## 4-dimensional game?

Of the Tabletop, and other, lesser varieties.

Moderators: SecondTalon, Moderators General, Prelates

M.qrius
Rainbow Brite
Posts: 519
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2007 12:54 am UTC
Location: Rainbow's end
Contact:

### 4-dimensional game?

I just had a thought, that a 4-dimensional game would prove to be an interesting investigation in whether you can get used to 4d. I'm thinking about a 'simple' thing like a racing game (on your own, so time trial or something).
I've been looking around, but couldn't find anything of the sorts. Would it be a viable idea?

Some thoughts:
In 4d, gravity is still just in 1 direction.
Would you miss info because the world is mapped onto 2d instead of 3d? 4d beings would probably map the world on 3d with their eyes.
Would you interpret it as 3d areas stacked behind each other? If I imagine playing 4d tic tac toe, I have 3 blocks of 3d tic tac toe... (But 3+d tic tac toe is guaranteed win for first player anyway)

Berengal
Superabacus Mystic of the First Rank
Posts: 2707
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 5:51 am UTC
Location: Bergen, Norway
Contact:

### Re: 4-dimensional game?

Racing games are highly 4d anyway, since time is such an important factor. Now, if we're talking 4 spacial dimentions, then things get a little more complicated.

Information is always lost when flattening a dimention. A sphere projected onto a 2d surface will always look like a circle to an objective observer (one can fool the brain by various, obvious methods like shading etc.) The problem with 4d is that us humans aren't used to viewing 4d objects, and thus it's impossible to use clever tricks to make us think a 3d object is 4d. A 4d sphere (hypersphere? I don't know the jargon here) will look like a 3d tube when flattened, and no amount of shading can make us think it's otherwise. I'm not saying such a game wouldn't be feasable, but for those of us not yet initiated into the secrets of 4d envisioning it would be rather freaky at first.

Mind you, it would probably be a rather interesting game if you could move on all four axises (up-down, left-right, forwards-backwards, ana-kata (Oh, how I've longed to use those terms)). One way to do it could be colours representing the fourth dimention, as I've tried to explain it to other people a couple of times before (Nevermind that googling for ana kata turns up a paper doing the exact same thing. I was onto this way before him!), but that would sort of ruin the illusion of the fourth dimention being a spatial one.

It'd be interesting to see if this is feasable. I for one like the idea, have thought of something somewhat similar in the past (not a racing game, but rather a puzzle game), but I've no idea how to project 4d to 3d (nor am I really that good at projecting 3d to 2d either, or at least the program's I'm working on to do that indicate).
It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students who are motivated by money: As potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration.

eternauta3k
Posts: 519
Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 12:19 am UTC
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina

### Re: 4-dimensional game?

Try to make a sketch of what it'd look like
VectorZero wrote:It takes a real man to impact his own radius

M.qrius
Rainbow Brite
Posts: 519
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2007 12:54 am UTC
Location: Rainbow's end
Contact:

### Re: 4-dimensional game?

I disagree that a 4d sphere would always look like a tube. For example, if you have a solid hypercube, it wouldn't look like a cube. A 2d being would see 2 sides of a square (1 for x, 1 for y), a 3d being can see 3 sides of a cube (1 for x, 1 for y, 1 for z), and if I'm not mistaken a 4d being can see 4 cubes of a hypercube (1 for x, 1 for y, 1 for z and 1 for w).
To someone who wouldn't know what he was looking at, it would probably look like a partially see-through combination of cubes. See also this writeup which I wrote some time in the past. (For easily-bored people, scroll down to the picture which is actually not quite a hypercube.)

As for projecting 4d to lower, I'm not quite sure what it would look like either. That doesn't mean that it's impossible to code. It's just coding a normal x/y/z viewer from scratch, except you now have x/y/z/w. You don't have to be able to visualize is to be able to code it (Although it would help with bughunting). The mathematics aren't that hard, just non-intuitive.

Maybe I'll have a go at drawing a bit later, but it's quite hard...

Edit: Oh and to the first bit of text you find when you google ana kata: in lineland, you would be able to see the point, even though it has no height and width. We can see everything, and we don't have any 4th dimension width either. 2d people would be able to see stuff even though they have no thickness.
He makes some valid points otherwise, about being able to drink wine out of a bottle without opening it and such, but I don't like that he involves 'planes' in religion. It doesn't add much to the discussion of the abstract. I also don't think colors are a good analogy, because it doesn't really show the idea of a spatial 4th dimension.

