Diablo III

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Obby » Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:00 pm UTC

It is easier. I steamroll everything in mp0, but mp1 I can no longer faceroll elite packs in acts 2 through 4. I still kill them relatively quickly, but I have to actually worry about dodging the desecrator pools and such, whereas in mp0 I can ignore almost everything except reflect damage and arcane.

Been saving up my cash, made around 10 million in the past week or so and am planning on buying some good legendary upgrades for my wizard. Hopefully I can afford a mid-range mempo or a decent lacuni's. I'm leaning towards the lacuni's, since I need more run speed.

Edit: damn page toppers... response to this:

Chen wrote:Act 3 MP0 seems easier than Act 1 MP1 to me. You don't get the boost in MF/GF/XP for the MP level but the hoards of creatures in act 3 let you kill many more monsters which is better for xp and drops. Since Act 3 monsters are level 63 even at MP0 the quality of drops won't change between that and MP1.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Chen » Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:23 pm UTC

Tyrael's might is pretty underrated I find for run speed. Its what I'm running on my Wizard since I would lose a ton of Vit and Resists if I traded my pants for Inna's and a Lacuni with Int and Crit is absurdly expensive (compared to a cheap rare with int and crit). Tyrael's might with 2 sockets is in the 10 million range, 1 socket is in the millions and no sockets (and some random affix instead) is 1 mil or less. I got pretty lucky and found a 3 socket one for around 15 mil but the normal price for those was up in the 30-50 mil range last I looked.

The only downside is you lose the ability to use Tal Rasha's chest for the attack speed. Still one with 4% damage to elites and 10% damage to demons is pretty damn good especially if you're mainly farming act 3 which is either demons or super easy to kill skeletons.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Obby » Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:37 pm UTC

While true, my chest armor already has absurdly high base int and over 200 vit with 65 all res and two sockets. The only upgrade I would get with a TM would be the movement speed, and then I'd lose a lot of vit and/or int and be out 15 million gold or more. Alternatively, my bracer's only really good stat is the int and the crit chance, and when I checked yesterday I could grab a lacuni's with higher crit chance than what I have now for less than 10 million and gain the run speed, while only losing about 50 or 60 int and losing almost no vit or all res at all. To me, the lacuni's makes more sense.

But, I've also been kicking around a mempo or maybe some new belt (since my current belt is pretty terrible) but belts can be expensive if I get one that's not an incremental upgrade.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Chen » Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:49 pm UTC

Obby wrote:While true, my chest armor already has absurdly high base int and over 200 vit with 65 all res and two sockets. The only upgrade I would get with a TM would be the movement speed, and then I'd lose a lot of vit and/or int and be out 15 million gold or more. Alternatively, my bracer's only really good stat is the int and the crit chance, and when I checked yesterday I could grab a lacuni's with higher crit chance than what I have now for less than 10 million and gain the run speed, while only losing about 50 or 60 int and losing almost no vit or all res at all. To me, the lacuni's makes more sense.

But, I've also been kicking around a mempo or maybe some new belt (since my current belt is pretty terrible) but belts can be expensive if I get one that's not an incremental upgrade.


Run speed is pretty much the most important affix you can get for efficient farming. So you're kinda stuck between either Lacuni's, Tyrael's or Inna's pants (or possibly the Compass Rose set). I was thinking the same as you until I looked for regular rare bracers and found ones with 150 int, 5.5% crit and some vitality for practically nothing. At which point Tyrael's might was the easiest choice for me since I got high int and high all res at the cost of the Vit I had on my old one. If your pants are not super good consider Inna's pants with Int. I think they're also in the 10 million range and you get Int, crit, run speed and attack speed along with 2 sockets. You do lose your defensive stats though which is why I didn't get these instead.

For Belts really Witching Hour is by far the best. With attack speed and crit damage its pretty much the best belt for everyone. The fact it defaults to having Int on it also means you can get the cheaper versions for your wizard without needing to roll another stat.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby mosc » Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:54 pm UTC

Chen is correct. 24% movement speed is becoming increasingly a requirement of effective farming in D3. Boots are the easiest piece leaving three popular pieces as noted: Lacuni Prowlers, Tyrael's Might, and Inna's Temperance. Any dex class the choice is easy, they run inna's pants which are awesome. For str and int classes things are more complicated. All classes benefit from perfectly rolled lacuni prowlers but they're quite expensive. Inna's pants offer staggering bonus mods but are never going to have good stats for a non-dex class. This leaves Tyrael's might. It's really a very underrated piece. The strength ones are worth quite a bit because of this. For int classes, running Tyrael's might means missing out on the tal rasha and zunimassa's chest piece though, which is a real shame. They offer great stats. Because of this, I'd highly recommend getting a mediocre set of lacuni prowlers on any int class. Strength classes, I recommend Tyrael's might. Dex classes, you REALLY shouldn't even be thinking about anything besides inna's pants. Int classes shouldn't cry too much though. Witching hour is a great consolation prize with it's always-int rolling nature. The strength class equivalent advantage is built into stormshield, which is increasingly falling out of favor with barbs let alone used by ANY other class. Though my barb rocks a crit chance stormshield and I'm proud to say it.

