Muzzle Flash

Of the Tabletop, and other, lesser varieties.

Moderators: SecondTalon, Moderators General, Prelates

User avatar
Gunfingers
Posts: 2401
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 7:15 pm UTC

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby Gunfingers » Tue Oct 21, 2008 2:54 pm UTC

Maybe Freeman's super-suit allowed him to more easily keep the weapon steady? Or something?

Or, hell, maybe he was some ex-green-beret-turned-theoretical-physicist. It happens.

User avatar
TodayIsTomorrow
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:19 am UTC
Location: Afghanistan
Contact:

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby TodayIsTomorrow » Tue Oct 21, 2008 3:25 pm UTC

Alright, I'll start with the reloading. Pretty much every game I've ever played reloads a shotgun far too fast. There is absolutely no quick or graceful way to yank a shell out and shove it into the bottom of the weapon. If you try and do it too fast, the loading gate of the shotgun grabs your finger or you drop the shell. Most of our guys just keep the shotgun on a bungie cord or a sling of some kind so that when its empty they can just drop it and pull up whatever other weapon they are carrying, usually an M4 or an M9. The M16 family of weapons is really quick to reload with some practice and with the right mag carriers. All of us have it well below a second to reload unless something goes horribly wrong. Pistols are even quicker usually, but I have to agree that any revolver is difficult to load with anything but full moon clips or a speed loader. As for Gordon Freeman, he must be using a speed loader. If he were using the half or full moon clips, the spent casings would fall as a unit, rather than individually.

Now, onto recoil. It is fully depends on the weapon you are using. The main things that will make your muzzle climb like a bat out of hell are the difference between the bore line and where the stock presses into your shoulder, the kind of muzzle brake you are using, the operating system of the weapon and the size of the round being fired. The higher the bore line, and thus the action, of the weapon are from your shoulder, the more that the muzzle will climb. The muzzle brake you are using has a huge effect on this. The M16 has one that is vented upwards so that the gasses from firing keep the muzzle down somewhat. The M249 Squad Automatic Weapon (which is what I carry), has a muzzle brake that is vented in four directions. Its purpose is to take away recoil and try and keep your shot group tight when letting off a string of rounds. Due to the fact that the weapon (with a 200 round pork chop) weighs in at almost 25 pounds, it doesn't like to climb very much at all, but it will push back quite hard. I can see automatic pistols or very light sub machine guns climbing for the skies on a long string of rounds, but most weapons won't do that.

Firing position is the biggest mistake people make when shooting. You always lean into your weapon, with a firm grip on the weapon, pushing it gently into your shoulder. If you mess up any of those things, the weapon is going to A) Knock you on your ass or B) Send bullets whistling into the wide blue yonder.

Cheers everyone
Freedom is letting go of that which, truly, does not matter.

User avatar
Jebobek
Posts: 2219
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:19 pm UTC
Location: Harrisburg, Pennsylvania Geohash graticule

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby Jebobek » Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:41 pm UTC

Wow, thanks. Have you heard about the LSAT light machine gunat all? They're working on that to replace the M249 SAW. I just saw on the Wiki page that they're simulaneously working on both caseless/cased ammunition to see what would work out for them better.

If theres a futuristic weapon I'd like to see in games it would be a Metal Storm handgun/rifle/robot.
Image

User avatar
SecondTalon
SexyTalon
Posts: 26529
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 2:10 pm UTC
Location: Louisville, Kentucky, USA, Mars. HA!
Contact:

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby SecondTalon » Tue Oct 21, 2008 6:48 pm UTC

TodayIsTomorrow wrote:More educational stuff

Seriously, I love you.
heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.
heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.

User avatar
TodayIsTomorrow
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:19 am UTC
Location: Afghanistan
Contact:

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby TodayIsTomorrow » Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:45 pm UTC

Guns have been my passion for a very long time, and now its part of my job.

On the subject of recoil and accuracy again, there's a weapon I just found out about called the KRISS or something along those lines. Instead of having a bolt that recoils in a straight line, the locking mechanism is integrated into a small weight that moves downwards at an angle in front of the firing hand's knuckles. What this does is redirect the forces of recoil and the momentum of the bolt downwards and back, rather than straight back. I saw it on an episode of Future weapons. It fires the .45 ACP round. The announcer for the show put thirty rounds in a two foot target at 30 metres. Now, normally this wouldn't be impressive at all, except he was firing the weapon in full auto, at 1800 rounds per minute. Needless to say, certain parts of my maleness were just bouncing in joy when I saw that. Its quite possibly the ugliest thing I have ever seen that fires rounds, but given the performance, I may just have to pick one up.