Avram
Posts: 229
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 11:57 am UTC
Location: Edmonton

### Re: 4-dimensional game?

I had this idea a while back as well. I envisioned an FPS where moving in the 4th dimension would warp the environment. I don't know jack about geometry though, so I don't know what it would really look like or how it might work.

I think a game based on non-euclidean geometry would also be a great idea.

M.qrius
Rainbow Brite
Posts: 519
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2007 12:54 am UTC
Location: Rainbow's end
Contact:

### Re: 4-dimensional game?

Warping the environment is a nice idea as well, but it still only shows 3 dimensions. You can't see anyone approaching from the 4th dimension.

Portal has some form of wrapping, which might count as non-euclidean geometry...

Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:58 am UTC

### Re: 4-dimensional game?

What if a first-person-shooter engine is used with this kind of game, which recycles its own time dimension:
Cursor*10
I don't think that would count as true 4D because time only goes cylindrically, like on a phonograph; in all other ways it would be a 3D game. I still think it would be fun, though.

Another thought:
The thing that defines 3D games is the geometry; with 4 dimensions, excluding time, the level geometry as we perceive it in 3D would have exist in every shape simultaneously. Change in position with respect to time, d<x,y,z>/dt, is velocity. Change in geometry (or position of geometry points) with respect to the extra dimension, d<x,y,z>/dw, would represent the rate at which the geometry changes as the player travels along the w axis. Thus, the entire level geometry would be a set of functions with respect to w. (I think I'm recycling time again... Oh well.) This could be tricky with moving brushes like doors and elevators, because their geometry would have to be defined as a function of not one but two independent variables. Vision would also be quite tricky to implement with 4 dimensions, because the player would have to see in each direction of the extra dimension. Perhaps if the background is black; the entire level within the present coordinate of w is rendered in a monochrome wireframe, in green; geometry as close to the player as the HUD is rendered #00FF00, while the geometry at the edge of the player's vision is rendered #000100; geometry in the positive w direction is rendered #AaBbCc, such that:
Aa = 0;
Bb + Cc = k1 * ( ( geometry.x - player.x )2 + ( geometry.y - player.y )2 + ( geometry.z - player.z )2 + ( geometry.w - player.w )2 )-0.5
and
Cc = k2 / ( geometry.w - player.w )

Similarly, geometry in the negative w direction is rendered #AaBbCc, such that:
Cc = 0;
Aa + Bb = k1 * ( ( player.x - geometry.x )2 + ( player.y - geometry.y )2 + ( player.z - geometry.z )2 + ( player.w - geometry.w )2 )-0.5
and
Aa = k2 / ( player.w - geometry.w )

In other words, everything is rendered in wireframes, the background is black, the player will see the current-w-coordinate geometry in green, geometry in the positive-w-direction in blue, geometry in negative-w-direction in red, and stuff farther is rendered darker. Alternatively, instead of re-rendering edges for every few intervals, the points of geometry could have a 3D parametric curve (with W as the independent variable, changing color from dark red, to green, to dark blue, with change in the positive w direction) along which the point would appear to flow as the observer traverses along the w axis.

Then there would be the physics interactions... If a ball bounces of a four-dimensional plane, it could get deflected along the w-dimension. Good luck finding it in a 4-dimensional level.

Antimatter Spork
Posts: 679
Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:13 am UTC
Location: The third planet from the sun.

### Re: 4-dimensional game?

There are 4d and 5d Rubix Cubes.
Albert Schweitzer wrote:There are two means of refuge from the misery of life — music and cats.

Rysto
Posts: 1460
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 4:07 am UTC

### Re: 4-dimensional game?

Fonkey wrote:I think a game based on non-euclidean geometry would also be a great idea.

They made that. It's called Super Mario Galaxy.

Avram
Posts: 229
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 11:57 am UTC
Location: Edmonton

### Re: 4-dimensional game?

M.qrius wrote:Warping the environment is a nice idea as well, but it still only shows 3 dimensions. You can't see anyone approaching from the 4th dimension.