Tyrael's might brings up the most underrated mod in the game though, damage against elites. You should be treating that mod almost like it's attack speed. It's incredibly powerful base damage against the only enemies against which your damage matters. Damage against elites is a very powerful mod that should not be overlooked just because it doesn't show in your damage number. I've always wished the damage number would include a second number which shows the damage based on your last attack. Damage vs demons and your last attack was against a demon? Show with that added. Show that you just used a fist of thunder attack which does more than 100%. Also you have a belt that gives 10% more, so include that. It was an elite demon you swung at? Put that in there. Fist of thunder is a lightning skill so you get a bonus from your won kim lau? Put that in there too. If people don't see the number with all those factors included, they don't evaluate the mods correctly.

Monk to me is the worst with that. Won kim lau can spawn a socket, crit damage, and a ridiculous inherent mod that adds lightning damage (fist of thunder and cyclone are both lightning damage people!). Every 2 weapon monk should use one. Better to have one with high damage too but even a crappy one with all three of those things is going to hit like a tank. Base damage is averaged between the two weapons. The weapon damage is half as valuable to a dual wielder as it would be to a single weapon wielder. HALF! All those extra mods though are NOT halved. Next, lets talk about the SOJ which can offer +lightning damage. To a monk, that's straight up damage to everything they use! On top of that it has the already mentioned damage against elites and if you're willing to spend can also have bonus fists of thunder damage. throw on a monk-only helm for more fist of thunder damage as well while you're at it and you have a character with a staggering amount of damage not shown in the number. Monks are by far the most glaring example because they basically use 1 attack skill and a hybrid skill cyclone to do damage with the rest of their skills being buffs and/or defense. 1 element, 1 main skill, people should be milking this singular focus with +element damage and +skill damage mods.

EDIT: Chen, witching hours are clearly the best for int classes and monks but they have competition on demon hunters and barbs.

Demon hunters want the 130 dex inna's set bonus and the best way to get that is inna's belt. Comparing 90 dex and 1% crit chance to 9% attack and 50% crit damage may seem like a one sided fight but that's not what it is because of the set bonus. Demon hunters aren't going to use inna's helm or weapon so the only other way to get that 130 is on chest or belt. Inna's chest means no natalya's set bonus, no discipline from chest, no evasive fire bonus damage, etc. The belt then becomes 220dex and 1% crit vs 9% attack and 50% crit damage (or 8/35 if you are poor) which is a much more interesting comparison. My DH uses natalya's mark and it's required helm/chest/boots for the set bonus meaning Inna's belt actually is better than the witching hour. Inna's belt only spawns 1 extra mod though so if you're talking about the most godly witching hour ever I'm sure it's extra pickup radius or similar mod would make it more valuable than the inna's belt but that's another tax bracket. I recommend Inna's belt, not witching hour, for DH.

For barbs, non-witching hour belts can offer life steal. This makes witching hours hard to deal with for barbs. IK belts also spawn every time with added fury and a primary attack skill buff (you can get it on a witching hour to be fair but it would take a slot). Lamentation offers 1% crit, life steal, and enough room for a lot of stats + resistances as well. Most lamentations suck but the best ones will totally out class most witching hours. Barbs need extra life generation (life steal in this case) more than the other classes, which can make it feel like life steal on a belt is a hard requirement. Definitely makes shopping for weapons more flexible.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Metaphysician » Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:40 pm UTC

mosc wrote:Monk to me is the worst with that. Won kim lau can spawn a socket, crit damage, and a ridiculous inherent mod that adds lightning damage (fist of thunder and cyclone are both lightning damage people!). Every 2 weapon monk should use one. Better to have one with high damage too but even a crappy one with all three of those things is going to hit like a tank. Base damage is averaged between the two weapons. The weapon damage is half as valuable to a dual wielder as it would be to a single weapon wielder. HALF! All those extra mods though are NOT halved. Next, lets talk about the SOJ which can offer +lightning damage. To a monk, that's straight up damage to everything they use! On top of that it has the already mentioned damage against elites and if you're willing to spend can also have bonus fists of thunder damage. throw on a monk-only helm for more fist of thunder damage as well while you're at it and you have a character with a staggering amount of damage not shown in the number. Monks are by far the most glaring example because they basically use 1 attack skill and a hybrid skill cyclone to do damage with the rest of their skills being buffs and/or defense. 1 element, 1 main skill, people should be milking this singular focus with +element damage and +skill damage mods.


I realized this a while ago on my Monk, so many people strive for the highest possible paper doll damage, which is all well and good, but exploiting the FoT/SWcyclone/ lightning damage with WKL gives massive unseen bonuses (my wkl has 750 damage so I run it with an 1100 dmg weapon that doesn't have the greatest stats but gets the job done). My paper doll dps is around 50k with my buffs active but I tore through act IV like it was nothing, the only packs I died to were reflect dmg because it was 3:30am and I wasn't paying attention. The Diablo fight was a joke. After running act IV I had enough to buy a decent Inna's chest to go with my Inna's headpiece, I am planning on picking up pants next for the movement speed but I need to get really expensive pants at this point to avoid losing the resists on my current pants.