My father said that life is far too short to use an ugly gun, or a pretty gun that doesn't work. This is an ugly gun that seems to work. I like.

Cheers all. I'm on shift for 12 hours a day, so I'll have ample time to answer any but the most complex questions.

Woo.
Freedom is letting go of that which, truly, does not matter.

User avatar
Jebobek
Posts: 2219
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:19 pm UTC
Location: Harrisburg, Pennsylvania Geohash graticule

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby Jebobek » Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:13 pm UTC

Here's one... I see so many games and movies where a guy picks up a gun for the first time ever and shoots it like a pro within minutes. Although its far-fetched, what would be the most likely "newbie gun" that someone can actually pull this off? I guess It would involve OK recoil, no jams, lightweight, reliable, simple to maintain and operate.. no i'm not going to go out and buy one. For hand guns I guess something compact with a clip. For automatic rifles would it be something like what the US army uses?
Image

User avatar
Kaelri
Posts: 352
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:42 pm UTC
Location: York, New
Contact:

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby Kaelri » Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:36 pm UTC

Here's the Future Weapons segment on the KRISS that TodayIsTomorrow mentioned.

I've been studying guns (and infantry combat doctrine in general) on my own time for a while now. I'm... not completely sure why it interests me. To be honest, it probably arose from my naive search for realism in FPS games, and with the sheer volume of well-organized information on Wikipedia and elsewhere, my self-education spiraled out of control.

At any rate, your answers are fantastic. Thankye.

Also, as a SAW user, I'd love to know what you think of this thing.

User avatar
TodayIsTomorrow
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:19 am UTC
Location: Afghanistan
Contact:

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby TodayIsTomorrow » Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:44 pm UTC

For a newbie to pick something up and fire it without a problem would be an issue if they've never fired anything in their lives. If you've had any experience at all then it'd be significantly easier. For pistols, its a tossup between a .38 Special revolver and the 1911. The .38 is so simple that a 4 year old can use it (for the love of GOD, don't give a 4 year old a firearm). It has a hammer, a trigger, and the cylinder release. Its single action most of the time, though there are a few doubles out there. Pretty much, if its loaded, you pull the hammer back, point, pull the trigger. The 1911 is one of the most user-friendly automatic's ever created. If you hold the pistol and hold your arm out, you're already looking down the sites. It has a grip safety, a slide safety, the slide release, and the magazine release. Its a single action automatic, so you have to either pull the hammer back on the first round if its down, or rack the slide if there is not a round in the chamber. Like I said before, its one of the easiest pointing pistols in existance, making it a favorite for competition shooting.

For rifles, its a little tougher. If we're going with a rifle that has no optics, then it'd be the AK47. It never jams (we've tried, you can't do it unless you FILL it with sand), is accurate out to about 100 metres, has both semi and fully automatic, and there is an abundance of ammo. The M16 is also a good choice, but is far more finicky. It likes to jam if it isn't perfectly clean, will jam if the magazine is even slightly bent (which is apt to happen if you land on your magazines when you hit the dirt), and honestly has sites that are more difficult to use. If you've got optics on the weapon though, almost every assault rifle ever made can be shot with a good degree of accuracy from even really really strange positions and even one handed. The Aimpoint sites that we use on our M16's now are a god-send for people with no shooting experience. Once you have it zeroed, if you put the dot on the target and pull the trigger, the bullet is going into the dot. Even if the dot is way off to the side of the scope, its still going to hit.

The ultimate newbie weapon is truly the 12 Ga. shotgun though. There's nothing simpler until you have to reload. You rack the slide, point in the general direction, pull the trigger, target is full of holes.

The best arsenal you can have going into combat, if you've got no experience shooting, and a pair of brass balls, is an AK-47, and a 9mm 1911 variant. The shotgun is great for close in work, but ammo is really hard to come by. Everyone outside the US uses 7.62 to feed their AKs and 9mm is so common it isn't even funny.

Let the enemy be your quartermaster. Once you're out of ammo, pick up their stuff. Pretty much every AK has the same operating controls, and just about every semi-automatic pistol in existance has the same controls unless you find some of the more odd-ball russian and german stuff.

Hope that helps answer your question.

P.S. I'm on a government laptop and it won't let me access youtube >.<
Freedom is letting go of that which, truly, does not matter.

