EVE Online

Of the Tabletop, and other, lesser varieties.

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Spambot5546
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Re: EVE Online

Postby Spambot5546 » Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:31 pm UTC

So this is from a long time ago, but I'd never seen it until just now. It's an article about a woman whose boyfriend gets her to drop WoW for a day and try EVE and she explains how EVE is hostile to women.

She makes some pretty good points, like how there are more men than women in the ads and trailers. It's true, there are about three times as many males in the pictures on the EVE website as females. I counted. I had to rewatch my favorite trailer because I couldn't recall a single female voice* in the whole thing.

But then there's some points where she lost me. For example.

From their website, and their marketing techniques, they target male potential players, and advertise mostly male-stereotyped activities (ie. conquer lands & manipulate markets).

You are a giant hunk of metal that performs male-dominated interests, and you have no motivation to care about why you should get through this steep learning curve to make your hunk of metal better.

I've never considered myself a feminist, mostly out of laziness, but I try to be open-minded and empathetic. That said, I'm having a hard time with the idea that there is something inherently "male" about conquest and market work. I mean, she plays World of Warcraft, a game that (based on my recollections of Warcraft III) deals pretty heavily in conquest and has a market that's only marginally less active than EVE's. Is there something different in the way that CCP portrays these activities that makes system sovereignty Men-only and the conquest of Kalimdor egalitarian? Am I just completely missing the point?
She even talks about the spaceships. Are spaceships chauvinist? I can't imagine anyone not liking spaceships.

*Turns out there's one, one of the dread pilots in the second fleet. She says about ten words in total.
Last edited by Spambot5546 on Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:10 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: EVE Online

Postby Carlomagno » Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:29 pm UTC

I'm going to try to understand her argument here. I know some women in my WoW guild who generally avoid those sorts of manipulation and conquest advertised around Eve. They are quiet, demure, and generally non-confrontational. That's pretty much the opposite of what I think a feminist tries to get women to be. I see this sort of split pretty often in feminism arguments, though. They simultaneously want a world that doesn't require them to be more like men, while wanting to be allowed to be more like men. Not inherently a problem, but it seems to become very confusing.

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Re: EVE Online

Postby mike-l » Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:06 am UTC

I do consider myself feminist. And those two quotes are just dumb. It's fine to say that many women wouldn't find those things appealing (no clue if that's true or not) but the jump to hostility towards women boggles the mind.

The points about lack of female representation in trailers on the other hand IS an issue.
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Re: EVE Online

Postby Carlomagno » Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:23 am UTC

mike-l wrote:I do consider myself feminist. And those two quotes are just dumb. It's fine to say that many women wouldn't find those things appealing (no clue if that's true or not) but the jump to hostility towards women boggles the mind.

The points about lack of female representation in trailers on the other hand IS an issue.


Is "diverse" footage really worth it, though? If it's forced it just ends up looking worse than a McDonalds or Walmart ad, with one of those perfectly diverse groups looking happy and cooperative, when you can tell they're just actors paid for their skin color/gender.

Spambot5546
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Re: EVE Online

Postby Spambot5546 » Thu Nov 15, 2012 11:59 am UTC

Carlomagno wrote:
mike-l wrote:I do consider myself feminist. And those two quotes are just dumb. It's fine to say that many women wouldn't find those things appealing (no clue if that's true or not) but the jump to hostility towards women boggles the mind.

The points about lack of female representation in trailers on the other hand IS an issue.


Is "diverse" footage really worth it, though? If it's forced it just ends up looking worse than a McDonalds or Walmart ad, with one of those perfectly diverse groups looking happy and cooperative, when you can tell they're just actors paid for their skin color/gender.

It's not supposed to be forced, it's supposed to be the product of people legitimately wanting be inclusive. There's no law "forcing" good gender representation in gaming ads, nor should there be, but developers should be doing everything they can to not seem like sexist cockholes. You don't have to be Evony ads to fail to do that. CCP is failing simply by showing a bunch of trailers that say "look at how much dudes enjoy our game" instead of "look at how much people enjoy our game."
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Enokh
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Re: EVE Online

Postby Enokh » Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:55 pm UTC

On the other hand, they'll have to avoid using. . .classically beautiful women, or they'll run in to the opposite problem where it looks like they're just using women to attract men and thus will still be kinda hostile towards women.

