Diablo III

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Mishrak
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Mishrak » Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:27 am UTC

I don't think you can say that the economy in this game is far and away superior to anything else. It's a pretty basic supply and demand side auction house. Blizzard has done a decent job stemming inflation and price gouging by implementing a 15% deduction, but that's about it. If you want a great economy where players can really influence it, you need to look at EVE's economy.

I thought the barter system in D2 was really fun, as a side note.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Coin » Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:45 pm UTC

Reading this thread I find that I don't really have much of a clue about the endgame. I never even reached Inferno.
What really bugs me about the game is the cheap plot, the hammy acting and the hideous one-liners. So much of the games story is rubbish that I can't make myself complete the game one more time.
While the movies inbetween acts in D2 were instant classics which I can watch over and over the new ones are fancy too look at but not much else.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Mishrak » Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:31 pm UTC

Great things happen when you mute the sound and the text in chat, npc voices, and mash escape a lot.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:32 pm UTC

I absolutely agree that the plot in D3 was paper thin. That said, the plot in D2 was equivalently malnourished.

I also felt the cinematic in D3 were pretty cool, all told. Ain't nothing going to approach the horror of Marius' cowardice and torment, but I thought the notion of Tyraels sacrifice, the gathering of Azmodans armies, and Diablo assaulting heaven was pretty cool.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Lostdreams » Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:37 pm UTC

Chen wrote:
Lostdreams wrote:Hellfire rings are on a lower level than the other legendaries, they dont even have models/particle effects/etc. because they're rings; they only have an icon. Uber bosses were already in game, they just took the amount of bosses in a room, along with their damage, and doubled it. Keywardens are recolors using existing models and they use existing spells. The only new content is the legendary items and only the models are new, spells and spell effects from those were in game already too.


So none of that was new content because it used existing graphics and whatnot? That is absurd logic. They added a new thing to do. Kill keywardens -> get keys -> kill ubers get organs -> make rings. I don't understand how you can't consider this new content.


It was an easy to implement idea that was almost a carbon copy from Diablo 2 using models and enemies already in game. If they advertised "dozens of new enemies" next patch and when it was released you got palette swaps of existing models, you'd probably be pretty pissed.

Chen wrote:
Lostdreams wrote:I never said some of the skills didn't benefit from number twerking or that others weren't working properly altogether. That doesn't fix the ones that aren't.


You said there were no mechanical changes at all to any skills. I refuted that since I KNOW storm armor was changed mechanically. You then said there was poor number twerking that was done. To which I commented on the fact that that "poor" number twerking actually made several skills (hydra, HOTA) perfectly viable to use, thus fixing them.


I will concede the storm armor bit and add that, without checking, there may be a couple that I didn't catch, probably in wizard and monk classes since I played those the least. The overall point was the lack of change to skills that were poorly designed and/or didn't fit playstyle of the class they were assigned to.

The poor number twerking making some skills viable is still poor number twerking. Most skills have a pretty good range of %damage before they result in being too under/overpowered. Any idiot can say "This is underpowered, it needs more damage" and then throw a "percent of existing" increase at it. When a class balance patch happens, you expect that those damage increases/decreases will be thoroughly tested and work properly(for the most part). I guess it was mostly the feeling I had when I looked at the "class changes", realized it was only number twerking, and then saw that not only did they leave out a lot of skills that needed twerking but the number twerking was worse than what I could have guessed at myself in 10 minutes, no hyperbole. It was insulting.

Chen wrote:
Lostdreams wrote:It doesn't metter what their original statement regarding content was, there had to be content additions because they had no endgame content at all. The state of the game was such that leaving it as-is until the expansion would have left them with an even smaller playerbase than they are left with now and there would be few people left to buy the expansion.


Endgame content in Diablo has always been grinding away for better and better gear. Perhaps its an expectations thing? Did people expect more than that? I remember doing boss run after boss run in D2 just to get some new Shako that might be a LITTLE bit better than my old Shako. Or grinding out the Countess for high runes I could trade for other high runes to make an Engima. In D3 its more or less the same. Grind out act 3 for decent drops that sell for gold I can use to buy better gear. I don't have to barter anymore which means I can actually slowly (very slowly) build my way up to that piece of gear instead of just waiting for a great drop and trading it for that piece of gear. At the high end its pretty much exactly the same as D2 since you NEED a good drop to afford a piece of high gear (the money you pick up is fairly negligible unless you're botting).


