Starcraft!

Of the Tabletop, and other, lesser varieties.

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Vekter
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Starcraft!

Postby Vekter » Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:49 pm UTC

Since there doesn't seem to be a thread for this yet...

Who here still plays? I used to play, then bought it last week. I found out that being out of practice for 3 years makes you suck. Bad. D:

Anyone willing to give out lessons?
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Re: Starcraft!

Postby EdgarJPublius » Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:03 pm UTC

I mostly play with my brother and friends since it's the best game we've found that plays cross platform (between Macs and PCs)

Going online is suicide though unless you're playing custom games like Turret Defense or The Thing.

I hope Starcraft 2 has the same level of map customization as the first one.
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Re: Starcraft!

Postby Delbin » Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:32 pm UTC

Medal of Honor is another good cross-platform game.

I haven't played it in forever. I played it every day for an entire summer and I just can't bring myself to pick it up again.

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Re: Starcraft!

Postby Prole » Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:46 pm UTC

We still play it all the time in my flat

Protoss rule basically,

Though if you can micro vultures you'll beat most people.
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Re: Starcraft!

Postby Dr Strangelove » Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:45 am UTC

...And you haven't been playing with people who know how to use the different races. Repeat after me: The factions are balanced. BAL-anced.
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Re: Starcraft!

Postby Gelsamel » Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:48 am UTC

<3 Income Defence
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Re: Starcraft!

Postby xooll » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:24 pm UTC

I like protoss best because they have the neatest special abilities. I love how one or two psionic storms can take out a dozen attacking spaceships.
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Re: Starcraft!

Postby Yakk » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:44 pm UTC

Some basic steps:
1> Rapid start build. You should know which buildings to build, which units to build, and you should be building them the moment you have the resources.

Play with how many harvesters you build and how much non-harvesters. Play with when you build your refinery.

Your goal in the initial build is to be able to survive an enemy rush before you are ready to attack, and be able to produce an assault force to hit/harrass/take out the enemy quickly.

Two interesting staring times are when you are approaching the support limit of your units, and when you are approaching the limits of being able to produce more harvesters.

The "top notch" brainless units for each side:
Protoss: Zealots, Carriers
Zerg: Zergings, Hydralisks
Humans: Marines and Medics (aka M&Ms)

The "base crackers":
Protoss: Carriers
Zerg: Zerglings, or the flying spitting things
Humans: Siege Tanks

other units are generally special purpose units. Ie, Goliaths are inefficient on the ground, but are good anti-air.

You can either figure out what the other side is building and counter it, or you can hit the enemy so hard with a large number of good units you destroy them.

Expanding is important. Knowing when to build a new base, and making it productive, can be key.

...

Magic is also important.
Zerg: Relatively low magic. Their spells are decent, but... Nydus canals can be break games sometimes.

Human: A Sci Ship or two can be very useful. Yamato cannon can be used to slowly base crack.

Protoss: Psi storm is very good -- note that 2 psi storms in the same spot don't do extra damage.
Possession is cute (but a bit late game). Stasis is godly. The air-escort "anti-ground shield" can break the enemies anti-air.

...

Vision is important. The Zerg and the Protoss both have stealth units that can seriously mess you up. An army of burrowers without vision will destroy you, and dark templars are almost good enough even without their stealth.

Protoss anti-stealth is twofold: observers (flying invisible weak things) and cannons. All fleets and armies should have at least one observer following it around, with some extra waiting in the wings.

Human anti-stealth is the science boat and the scan. Building the scan early is important, but it isn't sufficient to defend bases: you need some missile towers for that.

Zerg have easy anti-stealth with their overminds, but they move slowly.

...

Types of map. There are "ground" maps, where you can reach the enemy on ground, and then there are "air" maps where you cannot. Most ground maps have one or two sub-bases that are air-only. Build tactics and strategy change a lot.

...

1v1 is very different than 2v2 or 3v3, because of how things scale. You cannot only build static defenses in an NvN game for N>1 because a rush from two players can overrun 1 set of static defenses.

...

Some cute tactics:
Photon cannon rush. Send a probe near enemy base (but not to near). Build a pillar. Then warp in cannons in a creep towards the enemy base. Done early enough, it can cripple someone. Also useful on air maps, together with building a warp nexus.