I can't really think of a way to do it that wouldn't warp the environment. 3D objects are generally depicted in 2 dimensions as collections of distorted 2D shapes, and as the object moves in 3D space, the shapes warp and move in 2D space.

But I think see what you mean about not being able to see into the 4th dimension. The system I was thinking of would only draw objects that are at the same position on the 4th axis as the player. Hmm, maybe objects could be rendered to the screen with their saturation and luminosity proportional to their proximity to your co-ordinates on the 4th dimensional axis? So someone approaching from the fourth dimension would gradually become brighter and more colorful. Or perhaps distant objects would be blurry, but become more clearly defined as they move closer.

On second thought, that would be really messy. A 4th dimension radar on your HUD, maybe?

lowbart
Posts: 668
Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2007 10:00 pm UTC
Location: northeastern USA
Contact:

### Re: 4-dimensional game?

Berengal wrote: ana-kata (Oh, how I've longed to use those terms)

I remember that book! The boy who reversed himself? Is that what it was called?
...a fish called the Henamo grunter, named because it makes grunting noises from its swim bladder.

Freakish
Posts: 909
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:47 am UTC
Contact:

### Re: 4-dimensional game?

There are already a few 4d games. Time Shift and Blinx come to mind.
Freakish Inc. We completely understand the public’s concern about futuristic robots feeding on the human population

M.qrius
Rainbow Brite
Posts: 519
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2007 12:54 am UTC
Location: Rainbow's end
Contact:

### Re: 4-dimensional game?

Freakish wrote:There are already a few 4d games. Time Shift and Blinx come to mind.

Please read the thread. I'm not talking about time as a fourth dimension. By your definition every 3d game is 4d, whether you can move backwards in time or only move forwards.

Berengal
Superabacus Mystic of the First Rank
Posts: 2707
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 5:51 am UTC
Location: Bergen, Norway
Contact:

### Re: 4-dimensional game?

And as I previously mentioned, most racing games depend on the most often experienced fourth dimention known as time. This is about 4 spacial dimentions, however.

I liked the Prince of Persia time rewinding much better than Time Shift's anyway.

Edit: Ninja'd
It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students who are motivated by money: As potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration.

Narsil
Posts: 2995
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:59 pm UTC
Location: Columbus.

### Re: 4-dimensional game?

In the spirit of understanding a 4th dimension, could it be made up of any combination of higher dimensions?

Example, 2s can be either x & y, x & z, or y & z axes. Not sure that it would affect the game in any meaningful way, just curious.
Spoiler:
EsotericWombat wrote:MORE JUNK THAN YOUR BODY HAS ROOM FOR

Mother Superior wrote:What's he got that I dont?
*sees Narsil's sig*
Oh... that.

Freakish
Posts: 909
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:47 am UTC
Contact:

### Re: 4-dimensional game?

M.qrius wrote:
Freakish wrote:There are already a few 4d games. Time Shift and Blinx come to mind.

Please read the thread. I'm not talking about time as a fourth dimension. By your definition every 3d game is 4d, whether you can move backwards in time or only move forwards.

I read the thread before posting, but time is the only way you going to get a 4d game. Anything else well only ever appear as 2/3d, however adding control over time highlights the dimension.
Freakish Inc. We completely understand the public’s concern about futuristic robots feeding on the human population

Matthias
Posts: 275
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:55 am UTC
Location: Out of context, probably.
Contact:

### Re: 4-dimensional game?

Maybe something akin to Soul Reaver or Prey, with a second world as an overlay to the regular one, with shadowy glimpses of whichever world you're not in? I think that counts as 4d. I mean, I know it's not exactly what you had in mind--you're really only taking a small step ana or kata--but there ya go.
Love may be blind, but lust has x-ray vision.
Avatar shamelessly plucked from PMOG.

Also, it turns out I'm not dead--I'm just a right bastard who disappears from the internet for months at a time every so often.

M.qrius
Rainbow Brite
Posts: 519
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2007 12:54 am UTC
Location: Rainbow's end
Contact:

### Re: 4-dimensional game?

Freakish wrote:I read the thread before posting, but time is the only way you going to get a 4d game. Anything else well only ever appear as 2/3d, however adding control over time highlights the dimension.