User avatar
Kaelri
Posts: 352
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:42 pm UTC
Location: York, New
Contact:

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby Kaelri » Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:29 pm UTC

TodayIsTomorrow wrote:P.S. I'm on a government laptop and it won't let me access youtube >.<


Ooh. My bad. It's another Future Weapons bit on the LWRC Infantry Automatic Rifle. Basically, they're trying to replace the M249 with a modified version of the M4. In semi-automatic, it fires from a closed bolt; in automatic, it can fire the first round closed-bolt and the rest open-bolt (until the bolt is manually closed again). From the wiki: "This allows the gunner to fire his first round as accurately, reliably, and quickly as a rifleman, while following that initial round with Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW) level of fire." Despite the clever mechanics, though, I don't see how it overcomes the intrinsic disadvantage of using a carbine-sized rifle as a fire support weapon: namely, the thing's just too light. Same reason why the M14 couldn't replace the BAR. Maybe it has a heavier barrel; I don't know whether that would be enough. It's also still magazine-fed like an M4, and that's an issue that goes all the way back to the BAR itself: you'd be going from a 200-round belt to a 30-round magazine.

It reminds me of all the Rambo-descendants in games and movies who think they can fire a machine gun in one hand, except in reverse. At any rate, it looks like the USMC is already phasing it in, so it would seem that the experts disagree. But I thought you'd be interested.
Last edited by Kaelri on Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:31 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

Jack Saladin
X is kiss
Posts: 4445
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2006 8:22 am UTC
Location: Aotearoa

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby Jack Saladin » Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:30 pm UTC

... Anyone got any ideas as to which subforum this best fits into? It's not really 'Gaming'.

User avatar
TodayIsTomorrow
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:19 am UTC
Location: Afghanistan
Contact:

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby TodayIsTomorrow » Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:58 pm UTC

I like the idea of having a lightweight SAW, but it has its drawbacks as you said. With the M249 I can tag 800 metre targets from prone with a good degree of accuracy. I'm not sure if I could do that with an M16 sized weapon, let alone an M4 in fully automatic. Second is the 30 round magazine. 9 round bursts would chew through that really, really fast. I suppose if you could get your hands on Beta mags, it'd be ok. Beta mags hold 100 rounds in a double snail shape that curls up on both sides of the mag well.

Firing from closed bolt in semi, then switching to open bolt for fully automatic sounds like a complex mechanism. Complex mechanisms + soldiers + dirt + being beat around inside buildings and vehicles sounds like a recipe for a really, really upset soldier.

Much as I despise carrying the 249, everything is alright once I need to use it. That 200 rounds is a nice warm blanket when the fecal matter hits the oscilating rotational ventilational device.

I am curious how they made the weapon both open and closed. I'd be interested to see a schematic of the mechanism.

Until they make me give it up, or I get the chance to test out the new weapon, I'll hang onto my 249.

Cheers
Freedom is letting go of that which, truly, does not matter.

User avatar
SecondTalon
SexyTalon
Posts: 26529
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 2:10 pm UTC
Location: Louisville, Kentucky, USA, Mars. HA!
Contact:

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:18 am UTC

Jack Saladin wrote:... Anyone got any ideas as to which subforum this best fits into? It's not really 'Gaming'.

I have no bloody clue. It's gaming and movie related, but more of "Hey, here's a dude who knows his shit about firearms, so let's ask him questions"
...

General?
heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.
heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.

Jack Saladin
X is kiss
Posts: 4445
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2006 8:22 am UTC
Location: Aotearoa

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby Jack Saladin » Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:33 am UTC

*shudders*

I guess it can stay here.

User avatar
TodayIsTomorrow
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:19 am UTC
Location: Afghanistan
Contact:

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby TodayIsTomorrow » Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:37 am UTC

:oops: Didn't mean to hijack the thread.

We could always start pointing out the firearms-related bloopers in movies. I've got a whole tonne of those (I'm looking at you "The Matrix)... or something. I dunno.

Hooray for guns?
Freedom is letting go of that which, truly, does not matter.

User avatar
4=5
Posts: 2073
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2007 3:02 am UTC

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby 4=5 » Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:57 am UTC

It would be cool to have a guns and weaponry subforum. Just to keep things new you know.

User avatar
Jebobek
Posts: 2219
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:19 pm UTC
Location: Harrisburg, Pennsylvania Geohash graticule

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby Jebobek » Wed Oct 22, 2008 12:31 pm UTC

Well you weren't hijacking, more like making the thread really interesting and awesome.