When making a sequel, people expect the good parts of the original to remain, while being updated or improved, and for new things to be added that are consistent with the original game's feel. D2 had multiple places to farm endgame because different items had different drop rates across areas. Aside from ubers, D3 has act 3 because it's the most efficient and the drops are the same everywhere. It's less than ideal considering it was a step back but it would have been overlooked a little if the new PvP endgame picked up the slack like it was supposed to. Instead, PvP was delayed so long that, by the time they released it, the class damage/defense/itemization stats were so out of balance it plays exactly like D2's PvP, first to hit wins.

Coin wrote:Reading this thread I find that I don't really have much of a clue about the endgame. I never even reached Inferno.
What really bugs me about the game is the cheap plot, the hammy acting and the hideous one-liners. So much of the games story is rubbish that I can't make myself complete the game one more time.
While the movies inbetween acts in D2 were instant classics which I can watch over and over the new ones are fancy too look at but not much else.


The panning of the story seems to be one of the few focal points everyone agrees on.

Izawwlgood wrote:I also felt the cinematic in D3 were pretty cool, all told. Ain't nothing going to approach the horror of Marius' cowardice and torment, but I thought the notion of Tyraels sacrifice, the gathering of Azmodans armies, and Diablo assaulting heaven was pretty cool.


It's been suggested before but Cain's death deserved a cutscene cinematic.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Diadem » Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:04 pm UTC

The cinematics in D3 were, I think, pretty awesome. Tyrael falling from Heaven is awesome, Diablo assaulting Heaven is awesome, etc. Absolutely nothing wrong with the cinematics. In fact I don't hesitate to call them world-class.

However the story line is another matter. It's not that the storyline itself is bad. The overall plot - Diablo manipulating you into killing the other prime evils for you, using Adria as an agent - is pretty good. The way the plot was given shape however is horrible. All the evils are comic-book villains, taunting you at every step. Belial is the Lord of Lies, but his lies are so transparant it makes you wonder who he is trying to fool. Azmodan is supposed to be a brilliant general, but he doesn't do anything beyond basic strategy, and he does tell you every part of his plan in excruciating detail. That just very bad writing, and very annoying. Then Diablo himself does the EXACT SAME THING ALL OVER AGAIN in A4.
"My demons will overrun heaven!"
* Player kills a bunch of demons *
"It makes no difference! You shall never close the hell rift!"
* Player closes hell rift *
"It makes no difference! I have more!"
* Player closes all hell rifts *
"It makes no difference! I have plenty of demons"
* Player kills more demons *
"It makes no difference! Izual will kill you"
* Player kills Izual *
"It makes no difference! I shall destroy the crystal arch!"

Look, they are demons. They are prideful, and arrogant, and they like taunting you. I get that. But there's a point where it stop being taunting and just becomes whining.

Then there's some parts of the storyline that absolutely make no sense at all. Particularly the whole Zoltan Kulle part. He's this supposedly evil renegade Horadrim, except all he ever did was device a method to defeat the prime evils. Ok, fine. He's evil because the game tells me he is evil. Whatever. But then I make a bargain with him, I promise to resurrect him if he promises to create the black soul stone. And then I resurrect him, and he makes the soul stone for me ... and then I kill him. Wait, what? I just replayed this part of the game, not skipping the dialogue for a change, and it literally goes like this.
Player: "There, I've resurrected you. Now you better keep your part of the bargain Kulle!"
Kulle: "Very well, follow me to my domain"
Player: "Ok"
Kulle: "Ok, making the black soulstone now, as promised"
Kulle: "Wait, there's something wrong. Be careful, you are very likely being deceived"
Player: "DIE MOTHERFUCKER!"

It just makes absolutely not sense at all.

A few parts of the game are genuinely cool though. I really liked Leah, and Covetous Shen was awesome. If they come back in the expansion, in a more prominent role, I will be very, very happy.

Ok, that's enough ranting :)
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:14 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:Kulle: "Wait, there's something wrong. Be careful, you are very likely being deceived"

More like:
Kulle: "Now that I've made the soulstone I'm stealing it for my own purposes!"
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Re: Diablo III

Postby DaBigCheez » Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:00 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:"My demons will overrun heaven!"
* Player kills a bunch of demons *
"It makes no difference! You shall never close the hell rift!"
* Player closes hell rift *
"It makes no difference! I have more!"
* Player closes all hell rifts *
"It makes no difference! I have plenty of demons"
* Player kills more demons *
"It makes no difference! Izual will kill you"
* Player kills Izual *
"It makes no difference! I shall destroy the crystal arch!"

