EVE Online

[Izawwlgood]

5-10m in an hour of high sec activity sounds about right.

[BlackSails]

5-10m in an hour of high sec activity sounds about right.

That sounds shockingly low. I think even mining is better than that.

[Spambot5546]

If this is right you can pull off maybe 100k m3/hr in a Hulk*. If you can get 100 isk/m3 (I think that's about where Veld was when I stopped playing) you're looking at 10m/hr.

*That's assuming continuous mining. If you have to stop to haul after every can you're going to cut into that a LOT.

[Kulantan]

Ok, I'm loving exploration. I found myself a corp. Me and their chief explorer went on a high sec scanning rampage. Her in a Tengu and me just providing an extra scanner in my frigate to find things faster. We made about 430 mil in a couple of hours. I love being (kinda almost) useful right from the word go.

[Izawwlgood]

5-10m in an hour of high sec activity sounds about right.

That sounds shockingly low. I think even mining is better than that.

Yeah, as pointed out, mining veld is about 200 isk/m3 now (up from ~100 isk/m3 which is what I too was going on), so, a Hulk which can pull in maybe 1800 (or so?) m3 per cycle, you're looking at 200 * 1800 * 60 = 21m for constant mining. Assume you've got to spend a bit of time hauling it, or, split it with someone else whose also hauling, and you're still looking at roughly 10m per person per hour.

Doing missions or such in high sec is going to net you about that. I dunno what high sec exploration is like, but I can't imagine it's fantastically higher.

[BlackSails]

Doing missions or such in high sec is going to net you about that. I dunno what high sec exploration is like, but I can't imagine it's fantastically higher.

Maybe doing missions in a rupture. Blitzing missions in a macha is upwards of 100/hour in highsec.

[halbarad]

Doing missions or such in high sec is going to net you about that. I dunno what high sec exploration is like, but I can't imagine it's fantastically higher.

Maybe doing missions in a rupture. Blitzing missions in a macha is upwards of 100/hour in highsec.

I was hitting about 60mil an hour with a Tengu before LP, but I was only doing missions for about 2 hours at a time and usually a few days between them as it was so boring.

A Raven or Domi in level 4s for a low skilled player (20mil or less sp) would probably be getting 20 - 40mil depending on missions they get and if they have an alt/friend to salvage.

[BlackSails]

Doing missions or such in high sec is going to net you about that. I dunno what high sec exploration is like, but I can't imagine it's fantastically higher.

Maybe doing missions in a rupture. Blitzing missions in a macha is upwards of 100/hour in highsec.

I was hitting about 60mil an hour with a Tengu before LP, but I was only doing missions for about 2 hours at a time and usually a few days between them as it was so boring.

The LP is where nearly all the money is. If you are missioning for bounties or mission rewards, you are really doing it wrong, especially in a tengu.

As a corollary, if you are missioning for a faction like caldari navy (which has a terrible LP store) you are also doing it wrong

[Spambot5546]

Aren't Cal Navy invulns one of the better LP items? I know I had one or two on my Tengu.

[DaBigCheez]

CN Invuls have a high *price*, but their LP/ISK ratio (like pretty much everything else in Caldari Navy's LP store) is actually pretty terrible, especially after accounting for tags.

[halbarad]

Doing missions or such in high sec is going to net you about that. I dunno what high sec exploration is like, but I can't imagine it's fantastically higher.

Maybe doing missions in a rupture. Blitzing missions in a macha is upwards of 100/hour in highsec.

I was hitting about 60mil an hour with a Tengu before LP, but I was only doing missions for about 2 hours at a time and usually a few days between them as it was so boring.

The LP is where nearly all the money is. If you are missioning for bounties or mission rewards, you are really doing it wrong, especially in a tengu.

As a corollary, if you are missioning for a faction like caldari navy (which has a terrible LP store) you are also doing it wrong

I was missioning for Sisters of Eve, reasonable exchange rate on the launchers. Never worked it out to include LP but I think last time I checked I had about 200k LP for them so could make a nice bit out of that and had built that up over about 2 or 3 months when I could be bothered with missions.

[BlackSails]

CN Invuls have a high *price*, but their LP/ISK ratio (like pretty much everything else in Caldari Navy's LP store) is actually pretty terrible, especially after accounting for tags.

Its gotten even worse recently, with the deadspace invulns driving their price down by like 30%.

For laughs, look at the isk/lp on navy ravens.

[Ixtellor]

"Reading about EvE is more fun than playing Eve".

Please share your epic stories as I, and others, enjoy reading them. The story about Band of Brothers was interesting. (If possible don't use jargon -- I do know what Plex and isk are though)
(The story of the first capital ship and the first capital ship destruction was intense, but the jargon got a little heavy in the wiki version)

[Izawwlgood]

I knew someone who got into the equivalent of a gold rush at ground level, and scored so big he got bored and quit.