Nydus canal sneak. Find an area in the enemy base that isn't covered by zerg anti-ground defences. Pop up a nydus canal. Have your entire army spawn right in the middle of the enemy base and hollow out the core. Very useful on air maps.

Flying bases. Sometimes it is quicker to build a terran command center and fly it somewhere than build the entire air infrastructure. In NvN, you can also use this to survive an early rush and possibly recover.

...

Standard tactics are more about "build a rush force faster than the enemy" or "tech up and grow your economy faster than the enemy", together with "harrass the enemy to shrink their economy".
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR

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Re: Starcraft!

Postby EdgarJPublius » Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:59 pm UTC

The Zerg owns all in early game with the classic Zerg rush, but not everyone realizes they have a very strong late game as well with guardians that outrange ground defenses and the scourge that can even destroy carriers with some micro.

A good tactic if you don't feel like the zergling rush is a lurker rush, similar to the protoss turret rush, just tech rush to lurkers and plop them near enemy bases and expansions for a hard to spot, durable harasser.
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Re: Starcraft!

Postby Maseiken » Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:00 am UTC

Terran have...
Medics?
Battlecruisers...?
"GRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOWR!!!!"
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Re: Starcraft!

Postby zingmaster » Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:51 pm UTC

I always sucked at SC. Never that great at RTS games. But I'm still excited for numba 2!

Yeah, Protoss are amazing, basically.
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Re: Starcraft!

Postby theonemephisto » Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:58 pm UTC

Starcraft has one of the best balances in the game that I've ever seen. Not only are all of the races entirely different (no Total Annihilation-type balancing here), but all their playstyles are just radically different. I love how you can just pick the playstyle that suits you and develop it and be able to be competitive with any race.

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Re: Starcraft!

Postby Maseiken » Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:48 am UTC

It's a great system.
But my problem is,
I LIKE Terran, but I PLAY better with Zerg.
And I read protoss lore religiously...
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Re: Starcraft!

Postby Oblivious Bear » Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:57 am UTC

[soapbox=gamer_nerd]

Debunking some common Brood War myths before we go any further:
1) Carriers are not that good. In fact, they're almost completely useless once your opponent knows you have them. Against zerg, they are rarely if ever recommended (scourge and defilers' plague pop them like balloons), and they only work against Terran if your opponent doesn't realize you have them; if he does, EMP and/or massed goliaths will make short work of your oh-so-expensive fleet. Use your resources for dragoons instead in 19 out of 20 situations.
2) As has been stated earlier, the races are balanced. Check out some pro games if you don't believe me - the game is skill and speed dependent, not race dependent, or there wouldn't be such a balanced spread of pro gamers between the three races.
3) Zerg are not all that powerful on offense in the early game. In fact, barring extremely risky, extremely situational tactics, an offensive zerg is at a disadvantage early game against an even mildly skilled protoss or terran player. The thing to do is build a second expansion extremely quickly, throw down a sunken colony or two, and then prepare to play offense, when you can have hydralisks from three hatcheries instead of zerglings from one.
4) It's in fact pretty easy to win games online; just read some decent strategy guides first (I recommend Starcraft University), and play your first 20-30 (at least) matches in games with "noob" in the title. Make sure they're all 1v1 (gives you a feel for the game faster than anything else) and make sure it's not a "fastest" or "money" map - if the resources are unlimited, you're not learning anything. Lost Temple is good, anything from [url=wgtour.com]The World Gaming Tour[/url]'s map pack is good.

[/soapbox]

Anyway. Defend The Fort is my favorite UMS game. I generally play Protoss in real games. I play on US-West, my nick is CustServ, and I'd be willing to play/tutor you any time I'm online. However, I'm still in the process of installing Brood War onto my laptop (can't find the original CD, just the expansion), so I probably won't be online for the next week or so at least.
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Re: Starcraft!

Postby zonk » Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:45 am UTC

i play at small LANs with my buddies, can't wait for nr 2, then i shall rule
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Re: Starcraft!

Postby Vekter » Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:01 pm UTC

See, my main problem is, I like playing Protoss, but I have trouble with pylon placement. Half the time against Terran they just nuke my pylons, and the other half the time against Zerg I just get canal'd.