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Re: Diablo III

Postby JudeMorrigan » Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:46 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
Diadem wrote:Kulle: "Wait, there's something wrong. Be careful, you are very likely being deceived"

More like:
Kulle: "Now that I've made the soulstone I'm stealing it for my own purposes!"

He doesn't actually say that though. I'm with Diadem - that part of the story is exceptionally poorly told.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:48 pm UTC

I'm pretty sure he monologues a bunch about how he's going to use the soulstone to become the most powerful horadrim. And besides, his whole shtick was that he was a horadrim who used his powers for person gain, reaching too far. That he betrays you isn't a surprise; that you trusted him at all is.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Mishrak » Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:05 pm UTC

That's what you get when your hand is held 100% for the entire story. Blizzard isn't the only one that does this. Bethesda is pretty bad at it too. The world of (!) and (?) games isn't going anywhere because most players don't like to think. They just like to mash buttons and see things explode.
Last edited by Mishrak on Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:08 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby JudeMorrigan » Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:05 pm UTC

It really was pretty much "Woah, there are evils already trapped in this. You are *so* being played. Join me, and we can rule the galaxy the world together as father and son!" "Die, foul fiend!"

I agree that that was *supposed* to be his whole schtick, but they did a terrible job of actually showing it.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby philsov » Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:13 pm UTC

That he betrays you isn't a surprise; that you trusted him at all is.


That honor goes to Emperor Hakkan, who totally and in no way was possessed by an evil thing and holy crap, it was totally evil dude the whole time HE IS SO CLEVER AND VILE.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Xeio » Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:41 pm UTC

Khulle talks with your hero pretty much the entire time you're traveling with him where you in no uncertain terms basically tell him "no, don't be an ass, I'm not using this thing to take over the world". He clearly wants to use the power for his own ends.

He's very one dimensional as a character, but it's pretty obvious from the get go that he doesn't really want to help you save the world and is entirely in it for his own gains.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby JudeMorrigan » Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:51 pm UTC

I'm not claiming that there was any evidence that he was actually a swell guy. I'm claiming that when it comes time for his sudden but innevitable betrayal, he doesn't actually do much more than note (correctly) for the bazillionth time that you're getting played and make the bazillionth offer to join him.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby mosc » Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:41 pm UTC

Yeah, the writing is terrible.

That Scene with Khuul, he literally promises to keep his word AFTER you ressurect him, you go in there, and he warns you. Your response is to kill him. He does say "with this power, we could rule all of heaven and hell" or somesuch when examining the black soulstone but this comment is just totally insufficient to indicate a betrayal. I don't mind, as Kormak puts it "you MUST know he will betray us!?!" as a character theme but then I'd like him to, you know, actually betray the player before trying to kill him.

Also, what's with "killing" things in diablo? Khuul can't die, demons get reborn in hell if you kill them, but THIS hero WITHOUT using soul stones (minus on belial and azmodan) manages to permanently kill Khuul, the prime evil diable, et al? I don't get that part of the lore. I thought the whole point of D1 was that you needed soulstones to end the cycle by trapping them, and the point of D2 was you needed to destroy the soulstones before they could gradually seep out.

And it is loosely shielded roadmapping for the player all the quotes from the bosses telling you what to do by what they say you can't do.

But the worst to me is the needless doubling of all the khuul fetch quests in act 2. 2 vials of blood for 2 locks means 4 dungeons, three of which are identical, sandwitched between fetch quests for his head and body already is just too much. You could have replaced some of that with some post-resurrection pre-belial plot where khuul actually does something evil and/or the iron wolves fight to take back the city or something. How about Adria faking some kind of betrayal by khuul that we would believe only to learn later that khuul wasn't really so evil? Killing innocents by a PC is touchy but he's Khuul, not exactly Mr. Nice guy anyway.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Diadem » Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:58 pm UTC

mosc wrote:Yeah, the writing is terrible.

That Scene with Khuul, he literally promises to keep his word AFTER you ressurect him, you go in there, and he warns you. Your response is to kill him. He does say "with this power, we could rule all of heaven and hell" or somesuch when examining the black soulstone but this comment is just totally insufficient to indicate a betrayal. I don't mind, as Kormak puts it "you MUST know he will betray us!?!" as a character theme, but then I'd like him to, you know, actually betray the player before trying to kill him.

This. It's not that think Kulle is a nice guy, but he doesn't actually betray you, as far as i can tell. He says he'll keep his promise, then actually makes the soulstone as promised. After that, yes, he does try to seduce the player again, but he doesn't try to steal the soulstone for himself or attack you or anything.