A first person shooter doesn't look like 2d to me. If you map a 4d area onto a 2d plane, it won't look 2d or 3d. For example, we view a solid cube like this:

Code: Select all

`     E_______ F     /      /|    /      / |  D ______ C |   |      |  |G   |      | /   |      |/   A|______|B`

It's missing the H point.
A 4d being would see a solid hypercube like this:

Code: Select all

`                                            EEE  EE                                                     FFF  FF                                            E                                                           F                                              EE                                                          FF                                               E                                                           F                                              EEE                                                         F                                             ##############################################################                                         ################################################################                                        ####                                                       ######                                       ####\$                                                      #######                                     ##### \$                                                    #########                                   ######  \$                                                   #####\$ ###                                  #### \$   \$                                                 #####\$\$  ###                                ##### \$\$   \$                                                #### \$\$   ###                               ####  \$\$    \$                                     CC  CC   ####  \$\$    ###                              ####   \$     \$                                    C        ####   \$\$    ###                  DD  DD    ####    \$      \$                                    C      #####   \$\$     ###                  D D     #####    \$\$      \$                                    C     #####   \$\$      ###                  D D    ####     \$\$       \$                                     CC #####    \$\$       ###                  DD   ################################################################      \$\$       ###                      ################################################################      \$\$        ###                     ####       \$          \$                                     ####      \$\$         ###                     ###       \$           \$                                    #####     \$\$          ###                    ####      \$\$           \$                                   ######    \$\$           ###                   ####       \$            \$                                  #######    \$\$           ###                  ####       \$             \$                                  #######   \$\$            ###                  ###       \$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$########\$\$\$\$             ###                 ####     \$\$ \$ EEE         \$                                ####  ###\$\$\$\$ FFF         ###                ####    \$\$\$  \$ E           \$                               ####   ###\$  \$ F           ###               ####    \$\$    \$ EE          \$                               ###    ###   \$ FF          ###              ####   \$\$\$     \$ E           \$                              ###    \$###   \$ F           ###              ###   \$\$       \$ EEE         \$                             ###   \$\$\$###   \$ F           ###             ####  \$\$        \$             \$                            ####  \$\$  ###   \$             ###            #### \$\$          \$             \$                           #### \$\$\$   ###   \$             ###           #####\$\$           \$             \$                          #### \$\$     ###   \$             ###           ####\$             \$             \$                         #### \$\$      ###   \$             ###          ####\$              \$             \$                         ###\$\$        ###   \$             ###         ####                \$             \$                        ####\$         ###   \$             ###        ###############################################################  CC       ###   \$             ###       ###############################################################  C         ###   \$             ###        ##############################################################  C         ###   \$             ###        ### DD               \$             \$                       ###  C         ###   \$             ###        ### D D              \$             \$                       ###   CC       ###   \$             ###        ### D D              \$             \$                       ###            ###   \$             ###        ### DD               \$             \$                       ###            ###   \$             ###  GG  GG      ###                  \$             \$                       ###            ###   \$             ### G       ###                  \$             \$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$###\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$###\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$### G GG      ###                  \$            \$\$  H  H  HH             ###            ###   \$            #### G  G      ###                  \$            \$\$  H  H                 ###            ###   \$          #####   GG      ###                  \$           \$\$   HHHH                 ###            ###   \$         #####          ###                  \$          \$\$    H  H                 ###            ###   \$       #######          ###                  \$         \$\$     H  H                 ###            ###   \$      #######           ###                  \$         \$                           ###            ###   \$    ########            ###                  \$        \$\$                           ###            ###   \$   ########             ###                  \$       \$\$                            ###            ###   \$ ####  ####             ###                  \$       \$                             ###            ###   #####  ####              ###                  \$     \$\$                              ###     BBB  BB###  #####  ####               ###                  \$     \$\$                              ###     B  B   ### ####   ####                ###                  \$    \$\$                               ###     BBB    #######    ###                 ###                  \$   \$\$                                ###     B  B   ##### \$   ####                 ###                  \$   \$                                 ###     BBB    ###   \$  ###                   ###                  \$  \$                                  ###           ####   \$ ####                   ###                  \$ \$                                   ###          ####    \$ ###                    ###                  \$\$\$                                   ###         ####     \$####                    ###                  \$\$                                    ###         ###      ####                     ###                  \$                                     ###        ####     ####                      ###                \$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$\$###\$\$\$\$\$\$\$####\$\$\$\$#####  GG                     ###               \$\$  H  H                                 ###      ####    ####   G                      ###              \$\$   H  H                                 ###      ###    ####    G GG                    ###            \$\$     HHHH                                 ###     ####  ####      G  G                    ###          \$\$       H  H                                 ###    #### #####        GG                     ###         \$\$        H  H                                 ###    ### ####                               ###        \$\$                                              ###   ### ####                                ###      \$\$                                                ###  ########                                 ###    \$\$\$                                                 ### #######                                   ###   \$\$                                                   #########                                     ### \$\$\$                                                    ########                                      ###\$\$                                                      ######                                        ################################################################                                         ###############################################################                                           A                                                         BBB                                                A A                                                        B  B                                             AAAAA                                                       BBB                                              A   A                                                       B  B                                           A     A                                                      BBB`

