Guitar Hero

Of the Tabletop, and other, lesser varieties.

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EvanED
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Re: This is just to be an asshole to people playing Guitar Hero.

Postby EvanED » Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:22 am UTC

DYRE wrote:
EvanED wrote:...(NOTE: this is not on GH2. I don't have any consoles, so imported the songs from GH2 and hacked them into GH3. It's possible that GH3 changed the timings to make that more possible...

Yep. Hammer Ons and Pull Offs were changed a lot for GH3.
Not to take anything away from that accomplishment, though. It's still impressive.

I think they are pretty accurate.

HOPOs in GH1 and GH2 are done through timing rules only. "If this kind of note occurs within such a time of this other kind of note, the second is a HOPO." (I don't know what the exact rules are, but they are fixed by the engine, not the song.) GH3 allows (read: makes) the song specify what notes are HOPO, which allows them to do things like they do in the GH3 songs. But you could make the song specify that the notes that would have been HOPO in GH2 are HOPO in GH3, and it would behave the same.

So the question is how good the import engine is, and it seems pretty good. It's definitely better than the Frets on Fire HOPO engine, even with RF-Mod. (Where "better" = "more like GH2")

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Re: This is just to be an asshole to people playing Guitar Hero.

Postby Rodan » Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:33 am UTC

I'm annoyed with Dragonforce.
I'm playing on normal, right?
I beat fucking Satan at guitar, first try.
I'm feeling too awesome for words.
Then the credits, and I fail the song miserably, not that it matters.
And I realize my crappiness, and am saddened.

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Re: This is just to be an asshole to people playing Guitar Hero.

Postby Jack21222 » Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:03 pm UTC

Rodan wrote:I'm annoyed with Dragonforce.
I'm playing on normal, right?
I beat fucking Satan at guitar, first try.
I'm feeling too awesome for words.
Then the credits, and I fail the song miserably, not that it matters.
And I realize my crappiness, and am saddened.


That looks like bad poetry. :-p

I've given up on GH3 for now. Stuck on Raining Blood and Number of the Beast. I know I can do NotB, but the notes come so fast and steady that my left hand starts cramping up and losing its grip on the buttons. I can beat Cliffs of Dover without star power, and I can usually beat One, though the solo still trips me up sometimes.

I feel like I've kinda hit a wall in my skills.
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Re: This is just to be an asshole to people playing Guitar Hero.

Postby That_one_guy » Fri Mar 28, 2008 6:24 pm UTC

After beating all but the last few songs on hard on GH3, I decided to finish what I started and beat TTFAF on Medium. I actually had a pretty hard time. Oh, and does anyone find it funny that I beat Jordan with 93% on Hard, and can't even get 10% on Hard TTFAF?
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Re: This is just to be an asshole to people playing Guitar Hero.

Postby Sir_Elderberry » Fri Mar 28, 2008 11:24 pm UTC

Rodan wrote:I'm annoyed with Dragonforce.
I'm playing on normal, right?
I beat fucking Satan at guitar, first try.
I'm feeling too awesome for words.
Then the credits, and I fail the song miserably, not that it matters.
And I realize my crappiness, and am saddened.


I don't play guitar hero, but feeling too awesome for words is general an emotion that Dragonforce helps with, for me.
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Re: This is just to be an asshole to people playing Guitar Hero.

Postby DYRE » Sun Mar 30, 2008 1:06 pm UTC

EvanED wrote:
DYRE wrote:Yep. Hammer Ons and Pull Offs were changed a lot for GH3.
Not to take anything away from that accomplishment, though. It's still impressive.

I think they are pretty accurate.

HOPOs in GH1 and GH2 are done through timing rules only. "If this kind of note occurs within such a time of this other kind of note, the second is a HOPO." (I don't know what the exact rules are, but they are fixed by the engine, not the song.) GH3 allows (read: makes) the song specify what notes are HOPO, which allows them to do things like they do in the GH3 songs. But you could make the song specify that the notes that would have been HOPO in GH2 are HOPO in GH3, and it would behave the same.