Besides, Kulle is quite a rational guy. He wants immortality and ultimate power, but he's not insane. Nor is he in league with the demons. His betrayal of the Horadrim was not 'siding with demons' but 'siding against both angels and demons'. He doesn't want Diablo to win. And from earlier dialogue it's pretty clear he realizes that the player needs the black soulstone to save all of creation. So why would he betray you? Makes no sense at all.

So extrapolating from what I know of Kulle, it stands to reason that after his final line about "Join me! Together we'll rule as gods!", had the player said "Nah, sorry, not interested" instead of attacking, Kulle would have handed over the soulstone.


Besides, from a storytelling perspective, just killing Kulle off like that is a huge waste. Because he's actually a pretty interesting character, with a lot of potential depth. They could have kept him along a lot longer, as an untrusted but necessary ally. They could have done nice things like Adria framing Kulle, and made an actually interesting story. Besides, Kulle is a very interesting source of knowledge and depth. There's one point where he remarks that angels aren't much better than demons, because they once voted on if they should destroy humanity, with only 1 vote saving humanity. The player remarks that this must have been Tyrael, and Kulle says "Yeah, whatever else he is, he is the aspect of justice, and there's no justice in murder". This exchange tells us a lot about both the heavens and Kulle. I would have loved having more bits of wisdom like that.

So the entire Kulle storyline had lots and lots of potential. But what they did with it is introduce him out of the blue, develop him just enough to make him somewhat interesting, then kill him out of the blue. It's lazy storytelling, and a huge waste.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:20 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:So extrapolating from what I know of Kulle, it stands to reason that after his final line about "Join me! Together we'll rule as gods!", had the player said "Nah, sorry, not interested" instead of attacking, Kulle would have handed over the soulstone.

I disagree; I think it's made clear that Kulle is going to use the soulstone for his own means, and if you refuse, he's going to attack. Which is what happens; remember, you don't attack first, he does when he powers up those golems and 'ends the cut scene'.

Diadem wrote:They could have done nice things like Adria framing Kulle, and made an actually interesting story.

I think Kulle actually alludes to knowing that Adria is in league with Diablo, or at least evil, but I can't recall for certain.

Ultimately Kulle is supposed to represent what your character can become if you stray from the path. Not that you're given a choice, but it's there to show you what happens when a horadrim acts selfishly.

Another thing to realize about Kulle is he wasn't just acting against heaven, he was also acting against the demons. This is a world bound by order, and that order includes angels vs demons. By stepping outside that order, he was breaking things even more seriously; this is what caused angels and demons to unite actually in the first place, when they tried to eradicate the horadrim.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Chen » Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:55 pm UTC

While the dialogue is pretty poor for the Kulle betrayal part, it is pretty clear he's betraying you since he turns hostile, activates his golems and shoots fireballs at you right as the dialogue ends. If you had to hit him first or something fine, but he's clearly attacking you which means a pretty obvious betrayal.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Negated » Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:03 am UTC

In the soulstone chamber, Kulle activated the black soulstone and immediately the souls of the Prime/Lesser Evils were sucked into it. He was genuinely surprised by the turn of event, sensed that something was wrong, and warned the player that he/she was being used (by Adria, as it turned out in Act 3). The player just assumed he was mad, and ran towards Kulle to get the soulstone.

And then the fight started.

So given the scenes immediately before the fight, who looked more likely to start an attack? The player has a very good motive because to him/her, Kulle appears to be breaking the deal. On the other hand, it seems unlikely that Kulle woud immediately try to kill the player simply because the player did not believe him and called him "mad". Perhaps Kulle wants the soulstone for himself, but that would break the bargain he striked with the player, which does not match how he is portrayed. My own guess is that a) Kulle feels threatened by the approaching player and acts in self defence, and b) he wants to prevent the player getting the soulstone with all those demons' souls trapped inside. Either way it is not really a betrayal.

It should be noted that at no point does Kulle clearly show any intent to use the black soulstone for himself. He appears to uphold his end of the bargain until the souls are sucked into the black soulstone. We just never get to know what Kulle intends to do with the soulstone if the player actually listens to him. It would have been an interesting alternative story.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Mishrak » Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:40 pm UTC

So yeah. That Marquis Ruby adds 20k dps to my Demon Hunter.

Whatever people were worried about a nerf, I think was probably an overreaction. That may just be due to my setup, but hey I'm not gonna complain.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Chen » Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:22 pm UTC

Mishrak wrote:So yeah. That Marquis Ruby adds 20k dps to my Demon Hunter.

Whatever people were worried about a nerf, I think was probably an overreaction. That may just be due to my setup, but hey I'm not gonna complain.