If anyone wants to play a practice game with me, I'll be on tomorrow around 6:00 PM CST. Not sure what server, but I'll lock the game and name it "XKCD Starcraft".

PM me for the pass.
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Re: Starcraft!

Postby Robin S » Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:14 pm UTC

One of my favourite games ever, as playing with someone of a similar standard to yourself pretty much never gets old - for me at least - in either co-operative (against AI) or competitive play. Ask people you know for their battle.net account names and create your own password-protected games if you want to play seriously online.
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Re: Starcraft!

Postby Gelsamel » Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:15 am UTC

I hardly play normal games, I mostly just play defences especially income defences.

My normal play strategy isn't really so I can win.. it's just so I can build stuff ahaha.

I usually just put like 4 layers of photon cannons around my base and then run out of money and just sit there and end up dying, it's pretty fun. I just like making big bases with huge defences xD.
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Re: Starcraft!

Postby Yakk » Sat Oct 27, 2007 2:26 pm UTC

My non-competitive strategy is the "protoss zerg".

First get going. Maybe send a photon cannon assault team off to harass an enemy.

Second, send probes out relatively early. They hide in corners mostly (useful if you are besieged later on).

Third, start doing "instant bases" -- nexus, pylon, wait. Then 4 to 6 cannons. Spam probes. Do this with air bases, ground bases -- to it everywhere. Continue to harass and attack the enemy while doing it.

As your economy ramps up, build production centers -- they are quite cheap. Hit the enemy with assault streams and keep them off balance. Switch up your tactics -- a wave of dragoon and dark templar backed zealots, followed up by a wave of carriers backed with observers and arbiters. You can build an entirely new force in shockingly little time if you have the resource income.

...

I also like doing "air maps", ideally 2v2 to 4v4. Each player has a good chance of initially defending their isolated island, and you get some great air wars over territory later on. One game I remember fondly had a given treasure island change hands at least 3 times over the game, only to be bypassed in the final moments. (a dual "drop a probe and build a rear base" and "drop a drone and build a nydus canal" ended the game: They spotted the probe base before it was too late, and then the wave of infinite zerglings took them out.)
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Re: Starcraft!

Postby Maseiken » Sun Oct 28, 2007 12:47 am UTC

I like Spamming squads of 10 marines and 2 Medics.
Not a threat, but darned irritating.
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Re: Starcraft!

Postby Ten Thousand Fists » Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:25 am UTC

sounds like im the only one who has never played brood war.
I love the zerg early rush, someone said that it wasn't good but if you nail the timing and the pop limit its really fun and easly takes out one player(most times)

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Re: Starcraft!

Postby Yakk » Sun Oct 28, 2007 2:03 am UTC

Terran easy counter: 2 or 3 marines in a bunker. Or just block a choke point with supply depots & al.

Protoss easy counter: a single photon cannon with reasonably restricted geometry reaching it. Add in either a single zealot half way through, or a second cannon warped in, and your economic damage is less than the attacker.
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR

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Re: Starcraft!

Postby The Cosmic Fool » Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:01 pm UTC

All my energy has been focused on waiting for the 2nd one to come out. I have such high expectations for it.

Hopefully it's going to do what the first one did for PC gaming. I hope.
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Re: Starcraft!

Postby Oblivious Bear » Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:42 pm UTC

Unfortunately, expectations for Starcraft 2 are so high that it's impossible it will be as good as expected.

We all need to remember, also, that Starcraft wasn't balanced until Brood War 1.11 or thereabouts. Starcraft 2 will probably have some huge problems at first. That's what patches and expansions are for.

As if that wasn't enough, the playstyle seems as if it'll be vastly different - much more emphasis on mobile armies, micromanagement, harassing, etc., as opposed to the choke defense that made up a significant portion of Brood War. So Brood War noobs and non-players will probably have an advantage - they'll be less set in their "I can defend this base" mindset. Towns will lose a lot of their sanctity.

That being said,
I can't fucking wait.
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Re: Starcraft!

Postby theonemephisto » Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:19 am UTC

Oblivious Bear wrote:As if that wasn't enough, the playstyle seems as if it'll be vastly different - much more emphasis on mobile armies, micromanagement, harassing, etc., as opposed to the choke defense that made up a significant portion of Brood War. So Brood War noobs and non-players will probably have an advantage - they'll be less set in their "I can defend this base" mindset. Towns will lose a lot of their sanctity.