Spoiler:

Back in the day, the only way to make tech 2 items and ships was if you scored an original Blue Print through a lottery system, which was exceedingly rare and unlikely to happen. As such, tech 2 items and ships were fairly pricy, and blue print copies sold pretty well. For bigger ships, like, say, anything above cruisers, and most notably, the biggest mining ship available (the Hulk), they used to cost much, much more than they do today. The Hulk for example, averaged 400m in these dark days.

CCP decided to make T2 more available, and released the invention system, wherein anyone can produce blue print copies, for a cost. A friend of mine, named chapter13 (hyuk hyuk) decided he was going to get in on the hulk manufacturing business. So he did what any dedicated Eve player would do; as soon as the announcement came out about T2 invention, he started training at least 10 character to be able to contribute. Most were inventors and capable of manufacturing as well, one was for anchoring a POS in high sec for the requisite facilities, one could fly a freighter etc.

Everything is released, and within 3 days, he's invested maybe 400-500m, and has upwards of 30 hulks being built. He's starting to build Hulks on other characters. Within a week, he's in the black, and within a month, even with the price of Hulks falling, he's made more money than he knows what to do with. So much in fact, he's buying up tech 2, capital, and battleship BPOs just for collection purposes. I lost touch with him from about 2 months before invention was released til about 8 months after, at which point, I joined his corp and started also building Hulks. The price had dropped to about 150m by then, but was profitable enough that I made great bank. He's donating money to people writing calculators in eve.. He's selling researched, packaged capital blue print copies for oodles of cash. Finally, he's unsure of what to do, so he just outfits a bunch of characters with capitals, and stages WWII naval battles. He then quits and hands over all his characters and production lines.

[BlackSails]

A long time ago, my corp used to live in highsec. We finally moved to the most active lowsec area, Molden Heath, and shacked up in the same system as Gunpoint Diplomacy, one of the oldest and best pirate corps. They immediately wardeced us so we could fight on gates.

A couple months later, my ceo was doing level 5s in a carrier, when he got pointed. Cyno field (a beacon that capital ships can jump to) went up, and an enemy fleet came in. At this point he was fucked.

He immediately began getting a fleet together, and a hatchery fleet landed on the field and pointed the enemy capitals (so they couldnt warp or jump out). We began spamming every channel we were in for support, and over the next few minutes, a massive pirate coalition (gunpoint, the tuskers, snuffbox, HYDRA reloaded and some minmatar militia corps) filtered in. My ceo self destructed (lol dishonor). The pirate coalition then smashed up most of their caps, while their subcaps fled.

http://teamliquid.killmail.org/?a=kill_ ... d=10133951 was the result. It looks like we blobbed them hard, thats only because we took nearly no losses.
----------------------------------


Another (not epic, but fun) fight I had was when I was running an exploration site in lowsec. I was given intel by a guy ive killed a bunch of times that there was a particular pirate ganking explorers with his machariel (a very powerful faction battleship). I got 2 other people into fleet with me, and began running sites in the ganker's system. Lo and behold, I notice myself getting probed. Since we are expecting a machariel, my corpmates are in a tracking disrupting drake, and a tracking disrupting curse. However, a bhaalgorn appeared on scan. Bhaalgorns are also faction battleships, but instead of being fast and putting out incredible amounts of damage, they have huge web and energy neutralizer bonuses, making it so your ship cant do anything.

Anyway, he lands on the site, expecting to gank another missioner, and instead gets ganked himself. His blackbird (a dishonor ship) alt tries to save him and fails. He then complains in local that "solo pvp is dead because of people using ewar like you"

http://teamliquid.killmail.org/?a=kill_ ... d=12613299

[Spambot5546]

I'm not sure what's dishonorable about a blackbird, and I'm also surprised you guys had as easy a time of that as you did. I'm pretty sure he could empty the cap from all three of you in only three or four cycles, which would've hampered the eWar capabilities he was bitching about.

Probably the biggest surprise to me, though, is that people will deliberately put a 2 billion isk ship into battle alone. I could barely afford to risk T2 cruisers back when I played.

[BlackSails]

I'm not sure what's dishonorable about a blackbird, and I'm also surprised you guys had as easy a time of that as you did. I'm pretty sure he could empty the cap from all three of you in only three or four cycles, which would've hampered the eWar capabilities he was bitching about.

Probably the biggest surprise to me, though, is that people will deliberately put a 2 billion isk ship into battle alone. I could barely afford to risk T2 cruisers back when I played.