Hmm I lose like 5k dps changing from 100% Emerald to the new Ruby. But I have a lot of crit so I suppose that makes a difference. The crafting seems able to give some absurdly good items too. Made some excellent shoulders that were better than my Vile Wards. Made an amulet that increased my dps by a couple thousand but it had no Vit compared to my 200 vit current amulet. Still seems like I can probably upgrade my amulet/bracers and maybe even gloves with these new craftables.

Took a bath on gem speculation though. I should have sold right after the PTR announcements where the prices jumped super high. Fortunately rubies are still somewhat high but amethysts have dropped almost back to their pre-PTR prices which I didn't expect (figured people would want them for PVP). Stocking up on crafting materials was worth it though. Shoulda spent more money on doing that.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Mishrak » Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:41 pm UTC

I have pretty high CC, but not amazing. I'm very surprised that it gives me such a big increase, but maybe that's due to my higher attack speed. Most of my stuff is fairly difficult to upgrade for anything reasonably priced, but for crafting, I'll be rolling amulets. There's a lot of room on there, and 200+ dex and 5 extra stats is impossible to ignore.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Mish ... o/27156825

I'm sitting on a fairly big chunk of money due to an item that rage sold for a lot about 5 weeks before the 1.07 patch. I haven't bought the gem yet, but looking at d3rawr with the 80-80 gem I currently have, the dps matches exactly, so I know it's accurate when I plug in the Marquis gem. I'm waiting on prices to come down on some other stuff first because I know the Marquis Ruby will be fairly static in price. The other items should come down as the influx of players returning to the game for a month or so will increase the items that go on the AH and drive prices down.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Chen » Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:27 pm UTC

Mishrak wrote:I'm sitting on a fairly big chunk of money due to an item that rage sold for a lot about 5 weeks before the 1.07 patch. I haven't bought the gem yet, but looking at d3rawr with the 80-80 gem I currently have, the dps matches exactly, so I know it's accurate when I plug in the Marquis gem. I'm waiting on prices to come down on some other stuff first because I know the Marquis Ruby will be fairly static in price. The other items should come down as the influx of players returning to the game for a month or so will increase the items that go on the AH and drive prices down.


The recipe for the Marquis only seems to be going for about half a million so yeah the price will be pretty constant. Gem prices are still falling but tome prices are increasing so perhaps buy those now if you don't have enough.

The BoA items are killing those slots on the market though. Shoulders and Bracers are practically worthless and rare chests are even more worthless now than before. Gloves are still tricky since you need 3 rolls even on the BoA for them to be uber and amulets as well haven't dropped as much, but both still are dropping. I need to sell the amulet I'm using now since I'm pretty sure they're just going to continue to drop in value and its a pretty high end one (~65 int, 200 vit, 8.5 cc, 100% CD, chance to blind and 300 life regen)

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Mishrak » Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:57 pm UTC

Good rare amulets will still be valuable. Roll 400 amulets or spend 50m on a nice one? That's an easy choice, assuming you have the money. Although rolling amulets will probably always be a better option long term because of the potential for them to so much better than what rares will get due to the 200+ in a chosen stat.

The thing about shoulders and bracers and chests, is all of those are very, very, very easily replaced by inexpensive legendary drops that are dramatically better, especially with 2piece set bonuses. You can get a pretty cheap 200+ stat Vile Ward for <10m, same with a Strongarm bracer or a non-crit Lacuni Prowlers. Rare bracers with 150+ primary stat, 60+ AR, Vitality, pickup radius, and cc will still always be valuable no matter what. Inna's, Nat's, Tal Rasha's, Immortal King's, Blackthorn's, etc - you'll never get a rare chest or legs that is better than those, so the random rolling ones are fairly useless long term. Plus, you can get affordable versions of them in the 4-10m range, easily. In the short term it'll be a nice way to get some gear for those slots. Long term, you want those set bonuses. Same for legs, same for boots, same for helms.

Gloves are hard. There are very few legendary gloves that are useful so rares will have value, especially good ones. I'll probably roll some eventually, but my goal for now will be amulets, granted it will be a real pain to replace mine because of the crit damage and the high average.

TL;DR: The only items that will take big (how big? probably not that noticeable) blows in value will be amulets and gloves, as those will be the most often rolled and replaced items by these recipes. However, all that will really do is make better gear more accessible, as that means more rare amulets/gloves should be on the market and the price of a high quality one will go down. More gear for everyone. And the good rares will still hold their value.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Chen » Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:31 pm UTC

Mishrak wrote:Good rare amulets will still be valuable. Roll 400 amulets or spend 50m on a nice one? That's an easy choice, assuming you have the money. Although rolling amulets will probably always be a better option long term because of the potential for them to so much better than what rares will get due to the 200+ in a chosen stat.