In other news, my life 'asploded, so I'll no longer be playing EVE. Again. Life is pain.

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Re: EVE Online

Postby mike-l » Thu Nov 15, 2012 11:58 pm UTC

Enokh wrote:On the other hand, they'll have to avoid using. . .classically beautiful women, or they'll run in to the opposite problem where it looks like they're just using women to attract men and thus will still be kinda hostile towards women.

Nah. You can have good looking women. They just need to be there as something more than sex objects. (cf Evony)
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Re: EVE Online

Postby Ralith The Third » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:09 am UTC

Not advertising towards a group is not discriminatory against that group. I'm not sure why you would feel it is.
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mike-l
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Re: EVE Online

Postby mike-l » Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:00 am UTC

That's the part of the argument I called stupid. On the other hand, creating content in which an entire gender is simply left out is a problem across all fiction.

Anyway, nice surprise for me when I finalized the last 4 months of my skill plan tonight. 121 days til remap, my plan has 121 days of skills in Per/Wil. Didn't plan it, but pretty damn happy I won't have to make any choices in 4 months.
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Re: EVE Online

Postby Aaeriele » Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:40 am UTC

Considering that most of the EVE trailers don't feature visible people, it wouldn't exactly be hard to just actually use some female voice actors.
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Re: EVE Online

Postby Ralith The Third » Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:22 pm UTC

Aaeriele wrote:Considering that most of the EVE trailers don't feature visible people, it wouldn't exactly be hard to just actually use some female voice actors.


Their target market (like any other video game) is predominantly male. Their staff is predominantly male. Their players are predominantly male. Lo and behold, their trailers consist primarily of males.

I don't see very many make-up companies advertising for men. This doesn't bother me.
Omni.

Spambot5546
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Re: EVE Online

Postby Spambot5546 » Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:25 pm UTC

The last time they had a trailer that prominently featured actual people they went the "gratuitous ass shot" route for the only female character.
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Re: EVE Online

Postby gnutrino » Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:41 pm UTC

Spambot5546 wrote:The last time they had a trailer that prominently featured actual people they went the "gratuitous ass shot" route for the only female character.


Let's not forget this... although on second thoughts maybe we should.

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Re: EVE Online

Postby Aaeriele » Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:03 pm UTC

Ralith The Third wrote:
Aaeriele wrote:Considering that most of the EVE trailers don't feature visible people, it wouldn't exactly be hard to just actually use some female voice actors.


Their target market (like any other video game) is predominantly male. Their staff is predominantly male. Their players are predominantly male. Lo and behold, their trailers consist primarily of males.


Do you not see how that's a self-perpetuating cycle?
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Spambot5546
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Re: EVE Online

Postby Spambot5546 » Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:33 pm UTC

Aaeriele wrote:
Ralith The Third wrote:
Aaeriele wrote:Considering that most of the EVE trailers don't feature visible people, it wouldn't exactly be hard to just actually use some female voice actors.


Their target market (like any other video game) is predominantly male. Their staff is predominantly male. Their players are predominantly male. Lo and behold, their trailers consist primarily of males.


Do you not see how that's a self-perpetuating cycle?

I'm actually pretty sure the part about the staff isn't even true. Given that, we can restate the above as:

Their trailers consist primarily of males, lo and behold their target market is predominantly male and their players are predominantly male.
"It is bitter – bitter", he answered,
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And because it is my heart."

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Re: EVE Online

Postby Ralith The Third » Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:57 pm UTC

Aaeriele wrote:
Ralith The Third wrote:
Aaeriele wrote:Considering that most of the EVE trailers don't feature visible people, it wouldn't exactly be hard to just actually use some female voice actors.


Their target market (like any other video game) is predominantly male. Their staff is predominantly male. Their players are predominantly male. Lo and behold, their trailers consist primarily of males.


Do you not see how that's a self-perpetuating cycle?


Err.. that target markets don't change? Surprising, isn't it - that's how it's been for ages.