Actually, in GH3, if there's a long note (like, a measure or more, even) followed by a HOPO, you can hit the first, then immediately hold down the button for the next note. Even if you're holding it down for several seconds before the HOPO note comes, you'll still hit it when it does. In GH2 this doesn't work. This is easily demonstrated by playing Free Bird. The notes in the intro are HOPOs. Strum one, then immediately HOPO to the next one. When the note comes, you'll miss it. Still, in practice, this is a lot less of a difference than I'm making it out to be, since usually hard HOPO parts are fast.

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Re: This is just to be an asshole to people playing Guitar Hero.

Postby Miles Invictus » Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:24 am UTC

At least TTFAF isn't like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kzzeDkaNnI

Speaking of HOPOs...does anyone else think that the ones in Rock Band are a bit screwy?

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Re: This is just to be an asshole to people playing Guitar Hero.

Postby rrwoods » Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:06 pm UTC

Miles Invictus wrote:At least TTFAF isn't like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kzzeDkaNnI

Speaking of HOPOs...does anyone else think that the ones in Rock Band are a bit screwy?

I feel like maybe you need to be more accurate with hopo's than with strummed notes. This isn't a problem if you're playing the notes right anyway, but if your lag isn't calibrated right then the slight difference might actually matter.
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Clumpy
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Re: This is just to be an asshole to people playing Guitar Hero.

Postby Clumpy » Mon Mar 31, 2008 5:29 pm UTC

I think that one problem with GHIII is that they've made a couple of the songs so difficult that people who are merely "very good" can't build up a reliable strategy to beat them. I no longer have a problem with One or Cliffs of Dover on Expert, because if you pay attention and are reasonably fast you can work up a strategy. The only part on One that gets me is the beginning of the solo with the 3-note runs. I never did get the hang of those. Number of the Beast is beatable, but the consistency of the notes raining down means that maintaining a 5-star combo is a formidable feat.

But Raining Blood's "Mosh 1" and TTFAF are just unfair. I have to be unusually alert, limber and pumped to beat Raining Blood on a bad day, and TTFAF is fun at first, but requires such a level of control that my ever getting really good at it seems unlikely. Admittedly, once you get past the solo the song doesn't get too bad until 70% or so.

Some elements in TTFAF seem random - the song has enough sections of sustained notes designed to fill up your crowd meter, but flubbing up one fast section can put you on a losing path, fast, especially after 70% when you hit the solo. When I beat TTFAF I was having a bad day, and I haven't been able to get through it since. I'm in the annoying position of knowing the exact notes that I need to play, but not being able to train my fingers to move quickly enough.

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Re: This is just to be an asshole to people playing Guitar Hero.

Postby mosc » Mon Mar 31, 2008 6:34 pm UTC

That_one_guy wrote:After beating all but the last few songs on hard on GH3, I decided to finish what I started and beat TTFAF on Medium. I actually had a pretty hard time. Oh, and does anyone find it funny that I beat Jordan with 93% on Hard, and can't even get 10% on Hard TTFAF?

Yes, because Jordan is not that difficult on Hard (in comparison to other songs on hard). Jordan is only more difficult than the rest of the songs on it's difficulty if you play on expert. The solo is so simplified even expert to hard that they're not even comparable (unlike most other songs).

TTFAF on Hard is also really not that bad. You're probably just not that good at "faking it" which is a skill one usually picks up once they are trying to get through expert. There's a little bit of science to what you do when the notes get so fast that you can't keep up. Not playing anything or playing too much can both lead to far more of a drop on your meter than correctly "faking it". The most important part of faking it is getting a good strum speed. Anyway, with better faking skills, you can slide through TTFAF on hard without much meter drop. A good score you will not have gotten but a pass should not be out of reach
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Re: This is just to be an asshole to people playing Guitar Hero.