Note that this is not a hypercube. it's missing the point A' (More explanation on why is in the link I posted earlier)
So it's just not the same, and it wouldn't play the same either. I'm not sure if it would be playable. It might be.

Narsil wrote:In the spirit of understanding a 4th dimension, could it be made up of any combination of higher dimensions?

Example, 2s can be either x & y, x & z, or y & z axes. Not sure that it would affect the game in any meaningful way, just curious.

For it to be made up of a combination of directions, we'd need to have 5 or more dimensions. We don't actually have that, so we can't take 4 of that. Combining 2 or 3 of our dimensions won't create a 4th, since we need 4 lines which are all perpendicular too all of the others as axes. This is only possible in 4 or higher dimensions.

For the record, I think of 2 dimensions not in the way as outlined by flatland, but like a plane with a width and a height. This has the added value that you can add gravity to your 2d world without breaking it. (See this for more on what effects this would have.)

Marbas
Posts: 1169
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2007 4:01 am UTC
Location: Down down down at the bottom of the sea
Contact:

### Re: 4-dimensional game?

Do you have to make the 4th dimension visible on a single screen? Why not just it's effects? Or better yet, why not two screens? You could model the fourth dimension abstractly via computer programs, and give the user the ability to move through chunks of the 4th axis using a button command, the effects of this could then be observed by the player witnessing what happens to the 3-dimensional shapes in front of them. 4-dimensional walls and such could be modeled by something which prevents the player from using said command. Maybe some sort of box will help the user see what's on the 4th axis while omitting another one too.

Hell, an axis switch command would pretty cool as well, a sort of swap-out feature where one is moved to the HUD box and another is placed in front of you. The game would have to be pretty simple to compensate for this, but if you make the learning curve gentle enough I could see things getting complicated and interesting.
Jahoclave wrote:Do you have any idea how much more fun the holocaust is with "Git er Done" as the catch phrase?

Berengal
Superabacus Mystic of the First Rank
Posts: 2707
Joined: Thu May 24, 2007 5:51 am UTC
Location: Bergen, Norway
Contact:

### Re: 4-dimensional game?

Marbas wrote:Do you have to make the 4th dimension visible on a single screen? Why not just it's effects? Or better yet, why not two screens? You could model the fourth dimension abstractly via computer programs, and give the user the ability to move through chunks of the 4th axis using a button command, the effects of this could then be observed by the player witnessing what happens to the 3-dimensional shapes in front of them. 4-dimensional walls and such could be modeled by something which prevents the player from using said command. Maybe some sort of box will help the user see what's on the 4th axis while omitting another one too.

Hell, an axis switch command would pretty cool as well, a sort of swap-out feature where one is moved to the HUD box and another is placed in front of you. The game would have to be pretty simple to compensate for this, but if you make the learning curve gentle enough I could see things getting complicated and interesting.

I've thought about this as well, and it does seem to be able to work, but only if the player exists in 3d pluss a point in the 4th dimention (with optional "flipping" of dimentions). This is basically what Soul Reaver and Prey did, only they only had two levels on the fourth dimention, not a continuum.

