Diablo III

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Mishrak
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Mishrak » Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:34 pm UTC

Of course, but maybe I'm just spoiled from companies who actually offer real input on their rss feeds than just silly stuff. I'd be much more interested in D3 (and i've played it enough that's for sure) if they had a model of developmental transparency similar to companies like CCP or inXile or the dudes at Path of Exile.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby mosc » Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:43 pm UTC

Seems like blizzard is taking D3 that way with it's developer commentary. I also get the increasing feeling that they're working on an expansion so they are focused on fixing core mechanics right now and leaving additional content for the expansion.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Mishrak » Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:56 pm UTC

I really appreciate the transparency in admitting the AH was a mistake by Jay Wilson. It streamlined it sure, but it also ruined a lot of what made D2 so much fun, and that was the community. Outside of twitch, there isn't much D3 community.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2013/03/29/diabl ... ay-wilson/

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Re: Diablo III

Postby mosc » Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:41 pm UTC

I think the auction house is fine. They just didn't understand and account for it when they were building the game. They wanted a game where people would play through chunks of inferno time and time again slowly advancing, slowly progressing in gear, not having enough drops to filter down to everyone so that gear creep would be controlled at least until years later for the first expansion. What happened was people learned that generating wealth was a completely separate activity from improving your character. You do whatever you are most effective at to generate wealth and then use that wealth to get exceedingly rare pieces. This generation of wealth is done by flooding the auction house to generate as much wealth as possible and the auction house sub-game becomes much more closely tied to your character's gear state then your gameplay. That, and people didn't like dieing as much as blizzard thought. They wanted access to the best rewards with only a few hours worth of effort and no need for skill.

I think the AH works great as a support for the loot grind nature of D3 but the basic D3 game underneath wasn't designed to deal with it. The changes they've made have smoothed things over as much as they could but they now have a very different game then they designed originally with some serious and permanent disfunction.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Xenomortis » Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:05 pm UTC

D3 was built to accommodate the Auction House.
Maybe not very well, but the design costs of the AH were evident in the early days of the game.
Blizzard were fully aware that the AH would necessitate changes to their D2 formula; they knew the effects of the AH would penetrate to every level of their gameplay design. Of course, it's almost impossible to fully predict how these effects would manifest.

How things have progressed in the last 8 months or so, I cannot say; I don't think I've played since summer and I have little intention of playing it again.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Chen » Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:22 pm UTC

I've said it before, the AH makes things more convenient. D2 had a purely barter economy with proxies for money (SoJs, High Runes etc). Finding an item you wanted was tedious. You had to go through trade channels or trade games until you found what you wanted. The AH removes the need for that. You can play the AH flipping game if you want to and it is generally a far faster way of making money (and thus improving your gear) than playing the game. However, playing the game DOES work to get gear upgrades. Frankly I've found it easier to get very high end gear in D3 than D2. In D2 you NEEDED a great drop to trade for another one. In D3 you can at least build your way there with smaller drops (selling things for 500k-1m will eventually get you that hundred million gold item). Clearly the really godly stuff still needs you to find another really godly item to trade for it (via the AH middleman) but its effectively the same thing. The AH at least gives me the option of playing the game for the majority of my time while using relatively little time to sell/buy things. In D2 you played a bunch, found something good and then had to spend ages trying to find someone to trade it for something you wanted.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:58 pm UTC

I absolutely despised the trading system in D2, and in D3, loved being able to convert my findings and collected gold into new items.

I never got into the uber grinding for best of the best gear costing millions of gold, so the AH to me, was always a very good feature.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Mishrak » Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:11 pm UTC

I agree, the AH does make it more convenient, but it also kills the necessity to play with other people. Just grind away at the most efficient mp level till you get some drops, sell the drops on the AH, rinse repeat. Your need for interacting with ANYONE else is almost zero. The only exception is running ubers.

And Blizzard misses yet another an opportunity to really bring a viable incentive to group up with other players. They're trending that way, so I guess that's a start, but it's not quite there yet.

article
Here’s what they have planned for the update:

Tags to let you specify Questing, Full Act Clear, Keywarden, or PvP based play for server matchmaking
XP buffs – Values are still being twerked, but Blizzard are currently looking at an extra 10% XP per player
Monster health reduced from 70% extra per player to 50%
An “Identify All”, so players spend less time investigating their inventory
Archon duration to be extended by assists
Notifications whenever a player deals or takes damage from an Elite Pack or Treasure Goblins
Players Near You will list anyone on your local network
Private chat for up to 99 friends



Identify All is the best feature here. I'm confused as to why it's taken this long to go in, but better late than never.