They'll still be valuable sure, but their value dropped considerably. Even though it makes sense to buy one for say 10m people you really don't feel the money going away when crafting and its going to dissuade people from buying.

The thing about shoulders and bracers and chests, is all of those are very, very, very easily replaced by inexpensive legendary drops that are dramatically better, especially with 2piece set bonuses. You can get a pretty cheap 200+ stat Vile Ward for <10m, same with a Strongarm bracer or a non-crit Lacuni Prowlers. Rare bracers with 150+ primary stat, 60+ AR, Vitality, pickup radius, and cc will still always be valuable no matter what. Inna's, Nat's, Tal Rasha's, Immortal King's, Blackthorn's, etc - you'll never get a rare chest or legs that is better than those, so the random rolling ones are fairly useless long term. Plus, you can get affordable versions of them in the 4-10m range, easily. In the short term it'll be a nice way to get some gear for those slots. Long term, you want those set bonuses. Same for legs, same for boots, same for helms.


Chests I agree with since the set chests are more or less just better than any crafted ones. There are also things like Tyrael's Might which have unique stats for a chest piece. Bracers have Lacuni's which are probably still going to keep the best in slot title if you don't need EHP. Regular rare bracers though are almost pointless to pick up. Shoulders are even worse since Vile wards weren't any better than rare shoulders to begin with (they just had guaranteed good stats). Each shoulder craft is ~100k. Making 100 shoulders instead of buying a 10m vile ward is most likely going to get you something "better". You only really need to roll All res and a vit/main stat hybrid roll and your already better than that 10m vile ward. Now as these become more prevalent vile ward prices will drop so it may even out after a while.

Gloves are hard. There are very few legendary gloves that are useful so rares will have value, especially good ones. I'll probably roll some eventually, but my goal for now will be amulets, granted it will be a real pain to replace mine because of the crit damage and the high average.

TL;DR: The only items that will take big (how big? probably not that noticeable) blows in value will be amulets and gloves, as those will be the most often rolled and replaced items by these recipes. However, all that will really do is make better gear more accessible, as that means more rare amulets/gloves should be on the market and the price of a high quality one will go down. More gear for everyone. And the good rares will still hold their value.


As I said above Shoulders are going to take a big hit and non-BoA rare bracers are going to be extremely rare. I'm not sure how the lowering of prices will work in the long term. Its great from a buyers point of view, but its pretty bad from a sellers point of view. People who made consistent money on mid-range items are going to feel the hit since there is no longer a mid-range for the BoA slots. Very high end items are going to hold their value fairly well so the absolute top end things will remain in the billions of gold. I don't think it will be too detrimental to the game, but if they start expanding the slots where BoA craftables are available, I suspect it will be a problem.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Mishrak » Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:14 pm UTC

Indeed. Some of this BoA stuff seems a bit detrimental to their AH economy. I'm a little surprised that things like Marquise gems and other such items aren't tradeable. As far as I can recall, everything in Diablo 2 was tradeable. There were no BoA items.

It's odd to me. Everything in Diablo 3 seems to push things further and further towards solo play. Instanced loot, no drop rate gains from grouping, no real reason to barter or trade, really bad FPS issues at times even with all graphics settings at minimum, party cap of 4. Only PVP(is it even really pvp?) and Ubers promote multiplay. If it weren't for twitch, Diablo 3 might actually be really bad off right now.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Chen » Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:34 pm UTC

I don't know about that. The whole AH thing has been decried as "necessary" since the beginning. The big difference compared to D2 is that the AH is EXTREMELY efficient in getting you what you want. Trading in D2 was a pain. Wanted a perfect Windforce? Well you had find someone who had one then determine what exactly they wanted for it in terms of other items/runes. With especially rare items it was kind of a crapshoot on how much something was worth.