Postby DYRE » Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:31 pm UTC

Clumpy wrote:But Raining Blood's "Mosh 1" and TTFAF are just unfair...

Although, while TtFaF is full of completely random notes added in'cause the charter was bored, Raining Blood's "Mosh 1" is pretty much the most accurate section of any song in Guitar Hero history. Yeah, that was a bit of an exagerration, but still, it's not like TtFaF, TDWDtG, and other similar songs where the notes are placed almost completely arbitrarily. Plus, there's only one really hard part in it, and they do give you star power before it.
TtFaF's hard part occurs at the very beginning of the song, before you have any chance to get Star Power.

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Re: This is just to be an asshole to people playing Guitar Hero.

Postby mosc » Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:53 pm UTC

it's not like they give you a full bar of SP for raining blood's mosh and they made the SP last only a very short time in that song. The mosh in raining blood is not really the problem, it's the percentage of time you have to play it without SP that causes failures. They should have 1) given a full bar of SP before it and 2) lengthened the length of time that SP would cover to overlap at least 75% of the mosh
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Re: This is just to be an asshole to people playing Guitar Hero.

Postby Clumpy » Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:55 pm UTC

DYRE wrote:Although, while TtFaF is full of completely random notes added in'cause the charter was bored, Raining Blood's "Mosh 1" is pretty much the most accurate section of any song in Guitar Hero history. Yeah, that was a bit of an exagerration, but still, it's not like TtFaF, TDWDtG, and other similar songs where the notes are placed almost completely arbitrarily. Plus, there's only one really hard part in it, and they do give you star power before it.
TtFaF's hard part occurs at the very beginning of the song, before you have any chance to get Star Power.


Hmm. . . I don't think that the star power makes much of a difference. I usually nail the first half of Mosh 1, then lose my beat and fail over the next ten seconds. Activating Star Power would only help you get through the section if you were practically good enough to get through on your own. If I'm having a good day I'll breeze through that section, otherwise it humbles me.

When I talk about TTFAF I'm assuming that people have learned how to finger tap the intro. It's not really reasonable to expect somebody to be able to beat it otherwise (unless you cheat with a rubber band or some such nonsense). And star power wouldn't help you through TTFAF's intro unless you were already very good at it.

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Re: This is just to be an asshole to people playing Guitar Hero.

Postby DYRE » Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:55 pm UTC

Actually, I still can't tap TtFaF's intro, and I can beat it consistently. Although, now I can hit most of it. You don't need to be able to tap it (although it ceratinly helps and makes it easier to hit the two Star Power Phrases and will get you a higher score)

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Re: This is just to be an asshole to people playing Guitar Hero.

Postby Clumpy » Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:48 pm UTC

It's not really a contradiction. If you're good enough to play the intro without tapping it, then I'm sure that you're good enough to beat the rest of the song. I'm not so good at the rest of the song, so I get nearly half of my score just in the intro. Kind of pathetic.

Apparently I lied about Raining Blood - I just decided to go back and play it and I can reliably beat Mosh 1 now. I was going too fast before. Amazing what happens when you come back to it after a couple of weeks. Don't think I'm gonna get better than four star on that one, though. . .

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Re: This is just to be an asshole to people playing Guitar Hero.

Postby DYRE » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:16 am UTC

Yeah, Raining Blood is definately in the top 5 hardest songs to 5-star in the game. Possibly in the series.
Like, the only songs I can think of that are harder are Take This Life, The Way it Ends, and Through the Fire and Flames. Take This Life may possibly be easier, even.

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Re: This is just to be an asshole to people playing Guitar Hero.

Postby mosc » Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:40 am UTC

although I put raining blood at 3rd hardest to just pass ever in Guitar Hero, it would be far lower on my list to 5* (although it's not easy). Granted you have to be able to pass it, but for those who can I don't think 5*s is that bad. The whole second half of the song can be farmed for points.