The very first incentive to grouping - and it's a 10% exp bonus per player. Really? Who cares about such a negligible gain? Between the lag and FPS death associated with adding more players to your game, you're just better off upping your MP level. Going from MP1 to MP2 is like adding two players to your game, without all the lag. I can see the benefit this adds to lower geared players and lower level players, but what about dudes who are at higher mp levels? Exp isn't so much any issue anymore. It's already easy enough to level. Drop rates are what Blizzard really should have done here. Increased drop rates is the only real incentive to want to cope with the lag and fps derpage and until Blizzard does this, having more players in your game is not that much of a benefit. They could just add a simple gain per player added to only legendaries or only rares and it'd be worth it.

I just don't see why they continue to slowly implement features from what was already an overwhelmingly successful model in Diablo 2.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Chen » Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:21 pm UTC

Mishrak wrote:The very first incentive to grouping - and it's a 10% exp bonus per player. Really? Who cares about such a negligible gain? Between the lag and FPS death associated with adding more players to your game, you're just better off upping your MP level. Going from MP1 to MP2 is like adding two players to your game, without all the lag. I can see the benefit this adds to lower geared players and lower level players, but what about dudes who are at higher mp levels? Exp isn't so much any issue anymore. It's already easy enough to level. Drop rates are what Blizzard really should have done here. Increased drop rates is the only real incentive to want to cope with the lag and fps derpage and until Blizzard does this, having more players in your game is not that much of a benefit. They could just add a simple gain per player added to only legendaries or only rares and it'd be worth it.

I just don't see why they continue to slowly implement features from what was already an overwhelmingly successful model in Diablo 2.


They aren't adding drop rates because then it no longer becomes "nice" to level with people it becomes mandatory. They're wanting to balance between letting solo players do their thing and reward group players but not so much that the solo player feels they NEED to group to get things done. Its a tough line to walk.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Mishrak » Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:33 pm UTC

In Diablo 2, you got pretty noticeable increases in drops from having another player in your game. It wasn't so noticeable that you couldn't operate solo if you wanted to, and honestly you weren't losing that much from going solo. Just run a MF sorc/hammerdin if you're rare/unique hunting, or run a low MF build if you wanted socketables and whites. But, there was a very real incentive to group with other players, in that the bonus exp and bonus drop rates were worth it. People doing power leveling runs, or high level 8 man Baal runs was a perfect example of this. Now most of those are bots today, but that's a different topic. Blizzard knows how to do this, they just aren't doing it.

The real issue is the performance loss you get from having a second, third, or fourth player in your game. Not to mention adding another 50%-200% hp (for 4 players) on TOP of the MP level increases, and it just gets out of hand to the point of being useless. (Right now it's 70% but they're adjusting it down to 50%)

If they really wanted to encourage players to group, they could simply add a flat amount per player, very small increase, in drop rates for having another player in the game. Or they could actually fix the incredibly serious performance issues associated with this game and that would go a long way towards helping. Or they could add more content like the Ubers that motivates players to group together.

But a tiny exp gain, especially after already buffing exp in mp levels and having a hellfire ring, is just a fairly useless incentive to get players to group. Exp isn't the issue anymore. Performance, bad item balance, lack of class versatility, bad drop rates and lack of end game content are what's holding this game back.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Chen » Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:48 pm UTC

Mishrak wrote:In Diablo 2, you got pretty noticeable increases in drops from having another player in your game. It wasn't so noticeable that you couldn't operate solo if you wanted to, and honestly you weren't losing that much from going solo. Just run a MF sorc/hammerdin if you're rare/unique hunting, or run a low MF build if you wanted socketables and whites. But, there was a very real incentive to group with other players, in that the bonus exp and bonus drop rates were worth it. People doing power leveling runs, or high level 8 man Baal runs was a perfect example of this. Now most of those are bots today, but that's a different topic. Blizzard knows how to do this, they just aren't doing it.


D2 you grouped for fast Baal runs if you wanted Exp. Grouping for items was super ineffective unless you had a loot macro because you had to fight for the loot. Not to mention you could just set /players X anyway and get the increased Xp and drops without needing to use a group to begin with. I seem to recall doing that more often than not. Its pretty similar to monster power in D3 actually.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Mishrak » Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:02 pm UTC

You couldn't set player's X in online mode iirc, but I don't recall for sure, unless there was a recent change. It's been awhile.

Also I played with RL friends, and rarely in public games, so we usually were quite cooperative when it came to loot. In the rare chances that I ran in big pubbie games, I just got good at snagging loot when I saw it. I never used a loot macro. I'd miss some, but that's the way that game goes. With instanced loot in D3 though, that issue is gone.

So while there may have been some issues with everyone sharing drops, it didn't change the fact that drop rates did go up, and the best places to get loot in D2 were in 8 man games, and a lot of people grouped for items that way.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Mishrak » Fri Apr 19, 2013 5:53 pm UTC

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/9425564 ... s-4-8-2013

So it seems they're using the brains for once. At least they're starting to patch more stuff in the game that should have been in from the beginning. Better late than never I guess.