Wait, Starcraft1 wasn't all about mobile armies, micromanagement, and harassment? You could have fooled me, I thought that it was ALL about having mobile armies that could double on offense, defense, and harassing enemy bases and expansions to get advantages while battles themselves were all about the micromanagement of your units attack order, formations, and spells.

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Re: Starcraft!

Postby Yakk » Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:53 am UTC

In the early game, defensive buildings beat attackers.

In the mid game, attackers can beat defensive buildings with the right choice of units or enough power concentration.

In the late game, defensive buildings are nearly useless, other than as a supply-point cheap delaying tactic.
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR

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Re: Starcraft!

Postby xooll » Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:23 am UTC

Ok, I figured out the real reason I prefer to play Protoss. It's because they have the best music.
So, I got tired of the fact that the appearance of my band name in my signature made my posts on this forum the dominant result when googling for my music. Anyway, if you think I might happen to be a good musician, you can test this theory here.

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Re: Starcraft!

Postby sunami » Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:28 am UTC

xooll wrote:Ok, I figured out the real reason I prefer to play Protoss. It's because they have the best music.

And the best quote.. ever.
YOU REQUIRE MORE VESPENE GAS.

That said, I hadn't played Starcraft in 4-5 years, but I've reinstalled it as of a month ago, ahh the memories..
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Re: Starcraft!

Postby Oblivious Bear » Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:30 am UTC

theonemephisto wrote:Wait, Starcraft1 wasn't all about mobile armies, micromanagement, and harassment? You could have fooled me, I thought that it was ALL about having mobile armies that could double on offense, defense, and harassing enemy bases and expansions to get advantages while battles themselves were all about the micromanagement of your units attack order, formations, and spells.

Major points for major sarcasm.

Gained in general, but there's also ramp and choke defense, particularly in the early game. Looking at Protoss and Terran units for Starcraft 2, it looks like choke points will matter much less starting much earlier - you don't really even need to tech to dropships or air to kill workers and get out with no casualties, even when the ramp's blocked, when you have colossi and reapers.
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Re: Starcraft!

Postby The Cosmic Fool » Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:42 am UTC

I know you're right. Deep down, I know the gamer cynicism belief that it won't be good as it's predecessor.

But this is Blizzard we're talking about here. They haven't failed yet.
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Re: Starcraft!

Postby Oblivious Bear » Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:12 am UTC

The Cosmic Fool wrote:I know you're right. Deep down, I know the gamer cynicism belief that it won't be good as it's predecessor.

But this is Blizzard we're talking about here. They haven't failed yet.

Warcraft.

Then again, the main reason I hate it is that it's ALMOST fantasy starcraft, they just had to have heroes and creep...
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Re: Starcraft!

Postby Maseiken » Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:05 am UTC

...
that's all I'm going to say
"GRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOWR!!!!"
(Translation: "Objection!")

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Re: Starcraft!

Postby evilbeanfiend » Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:21 pm UTC

Ten Thousand Fists wrote:sounds like im the only one who has never played brood war.
I love the zerg early rush, someone said that it wasn't good but if you nail the timing and the pop limit its really fun and easly takes out one player(most times)


if you want to practice against zerg rushes play against the AI, it's pretty much its only tactic iirc.
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Re: Starcraft!

Postby Sandals » Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:51 pm UTC

am i the only one who only ever played it as the story?

i hate the overly competitive nature of online games of this type. i've never got on with them, as i don't see the point of putting in the necessary hours to get past the stage where you lose every game within 5 mins cos someone knows what to do, then shouts "lol!!!111!! noob!!111!" at you.

best game ever, yes. but only for the story missions IMHO.

but i'll probably get the 2nd one. :D
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Re: Starcraft!

Postby DrStalker » Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:36 pm UTC

The inability to group more than 12 units or queue commands meant I didn't liek Starcraft much compared to Total Annihilation. The single player game was fun, mainly for the story and characters, but it involved so much clicking and micromanagement. TA's build queues/command queueing/no group limits were much nicer, even if TA lacked a story beyond "two races are figthing, now go kill the other guys." (TA also wins points for having teh only beleivable resource system I've seen in an RTS, but that's very minor since the traditional RTS systems are fine for gameplay)

I'm getting Starcraft 2, because even if the game itself is poor (and with Blizzard behind it I expect it to be average to great) there will be a nice story, nice cutscenes, interesting characters, and all those other things that go into making a nice game blizzard style.
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Re: Starcraft!