Obviously Jordan and TTFAF are going to be on the list because they're so damn hard to pass. The rest of the list though would probably be filled with the harder songs from GH2 like misirlou and six which are not horrible to pass but to get a high score (5*) require a great deal of skill. Passing Raining Blood is much harder than Six but for someone who can pass both, I'd wager the multiplier on Raining Blood would generally be higher than six. TTFAF is really really hard to 5* even if you CAN pass it, it's true. The rest are much closer together but I wouldn't put Raining Blood on the list of "very hard to 5*"... only "very hard to pass".

From GH1 (6043 total)
Cowboys From Hell 5*: 951 (16%)
Texas Flood 5*: 972 (16%)
Breaking Wheel 5*: 974 (16%)
Bark At The Moon 5*: 1218 (20%)
Frankenstein 5*s: 1290 (21%)

From GH2 (15885 total)
Six 5*s: 1926 (12%)
Jordan 5*s: 2621 (16%)
Misirlou 5*s: 3514 (22%)
Psychobilly Freakout 5*s: 3758 (24%)
Gemeni 5*s: 4250 (27%)

From GH80s (5291 total)
Play With Me 5*s: 1684 (32%)

From GH3 (13415 total)
Through The Fire And The Flames 5*s: 562 (4%!!!!)
The Way It Ends 5*s: 1217 (9%)
Nothing For Me Here 5*s: 1707 (13%)
Take This Life 5*s: 1971 (15%)
...just because we're discussing it...
Raining Blood 5*: 2259 (17%)

So yes, raining blood is about the 5th hardest song to 5* on GH3 but far from the top 5 overall. I feel the percentages also grow as the game gets older and GH3 is pretty new so it's place in comparison to the others will likely drop. Using this info, I'd say:

Top 5 hardest to 5*:
1) Through The Fire And The Flames (GH3)
2) Six (GH2)
3) Jordan (GH2)
4) The Way It Ends (GH3)
5) Nothing For Me Here (GH3)

Six and Nothing For Me Here are superb examples of songs that aren't too bad to pass but are extremely difficult to milk points out of. I would rank Raining Blood about 14th or so out of the 211 songs in terms of difficulty to 5* series wide
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Re: This is just to be an asshole to people playing Guitar Hero.

Postby DYRE » Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:54 am UTC

Hmm... I definately wasn't thinking about Jordan, 'cause I figured that anyone who can pass it will be able to hit everything out of the solo (and bridge), and so won'r have trouble getting 5 stars if they can pass it. Granted, passing it is very difficult. Also, I wasn't thinking of Nothing for Me Here, even though, now that I think about it, it actually was very difficult. And, as I haven't played very much GH1, I wasn't thinking about those songs much.
So, sure, I suppose you're right.

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Re: This is just to be an asshole to people playing Guitar Hero.

Postby Clumpy » Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:51 pm UTC

Has anybody tried the solo from Because It's Midnite or Play With Me from Rocks the 80s?

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Re: This is just to be an asshole to people playing Guitar Hero.

Postby mosc » Tue Apr 01, 2008 9:30 pm UTC

sure. Both have been FCed actually... The Ballroom Blitz run is actually far harder.

Play with me is practically all one big solo in my mind. I'm also hovering at like 4.9* on it so it's a particularly frustrating one (stopping me from 5*ing all of 80s on expert). Because it's midnight is just a stupidly hard solo in what would otherwise be the easiest expert song ever. It's also a stupid song that should never have been put in anyway. I just fudge the solo and get 5.9* like everyone else.
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Re: This is just to be an asshole to people playing Guitar Hero.

Postby Clumpy » Wed Apr 02, 2008 3:42 am UTC

Because it's Midnite is technically cheating on the part of Harmonix - it's not really from the 80s. The guys are just big Homestar Runner fans - most other people won't "get" the song. I think that it's a hilarious, sentimental glam metal sendup.

I love having these cartoon songs in these games. I understand "Timmy and the Lords of the Underworld" is in Rock Band. "Timmy Timmy - LIVING A LIE!"