Multiplayer Co-Op
Players now receive a 10% bonus to Magic Find, Gold Find, and Experience per additional player in a multiplayer game, up to a maximum of 30% in a four-player game
The Magic Find and Gold Find bonuses can exceed their respective 300% caps
The Experience bonus can stack with other bonuses from items and Monster Power (the bonuses will stack multiplicatively)


Still doesn't deal with the lag, but it's a start.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Chen » Fri Apr 19, 2013 7:44 pm UTC

The fact the bonus is multiplicative is a good thing. NV stacks as a multiplier as well apparently (though I think only for Exp not MF/GF).

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Drumheller769 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:57 am UTC

So I tried to do some crafting over the weekend, some of the higher end stuff, 6 affix armor and amulets. I got nothing useful, has anyone else had this experience that high end crafting is a waste of gold?
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Mishrak » Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:47 pm UTC

It's certainly not a waste of gold, you just need to do a fair bit of it. I got a 9k dps upgrade on my bracers, for example. My shoulders, on the market, would be worth a billion or two, which were also random rolled. It's just a bit of luck really.

If I still played, I'd be trying to roll better gloves and amulet.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Drumheller769 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:57 pm UTC

Its just annoying to waste 100k a pop + mats and get trash sometimes. Of 7 pieces I crafted I got 1 that would be decent on a 60 wizard...that I dont have and no pieces that were great.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Mishrak » Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:01 pm UTC

Yep, it is quite annoying.

Your best bet is to not keep track, and roll stuff when you get maybe 20 or 30 combinations worth.

Keep in mind it may take two or three times that to get 1 or 2 that are decent/useable, however that's still worlds faster than expecting a drop to roll anywhere near as good (and in fact they cannot because of the ability to select a stat).

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:13 pm UTC

Mishrak wrote:(and in fact they cannot because of the ability to select a stat).
Selectthewhatnow?
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Mishrak » Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:16 pm UTC

The new random roll recipes.

You can select a primary stat and it will roll stupid high numbers of it. Much like the hellfire ring.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:18 pm UTC

Inteeeeeeeeeeeeeeeresting.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Mishrak » Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:41 pm UTC

Yeah, they're pretty much better than any rare drops that you can get for the most part, but they're account bound so you can't sell them.

It's a nice alternative for getting upgrades, and it means a double stat roll gets you around 300 in said stat. 6 attributes is also sick. My bracers are stupid good and they're not even close to the best. I'd like some AR on them, but the vitality is worth trading off the 80AR I had on my past ones.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby mosc » Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:03 pm UTC

The demonic essence crafting items have pretty much completed the rendering of non-unique armor pieces as merchant food almost by rule. You still get one handed weapons and amulets which have such high "home run" values semi-regularly that you really need to look at them when you ID. But so many rare item types I would happily trade for automatically picking up their crafting material or gold value instead.

I play all 5 classes. Of the new crafts I use right now:
Shoulders: DH
Bracers: Monk, DH, Barb, WD
Gloves: Monk, DH
Amulet: none
Chest: none

I do use 3 vile wards (wd,sorcy,monk) and 3 witching hours (wd, sorcy, monk) and 2 inna's temperance (dh, monk) along with nat boot/rings on both dh and monk so yeah, I also agree that some of the sets/uniques are a little too common.

The only reason my sorcy doesn't use the bracers is because she needs lacunis for attack speed. Shoulders, replacing vile ward's resistance is hard but if you roll enough you will find it for sure. Gloves are a particularly good investment for new players as they can get something very usable but require a lot of rolls to replace higher tier rare gloves. That said, people continually roll good gloves for themselves which has flooded the market with gloves that used to cost a whole lot more. Amulets are the most important non-weapon slot on your character but the price of crafting these is too high. I don't craft amulets but I think if you were to get something useful everywhere else, you would craft exclusively amulets in the "endgame". Chests are very rarely that useful because of the set items. Similarly, you have to wonder how much use the other armor slots would get if they were added. Pants or boots are going to be soundly rejected by dex classes and ice climbers/nats are stiff competition on feet. Helms could certainly roll competitive against all but crit chance mempos but I don't think they want to hit the class specific items (wd, sorcy, and monk helms with useful stats like APOC). Belts, for the idiocy of witching hour damage, and the utility of IK would be a hard piece to craft usefully.

Attack speed uniques can be replaced with primary attribute unless you're playing a CM sorcy but the crit damage or movement speed offered by witching hour, temperance, and lacunis are hard to beat off with raw stats. Plus, the 5 they have now create a nice balance with syncs for essences, tears, books, brimstone, and extra essences pretty well in keeping with the game's droprates.