It doesn't quite work of the player is also fully 4d, though.
It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students who are motivated by money: As potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration.

liquidpaper
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:22 am UTC

### Re: 4-dimensional game?

you could simply use hue (colours) to represent the place in the 4th dimension and transparency to show how close something is. the radar would have to be 3d and you could simply add just two keys to allow you to 'slide' through the 4th dimension. the ojects would need to be textured in order to keep the 3d look on the 2d screen. i think it would be really cool. the hardest part would be making the 4d map, since adding another dimension multiplies the size by however many points are in the new dimension. there would be many obstructions or it would be extremely difficult to follow something. while following something the hardest part would be to keep track of which colours were in what direction, so if the object you were following started turning green and fading you would need to be aware of what colour you were in and in what direction green was.

Brooks
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2007 6:16 am UTC
Location: Seattle, WA
Contact:

### Re: 4-dimensional game?

As stereoscopic displays become more commonplace, doesn't this get more feasible? Representing 4D in 3D has to be more intuitively grasp-able than representing 4D in 2D, right?

Eschatokyrios
Posts: 244
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2006 6:49 pm UTC

### Re: 4-dimensional game?

Metroid Prime 2, and any other game where you can move between multiple worlds is a 4d game, albeit with an extremely short 4th axis (there are only two occupyable positions on the 4th axis, dark world or light world). But you could conceivably have more. Add another "world" that you can shift to and that's 3 points. Or, extend the geometry of the game as non-discretely as possible in an analogous fashion to the light and dark worlds. You could move your character around normally with the control stick, and, say, hold L-shoulder and R-shoulder to shift in one direction or the other along the 4th axis.
კაცი ბჭობდა, ღმერთი იცინოდაო
k'atsi bch'obda, ghmerti itsinodao
"Man was discussing, God was laughing"
-Georgian proverb

zenten
Posts: 3799
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 7:42 am UTC

### Re: 4-dimensional game?

Berengal wrote:
It doesn't quite work of the player is also fully 4d, though.

I would assume any 4d programmer could do a better job with that than any of us.

SecondTalon
SexyTalon
Posts: 26516
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 2:10 pm UTC
Location: Louisville, Kentucky, USA, Mars. HA!
Contact:

### Re: 4-dimensional game?

Anyone else thinking of something like Cursor*10?

Basic idea of that game is you control the action for a set amount of time... when time runs out, you start over controlling a second character while the first does whatever you did the first time around.

Repeat.. repeat... I think this game gives you 16 chances to work with yourself to get it right. Anyway, could craft a time-traveling game based on something like that.. you have to travel to 10:15am, enter the control room and hold the Open Door button for enough time to allow you to travel back to 10:15am and walk through the door....
heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.
heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.

thedufer
Posts: 263
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:11 am UTC
Location: Northern VA (not to be confused with VA)
Contact:

### Re: 4-dimensional game?

SecondTalon wrote:Anyone else thinking of something like Cursor*10?

Basic idea of that game is you control the action for a set amount of time... when time runs out, you start over controlling a second character while the first does whatever you did the first time around.

Repeat.. repeat... I think this game gives you 16 chances to work with yourself to get it right. Anyway, could craft a time-traveling game based on something like that.. you have to travel to 10:15am, enter the control room and hold the Open Door button for enough time to allow you to travel back to 10:15am and walk through the door....

Its 10 chances (thus Cursor*10), and 16 levels. And I believe its already been mentioned in this thread.

SecondTalon
SexyTalon
Posts: 26516
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 2:10 pm UTC
Location: Louisville, Kentucky, USA, Mars. HA!
Contact:

### Re: 4-dimensional game?

D'oh
heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.
heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.

Spoffin
Posts: 509
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:51 am UTC

### Re: 4-dimensional game?

There's a rubix cube in the 4th dimension. God knows how that works.
The thing to remember about Spoffin is that he's playing by rules no one else understands

4=5
Posts: 2073
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 3:02 am UTC

### Re: 4-dimensional game?

you use 3d glasses to get the 3 dimentional plain that you will represent the four dimentional objects on, it's actually fairly easy to program the distortions

liquidpaper
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:22 am UTC

### Re: 4-dimensional game?

Spoffin wrote:There's a rubix cube in the 4th dimension. God knows how that works.

there isn't a rubix cube in the forth or fifth dimension it is simply a 4x4x4 rubix cube (or 5x5x5 rubix cube). it still has only 3 dimensions.