It should be said that I have very little life regen, life on hit, or lifesteal and I primarily live off health globes and life on kill.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby mosc » Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:47 pm UTC

get inna's pants. If you want resistance, get a cindercoat and run a fire resist monk. Cindercoats get ridiculous stats and resistances for no money. With inna's pants + inna's helm you can get the only set bonus you'll need without using the chest or belt. Seriously though, every monk and demon hunter needs inna's pants. No matter how shitty or how much stats you lose. Get one.

Also, get your main weapon to have life steal and swing some life on hit in there if you can.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Obby » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:27 am UTC

Yeah, I took your guys advice and bought a semi-decent Tyrael's Might with high int and 2 open sockets for 4 mil. Not a bad grab. I also picked up a Mempo with int/vit to help replace the life lost from losing my chest, and a nice Vile Ward for an overall boost for around 4 mil each. Also grabbed some Depth Diggers that had waaaay better stats than my pants for 2.5 mil, which I thought was a steal considering all the others (including rares) were priced around 4 mil with worse stats.

I still have around 14 mil left to spend... Not really sure where to go from here: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Obby ... ro/1322429
I'm thinking I'll just save the cash up until I can afford a good Witching Hour, but that's gonna take a while.

Edit: Looking at my character sheet, looks like I probably should stop stacking all res... 712 right now, which is a little over 70% reduction...I could probably drop some of that from my one ring and amulet and get more offensive stats there I suppose.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby mosc » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:15 pm UTC

You can get a junky witching hour for like 8m, no doubt a huge dps upgrade. Is your only pickup on your belt or something? Can't check your link from work.

I can't believe you can get a 2 socket might for that cheap, ridiculous. My barb would kill for one of those with strength.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Obby » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:31 pm UTC

My belt:

90 int, 131 vit, 42 all res, 18 mf.

It's pretty crappy, but up until now I haven't really been willing to lose the vit. I have no pickup radius on any of my gear, which is annoying but not game breaking for me. I usually only really feel it when I need to pick up life orbs. I checked Witching Hour prices last night, and they were starting around 10 million for pretty bad ones which was more than I was willing to spend. I figure I'll wait until I can drop 20 million or more on one before I buy that way I can get a half decent one, which shouldn't take me more than a couple weeks of farming (assuming I don't get another awesome drop to sell).
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Metaphysician » Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:21 am UTC

mosc wrote:get inna's pants. If you want resistance, get a cindercoat and run a fire resist monk. Cindercoats get ridiculous stats and resistances for no money. With inna's pants + inna's helm you can get the only set bonus you'll need without using the chest or belt. Seriously though, every monk and demon hunter needs inna's pants. No matter how shitty or how much stats you lose. Get one.

Also, get your main weapon to have life steal and swing some life on hit in there if you can.


Running fire resist monk means I'll have to re-gear my entire monk, which will be pretty expensive. I had a cindercoat before, but it was pretty bad (like, probably couldn't sell it for more than 70k... bought it for 20k). I'm planning on picking up Inna's pants soon. I got a legendary WD drop that I think should sell for some decent gold so hopefully I will be able to put something together off that. But yeah, Inna's pants are definitely my highest priority purchase right now... after that, we'll see... I think I would like to switch over to fire resist eventually.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Metaphysician » Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:21 pm UTC

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Notagain-1124/hero/26072354

Here is my monk profile. Now, I know it's pretty bad, as it is I farm pretty easily on MP1 and I do OK on MP2. I have been thinking about picking up a Skorn and going with Tempest Rush to change things up but I am not sure if that will be better for farming or not, or if I have the gear to support that. My other strategy is to slowly upgrade my kit by saving 15-20 million up at a time and buying actual quality pieces instead of upgrading tiny bits at a time for less. Any advice on what I should replace in what order and what stats I should focus on would be great. I am trying to keep in mind that as my DPS increases significantly I will need a little less in the way of All Resist. Also it would be immensely helpful I think if anybody has ideas about how to switch over to Fire Resistance in a way that won't take months. I don't wanna just blow all my money replacing my current gear so that I can benefit from cindercoat, but as I look at upgrading my gear, I will probably be taking a significant hit in the resists dept if I switch to FR slowly... of course I guess my biggest upgrades right now should probably be my weapons anyway so no worries about resists there.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Mishrak » Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:47 pm UTC

mosc wrote:EDIT: Chen, witching hours are clearly the best for int classes and monks but they have competition on demon hunters and barbs.

Demon hunters want the 130 dex inna's set bonus and the best way to get that is inna's belt. Comparing 90 dex and 1% crit chance to 9% attack and 50% crit damage may seem like a one sided fight but that's not what it is because of the set bonus. Demon hunters aren't going to use inna's helm or weapon so the only other way to get that 130 is on chest or belt. Inna's chest means no natalya's set bonus, no discipline from chest, no evasive fire bonus damage, etc. The belt then becomes 220dex and 1% crit vs 9% attack and 50% crit damage (or 8/35 if you are poor) which is a much more interesting comparison. My DH uses natalya's mark and it's required helm/chest/boots for the set bonus meaning Inna's belt actually is better than the witching hour. Inna's belt only spawns 1 extra mod though so if you're talking about the most godly witching hour ever I'm sure it's extra pickup radius or similar mod would make it more valuable than the inna's belt but that's another tax bracket. I recommend Inna's belt, not witching hour, for DH.