Does anyone remember in equilibrium in one of the final shooting scenes where he throws down ammo clips on the floor that were heavily weighted at the bottom, so they stick up? When he was out of ammo he deployed the empty clips and shoved his guns down into the clips sticking up, and kept shooting.... Is that possible? Do they have those?
Image

User avatar
SecondTalon
SexyTalon
Posts: 26529
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 2:10 pm UTC
Location: Louisville, Kentucky, USA, Mars. HA!
Contact:

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Oct 22, 2008 1:36 pm UTC

Jebobek wrote:Well you weren't hijacking, more like making the thread really interesting and awesome.
What he said.

TodayIsTomorrow wrote:We could always start pointing out the firearms-related bloopers in movies. I've got a whole tonne of those (I'm looking at you "The Matrix)... or something. I dunno.
Yes please.
heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.
heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.

User avatar
Surgery
Posts: 628
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:22 am UTC
Location: Western New York

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby Surgery » Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:25 pm UTC

TodayIsTomorrow wrote:We could always start pointing out the firearms-related bloopers in movies. I've got a whole tonne of those (I'm looking at you "The Matrix)... or something. I dunno.


i'm all for making this some kind of giant, awesome mushroom/fungus thread with tendrils everywhere. Next we'll point out firearms bloopers in books! then discuss the mathematics of ballistics, then chemistry of gun powder and different metals used for bullets! then the validity of firearm sound samples in music! then ... um ... how to eat a bullet in Food (i don't mean that the way it sounds)? Maybe steer clear of LSR with this one, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

but seriously, thanks for the info man, i grew up around firearms but it was mostly iron-sights and pump/lever/bolt-actions, so my experience and knowledge of most of the other stuff is more limited.

also, i've got a question that has nothing to do with movies or games or whathaveyou but firearms nonetheless if people don't mind the thread derailing slightly.

User avatar
SecondTalon
SexyTalon
Posts: 26529
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 2:10 pm UTC
Location: Louisville, Kentucky, USA, Mars. HA!
Contact:

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:26 pm UTC

Go for it. We'll figure it out as we go.
heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.
heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.

User avatar
TodayIsTomorrow
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:19 am UTC
Location: Afghanistan
Contact:

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby TodayIsTomorrow » Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:08 pm UTC

Jebok, the weighted mags have got to be a custom job at the very least, and the practice to use one in an actual situation would be nuts, but it would sure as hell throw your enemy off their game horribly. As long as the pistols had a bevelled magazine well, you could slap the gun down onto the mag and keep going, as long as you had a round in the chamber when you do. Otherwise, once you have the magazine in, you'd have to hit the slide release to let the first round chamber, which would slow you down some.

So, since bloopers were requested, I've got two right off the top of my head. In the movie the Marine, they keep talking about a .45 pistol and then show a Beretta 92F. That model of pistol has never been anything but 9mm and .40 Smith and Wesson. Beretta did make a pistol called the Cougar M8045, though finding one is a challenge in and of itself as its one of those pistols that, once you fire it, you swear never to give up. The second blooper is in the second or third movie of the matrix, where neo is in a large atrium/entrance area to a mansion, with stairs on either side. There are about twenty people standing around with a mix of weapons from 9mm's to assault rifles of just about every flavor and calibre imaginable. When they all fire and Neo stops the bullets in mid air, each and every bullet is the exact same size and shape. I threw my popcorn at the movie theatre when I saw that. I don't understand how an action movie, which is centred around guns and kung fu, doesn't do the research for guns. Oh, oh, I just thought of another one. In the movie Wanted, you see several times a very long pistol that looks old. It is an old flintlock that's been modified... with a magazine. All flintlocks are single shot designs simply by necessity due to the fact that you have to pour very fine powder into a small bowl on the side of the weapon, and then spark it with the flint to make the powder burn and expell the bullet. While I like artistic lisence and all that, that's inexcusable.

SecondTalon wrote:Go for it. We'll figure it out as we go.


SecondTalon has spoken! Ask away Surgery!
Freedom is letting go of that which, truly, does not matter.

User avatar
Surgery
Posts: 628
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:22 am UTC
Location: Western New York

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby Surgery » Wed Oct 22, 2008 8:49 pm UTC

Haha, ok.