ECM is a broken mechanic, and is pretty much the #1 thing that fucks solo and small gangs. Thats why blackbirds are dishonorable. And with only 3 heavy neuts, he could not possibly neut out 3 ships at once, particularly not a tengu. I think I also had the drake fit a nos and the curse probably had a cap booster.

[Izawwlgood]

ECM is a broken mechanic, and is pretty much the #1 thing that fucks solo and small gangs.

Der, why?

[BlackSails]

There are a number of reasons

1) Jam times are very long, so being jammed pretty much means you are fucked if you were depending on targeting someone to save you (like a drake trying to web tacklers off).
2) Jam strength on ECM ships is very very high relative to sensor strength
3) Jam range is very high, so its pretty fucking hard to get a falcon into range, if it somehow fails to jam you you probably cant catch it anyway.
4) The mods that prevent jamming (eccm, low slot eccm) dont give nearly enough of a boost, and they take up a very valuable slot.
5) ECM is the only ewar in the game that is not subject to stacking penalty, and instead you get a binomial distribution of jam chances because each ecm module has an independent chance to jam you.
6) ECM is the only ewar in the game that tells you when it works. Tracking disruptors dont let you know if the enemy can still hit you. Webs dont let you know if the enemy can still catch you. ECM tells you straight out "your target cant do shit anymore." This lets you then turn and jam the next target, allowing a perfect spread of jams.
7) ECM drones, because of the lack of stacking penalty and binomial distribution, are ridiculously powerful. Every other type of ewar drone is 100% worthless.
Frigates in particular are fucked by all this since they have low sensor strength and lack the slots or capacitor to even consider fitting eccm. A blackbird can literally jam most frigates 100% of the time.

[Izawwlgood]

Hmm. Would you say the system just needs to be rebalanced then? Perhaps with strength being proportional to size, similarly to how large guns don't hit a frigate very well?

I always thought the racial specificity of ECM was a good balance, although I guess it really just depends on ranges, and whether ECCM actually helps.

[Spambot5546]

They nerfed the Falcon (The T2 version of the Blackbird) a while back. This is the first time I've heard any complaints about ECM since then.

Also

6) ECM is the only ewar in the game that tells you when it works. Tracking disruptors dont let you know if the enemy can still hit you. Webs dont let you know if the enemy can still catch you. ECM tells you straight out "your target cant do shit anymore." This lets you then turn and jam the next target, allowing a perfect spread of jams.

That's because ECM is the only eWar that's chance based, which (in my opinion) is its biggest problem. A pilot can be completely ruined by an ECM boat because of some good rolls, or an expensive ECM boat can die to a ship it should've been able to take out easily due to some bad rolls. I can't really think of any other way it could work, though.

[BlackSails]

Racial ECM doesnt balance anything, since most falcon pilots fly around with enough spares that they can dock and refit at any time.

Basically,

Ship stat changes
1) Boost the sensor strength of all ships except for logi and recons by about 20%
1a) Boost the sensor strength of interceptors massively (like 100%)
1b) Reduce the sensor strength of logi and recons. I want ECM to be a good counter to fleets that are logi and recon heavy. (Reduce them to about 80% of current sensor strength)
2) Reduce the scan res and lock range of all ecm ships by about 30% (griffin, blackbird, kitsune, falcon, rook, scorpion, tengu with the ecm electronics subsystem). The griffin right now can target about the same range as battlecruisers.

ECM Mechanic/Module changes
3) Reduce the range of ECM
4) Increase the cap use of ECM
5) Make jam length inversely proportional to scan res (This makes it so that jammed frigates are jammed for less time)
6) Make activation of ECCM instantly unjam the ship.
7) Reduce the strength of off-racial jams on racial ECM

Skill Changes
7) Add a x2 or x3 skill that gives +5% sensor strength/level.



What does this do?

1) ECM ships are now forced to be a little closer, and put a little more thought into who they want to jam.
2) ECM is a good counter vs the blob with many logi, and a bad counter to groups of 3 bcs.
3) ECM ships are also more vulnerable to being countered by other recons, while simultaneously being able to counter other recons better.
4) ECCM now forces a choice - do you turn it on and hope to not be jammed, or do you risk losing a target lock so you can instantly unjam yourself? Contrast this to now, where as soon as an ecm ships appears on grid, you overload and activate your eccm. Tactical decisions are good.
5) Multispec ECM gets a role - right now its used pretty much only by people who have no idea what they are doing.

[halbarad]

Personally the only change I'd like to see to ECM is that all it does is break current locks. So you'd go from about 22s (Normal ECM) or 10s (ECM Drones) of not being able to do anything (figuring in at least 2s lock time) to just having to relock everything.

It's a pretty big nerf but it's still making them viable to use in small gang fights and fleets but not a complete killer when it does happen.