For barbs, non-witching hour belts can offer life steal. This makes witching hours hard to deal with for barbs. IK belts also spawn every time with added fury and a primary attack skill buff (you can get it on a witching hour to be fair but it would take a slot). Lamentation offers 1% crit, life steal, and enough room for a lot of stats + resistances as well. Most lamentations suck but the best ones will totally out class most witching hours. Barbs need extra life generation (life steal in this case) more than the other classes, which can make it feel like life steal on a belt is a hard requirement. Definitely makes shopping for weapons more flexible.


Don't forget the +7 or 8% elemental damage on the Inna's belt. That's not to be underestimated. Plus you can get really high dex rolls on Inna's belt. I prefer to use one with vitality rather than a high dex roll as a DH. I'd have to get an absolutely elite level Witching Hour to significantly outdamage my Inna's belt and as you mentioned, there's no chance of me dropping my Natalya's Chest w/ all res and spike trap damage for Inna's Chest either. D3 Profile

4 piece Natalya's is a bit limiting unfortunately. The Nat's helm is complete crap (esp compared to even a lower end Mempo), even with a crit chance roll on it. You can get discipline elsewhere (Stone of Jordan, Quiver, Offhand (Danetta's/Rare), Chest) and have better stats than the Nat's. Nat's ring is solid, but lacking sorely in crit damage or crit chance unless you want to pay a significant fortune for a double attack stat one. Legacy Nat's is a different story though. If you have a good set of it, you can do amazing things.

Once I can get enough gold to upgrade this Calamity, I'll be switching away from my Nat's ring to a Unity or something similar. Also yes I know my hellfire ring is complete crap. :)

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Metaphysician » Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:18 am UTC

Made some adjustments to my gear, crit up to about 37%, picked up Inna's Pants, replaced Inna's Chest. DPS went up 7k, from 41k to 48k. Resists went up by 40 as well, above 700 now. Farming is much much faster with the increased movement speed, cut things down to about an hour and a half for a full act III farm.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Chen » Mon Dec 03, 2012 1:27 pm UTC

At around 50k dps I'd imagine that farming MP0 would be FAR more efficient than farming even MP1. You want to be able to farm at a pace where you're practically one shotting white mobs. Also there are parts of act 3 that are pretty pointless to farm. The towers are only good if you need quick valor. Depths 1 and 3 are laid out in annoying ways and have a bunch of backtracking that wastes time. Similarly full clearing Crater 1 is not great due to all the dead ends. If you want to keep running the whole act, I suggest trying to never backtrack. If you hit a dead end, port out and move on to the next zone. I suspect it'll go significantly faster.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Obby » Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:17 pm UTC

I dunno, my Monk was breezing through mp1 almost as fast as mp0 at that DPS due to all the hidden DPS buffs that monks have that don't show up on the character sheet. Now that she's up to 68k sheet DPS, I can handle mp2 okay on my monk, since that turns out to be around 110k actual sustained DPS through Sweeping Wind, MoC and Blazing Wrath, plus the added bonuses from Faith in the Light and re-casting MoC for the double benefit and I can push short bursts of 160k or higher to deal with rough elite packs. However, I typically don't do mp2 since I can tackle mp1 faster.

But, yes, generally mp0 will be far more efficient than mp1 at 50k DPS. You just can't rely on what your character sheet says to be what your actual DPS output is.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby DaBigCheez » Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:36 pm UTC

Just started playing again after a roughly five-six month hiatus. I'm now able to make progress through Act III Inferno without much trouble, whereas before I was getting hilariously stonewalled and dying in two hits. Now, my sword-and-board barbarian's having few issues surviving or killing things - I can pretty much just facetank an entire spawn, so long as I don't just chill with a two packs of Molten+Desecrator+Fire Chains+Plagued elites.

However, my DPS is currently pitiful - about 10k sheet DPS. I am running a full tank build, so switching passives and skills could probably get me up around 15k, but I'm led to believe that's still pretty terrible. I'd like to stay sword-and-board as I upgrade my gear; I prefer that playstyle to the whirlwind/throw builds that seem to be popular judging by the forums, and I acknowledge I'll probably never clear as quickly/efficiently as one of those builds. What should I be looking for as I replace my old gear? I've been trying to get block chance wherever I can, allres around 500 base, a good amount of vit and armor, lots of life-on-hit, and then pick up strength and DPS stats where I can; as I'm upgrading, should I just focus on more strength/attackspeed/crit (without losing too many defensive stats), or is there something fancy I should be on the lookout for?
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Obby » Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:58 pm UTC

Just about everyone wants crit chance and crit damage as their DPS stats for the pieces of gear that can roll those stats (jewelry, helms, bracers, gloves, and some legendary pieces in other spots that are usually really expensive). In general, aim to get your crit chance to at minimum 30% and your crit damage to 150% or higher, neither of which should be that difficult. That should be a good base to build off of for the rest of your gear upgrades. IAS is also important alongside crit and crit damage, but typically a piece of gear with all three of these stats (usually called "trifecta" stats) is going to be prohibitively expensive. If you like IAS, you can try to mix and match, and save some money by getting, say, gloves with IAS and crit, rings with crit and crit damage, and an amulet with IAS and crit damage. That way you maintain a balance across your stats without spending millions of gold per item.