Home defense:
Been doing some reading and there seems to be a lot of disagreement about which penetrates more, a .223 or a 9mm (or other larger pistol caliber). I was raised believing that by and large pistol calibers are much better for home defense then rifle calibers in large part for the lack of over-penetration. However, people have starting throwing things around like the .223 is a lighter bullet, flies faster, etc. and thus breaks up quicker. But, I've seen my dad put .223 size holes in a 1/4 inch steel spinner.

Now, I'm in New York state and thus it is ridiculously hard and expensive to get a pistol permit, so that is kind of out the question for home defense until I move. My dad recommends a shotgun. Kind of a classic, certainly has stopping power, shouldn't over penetrate much and an 870 with a blinding flashlight would be a damn scary sight. But, I can't really afford to buy another gun right now.

Currently I have an AR-15 style (M&P 15 to be exact) with a reflex sight, which I didn't buy for home defense but as my only other guns are bolt actions in .22 and 7.62 Russian it's kind of my only choice. I figure I would buy some frangible ammunition and keep it seperated from the ammunition I use at the range. It's expensive, yes, but since it would be reserved for an unavoidable confrontation with a home invader it would hopefully never be used anyways, or once or twice at the most. I figure also some sort of tactical flashlight on the forearm rail might make it more intimidating in the dark, so hopefully I wouldn't have to use any ammo at all.

So, thoughts? .223 with frangible ammo? rifle or carbine in a pistol caliber? Bite the bullet (pun intended) and buy that 870 I've been looking at? Thanks.

User avatar
TodayIsTomorrow
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:19 am UTC
Location: Afghanistan
Contact:

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby TodayIsTomorrow » Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:47 pm UTC

Well, I had a whole bunch of stuff written, and it was wiped away with a keystroke. Here we go again. Don'tcha hate that?

Alright. Since you already own an AR, we'll start with that. The .223/5.56 Nato wasn't ever meant to be a close range weapon's round. The round is very light, travels very fast, and doesn't like to change that for anything. From what I've read and seen, the frangible ammunition for the .223 has had mixed results. Depending on how your home is constructed will influence how you should do things. If your home is mostly concrete, then you should be good to go. If you can hear neighbours through the walls, you may want to shy away from a rifle round. You can do a simple test to find out if the .223 will stop in whatever your walls are made of. What you'll need to do is drill a hole in your wall and find out what its made of. Then, go down to the home depot or a comparable store and purchase a few layers of whatever material your walls are made of. Go to the range with a few boxes of your choice of ammunition, and shoot it up. When you're testing frangibles, you're looking for the second layer of the test medium to have a shotgun-like pattern of holes, or no holes at all. If the second layer has nothing but a bullet hole, then that round is going to keep right on truckin.

Now, if you're willing to shell out the money (and I know it can be painful), I highly recommend the 870 AS LONG AS you have a home with an open floor plan and wide halls. If your home has skinny hallways or small rooms, it makes it a pain to get around with anything larger than a pistol quickly, especially if you have to turn around fast. Now, on the subject of the shotgun, you still have to worry about penetration, but thankfully, there are other options for you. Seeing as the 870 is a pump action, it will happily digest anything of a 12 ga size. This means that you now have the option to use any of the plethora of specialty rounds that have been developed for use in it. My personal favorite for staying out of legal trouble, while also dropping whatever assailant happens to be threatening me, is the tried and proven bean bag. One of those to the gut will pretty much take care of any baddie. Now, if the beanbag fails to stop the assailant, or you miss, you've already given him or her ample warning. At this point, your second round should be bird shot. Most people recommend 00 buck for close quarters, but they also miss the point that you're trying not to kill your neighbour and not everyone lives in a house with good strong walls. Bird shot will be slowed down enough through a couple layers of dry wall to not be a threat. On the recieving end though, it is enough to stop someone with a possibility of death. After the bird shot, its up to you if you want to use further rounds of bird shot, or step up to the heavier you-need-to-stop-right-now rounds.

And finally, we come to pistols. Pistols are a favorite in home defense because of their maneuverability, ease of use and low chance of over-penetration. If you're going to use regular rounds in your pistols, you'll want something in either .45 ACP or .40 Smith and Wesson on the low end. .45 ACP is a wonderful round that has a very long history of stopping people really really well. .40 Smith and Wesson is making a really good name for itself with a whole lot of police forces. Now, pistols are where frangible ammunition really shows its true potential. With rounds this large, you have enough of a cross secional area of impact to slow that bullet down fast, and when it slows down, it breaks apart. Glaser Safety Rounds are about the best ones I've seen, and they really work well. They will powder a good sized hole in dry wall and 2x4's, but you'll find the fragments of the round about a foot or two past it. This also works really well when it hits a person. That same effect that causes the bullet to destroy itself very quickly in walls does the same exact thing when you hit a person. It really makes a mess. If someone keeps coming after being hit by a Glaser Round, you're either dealing with the most drugged up man in existance, vampires, or zombies. Maybe vampire zombies on PCP.