Postby theonemephisto » Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:44 pm UTC

Oblivious Bear wrote:Gained in general, but there's also ramp and choke defense, particularly in the early game. Looking at Protoss and Terran units for Starcraft 2, it looks like choke points will matter much less starting much earlier - you don't really even need to tech to dropships or air to kill workers and get out with no casualties, even when the ramp's blocked, when you have colossi and reapers.

True, as early-game tactics are all about securing your base against harassers through ramp/bridge defense. Of course, by the time you hit mid-late game those strategies become so easy to bypass that it hurts. BTW, favorite tactic ever in Starcraft is the reaver drop, watching a perfectly executed one just go in, blow up a million workers, and get out without taking any casualties is brilliant. Second is probably the defiler/lurker drop.

And it does look like that, but I'd have to wait to see how the tech tree works before I could make a judgement. I mean, reaper's might be an early-game unit, but they could just as easily be one of those units that take some later buildings to get or require certain mid-game upgrades to gain effectiveness. And I have no clue how the colossus or the nydus worm work into their techtrees, though I'd suspect both are mid-late game things.

Sandals wrote:am i the only one who only ever played it as the story?

i hate the overly competitive nature of online games of this type. i've never got on with them, as i don't see the point of putting in the necessary hours to get past the stage where you lose every game within 5 mins cos someone knows what to do, then shouts "lol!!!111!! noob!!111!" at you.

best game ever, yes. but only for the story missions IMHO.

but i'll probably get the 2nd one. :D

The story was good, the story missions sucked. The amazing thing that Blizzard does IMO is that they build for the hardcore PvP audience first, design a balanced game that will cater to that and reward skill, and then tack on some stuff to attract some casual gamers while relying on the popularity of their competitive game to get them business (heard it on some interview).

And it isn't that hard to get past the "newb" status of the game. Take some time to play the game and get used to the tech trees and the units (easy and not-too time consuming), take some time to get onto strategy sites/forums and just read up on basic strats and things like build orders, take it online and just keep playing, making sure to learn from every game, win or lose, and try to find a couple mentors/friends that you meed to help you along (from my experience in Guild Wars, lots of higher-level players are willing to help at least a little as long as you're willing to learn).

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CorporalClegg
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Re: Starcraft!

Postby CorporalClegg » Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:14 am UTC

I recently started playing again too, and am pretty rusty as well :)

The thing that helped me the most was every time I got my ass handed to me by some crazy korean guy, I'd save the replay and watch what he did. You do that a few times and you pick up some pretty interesting tactics.

I play on USEast as "FoolOfADrunkard," whisper me sometime if you want a few pointers.

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Re: Starcraft!

Postby dnL » Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:46 am UTC

Starcraft UMS games FTW.

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FoS
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Re: Starcraft!

Postby FoS » Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:03 am UTC

The sure fire way to beat any rush hands down is simply to rush a leetle faster :P

My favourite wacky tactics are in order of funness:
Terran Bunker rush: You basically rush the base and build a creeping barrage of bunkers. Sucks a bit against Zerg coz of the creep but if you fast enough you can cut down on their creep production and win.
Dark Templar rush: You go straight for Dark Templars and cripple the enemy. Fails miserably against Zerg (bastard Overlords) and if you do it to Terran you need to knock out any detection quickly. Once thats done molest the harvesters and then send in the Zealots to mop up.
Corsair Overlord Hunting: Basically just build Corsairs and molest your opponents Overlords so he doesn't have enough Supply to do anything. Follow with waves of Zealots/Dragoons.
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zenten
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Re: Starcraft!

Postby zenten » Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:51 pm UTC

The Cosmic Fool wrote:I know you're right. Deep down, I know the gamer cynicism belief that it won't be good as it's predecessor.

But this is Blizzard we're talking about here. They haven't failed yet.


Warcraft 3.

If Starcraft 2 has the stupid hero concept I'm not buying it.

That being said, Warcraft 3 did have really pretty stuff in it. I love them Night Elves.


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