You can still do the typical WW build for a barb with a shield, but your DPS will not be as high considering your shield will not have the same stats as a weapon. Considering how easy it is to survive mp0, I would tell you to swap your skills around and keep your gear the same, then figure out where this new build could use improvements.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Chen » Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:01 pm UTC

DaBigCheez wrote:Just started playing again after a roughly five-six month hiatus. I'm now able to make progress through Act III Inferno without much trouble, whereas before I was getting hilariously stonewalled and dying in two hits. Now, my sword-and-board barbarian's having few issues surviving or killing things - I can pretty much just facetank an entire spawn, so long as I don't just chill with a two packs of Molten+Desecrator+Fire Chains+Plagued elites.

However, my DPS is currently pitiful - about 10k sheet DPS. I am running a full tank build, so switching passives and skills could probably get me up around 15k, but I'm led to believe that's still pretty terrible. I'd like to stay sword-and-board as I upgrade my gear; I prefer that playstyle to the whirlwind/throw builds that seem to be popular judging by the forums, and I acknowledge I'll probably never clear as quickly/efficiently as one of those builds. What should I be looking for as I replace my old gear? I've been trying to get block chance wherever I can, allres around 500 base, a good amount of vit and armor, lots of life-on-hit, and then pick up strength and DPS stats where I can; as I'm upgrading, should I just focus on more strength/attackspeed/crit (without losing too many defensive stats), or is there something fancy I should be on the lookout for?


Right now mid level gear is extremely cheap. The key is how you search. Searching for gear with 100+ Str/Vit and good All res is going to cost you. However, drop that down to sub 100 (even up to 90s) drastically reduces the price. Drop the value to 70 and you can get things for practically nothing. I geared up my Barb for maybe 10 million and 7 million of that was the 2 weapons. Try searching as follows:

Helm: All res 65, Str 90, Vit 70, socket, crit chance if you have money.
Shoulders: Str 90, Vit 70, All res 70
Chest: 3 sockets, Vit 90, All res 65, Str
Legs: 2 sockets, Vit 90, All res 65, Str
Bracers: Str 90, Vit 90, Crit chance (all res if you have money, maybe lower Str and Vit to 70 and add all res 65)
Gloves: Crit chance 7, Crit damage, Str 90, Vit 70
Rings: Crit chance 5, Crit damage, Str (Vit if you have more money)
Amulet: Crit chance 7, crit damage, LOH
Waist: IK belt (you can get ones for EXTREMELY cheap) or Pride of Cassius with life steal (this one is a bargain too AND it provides 10% run speed).
Boots: You can get some very high Str firewalkers for extremely cheap.
Shield: Crit chance, All res 70, high block chance

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Re: Diablo III

Postby DaBigCheez » Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:01 pm UTC

Thanks for the advice - I'd already been following those general guidelines (getting 3 pieces of gear, where the stats are e.g. 100 A/100 B/50 C, 100 A/50 B/100 C, 50 A/100 B/100C, is likely to be much much cheaper than getting even one piece of 100 A/100 B/100 C gear), trying to mix-and-match between slots accordingly, and making sure to search for the right stats in the right places (Strength being much easier to get on shoulders, while chests spawn with higher Vit, and that kind of thing, iirc). Aside from looking at crit, that's basically the gearing strategy I've been following thus far, though I've got a cheap Helm of Command for the block chance, and Blackthorne's Breeches (considering getting the Medal as well, for the LoH and set bonus). I've got about 3m lying around to upgrade my gear with; I've got a half-decent sword that I picked up for cheap (~830 DPS, socketed for LoH, a smidgen of str/vit) and a random rare shield that had allres and 28% block, so could probably stand to upgrade those too.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Chen » Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:00 pm UTC

For weapons I only really look for socket + crit damage. Then the highest dps possible. The socket should have the highest emerald you can put in it. Its one of the biggest increases in DPS you can get. Similarly for a shield I'd look for the high crit chance. I think you can get 10% crit chance on a shield which is HUGE. For weapons I wouldn't pay more for any base stats. I'm pretty sure you can get decent weapons (in the 1k dps range) with a socket and crit chance. For SURE you can get a weapon with just a socket in the 1k dps range for cheap.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Mishrak » Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:20 pm UTC

Leech is something else to look for. Secondly, adding a primary stat on a weapon boosts the dps quite a bit. People underestimate the gains from a primary stat on a weapon. I'd rather have a 950 with 100-150 strength than a 1k without it, assuming identical stats, as a rough example. If you can't find leech, then life on hit works well too. However all of those will drive the cost up. If all else fails, just search for one with a slightly lower average that has higher CD, a primary stat and maybe leech. Barb has some nice leech passives so it's not a huge deal, but it's worth searching for.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:21 pm UTC

Around what dps is '%'age of damage converted to life' start outperforming LoH?
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Mishrak » Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:29 pm UTC

Probably pretty quickly. LoH is nice but leech is infinitely better as it scales with your damage where LoH just stays exactly the same.