New hotness for those who are following D3 more through this thread than the game is scaling all uniques up to ilevel 63 and letting them all drop there so we'll get level 63 buriza's, puzzle rings, signet rings, etc along with a whole lot more junk uniques. They're also cutting the rare droprates by 75% but lowering the ranges of rolls on attributes/resistance/etc to only the top 25% of their former ranges. The idea is this will give you fewer drops but the same rate of useful drops. However, what this will really do is fuck up the crafting material ratios and give us far fewer useful rares (since most rares are useless due to having thorns, health gain boost, all 4 attributes, etc). I am not looking forward to either change as I think they're both half-cocked.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Mishrak » Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:12 pm UTC

I'm really not sure what Blizzard is thinking at this stage. They're teetering on the edge of ruining the entire market (arguably they already have) or at the very least, being forced to mudflate their game to levels that are stupid (again, arguably they already have). I kinda get where they're going with the crafting stuff, but nearly completely obsoleting the stats of the drops (but not the necessity of them) and then nerfing drop rates at the same time is really weird.

What's also thoroughly confusing to me is why did Blizzard completely ignore the overwhelmingly successful recipe they had in Diablo 2? Why re-invent the wheel from scratch? I mean they're playing catch up now and have been since they launched, rather than building up what was already working. I don't get it at all.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Drumheller769 » Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:28 pm UTC

So I should be salvaging every rare drop thats not AH worthy instead of merchanting them then?
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:31 pm UTC

Mishrak wrote:What's also thoroughly confusing to me is why did Blizzard completely ignore the overwhelmingly successful recipe they had in Diablo 2?
Rose colored glasses, D2 having a host of obnoxious problems that were fixed, etc. etc. etc.

What specifically are you referring to here?
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Mishrak » Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:38 pm UTC

It's probably still more practical to sell them for gold and buy the stuff on the AH, but I haven't looked at prices in awhile. If the prices are higher than what you would get on average for a rare, then yes, salvage them. Otherwise, I'd sell the rares for gold and buy the components you need from the AH.


@ Izawwlgood

ID all not making it in until the 8th patch.
Very small multiplayer incentive or support until the 8th patch.
Hardware demands with 4 players are too steep and the game is nearly unplayable due to lag even on low settings with just one or two additional players.
Arena style FFA instagib PVP they could have launched day 1 instead of taking 7 patches.
Very little class versatility compared to what D2 had.
Making only one act respectably viable to farm for 8 patches.
Auction house still missing some very basic functionality that should have been common sense from launch (searching for SoJs for example).
The storyline being one of the worst continuations of a series I've ever seen.

I could keep going. Yeah D2 had a host of problems that were fixed. My confusion lies in the fact that rather than build on the successful parts of D2, Blizzard decided not to launch those from the start at all and only after their game is in the doldrums do they add what everyone was expecting to be in from the beginning. Also it's not rose colored glasses entirely. D2 Launched in 2000 and until they just gave up policing the bots, it was one of the most successful and fun to play games from that era. It's still policed somewhat, but it's not that difficult to get around their protections. Regardless, it had a really long run and was still being patched as of 2011.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:55 pm UTC

I really disagree with the majority of your points;
Spoiler:
Mishrak wrote:ID all not making it in until the 8th patch.
This is a problem and should have been in from the start. It's not game breaking though.
Mishrak wrote:Very small multiplayer incentive or support until the 8th patch.
This is also a problem, although, I think was actually fixed early on. The problem was that you were penalized for multiplaying, and that was removed very early on. The incentive doesn't need +MF/+GF, it can just be having someone support you.
Mishrak wrote:Hardware demands
I haven't seen bad lag w/4 players, but in anycase, people used to LOL about how a Hammerdin or Necromancer with a buttload of pets could crash D2 for others. This isn't new.
Mishrak wrote:Arena style PVP they could have launched day 1 instead of taking 7 patches.
Agreed, but as with D2, I'd wager most people don't get the game for the PvP.
Mishrak wrote:Very little class versatility compared to what D2 had.
I highly disagree. Highly. I can't even begin to approach this one; the 'class versatility' in D2 was negligible. The different ways to play the classes I've played (all but DH) are fun and varied, and more to the point, viable.
Mishrak wrote:Making only one act respectably viable to farm for 8 patches.
I think that's mostly player choice and insistence on maximizing the game. I found snowy battlements to be kind of dull over time, and mixed it up as I felt like doing. I also don't think this was particularly different from D2 runs; you don't remember grinding Mephisto?
Mishrak wrote:Auction house still missing some very basic functionality that should have been common sense from launch (searching for SoJs for example).
And was quickly rectified? Are you forgetting that D2 didn't HAVE an AH... Or an economy based around gold...?
Mishrak wrote:The storyline being one of the worst continuations of a series I've ever seen.
Yes, and it's a shame because the D2 or even D1 storyline was SO compelling?