Thing is people are upset by the AH since prices inflated to very high values. So high that it was more efficient to play the AH than play the game to obtain your items. This is why the BoA stuff was added, so that people could distance themselves, at least in part, from the AH. They could play the game and actually have a reasonable chance at obtaining some good items. The variability in items is too high in a lot of cases. It makes the good items FAR more valuable than the bad. This wasn't really the case in D2. The gap between a high end Shako and low end Shako was smaller so finding the low end one was still pretty darn good. Here the difference between a high end Echoing Fury and a low end Echoing fury is enormous and the drop rate is probably similar if not lower than a similar unique/legendary in D2.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Mishrak » Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:05 pm UTC

There's no question about whether or not the AH makes it easier for people to obtain stuff over the bartering system. The point I was making though, is that in Diablo 3, there's very little reason to seek out players in public games or do anything with other players outside of ubers or key runs or the laughable pvp that's implemented. There is no exp bonus from grouping, there is no drop rate bonus from grouping. There are only two scenarios where grouping is really important, and that's ubers and key runs. And honestly, the Hellfire ring isn't all that productive to farm. The only thing you get when you add another player to your game (besides their dps/crowd control/whatever) is more hp on the mobs and additional graphics lag. That's it. And it's really, really dumb of Blizzard to do this.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby mosc » Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:40 pm UTC

If you think about MP level as a variable, any hellfire ring beyond the first one you make doesn't help your character too much. You can grind out key after key after key and do ubers as often as you can and maybe get another 10k DPS out of your ring but then what? A single additional MP level? That'd be an amazing ring to facilitate that over one with just the crappiest of stats. In all the time it would take to make it you could have been farming at that mp level one below and had more experience/hr anyway. Hellfire's to me are rather interchangeable. I basically gave one to each one of my followers and have one dex, int, and str one that I keep ready to swap on for my characters as needed. I don't even use them in group play. They're for more efficient leveling when solo playing. So then the entire point of grouping is for keys/ubers in order to make an item that promotes solo play anyway.

The 4 player lag is really bad, it's true. And the hitpoint scaling with multiple players is too high considering you lose all the amazing follower bonuses (MF, GF, bonus xp %, and extra attack speed, resource regen, or crit chance).

Though all that said, I can't stand to play D3 anymore without conviction up. It's just too powerful. So I generally play monk or crave a monk following me around when I play any other class. I'll give up my WD's follower bonuses for a conviction monk and some enemy bonus HP any day.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Chen » Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:58 pm UTC

If you group with people similar to your own dps output you do get fairly significant increase in killing speed since I think monster HP only scales at 75% per additional player. So you do get more drops/experience per time, its just not an explicit bonus.

Now once you start hitting the high end it becomes a problem because you're not likely to find someone with similar damage output. I'm at 280k dps buffed now so its FAR more efficient for me to run alone than with 3 others who are likely not that high in dps. Plus I run as Archon which is terrible for groups anyway because "on kill" procs are still not shared amongst the group.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby mosc » Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:05 pm UTC

Archon is uniquely dysfunctional build in a group. No other skill in the game is anywhere near as single player focused. Also, don't be a numbers queen. A 280k buffed DPS archon build kicks out similar DPS per second to a single target to my 140k DPS monk who both hides damage (conviction, WKL's lightning skill bonus, helm FOT bonus) and has the ultimate semi passive, sweeping wind.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Chen » Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:47 pm UTC

mosc wrote:Archon is uniquely dysfunctional build in a group. No other skill in the game is anywhere near as single player focused. Also, don't be a numbers queen. A 280k buffed DPS archon build kicks out similar DPS per second to a single target to my 140k DPS monk who both hides damage (conviction, WKL's lightning skill bonus, helm FOT bonus) and has the ultimate semi passive, sweeping wind.


Oh I don't doubt that. And the utility of an 80k dps CM/WW wizard in a group can hardly be overstated either. However, my experience is the vast majority of the public games I've played is random 50-100k dps players with random ass skills who are NOT pulling their weight e.g., I'm going to be wary of seeing a 120k dps demon hunter WITH sharpshooter if I join a group almost regardless of what their skills are.

Overall, I suspect most players are in fairly moderate gear. You can see it by all the new BoAs people are wearing that are still only mid-range pieces. Everyone sees the diablo progress and the super expensive items on the AH, but I'm betting the vast majority of players are fairly poor in game and don't have the best gear set, let alone the supposed cookie cutter builds that are "optimal'.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Mishrak » Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:02 pm UTC

The thing is, there's no excuse today to be running with no dps or crap skills unless that person is just not trying or they're brand new to the game. Low end set items are dramatically less expensive, the barrier to entry for a decent weapon is dramatically less (unless you're talking melee 1-handers, then forget it), and the amount of twitch videos and information on skillsets is through the roof. So if someone is running around with 300 hours played and they still have only 100k dps, and useless skills on, they're doing something wrong. Now throw in the crafted items and the game gets even easier for those new folks. Now they don't even need tens(or hundreds) of millions of gold to get stuff.