Given the choice, I'd chose leech. However, it's nice to have both. Especially for classes not named Barbarian that don't get nearly as many leech options.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby philsov » Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:39 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Around what dps is '%'age of damage converted to life' start outperforming LoH?


Strongly depends on what skills you use. The LoH coefficient varies pretty widely, even after taking into account the AoE (or lack thereof) of abilities.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Metaphysician » Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:36 am UTC

Mishrak wrote:Probably pretty quickly. LoH is nice but leech is infinitely better as it scales with your damage where LoH just stays exactly the same.

Given the choice, I'd chose leech. However, it's nice to have both. Especially for classes not named Barbarian that don't get nearly as many leech options.


Also it's important to remember that leech is amazing for farming on inferno, but not as good for doing boss runs and the percentage of life leeched from damage is drastically reduced against bosses.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Xeio » Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:17 am UTC

Hrmmm, so I can do up to about MP3 if I'm going for keys (just went through and got the plans for the infernal machine). Did Blizzard remove timers and health regen from elite groups I'm guessing? Maybe that fight was shorter than I thought (extra health fallen angels, with their shield that's icky), but I'm pretty sure I died a few times and the mobs didn't regen at all.

My wizard. The gem on my weapon should actually be a +70%, but the cache doesn't yet seem to have updated. I need to probably just dump money into it (if I ever get money). I think I've spent <1M on equipment, most expensive piece was Tyrael's Might for 320k or so.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Obby » Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:49 am UTC

I would strongly recommend against a 2h for a wizard. The DPS may be higher than a 1h, but sources add so much to your damage it's really not even worth it to consider a 2h anymore, especially since so many wizard builds rely on attack speed to some degree. Though, this will be limited by your budget, as good sources are often very expensive. If you can snag a Triumvirate, Oculus, or Chantodo's on the cheap, that would be ideal. Wands, fortunately, are significantly cheaper for a decent one. I got a 1035 DPS black damage wand with crit damage, max AP and int for around 300k which works really well with the Triumvirate I found. If you can't find a good source for cheap, I may have a decent rare one that I can give you if you're playing in the Americas. It won't match any of the sources I listed above, so keep an eye out for those still, but it is good for a rare and will be a good start.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Chen » Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:15 pm UTC

Mishrak wrote:Probably pretty quickly. LoH is nice but leech is infinitely better as it scales with your damage where LoH just stays exactly the same.

Given the choice, I'd chose leech. However, it's nice to have both. Especially for classes not named Barbarian that don't get nearly as many leech options.


Leech is reduced by a flat 80% in Inferno. You need significant DPS before leech beats LOH. A one hander can get up to 900 (maybe 1000?) LOH and I believe they can only get 3% leech. For simplicity lets assume a 0.2 coefficient for LOH. Here we need 30k dps to make them even. However, the issue comes that getting more than 6% leech is difficult whereas you can get LOH on rings and amulets in addition to weapons. For melee classes where the coefficients for LOH can be higher for their single target attacks (bash, deadly reach etc) you need significantly higher dps to make leech the better option (3% leech vs 900 LOH requires 150k dps to break even on a 1.0 coefficient attack).

Xeio wrote:Hrmmm, so I can do up to about MP3 if I'm going for keys (just went through and got the plans for the infernal machine). Did Blizzard remove timers and health regen from elite groups I'm guessing? Maybe that fight was shorter than I thought (extra health fallen angels, with their shield that's icky), but I'm pretty sure I died a few times and the mobs didn't regen at all.

My wizard. The gem on my weapon should actually be a +70%, but the cache doesn't yet seem to have updated. I need to probably just dump money into it (if I ever get money). I think I've spent <1M on equipment, most expensive piece was Tyrael's Might for 320k or so.


I agree with Obby on this. And a decent damage Triumvirate is not that expensive (I had trouble selling some the other day actually). You do NEED a black weapon (i.e., no +elemental damage just +regular damage) to take advantage of the Triumvirate but its generally worth it. A 2 hander can be ok with Disintegrate but overall without very high DPS disintegrate doesn't tend to work very effectively. I'd try something like MM-Seeker, Arcane Orb-Celestial Orb, Arcane Hydra, Diamond Skin-Crystal Shell, Teleport-Fracture and either Force or Storm armor until your dps gets higher and Disintegrate/Archon is effective.

What will really help your dps is getting some crit on your gear. Your bracers, gloves and rings are all missing it. I'm fairly sure you could find some 200 int, 8 crit, 30 crit damage gloves for relatively cheap. Similarly some bracers with 150 int and 5% crit shouldn't be very expensive. That alone should give a pretty dramatic boost to your dps. Find some rings with crit/crit damage and it'll increase pretty quick.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby mosc » Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:55 pm UTC

LOH vs leech is build specific. The guy asking wants to run tank, which relies on frenzy and revenge, meaning life on hit dominates life steal. He'll be attacking around twice a second and will have low DPS. Revenge also packs big life gain on it's own.