Seriously, hombre, the game is about clicking on monsters and watching them explode. D1 was about that, D2 was about that, and D3 is a very reasonable improvement upon that paradigm. It has flaws. Some of those flaws are virtually unforgivable, but lets not fall into that ever obnoxious trap of beating our breast because D2 was SOOOOO awesome, why, when I was in high school I spent HOURS just jammin' out to that groove... :roll:

Blizzard is in this really odd boat where they produced a game that people invested hundreds upon hundreds of hours grinding for slightly better stat providing gear, and then turned around and bitched and moaned because they weren't having fun, or it was broken, or they wanted D2. I have never seen a more ridiculous group of whiney gamers than in Blizzard fans...
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Mishrak » Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:10 pm UTC

The auction house wasn't rectified. You still can't properly search for each type of SoJ on the AH without having to sift through dozens of them.

I (and pretty much everyone I played with) would get insane FPS derps when it comes to graphics. I'm running win7 x64 with 8 GB of ram, a radeon 6850, an AMD Phenom II quad core processor. I can triple box EVE, play Dark Souls, watch a movie, have mumble, vent and skype open all at the same time and not get the kind of lag I get in D3 when my monk friend would join in.

We could probably go back and forth over class versatility. I'll concede that D2 wasn't as deep as it could have been. Most of the versatility I remember was a result of runewords and not necessarily the class itself. D3 isn't much better though, especially with the lack of class specific incentives to use 1h weapon types. Monks get the short end of the stick too, as not only are they bound by just 1 or 2 legendaries (echoing fury), but they have to compete with barbs who can use whatever 1h they like. Monks should have gotten access to some weapons that were particularly good for them from the beginning. 2h is somewhat viable, but Skorn is the only practical choice here. So gear versatility amongst melee characters could be a lot better. DH's actually have a pretty good choice of weapons in comparison, as dual wielding (danetta's), 1h + quiver, or crossbow + quiver are all viable. Compare that to D2, where a melee could use a host of runewords and legendaries, upped ethereal stuff, the occasional GG rare, 2h, 1h, polearm, axe, sword, whatever. There were a lot of great choices end game D2 and most of them viable.

In regards to exp/loot runs, at least in D2, you went through the whole game to farm stuff. There were a lot of reasons to farm things in every act. For D3: Until just a few patches ago, the best items didn't even drop in A1 or A2, so if you were farming those it was a total waste of your time unless you weren't strong enough to move up. Even with that, A3 is still the most elites. Only with 1.08 are they balancing out the npcs you encounter so you can have similar levels of productivity farming the other acts.

The storyline wasn't very compelling, I'll concede that also, but having said that, a little more effort could have gone into writing. I mean, hooray Cain is dead okay lets move on? Not even a cutscene. Not like he wasn't an important character or anything.

[edit]
Re: Multiplayer support - No, I think to get players to fight through lag and performance drops, as well as 50% npc hp increase per player, they need to have bonuses in drops like those that existed in D2. Short of not being able to handle an uber boss, or get through some of the pre-monster power Inferno content, there wasn't much bonus to play with other people. It was a solo game at best, at least if you wanted to advance your character in a reasonable timeframe. None of this was fixed until 1.08. Also all the support functionality that you'd expect to be in there to make it easy for people to find games doesn't exist until 1.08. So this wasn't fixed early on either.

(also it seemed like you agreed with about the same as you disagreed, hardly the majority! Now I'm just being disagreeable. ;))

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:34 pm UTC

AH: I don't know what you mean. If you want a specific piece of gear, you have... what is it, six? five? filters to search with. For all the problems with the AH, and there were some, you have to remember that neither D1 or D2 *had* an AH. You can argue whether or not that was a good thing in and of itself, but since I am of the persuasion that D3 having an AH was a MONUMENTALLY better thing, I'm going to have a hard time agreeing with you. It's like complaining that Super Metroid's inventory system is a little tricky to use compared to Metroids...

Class Versatility; I remember in D1 having a lvl 40 something Wizard (sorcerer? can't remember what they were called) that had found a really good set of full plate and a sword, so just pumped a bunch of strength and used that, swinging away like a warrior. You want to talk about class versatility, remember it took years of patching to come up with the synergy bullshit solution to D2 to mitigate the fact that skilltrees were a thing. Remember that this was a problem, because while every ability in D3 has *some* use, *most* abilities in D2 were just stepping stones to the better stuff beyond it. Granularity != versatility, when most classes had one or two viable builds, and more to the point, most of those builds played basically the same.

But yeah! I loved having a 'run meter'.

It sounds like your biggest complaint here is gear availability at the very end game. I don't really find grinding for uber gear to be a particularly enjoyable part of the game (and yes, felt the low level cap was fairly annoying compared to the level cap in D2), but if your issue can be resolved by simply releasing more uniques/legendaries, it sounds like it's an issue with the way YOU enjoy the end game, not the game balance itself.