I don't expect barbie to advertise for males (though having a more realistic doll would be good)
Omni.

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Re: EVE Online

Postby Carlomagno » Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:06 am UTC

While we're on the topic, I want to address something I've noticed almost universally: female gamers I have met have absolutely adored the Spyro the Dragon series. Clearly, there's something to it (beyond collecting shiny things, I think). It's not even platformers in general, as plenty of those don't appeal to girls. Yet the Spyro series consistently did. Game developers need to explore why that is. It could be a neurological difference between the genders, or it could be cultural. That's a real way to remove gender bias. Demanding that CCP add more female characters to their trailers isn't going to advance anyone's best interests.

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Re: EVE Online

Postby Spambot5546 » Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:57 pm UTC

Carlomagno wrote:It could be a neurological difference between the genders

Image
Carlomagno wrote:or it could be cultural.

Image
Carlomagno wrote:That's a real way to remove gender bias. Demanding that CCP add more female characters to their trailers isn't going to advance anyone's best interests.

What is? "Be Spyro"? All you've done is claim that men and women think differently. You forgot to actually propose a way to remove gender bias.
And yes, having more egalitarian trailers is in everyone's best interest.
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Re: EVE Online

Postby SecondTalon » Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:52 pm UTC

Carlomagno wrote:Demanding that CCP add more female characters to their trailers isn't going to advance anyone's best interests.

Well, the status quo sure as fuck isn't working. Throwing a bone of acknowledging that ladies (or even nonspecified gender-type folk) also play the game and are represented as character models one can select is better than nothing.

If you've got a better idea, we'd all love to hear it. Not just here. Like, in the UN and shit.

Err.. that target markets don't change? Surprising, isn't it - that's how it's been for ages.
Which is why Marlboro is still a ladies-only cigarette and isn't associated with machoism at all.

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Re: EVE Online

Postby Enokh » Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:24 pm UTC

I'm honestly surprised that gender/sex is even a thing in this game. Like. . .you basically ARE a spaceship. There's not even voice-acting, from what I've run in to.

Just kind of a weird issue for this particular game, in my mind. Weird in that it's way "easier" to fix.

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Re: EVE Online

Postby Carlomagno » Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:52 pm UTC

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. What I meant to say would help remove gender bias was some real research into games like Spyro, testing the various elements and combinations of elements to better understand what makes the game so appealing to one gender.

Also, did I really deserve a gigantic .gif making fun of my assertion that the difference in gaming choices between genders might be neurological? I know there are issues with gender and that for some people it's not a male/female switch but more of a spectrum. Yet people seem to think that, while it's okay to say men or women are more likely to have some kind of physical difference, asserting that there might be a neurological difference is blasphemy. That just seems short-sighted and counterproductive to many fields of research.

Edit: I think that it's a good general rule that huge .gifs make a good response to someone's point only on Reddit. Leave it there, please.

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Re: EVE Online

Postby boXd » Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:30 pm UTC

Enokh wrote:There's not even voice-acting, from what I've run in to.


Aura used to have a female voice, but I'm not sure whether she/it still has.

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Re: EVE Online

Postby Carlomagno » Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:58 am UTC

boXd wrote:
Enokh wrote:There's not even voice-acting, from what I've run in to.


Aura used to have a female voice, but I'm not sure whether she/it still has.


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Re: EVE Online

Postby AMathmagician » Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:01 am UTC

Wait, EVE has sound?

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Re: EVE Online

Postby Alasseo » Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:16 am UTC

AMathmagician wrote:Wait, EVE has sound?


You can't have sound in space guies!!!!1111oneone
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Re: EVE Online

Postby AMathmagician » Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:26 am UTC

Alasseo wrote:
AMathmagician wrote:Wait, EVE has sound?


You can't have sound in space guies!!!!1111oneone



The joke was that most people I've talked to who play don't have the in-game sounds on. When I'm on, I'm almost always on Mumble, either for fleets or to talk with alliance members. For me, EVE may as well not have sound for how often I hear it.

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Re: EVE Online

Postby Alasseo » Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:04 am UTC

AMathmagician wrote:
Alasseo wrote:
AMathmagician wrote:Wait, EVE has sound?