I run the build you're looking for DaBigCheez, my barb is 60k DPS unbuffed, 110k buffed (the number my revenge is based on when I use it) WITH a shield. You need to compromise on defense some. Battle Rage instead of ignore pain helps a lot. The big advantage with a rageless tank build is that you can run the 25% damage buff. I run this along with superstition and the crit chance, crit damage passive. Running these three skills will up your damage nearly double. Next, you NEED to get a crit damage+socket+LOH/LL weapon. It's your main source of crit damage, it needs to provide >100% crit damage. The next thing is you need a crit chance stormshield. There's no way around it. The stormshield is the entire reason to go sword and board with it's massive stats. It rolls only 1 mod sadly and if it's not crit chance, you're just costing yourself way too much damage. Don't sweat the block too much, it already provides a lot of defense at low block (It's nice to be 19% at lowest too). Some people don't understand that block's usefulness is tied to your block value and that's only raised by the ilevel of your shield. In other words, you MUST get an ilevel 63 shield with crit chance. Stormshield is the easy way to do it, they're all 63 and all have the max 9% block added. They can also roll 5% more block ON TOP OF THAT more than a rare (for 34% max) if you want to pay. If you go with these options (an offensive skill, a pair of offensive passives, a high crit damage weapon, and a crit chance stormshield), your damage will be serviceable despite the shield. You'll also find that killing quicker makes tanking easier. The time to kill getting shorter lowers the number of times you'll be frozen, get multiple arcanes converging at you, etc. You could trade superstition for weapon master if you want (if you do this, you want to be using a sword or dagger. The 15% damage is better than 10% crit chance because you will never have great crit damage) but not using it lets you go with a cheaper weapon skin, specifically a barb only weapon or a spear.

The other thing to keep in mind is nobody will understand the damage you do. You're 25% passive doesn't show up unless you're at full fury but for you that's easy to maintain. Your frenzy buff (you should use the one that buffs damage) makes your revenge hit considerably harder. Add on the usual barb hidden damage from battle rage and you have nearly a 2 to 1 damage difference between actual damage and paper damage. Monks with a lightning FOT SOJ and WKL can probably hide more damage than a sword and board barb, but not by much. The big issue with the build is the damage output requires you to be beat on. Particularly playing with the freeze lock sorcies cuts a lot of damage, as does generally playing with meele classes.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby DaBigCheez » Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:22 pm UTC

mosc - Thanks for the info, I'll definitely look into that! Probably won't be cheap to shell out the cash for a decent Stormshield, but with that + Helm of Command block chance should be high enough even if I'm not going for tip-top base block on the shield. Figured that it was probably a good idea to swap some defense passives for offense; I've been running Sidearm with my Frenzy thus far, on the theory that I clear massive crowds with Revenge quickly-ish enough and Sidearm helps more with the single-target damage I'm weak on, as well as (IIRC) giving more healing power through LoH in single-target scenarios.

Skull Grasp/Justice Lantern worth it, or don't bother/just go for raw DPS rings instead? I'll probably be upgrading my weapon and shield before I really start mucking with the rest of my gear too much, but I seem to remember liking the look of them...
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Re: Diablo III

Postby mosc » Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:26 pm UTC

I am pretty sure additional targets hit by sidearm do not trigger LOH. The way they do LOH is based on the attack skill's prot rate. Most of the additional aoe damage is not going to trigger multiple LOH instances. For example, a witch doctor dumping acid cloud on a crowd of 10 ememies is not going to get 10 hits of LOH, they're going to get 1. It's also not going to trigger LOH each second while they stand in the damage. The skill doesn't prot that way. Similarly, some skills (specifically WW) do not prot each attack. I prefer the bigger frenzy because it does the same damage single and gives like a 15% buff to revenge when you're wound up. They're comparable though.

I do like the skull grasp because you can get one fairly cheap with bonus frenzy damage. I use one out of your pricerange that also has 3% crit chance as it's random mod too, which does good raw damage as well. Speaking of frenzy damage, make sure it's on your belt. How to find a skull grasp with frenzy damage: 1) set the AH to search for armor, ALL armor types (not rings). 2)Put on 100 strength, loh, attack speed, and frenzy damage (LOH filters out witching hours). Voala! Strength skull grasps with frenzy damage. Should be a few 100k. Also similarly priced should be a lamentation belt with strength, vit, and frenzy damage (res costs more money), and a % crit for kicks. I don't like IK because the added fury bonus means more time to charge up. Those are both ways I milk more offense out of the tank build structure at the cost of defense. The stormshield gives you big defensive bonuses over standard WW barbs in terms of block, all resistance, and the regularly forgotten ARMOR value. Shields have huge armor which is hard to replace! My barb runs around with over 7k armor without an armor boosting passive skill. Try THAT on a WW barb suckers! I also block 40% of attacks (32 SS + 8 helm of command, as you mentioned. BTW you can get 4.5% crit chance on one they roll 4! mods). I bring this up not to gloat but to re-assure you you'll still be extremely tanky even going after these offensive pieces. The only way an elite WW barb competes defensively is just doing such a huge amount of damage that their life steal becomes a full heal nearly every time they touch anything.