Loot runs; No, in D2 you absolutely did not go through the whole game. You portaled into hell, beelined to that butcher like boss, then mephisto, logged and repeated. The portal system in D3 is a huge improvement over the spammable log in kill log out system that D2 encouraged. You want to complain about 'forcing players to only grind one act'? This was a worse issue in D2.

And yeah, sure, Cain should have gotten more than a Nooooooooooooooooooooooo-ok, lets keep going. But again, these stories are INCREDIBLY campy and shallow. I actually felt the twist of having Tyreal being the stranger was a neat touch, and Adrial popping up to give up her daughter Leah was a reasonably cool and involved 'twist', given how Leah was someone you had such a relationship with throughout the game. I absolutely, 100% agree that the entirity of Belial's, Azmodan's, and even Diablo's involvement was laughable, but then, Andarial, the Butcher, the bosses at the end of the jungle area, Mephisto, and Diablo in D2 were *just as bad*. Again, these games aren't made for their awesome plot. No one cares. You listen to it once, and then skip it as you repeatedly grind through for better gear, so, it's not much of a complaint.


I'm not even really playing the game anymore, but I find most of the complaints levied against it to be so very odd.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Mishrak » Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:51 pm UTC

Spoiler:
AH: I don't know what you mean. If you want a specific piece of gear, you have... what is it, six? five? filters to search with. For all the problems with the AH, and there were some, you have to remember that neither D1 or D2 *had* an AH. You can argue whether or not that was a good thing in and of itself, but since I am of the persuasion that D3 having an AH was a MONUMENTALLY better thing, I'm going to have a hard time agreeing with you. It's like complaining that Super Metroid's inventory system is a little tricky to use compared to Metroids...

Sorry, but that's not true. Stone of Jordan has a lot of skills on it. You can't search for all of them in the AH. Try searching specifically for a hungering arrow SoJ. You can't. You have to sort by elite damage % and discipline to even filter out the other classes SoJ's. Then you have to sift through all the rest of the DH SoJ's to find it. Not to mention that you have to set the filter to "armor" rather than "ring" to even get this to come up. It's a very common sense fix. I have mixed feelings about the AH vs the old bartering system, but I'm not going to get into that at this stage. I will say though, when the former director of the game says it hurt the game that should say something about how that was implemented.

Spoiler:
Class Versatility; I remember in D1 having a lvl 40 something Wizard (sorcerer? can't remember what they were called) that had found a really good set of full plate and a sword, so just pumped a bunch of strength and used that, swinging away like a warrior. You want to talk about class versatility, remember it took years of patching to come up with the synergy bullshit solution to D2 to mitigate the fact that skilltrees were a thing. Remember that this was a problem, because while every ability in D3 has *some* use, *most* abilities in D2 were just stepping stones to the better stuff beyond it. Granularity != versatility, when most classes had one or two viable builds, and more to the point, most of those builds played basically the same.
In some sense, yeah. There was a lack of depth, but gear choices could often make up for that (particularly with runewords).

[spoiler]
Loot runs; No, in D2 you absolutely did not go through the whole game. You portaled into hell, beelined to that butcher like boss, then mephisto, logged and repeated. The portal system in D3 is a huge improvement over the spammable log in kill log out system that D2 encouraged. You want to complain about 'forcing players to only grind one act'? This was a worse issue in D2.


A unique run in D2 consisted of hitting every act boss (excluding Duriel usually) and static elite packs (like the Council or Pindle). A rune/socketable run consisted of hitting Pits in A1, Chaos Sanctuary in A4, some of the same static elite packs, and cows. Exp runs consisted of all kinds of stuff, or you could just get power leveled through Players 8 Baal runs. So at least in that sense, you saw the whole game. There wasn't a huge variance though. Now when all acts have similar NPC content in 1.08, they will be fun and this problem will have been fixed. Derp 8 patches though.

Spoiler:
And yeah, sure, Cain should have gotten more than a Nooooooooooooooooooooooo-ok, lets keep going. But again, these stories are INCREDIBLY campy and shallow. I actually felt the twist of having Tyreal being the stranger was a neat touch, and Adrial popping up to give up her daughter Leah was a reasonably cool and involved 'twist', given how Leah was someone you had such a relationship with throughout the game. I absolutely, 100% agree that the entirity of Belial's, Azmodan's, and even Diablo's involvement was laughable, but then, Andarial, the Butcher, the bosses at the end of the jungle area, Mephisto, and Diablo in D2 were *just as bad*. Again, these games aren't made for their awesome plot. No one cares. You listen to it once, and then skip it as you repeatedly grind through for better gear, so, it's not much of a complaint.