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Re: This is just to be an asshole to people playing Guitar Hero.

Postby mosc » Wed Apr 02, 2008 3:42 pm UTC

Except "Because It's Midnight" was never featured on a cartoon, it was only released on a fake album. Trogdor from Homestar Runner was a much better include because it's much more well known.
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Re: This is just to be an asshole to people playing Guitar Hero.

Postby Clumpy » Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:28 pm UTC

Well, the actual CD mix of "Because It's Midnite" was never featured on a cartoon, but Strong Bad mumbles through it in a couple toons on the site. I definitely recognized it when I heard the Strong Bad Sings mix.

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Re: This is just to be an asshole to people playing Guitar Hero.

Postby DYRE » Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:19 pm UTC

mosc wrote:Except "Because It's Midnight" was never featured on a cartoon, it was only released on a fake album. Trogdor from Homestar Runner was a much better include because it's much more well known.


I wouldn't say it's a fake album, considering it exists.
It's not a serious album, by any means, however.

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Re: This is just to be an asshole to people playing Guitar Hero.

Postby AKAnotu » Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:20 pm UTC

Miles Invictus wrote:At least TTFAF isn't like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kzzeDkaNnI

Speaking of HOPOs...does anyone else think that the ones in Rock Band are a bit screwy?

it took me a while to figure it out, but you can't hit and hold a hammer on before the note plays, you have to hit the fret button at the exact same time that it is playable
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Re: This is just to be an asshole to people playing Guitar Hero.

Postby DYRE » Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:28 pm UTC

That's... actually how it worked in Guitar Hero 2.

And kind of in Guitar Hero 1, but those HOPOs... completely sucked.

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Re: Guitar Hero on National Television

Postby Aradae » Thu Apr 03, 2008 1:04 pm UTC

Frabjous wrote:
Yuri2356 wrote:Live with it.


I disagree with you that it's fun. It makes me feel like an idiot whenever I say it, and I've never heard anyone saying it out loud who didn't sound like an idiot doing so. I hope that the rare instances of me saying 'Revolution' don't cause you too much stress. If it does... live with it. :D


The only people who sound like idiots saying it out loud is anyone who makes a pun referring to their penis.



The name is also very unique. I can list a good number of products that have 360 or revolution in their name.
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Re: This is just to be an asshole to people playing Guitar Hero.

Postby Clumpy » Fri Apr 04, 2008 4:15 am UTC

It works like this:

GH: You must be holding down the next note, then let off the current note for hammer-offs. For hammer-ons, you must press the next button while the previous is still pressed. Plus, you have to press the note at the appropriate time. In other words, there can be no downtime between notes in a hammer-on wherein no note is being held or the combo will break. This setup mimics a real guitar.

GHII and Rocks the 80s: Same, but they upped the lenience between notes, so you can have a little downtime between notes, making HOPOs more than an exercise in frustration.

GHIII: Very loose. You can hold the next note down in the HOPO series while looking ahead to the next note, often leading to long strings of mostly-automated combos. This lenience plus the added note tolerance in general allows you to nail huge solo sections without paying much attention (Cult of Personality's for one). Note that the few points of the game wherein timing is absolutely crucial (Raining Blood, parts of TTFAF) seem exponentially more difficult.

I haven't played Rock Band. Seems like GHII to me, from your descriptions. Personally, I don't mind the way that GHIII babysits me.

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Re: This is just to be an asshole to people playing Guitar Hero.

Postby DYRE » Sun Apr 06, 2008 2:43 pm UTC

Clumpy wrote:Note that the few points of the game wherein timing is absolutely crucial (Raining Blood, parts of TTFAF) seem exponentially more difficult.

I don't think it's that it's "exponentially more difficult" because of the timing window. I'd sa that it's just because they're really hard parts.
If they were in Guitar Hero 2, then they'd be harder.
Also, that reminds me of this video.
It's the GH3 version of TtFaF, played in GH2.