Spoffin
Posts: 509
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:51 am UTC

### Re: 4-dimensional game?

liquidpaper wrote:
Spoffin wrote:There's a rubix cube in the 4th dimension. God knows how that works.

there isn't a rubix cube in the forth or fifth dimension it is simply a 4x4x4 rubix cube (or 5x5x5 rubix cube). it still has only 3 dimensions.

Now, if I thought that a 4x4x4 rubix cube was a 4 dimensional rubix cube, I'd be incredibly stupid.

I admit I should have made more clear that its a computer model and not a physical object. But I did think we were talking about computer games

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubik%27s_ ... e_software
The thing to remember about Spoffin is that he's playing by rules no one else understands

meoiswa
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:42 am UTC

### Re: 4-dimensional game?

There IS a 4 spatial, 10 degrees of freedom game, its called Anachron and its available for Linux and Mac OS X, i dont know if its available for windows. This is an extract from the game's manual.
It is quite playable and interesting, but takes some time to actually understand "WTH!!!!" is happening

Welcome to Adanaxis! The world’s first real-time shooter in four spatial dimensions. The game world has the usual three dimensions (left/right, up/down and forward/back) plus another new direction in space. We don’t have this dimension in our physical world but it’s possible to simulate a fourth dimension, so this is what Adanaxis does. The game takes a while to learn, but you can soon become a natural. It’s a bit like learning to play a first person shooter for the first time, and once you get it, you might not want to go back…
[...]
Technical Details
Instead of the usual six degrees of freedom in 3D there are ten in 4D; four directions and six rotations. Three directions are mapped onto the screen just like 3Dm and these are chosen so that the x axis is left/right, the y axis is up/down, and the w axis is away from you into the screen. There’s no direction left to use for the z axis, so the game represents z in three ways:
• Tinting the object red (negative z) or green (positive z) to show where it is in z.
• Using the three-dot markers to show where the object is in x, y and z.
• Fading objects as they move away from the view axis in z.
There’s also another reason for the last one, as it makes the z axis more consistent with x and y. You can’t see objects with large x or y values (compared to w, their distance away from you) because they go off the screen, and the fading does the same for z. The fading essentially gives you a viewing angle in the zw plane that is roughly the same as that in xw and yw.

SlyReaper
inflatable
Posts: 8015
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 11:09 pm UTC
Location: Bristol, Old Blighty

### Re: 4-dimensional game?

I'm pretty sure there are computer programs modelling 3x3x3x3 and 3x3x3x3x3 rubix cubes. Obviously such a thing could never exist physically, but it's doable on a computer. I don't think anyone has ever solved the 5D one.

What would Baron Harkonnen do?

SWGlassPit
Posts: 312
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:34 pm UTC
Location: Houston, TX
Contact:

### Re: 4-dimensional game?

meoiswa wrote:There IS a 4 spatial, 10 degrees of freedom game, its called Anachron and its available for Linux and Mac OS X, i dont know if its available for windows. This is an extract from the game's manual.
It is quite playable and interesting, but takes some time to actually understand "WTH!!!!" is happening

Welcome to Adanaxis! The world’s first real-time shooter in four spatial dimensions. The game world has the usual three dimensions (left/right, up/down and forward/back) plus another new direction in space. We don’t have this dimension in our physical world but it’s possible to simulate a fourth dimension, so this is what Adanaxis does. The game takes a while to learn, but you can soon become a natural. It’s a bit like learning to play a first person shooter for the first time, and once you get it, you might not want to go back…
[...]
Technical Details
Instead of the usual six degrees of freedom in 3D there are ten in 4D; four directions and six rotations. Three directions are mapped onto the screen just like 3Dm and these are chosen so that the x axis is left/right, the y axis is up/down, and the w axis is away from you into the screen. There’s no direction left to use for the z axis, so the game represents z in three ways:
• Tinting the object red (negative z) or green (positive z) to show where it is in z.
• Using the three-dot markers to show where the object is in x, y and z.
• Fading objects as they move away from the view axis in z.
There’s also another reason for the last one, as it makes the z axis more consistent with x and y. You can’t see objects with large x or y values (compared to w, their distance away from you) because they go off the screen, and the fading does the same for z. The fading essentially gives you a viewing angle in the zw plane that is roughly the same as that in xw and yw.