Fair enough. :)

It sounds like your biggest complaint here is gear availability at the very end game. I don't really find grinding for uber gear to be a particularly enjoyable part of the game (and yes, felt the low level cap was fairly annoying compared to the level cap in D2), but if your issue can be resolved by simply releasing more uniques/legendaries, it sounds like it's an issue with the way YOU enjoy the end game, not the game balance itself.
My biggest complaint is a lack of content at the end of the game and the fact that it's taken so long to get this stuff fixed. It's not that it's boring, it's that there's glaring issues they should fix, and then they should add motivations for people to still play their game at the end. This is done by adding depth and fixing common sense things. They're working on that, fortunately, but they have a lot of work to be done. Hopefully their expansion will make some more headway.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Chen » Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:13 pm UTC

Mishrak wrote:Sorry, but that's not true. Stone of Jordan has a lot of skills on it. You can't search for all of them in the AH. Try searching specifically for a hungering arrow SoJ. You can't. You have to sort by elite damage % and discipline to even filter out the other classes SoJ's. Then you have to sift through all the rest of the DH SoJ's to find it. Not to mention that you have to set the filter to "armor" rather than "ring" to even get this to come up. It's a very common sense fix. I have mixed feelings about the AH vs the old bartering system, but I'm not going to get into that at this stage. I will say though, when the former director of the game says it hurt the game that should say something about how that was implemented.


Searching for stats that are not normally on a piece of gear (uniques) is currently a pain since they don't show up in the filter list. So yes this is a flaw with the AH. For your reference, you can work around it though: Keep the drop down list set to All Armor (or Weapons) and then filter by legendary, level 60 and then search for the hungering arrow function. Add in the high elite damage and you've almost certainly cleared everything off the list except SoJs.

The former director saying the AH was a problem really means nothing to me. I much prefer searching for something on the AH than having to jump trade game to trade game trying to find someone who will barter with me. Having a gold currency and the easy way to safely trade items is fantastic. I've traded all of 2 times in character in D3. The first was for some piece of crap amulet for 500k gold. The second was attempting to sell a Manjuma's knife for 70m. The guy put 70m in the window, dropped some other item in and changed it to 7m and then thanked me an exited the game when I cancelled the trade. I don't think he realized I didn't fall for his scam. Anyways, that was my last non-AH trade.

A unique run in D2 consisted of hitting every act boss (excluding Duriel usually) and static elite packs (like the Council or Pindle). A rune/socketable run consisted of hitting Pits in A1, Chaos Sanctuary in A4, some of the same static elite packs, and cows. Exp runs consisted of all kinds of stuff, or you could just get power leveled through Players 8 Baal runs. So at least in that sense, you saw the whole game. There wasn't a huge variance though. Now when all acts have similar NPC content in 1.08, they will be fun and this problem will have been fixed. Derp 8 patches though.


This is another issue that can be linked with build variety and the AH. Efficiency. There are TONS of build that you could use to beat MP10 with. I can run through the game with a Venom Hydra/Blizzard build and not die. The problem is its HORRIBLY inefficient compared to Archon or CM/WW. You throw a big enough playbase at something and the efficient builds are coming to come out right away. In the end SOMETHING is going to be at the top. I mean there's the current snowstorm (or whatever the ray of frost rune is) build which is nearly as efficient as a CM/WW build. But if you can build one, you can build the other so why bother with something that's less efficient? Some people will play it but the vast majority are looking for efficient grinding out of gear. This is similar to any ARPG that has a gear grind. You're going to want to maximize your exp/drop rate so you can get those good items. There were plenty of viable builds in D2 but many of them were inefficient. Yes you had to run different areas in D2 to get different things. This was FORCED on you. They made a change in D3 where they said "you know, we'll make the drops the same everywhere so people can CHOOSE where they grind". The problem is that means people will go for the most efficient area. I don't even think the 1.08 patch will change this. There's still going to be a BEST area and its going to be the place people farm the hell out of. 1.08 may just change that area from same Act 3 areas to other places (my suspicion is going to be Act 2 vault of the assassin + the 3 dungeons in Kull's place).

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Re: Diablo III

Postby mosc » Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:21 pm UTC

The whole searching for items in the AH thing is basically a problem for 3 items, for about 1/3rd of the class specific skills. Skull Grasps, Stone of Jordans, and Mara's Kaleidoscope always roll class specific stats. The problem is, they're "armor" which means even if you avoid searching by ring/amulet or by their name, you still need to pick "armor". The game then goes by the normal rare droprates and is happy to let you know that anything that only spawns on rare weapons and offhands is not available in "armor", aren't you glad it took them off the list for you?