Case in point: I just rolled a 242 dex 100 vitality 79 AR 157 life regen 7 pickup radius shoulder piece. To buy an equivalent Vile Ward with 100 vitality AND pickup radius is hundreds of millions, if not billions, assuming it even exists on the AH. That's a low dex roll too, compared to what it can get. There's just no excuse anymore, or that person doesn't play, or they don't play smartly and they just run around in hell difficulty pub games trying to sell blues for a few hundred gold a pop. There's nothing wrong with that, but if that's the case, then they're always going to be playing at a low level of dps output and efficiency.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Chen » Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:37 pm UTC

While I tend to agree there's no excuse to do so, plenty of people do. I played WoW for years and let me tell you people played constantly and were terrible at it. They didn't go to Elitist Jerks or anything. They didn't research the proper builds or attack routines. People just played the game. And people do the same in D3. There are people who struggle to make the money necessary to buy their mediocre gear simply because they don't know what things are worth. Why do you think people who flip on the AH make so much money? There have to be people who have no clue at item prices for that to work and it does. The vast majority of people will be mediocre at the game even if they play 1000 hours. And that is one of the other problems with random public games.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby mosc » Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:55 pm UTC

Some people generally don't want to run somebody else's build whither they think it's better or not. They also hold onto pieces of gear because they can't sacrifice anything in an upgrade (say, 2 points of AR for 100 stats). Also, they don't want to learn how to price items that they drop so they merchant a lot of stuff they shouldn't and post gear for sale way too cheap (or way too expensive and clog up our searches). Also, people play very slowly, constantly stopping to sell blues or examining and evaluating every item they pick up.

Diablo also has many mechanics that are just not intuitive to people. The proc rates of AOE attacks confuse the hell out of people, as do the various bonus damages from items/skills that do not show up in the damage number. People who don't read the forums and don't want to have people tell them what gear and skills to run are going to suck no matter how many hours they put in.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Menacing Spike » Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:56 pm UTC

So...

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/8953696/

I like that they identify actual problems and present reasonable steps to solve it. If those changes go through I would probably be tempted to buy the game.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Jebobek » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:05 am UTC

Giving legendaries more of a stat-range is just another form of power-creeping, which is just band-aiding. If they don't do ladders it is just going to be a power creep with no new content. Oh and identify-all should have been in the game day-1, but is a sort of this weird "convenience-creep" they're doing. "Oh you can ID things faster now. Oh now you can ID everything at once."

Exciting, build-changing loot (like 2 hydras at once that they mentioned) that sacrifices stats for new ability buffs is what I'm looking forward to, and looking forward to only. These are incomparables, better explained through the second half of an Extra Credits episode talking about dealing with power creep ( http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/power-creep ).

I'll go back if and when they include enough of that.
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Re: Diablo III

Postby Mishrak » Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:13 pm UTC

It's confusing as to why they deviated so far from such a successful pattern already. Diablo 2 took what was good about Diablo 1, made it better and continued to build on it through the expansions. Diablo 3 took five steps backwards, did a Vault in the mud and only now is starting to get to decent levels of competency with their content. Where is the ability to lock your gear to prevent vendoring equipment? Why is the auction house still missing some very basic, logical and outright necessary functionality, i.e. being able to search for Stones of Jordan properly? Why did it take them 7 major patch revisions to implement a pathetic "pvp" system where everyone 1-shots each other? Why didn't the game roll out with an "identify-all" feature that was in Diablo 2? What was the purpose of that time sink? The benefits of such a decision could not have been that useful. Why is the game so overwhelmingly skewed towards the same stats for every class and nearly every build? I'll stop there, I could keep going.

I love Blizzard's rss feed for Diablo, honestly. It's filled with nothing but articles on cosplayers, fan art, "name your character build!!1" and other such useless things that are not relevant to the game. It really shows me where Blizzard's priorities are for their game. It's a sad state, that maybe one day will be remedied, but as long as it sells, Blizzard won't have much incentive to really change it.

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Re: Diablo III

Postby Chen » Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:34 pm UTC

Mishrak wrote:I love Blizzard's rss feed for Diablo, honestly. It's filled with nothing but articles on cosplayers, fan art, "name your character build!!1" and other such useless things that are not relevant to the game. It really shows me where Blizzard's priorities are for their game. It's a sad state, that maybe one day will be remedied, but as long as it sells, Blizzard won't have much incentive to really change it.


You realize their web team and the ones who do all that junk are completely different than the developers right? The RSS feed is basically their advertising/marketing people putting things up there. Development blogs and the like do show up although far more rarely since they do have to figure out how to fix the problems they caused with the game.


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