Came for this, leaving happy. It's in the Fedora repositories and it can be found at http://www.mushware.com/
Up in space is a laboratory the size of a football field zipping along at 7 km/s. It's my job to keep it safe.

Erdös number: 5

Josephine
Posts: 2142
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2009 5:53 am UTC

### Re: 4-dimensional game?

Belial wrote:Listen, what I'm saying is that he committed a felony with a zoo animal.

Not A Raptor
Posts: 417
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2008 4:06 pm UTC

### Re: 4-dimensional game?

SlyReaper wrote:I'm pretty sure there are computer programs modelling 3x3x3x3 and 3x3x3x3x3 rubix cubes. Obviously such a thing could never exist physically, but it's doable on a computer. I don't think anyone has ever solved the 5D one.
O RLY?
Van wrote:I like simple games.

Like Wizardry.

WARNING: Is acting like NaR.
Kellsbells: NAR is a sillypants
Not_A_Raptor: :p
Kellsbells: That is my expert assessment

_MC_
Posts: 105
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 6:35 am UTC

### Re: 4-dimensional game?

I imagine a fourth spacial dimension as being an infinite set of "parallel" universes in the same 3d space. However, since we're not talking about Star Trek and instead about continuous functions in four dimensions, the transition as you move along the fourth spacial axis would make objects appear to fade in or out as you move towards or away from them in 4d space. Similar to how distant objects appear small or unclear, objects approaching along the fourth dimension would seem to fade in until they have the same fourth-dimensional position as you do.

*EDIT*

Looks like people beat me to it.

wst
Posts: 2613
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:06 am UTC

### Re: 4-dimensional game?

Firstly - As much as I understand of 4 dimensions is basically from this and this will be referred to in this post

In the above video, the square and the apple can see inside flatlanders and closed rooms when the apple pushes the square into the third dimension. When the apple intersects flatland, only that immediate slice can be seen.

So, I think, as it's going to be brain-breakingly-impossible to render (imho, or at least to view), dimensions will be more like, seeing through things. As you travel through the 4th dimension, objects without the same co-ordinates in this 4th dimension get less visible.

Think back to the video-flatland, and the way the square appears in mid-air when he returns from 'updown'. This effect, but in three dimensions.

This means that you have a problem - infinite universes, or something. How will you ever meet anyone else and shoot them?

1) Heat/air currents, gravity, maybe minor optical lensing effects - these might be able to propagate through the 4th dimension somewhat and lead a 3d-clue to someone's location. Just move yourself and your weapon in the 4th dimension to the same co-ordinates and fire

Etcetc. I hope I've sparked some useful thoughts.
Anything I said pre-2014 that you want to quote me on, just run it past me to check I still agree with myself.

TheAmazingRando
Posts: 2308
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:58 am UTC
Location: San Diego, CA

### Re: 4-dimensional game?

I also had the fade in/out dimension shifting theory, but I realized this is still pretty limited as far as 4-dimensional motion is concerned. It's effectively the same as taking cross-sections of a 3-dimensional object in order to represent it in two dimensions. And it makes pretty good sense, intuitively. But if you wanted true 4-dimensional gameplay, you'd need to include rotations. And I'm not sure there's a way to do that that would make any intuitive sense to the player. I've looked at 3-dimensional projections of them while reading about what it is I'm seeing, and I still can't seem to understand them.

Toeofdoom
The (Male) Skeleton Guitarist
Posts: 3446
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:06 am UTC
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

### Re: 4-dimensional game?

Heh, a guy at my uni made a game with what he calls 4D space... I personally think it's just non-euclidean and uses a bunch of portals. Really good game anyway, but not 4D.

Anyway, you could definitely make it, but I don't know why anyone would want to work with 4 dimensional rotation matrices. Quaternions apparently only work in 3 and 7 dimensions, as well.

And I'm pretty sure no matter what section of a hypersphere is overlapping our dimension, you'll see a sphere. Think about it: You'll never see anything but a circle if you take a planar cross-section of a regular sphere.
Hawknc wrote:Gotta love our political choices here - you can pick the unionised socially conservative party, or the free-market even more socially conservative party. Oh who to vote for…I don't know, I think I'll just flip a coin and hope it explodes and kills me.

Website