So yes, you can search for a barb belt skill like frenzy or cleave on a stone of jordan using "armor" as your filter. But no, you cannot look for hammer of the ancients. Of all the skills, the ones with substantially reduced cost are the most game changing. Hammer of the ancients is a 25% reduction in rage cost and is available on 3 different uniques. It's what blizzard said they want so badly, gear driving build diversity. Yet they do not even let us look for them. The fact that they purposely remove that with stupid stat filtering on their side.

I don't think it's fair at all to comment about how much time people play Diablo as some kind of inherent hypocracy in their complaints. Some of the complaints about diablo are made only because of the duality that it is both fun to play and yet still has flaws that should be glaringly simple to fix! Identify all? Really? That's hypocritical to ask for because I play the game already? NOT removing some of my search choices in the AH should be equally simple. There's no reason at all to restrict the mod search based on type or name. So what if I search for movement speed on shoulders and it comes back empty! Big deal. This is a purposely added feature that is moronic. And not that anybody uses shields anymore but if they DID, you still can't search by block %, only by bonus block % (which is 0-9 where the shield's inherent range is 10-25 on uniques ffs)
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Mishrak » Wed May 08, 2013 4:32 pm UTC

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2013/05/b ... e-done/#p3

Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant.

Tl;dr - gold dupe went live with 1.08, people duped gold as fast as they could and bought as many items as they could, causing gobs of gold to flow into the economy. Blizzard doesn't want to do a roll back, so congrats thoroughly obliterated Diablo 3 economy.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Lostdreams » Wed May 08, 2013 7:46 pm UTC

Honestly, given their response time to class exploits and bot usage, I'm suprised this didn't happen sooner.

At this point, the only way to fix the economy balance is a full reset (Which wouldn't happen due to the RMAH) and it would only work until the next big dupe wave. (8 months after, when there is enough item saturation that duping a few top tier items isn't as viable as just duping the shit out of some gold)
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed May 08, 2013 7:56 pm UTC

How bad is the economy broken now?
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Chen » Thu May 09, 2013 11:40 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:How bad is the economy broken now?


A lot of people made absurd amounts of money due to the dupe. That said the AH has been down since they realized this and they've stopped in game gold trading as well. So its not clear if they have some sort of plan to fix this. If they don't do anything and just let things resume there will be massive hyperinflation and farming gold will become nearly pointless. Of course, its not clear what that means though. Any gold you'd have saved up will be comparatively worthless, but farming just gold was pretty pointless to begin with considering where prices were at even before this issue. The value in gold of high end items will change but the odds of getting those high end items did not. As such if you found a 3cc Mempo now maybe instead of the couple hundred million you'll get 2 billion for it, if you try to sell it due to the inflation.

Its still pretty disastrous since anyone with gold in the 10s to hundreds of millions range probably lost a very large chunk of that value and now have practically no buying power until they find something else of value (which will sell for probably more than the total amount of money they had before, again due to the inflation).

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Re: Diablo III

Postby mosc » Thu May 09, 2013 1:10 pm UTC

well, I guess it's good I had my money locked up in the RMAH currency (which I would hardly call dollars) rather than gold. I did have about 70 million gold. Not going to break my gameplay too bad if gold goes the way of the dodo I suppose. That would mean probably a gem based economy and lots of trade channel reading. Probably more time on trade forums than on the actual game. Oh well, lets see what blizzard can do.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Mishrak » Thu May 09, 2013 1:19 pm UTC

mosc wrote:well, I guess it's good I had my money locked up in the RMAH currency (which I would hardly call dollars) rather than gold. I did have about 70 million gold. Not going to break my gameplay too bad if gold goes the way of the dodo I suppose. That would mean probably a gem based economy and lots of trade channel reading. Probably more time on trade forums than on the actual game. Oh well, lets see what blizzard can do.



That sounds a lot like how D2 was until runes came into play.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Chen » Thu May 09, 2013 2:44 pm UTC

mosc wrote:well, I guess it's good I had my money locked up in the RMAH currency (which I would hardly call dollars) rather than gold. I did have about 70 million gold. Not going to break my gameplay too bad if gold goes the way of the dodo I suppose. That would mean probably a gem based economy and lots of trade channel reading. Probably more time on trade forums than on the actual game. Oh well, lets see what blizzard can do.


If they don't plan on doing anything and just letting the inflation stay, all they need to do is raise the cap on the gold AH and gold will remain useful as currency. The impact will mainly be that it will be easier for people to make radiant stars and marquises (because these are fixed values) and repairs will be almost pointless because they are so cheap. Picking up gold piles will be less effective than before as well since those values didn't change either.

The one workable gold sink in game (the AH cut) will remain as effective because its % based. Imagine you just added two zeroes to the price of everything on the AH. You still need to basically find a godly item to be able to get another godly item. Its just the amount of gold for it is that much higher. Any savings you had that were in pure gold (or gems which were just a proxy for gold) were devalued whereas anything you had in items probably retained its value.


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