or tyrant's helm, they really should have let users pick at least one hat that they wanted at the start.

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Re: Team Fortress 2

Postby Uber_Apple » Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:46 am UTC

i got a halo yesterday but when i put it on i cant see it. How will i parade my smugness if people can't see my halo ?

yay i can see it now.

it looks awesome - and fitting - for the medic :)
Last edited by Uber_Apple on Fri Sep 04, 2009 7:31 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Phen
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Re: Team Fortress 2

Postby Phen » Fri Sep 04, 2009 3:30 pm UTC

This does feel pretty awesome, yes, for having resisted temptation. Yay halo =D
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Re: Team Fortress 2

Postby MysteryBall » Sat Sep 05, 2009 1:09 pm UTC

Honestly, I deem it common sense that external idle program == cheating the system.

Anyways, never mind the hats or demo update, I wanna see the Engineer update. Favourite class dammit.

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aaron
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Re: Team Fortress 2

Postby aaron » Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:23 pm UTC

how is it cheating the system, you're doing the same thing that people in achievement_idle servers are doing, except it takes less system resources

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Box Boy
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Re: Team Fortress 2

Postby Box Boy » Sat Sep 05, 2009 9:25 pm UTC

Because you're using an external app to change your gameplay experience in a way deemed unsuitable by the games makers?
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headprogrammingczar
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Re: Team Fortress 2

Postby headprogrammingczar » Sat Sep 05, 2009 11:08 pm UTC

I think they are just treating symptoms at this point. The way I see it, idling programs and idle_ maps are functionally indistinguishable. Neither involves a player actually playing the game, and both give out items at the same rate. If they don't want behavior like this (in which there is no clear non-semantic difference between acceptable and unacceptable behavior), they should work out a better item distribution method.
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Ryom
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Re: Team Fortress 2

Postby Ryom » Sun Sep 06, 2009 3:00 am UTC

All the idler did was hook into your existing Steam files as a base to run itself off of. If you don't have a valid Steam account and TF2 installed you can't use the idler. It's basically a mod that doesn't require the launch of the game to work.


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