On a budget, you should be able to get a 19% block stormshield with 5% crit chance for very cheap as well as a decent strength lamentation with frenzy damage. The skull grasps are in short supply to find one reasonably with str+frenzy but they shouldn't be expensive if you're patient.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Chen » Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:49 pm UTC

mosc wrote:I am pretty sure additional targets hit by sidearm do not trigger LOH. The way they do LOH is based on the attack skill's prot rate. Most of the additional aoe damage is not going to trigger multiple LOH instances. For example, a witch doctor dumping acid cloud on a crowd of 10 ememies is not going to get 10 hits of LOH, they're going to get 1. It's also not going to trigger LOH each second while they stand in the damage. The skill doesn't prot that way. Similarly, some skills (specifically WW) do not prot each attack. I prefer the bigger frenzy because it does the same damage single and gives like a 15% buff to revenge when you're wound up. They're comparable though.


I believe you're right about sidearm axes (proc coefficient of 0), but you're wrong about AOE damage not procing multiple LOH instances. AOE LOH procs (and any other procs which follow the same rules) are pretty much the whole way builds like the WW barb and CMWW wizards work. Generally AOE skills have a reduced proc coefficient specifically for that reason. Example: Arcane orb is a baseline 0.33 coefficient. However changing to the Celestial Orb rune (which is wider and hits more targets since it passes through them) coefficient is only 0.2. Acid rain was a funny example to use because it is by FAR the best procing skill for witch doctors. I believe its currently bugged so that each casting stacks the proc rate (but not the damage). Even without that, the proc rate on acid raid is apparently 2.0/enemy/tick right at the center and gets weaker the further out you move (down to something like 0.4/enemy/tick at the outer edge).

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Re: Diablo III

Postby mosc » Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:05 pm UTC

Everything I learn about Diablo 3 mechanics just makes less and less sense. It's incredibly nuanced on stuff that has ZERO visibility to a player not reading a bunch of forum posts from the developers.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:10 pm UTC

Proc on hit coefficients should be more visible, somehow, but honestly shouldn't be surprising that something that hits 10x for 5% weapon damage should proc less frequently than something that hits for 50% weapon damage infrequently.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Obby » Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:11 pm UTC

Yeah. It would make more sense to me to either scale the amount of life leech/steal on weapons to make coefficients unnecessary, or at least update the tooltips to state the information about coefficients on the skills. They already have an option to turn on/off the advanced tooltips, this could just be another piece of text when you have that turned on. Stats and complexity don't scare people away when you give people the option to turn them off and not see them.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Chen » Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:39 pm UTC

Obby wrote:Yeah. It would make more sense to me to either scale the amount of life leech/steal on weapons to make coefficients unnecessary, or at least update the tooltips to state the information about coefficients on the skills. They already have an option to turn on/off the advanced tooltips, this could just be another piece of text when you have that turned on. Stats and complexity don't scare people away when you give people the option to turn them off and not see them.


I don't see how scaling the leech/steal on weapons would work since some skills just hit FAR more frequently than others which is what necessitated the proc coefficients to begin with. More visibility would certainly be nice though. A second advanced tooltip button would probably be the best way to do this so as not to just generally confuse people.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Obby » Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:31 pm UTC

Yeah, it was just an idea though. I think more information is a better idea anyway.

So I have three characters that I like to play (Spin2win Barb, Archon Wiz, and FoT/SW Monk). All are fun to play, but they're all stuck at around 85k DPS each and I can't get any upgrades for any of them without spending 15 million gold or more for any one piece. The only exception to that is my barb's rings, but hopefully that will be changing soon since I put in 3-4 bids last night for rings so hopefully I'll have gotten a couple of them. Not fun. It's kind of disheartening feeling like I'm relegated to mp2 tops for them all until I break down and spend real money on a boatload of gold, or just keep farming in the hopes that a really high-dollar item drops (either so I can use it or so I can sell it).

Fortunately my friend just started playing again, so we're doing hardcore together, which is a lot of fun.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Chen » Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:47 pm UTC

I haven't worked much on my barb (WW around 56k dps) so I know there I can at least not have to spend a fortune to get some upgrades. My Wizard is at about 200k buffed and the only thing I can reasonably afford to upgrade is my Amulet and it seems there I can gain 10-15k dps for around 30 million (which would be all the gold I have at the moment). Everything else either loses me too much All res or would cost in the hundreds of millions to upgrade. Still I can run MP2 in Archon form and usually keep it up for 90% of the time. If I want to just mindlessly grind though MP1 is much faster and has pretty much 0 risk of dropping out of archon unless I die stupidly. I do want to get my barb more geared so I can use him to farm the higher MPs for keys/organs. Archon is pretty terrible for high MPs so I have to change to a different spec if I want to farm keys with the wizard (and its not as effective compared to barbs from what I hear).

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Re: Diablo III

Postby philsov » Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:21 pm UTC

Most of the additional aoe damage is not going to trigger multiple LOH instances. For example, a witch doctor dumping acid cloud on a crowd of 10 ememies is not going to get 10 hits of LOH, they're going to get 1. It's also not going to trigger LOH each second while they stand in the damage. The skill doesn't prot that way.


Is this a recent change? I haven't touched the game in a month+, but Acid Cloud at the time was the go-to skill for LoH and CC proccing. The floor burn tics proced as well, but never stacked. So if you spammed Acid Cloud you never really got to experience tic healing. When you got all 10 hits for LoH (at like 40% or something), it made for some serious gains. Rain of Toads is similar and stacking, but the hit radius is abysmal -- great for things like Ghom though.
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