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Re: This is just to be an asshole to people playing Guitar Hero.

Postby mosc » Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:07 pm UTC

for the top players, the pull offs in GH2 were easy enough. None of the stuff in GH3 would be "harder" for them if you went back to the old pull offs. However, for people who had not mastered the old pull offs, the new ones are a good bit easier it's true.

Remember you can do the GH3 pull offs as if they were GH2 (or GH1) pull offs if you wanted to, it'll still register just fine. They just gave you an easier option. Thus, if you were fine with the harder option already, the change didn't do too much. In fact, the "looseness" can actually throw off your rhythm because it allows you to drift during long pull sections instead of training you to be more rigid and accurate.

Personally I am in between. I was good enough at the old ones where on some GH3 stuff it actually bothers me that it's so loose (especially when you try to strum certain bits of it) but I was not so talented with the old ones that I'd be able to survive all the GH3 nasty bits without that loose registering. I guess that means I "like" the new pull offs. Really though I'd prefer more accurate charts which wouldn't require such a loose mechanic.
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Re: This is just to be an asshole to people playing Guitar Hero.

Postby DYRE » Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:10 pm UTC

Eh... the only think I really don't like about GH3's HOPOs (well, other than that the timing window is way too large. So... not really the only thing) is that the charters are able to decide what notes are HOPOs and which aren't. This results in silliness like Rock and Roll All Night's solo, and In the Belly of a Shark. Although, that's becuase Neversoft isn't as good at charting songs as Harmonix, and not really a flaw in the system. There are other examples of charting stupidity that have nothing to do with HOPOs (like the Yellow note to Blue-Orange chord at the end of The Way it Ends' solo, and So Far Away III in TtFaF)

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Re: This is just to be an asshole to people playing Guitar Hero.

Postby mosc » Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:51 pm UTC

yes, GH3 highlighted the significance of charting (and the suckiness of neversoft at it) very strongly.
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Re: Your Guitar Hero/Rock Band Band Name

Postby Flying Betty » Sat May 31, 2008 7:03 pm UTC

Thread megabump because this is my first time owning a new game system since the SNES, so I can finally have Guitar Hero.

Mine is The Verbing Nouns.
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Re: Your Guitar Hero/Rock Band Band Name

Postby nyeguy » Sat May 31, 2008 11:25 pm UTC

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Re: Your Guitar Hero/Rock Band Band Name

Postby pseudoidiot » Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:59 pm UTC

Until recently I've always used "Ogre Smash" -- a friend of mine said if he ever starts a Metal band, he'll call it that.

Starting with Rock Band, I've been using 'The Worthless Peon's -- from Scrubs.
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Re: Your Guitar Hero/Rock Band Band Name

Postby hendusoone » Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:28 pm UTC

My Rock Band name: One-Eyed Jacks.

It was named after a friend's cat, Jack, who has one eye.
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Re: Your Guitar Hero/Rock Band Band Name

Postby SimonBob » Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:42 pm UTC

After picking up GHII, I decided on the train ride home that I would name my band after a really obscure videogame spoiler. At first I was going to go with "Pantera Dies!" as a Xevious ref, but then I recalled there was a band called Pantera and the elitism might get muddled. So I thought about it, went through a few games in my head, and came up with "Jack Meets Dana" when I got to Solomon's Key.

I think it's better than "The Del Sexays" which was our band in the first GH when I met up with a bunch of friends in New York.
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Re: Your Guitar Hero/Rock Band Band Name

Postby Garm » Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:49 pm UTC

I thought of one the other day but have yet to make the band. Name is "Run DHCP".
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Re: Your Guitar Hero/Rock Band Band Name

Postby 0.0 » Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:38 pm UTC

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Re: Your Guitar Hero/Rock Band Band Name

Postby mason240 » Fri Jun 06, 2008 2:44 am UTC

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Its our (my wife and I) band on Rock Band. She plays medium guitar and I play hard drums (expect for RTTH - damn that song to hell).


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