You can't have sound in space guies!!!!1111oneone



The joke was that most people I've talked to who play don't have the in-game sounds on. When I'm on, I'm almost always on Mumble, either for fleets or to talk with alliance members. For me, EVE may as well not have sound for how often I hear it.


Oh, I'm the same way. Eve sound would cover up either pandora, mumble/ts/vent or both.
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Re: EVE Online

Postby Spambot5546 » Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:52 am UTC

Or EVE Radio.
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And because it is my heart."

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Re: EVE Online

Postby mike-l » Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:56 am UTC

Interesting... do you just replace the ambience or do you mute the game sounds (guns firing, low armor warning, etc) as well?

I haven't done much huge multiplayer stuff in Eve, but I have in WoW, and I still always had the game sounds loud enough to hear what was going on even while talking to people.
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Re: EVE Online

Postby BlackSails » Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:31 am UTC

I keep EVE sound on (apart from the music), but thats only because ive lost too many ships to being tabbed out and not hearing the shield alarms. Most people keep sound off.

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Re: EVE Online

Postby gnutrino » Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:56 pm UTC

Speaking as someone who lives in w-spaces, not having sound on to hear WH activations from a picket alt I have sat around can make spaceships explode. So yes EVE has sound and there's at least one, fairly large, part of the playerbase that habitually has it turned on.

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Re: EVE Online

Postby boXd » Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:03 pm UTC

BlackSails wrote:I keep EVE sound on (apart from the music), but thats only because ive lost too many ships to being tabbed out and not hearing the shield alarms. Most people keep sound off.


I do that, too. During exploration, I like to keep an eye on my overview while I'm probing around, but that doesn't stop me from missing things now and again (especially because I often find myself not paying attention to my overview for longer periods of time, despite my best intentions). The beep-beep-beep targeting sound and that terrible PWAWUUUP shield danger sound have saved my ship on at least three occasions (and I have been playing EVE for a very, very short time).

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Alasseo
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Re: EVE Online

Postby Alasseo » Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:27 pm UTC

gnutrino wrote:Speaking as someone who lives in w-spaces, not having sound on to hear WH activations from a picket alt I have sat around can make spaceships explode. So yes EVE has sound and there's at least one, fairly large, part of the playerbase that habitually has it turned on.



I live in a wh, but I have no alts, so if I'm watching a wormhole, I just watch it. :p

As for shield and armor, when I started there were no alarms. I learned quickly to just damn well pay attention. :p
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Re: EVE Online

Postby Daimon » Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:03 am UTC

.................
Last edited by Daimon on Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:48 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: EVE Online

Postby BlackSails » Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:14 am UTC

Daimon wrote:From having to quit EvE back in 2010ish due to, "my computer cannot run it anymore," I've recently resubscribed, though, sadly, on a new account. And now I'm off to get my exhumer again. You know, mining for the Osprey so I can faster gain the ISK to buy skills, then, while skilling up, stockpiling more ISK so I can buy my ship.


:shock:

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Re: EVE Online

Postby Alasseo » Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:46 pm UTC

Daimon wrote:From having to quit EvE back in 2010ish due to, "my computer cannot run it anymore," I've recently resubscribed, though, sadly, on a new account. And now I'm off to get my exhumer again. You know, mining for the Osprey so I can faster gain the ISK to buy skills, then, while skilling up, stockpiling more ISK so I can buy my ship.



You're hurting my brain. Please don't. What's your in game name?
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Re: EVE Online

Postby Alasseo » Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:56 pm UTC

So I hear Damnations have link modules.
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Re: EVE Online

Postby BlackSails » Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:34 am UTC

Alasseo wrote:So I hear Damnations have link modules.

DIDNT WANT THOSE MALICES ANYWAY

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Re: EVE Online

Postby mike-l » Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:47 am UTC

I don't know anything about this, but isn't losing ships in a tournament kind of guaranteed?
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Re: EVE Online

Postby BlackSails » Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:57 am UTC

Its not, and we would have won this match had our fearless captain remembered to do the 1 thing his ship was supposed to do :oops:


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