[Jesse]

Haha, a corpmate needed some money last night, so now I own a Mammoth and a Drake. Guess I'm gonna actually start missioning instead of just mining froever.

[Izawwlgood]

Personally the only change I'd like to see to ECM is that all it does is break current locks.

That strikes me as a really good proposal, except the Blackbird is suddenly a bit less potent solo.

[Spambot5546]

Is there a part of the world where "a bit less potent" is slang for "completely nonviable"?

[halbarad]

Personally the only change I'd like to see to ECM is that all it does is break current locks.

That strikes me as a really good proposal, except the Blackbird is suddenly a bit less potent solo.

That applies to a lot of ships, especially the t1 ewar ships. Not every ship has to be viable solo and not every ship will be. That said its easily possible to make a solo blackbird fit without ECM now (I flew one once and got killed by a cynabal and friends).

[BlackSails]

It also nerfs ecm to the point of near uselessness tbh.

[Izawwlgood]

Actually, in retrospect, I don't think that changes the Blackbirds functionality much. It obviously won't hold things on lockdown as much, but given those glorious 8 mids, it can certainly effectively break locks 1v1 at a pretty high rate.
EDIT: Juuuuuuuuuuuust kidding, only 6 mids.

[Spambot5546]

Fun fact: blackbird only has six midslots.

With six jammers all of the correct race a blackbird has a 98.8% chance to jam (assuming all Vs on the blackbird pilot and a target sensor strength of 15). However this blackbird has no point, no tank, and no prop. The target will either warp off or deploy drones and put them on aggressive. 6k ehp will go down pretty quick even to a couple light drones.

Battleclinic appears to be down at the moment, but as I recall the solo blackbird build would only have three jammers, usually multifreqs. With three multifreqs your chance drops to 72.5%. That sounds higher than it is, given the blackbird's poor DPS and tank.

[Laserdan]

My 21 day buddy invite expires in 5 days. I will definitely upgrade to full - fell in love with the game.

[halbarad]

My 21 day buddy invite expires in 5 days. I will definitely upgrade to full - fell in love with the game.

You can upgrade at any time and the extra days get added on the end so you don't lose any.

[Laserdan]

My 21 day buddy invite expires in 5 days. I will definitely upgrade to full - fell in love with the game.

You can upgrade at any time and the extra days get added on the end so you don't lose any.

Yeah just waiting for my pay (even though I earn quite well, I manage to squander it every month).

[Spambot5546]

Friend of mine is trying to get me to re subscribe. It's getting harder and harder to stay on the wagon.

[Kain]

Out of curiosity, what was that whole thing with the learning skills? Something about them being removed a while back with the skill points refunded? Or has that opportunity expired?
I am thinking of playing EVE for a bit again (once I remember my account info, including which email address I used...). How many skill points can I expect to have free, considering I had all learning skills to 5?

[halbarad]

Out of curiosity, what was that whole thing with the learning skills? Something about them being removed a while back with the skill points refunded? Or has that opportunity expired?
I am thinking of playing EVE for a bit again (once I remember my account info, including which email address I used...). How many skill points can I expect to have free, considering I had all learning skills to 5?

If you had them all to 5, it's about 2mil I believe (maybe a bit more).

They were refunded on everyone, subbed or not, and will be sitting there waiting to be applied to any skills you want.

[Spambot5546]

So I guess your character keeps training after your account goes inactive. Reactivated my account to find that I had finished Min Cruiser V.

Oh yeah, I'm EVEing again. If you're in Syndicate there's a contract with all my old junk if anyone would be so kind as to buy it. I think it's pretty fairly priced.

[BlackSails]

So I guess your character keeps training after your account goes inactive. Reactivated my account to find that I had finished Min Cruiser V.

Oh yeah, I'm EVEing again. If you're in Syndicate there's a contract with all my old junk if anyone would be so kind as to buy it. I think it's pretty fairly priced.

Currently, it trains for 3 days after subscription lapses, but in the past, it just kept training

[halbarad]

So I guess your character keeps training after your account goes inactive. Reactivated my account to find that I had finished Min Cruiser V.

Oh yeah, I'm EVEing again. If you're in Syndicate there's a contract with all my old junk if anyone would be so kind as to buy it. I think it's pretty fairly priced.

What sort of junk and how much? I've got some stuff I need to collect in syndicate anyway.

[Spambot5546]

I'm asking 250m. Notable things are a Guardian and a hurricane, both fitted and rigged, a Tengu subsystem, and a low-grade Snake implant. Based on a quick look at the market I'm pretty sure those things are worth the asking price, and beyond that you get whatever modules I had in my inventory. Nothing particularly valuable, just stuff I don't have the means to haul.