Now, the most important part of home defense, and the one most people forget about. You absolutely must be comfortable with your weapon. You must be able to know, without looking that the safety is on or off, that there is a round in the chamber or not. You must be able to hit your target in very low light, while bringing the weapon up quickly, or from the hip. There are so many scenarios that could possibly happen in a home defense situation that no course can ever cover them. Every one of them though, happens fast and you need to be able to react quickly and stop the threat faster than the threat can hurt you.

The second most important part of home defense, is to make sure that your home really is your castle. Make sure the doors lock propperly and can't be opened by cranking on the door knob and leaning into the door. Back doors are especially bad about this in most houses. The front door has a dead bolt, but the back door is nothing but one of the lock-in-knob pieces of junk. Check your windows from the outside, make sure you can't jimmy them open or fish the lock with a string and washer. Be creative, try actively to get into your house without using keys. For the love of god, don't leave extra keys laying outside the house. That fake rock doesn't fool anyone. Doorsills are the first thing you check for keys when getting in. If you absolutely have to leave an extra key outside, don't check on it every day. If you need to get it, cover up your getting it with another more obvious action. Drop a bag, spill your coffee, something to keep anyone watching from seeing where you put that extra key.

They say an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. I like my prevention to be loaded with at least a couple ounces of lead and a slight dose of paranoia never hurts.

I hope this helps you out. If you have any more questions, feel free to ask.

Cheers all.
Freedom is letting go of that which, truly, does not matter.

User avatar
Mr. Mack
Posts: 450
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 7:26 am UTC
Location: If I must.

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby Mr. Mack » Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:26 am UTC

Quick addendums to TodayisTomorrow's post, make sure you know the specific home-defense laws for your state. Some states have a Stand your Ground law, other states have a wet yourself and abandon your home law. Wikipedia shows New York as having a "weak castle law" with a link to the specific code.

Here's another advantage to a pump-action shotgun that is often overlooked. According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, when civilians use firearms for self-defense, they only actually fire a round 1% of the time (the report isn't online, and I don't remember how old it was, so have some salt handy). So just letting an intruder know that you're armed could be sufficient, so the sound of cocking a shotgun could be regarded as another line of defense. But to be clear, I'm not saying you won't be in that 1%, I'm saying that I think it's possible to improve your odds of avoiding it.

Also, in regards to handguns. I've always heard people recommend revolvers for home defense. The rationale being that automatics can jam. Of course they hardly ever do, 100 years is enough time to perfect the technology, but you don't want to have one of those "just my luck" moments when it matters most. It might also be worth noting that the manual for mine states that it only works with FMJ rounds, so watch out for strange compatibility issues.
If you do decide to go with a revolver, check back with TodayisTomorrow. Until then, I'd bet my life that a .38 special or a .38+P could stop an intruder. But I don't know how well they perform as frangibles, and I have no idea whether or not they over-penetrate with hollow-points. Maybe this guy could help you with that.
"Bagpipes, YES!"

Check out my girlfriend's Etsy shop, Kye's Kreations!

User avatar
TodayIsTomorrow
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:19 am UTC
Location: Afghanistan
Contact:

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby TodayIsTomorrow » Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:01 am UTC

Wow... just... wow. I just read through the entirety of http://www.theboxotruth.com. Color me impressed. With all the things that I saw done there being exactly what I would do if I had the finances and supplies, I am going to have to reorder the things I have for my own defense. That bird shot in the shotgun is getting replaced. After seeing the several times he stated that the penetration is nowhere close to snuff enough to stop a truly determined baddy, and seeing the penetration performance of it in his tests, I'm going to be switching over to 00 buck. My .45 will stick with JHP, but I'll upgrade to the newer rounds rather than the bargan bin stuff I've got back home now.

Highly informative link Mr. Mack. Not only did it open my eyes in new and special ways, but it also spent a grand chunk of this mind numbing 12 hour shift to read through.

I especially liked the rock salt test he did. I had to laugh at it a little. That salt is going to powder pretty much as soon as its fired, leading to the very few chunks found in the target. On top of that, the light weight of the chunks and the abnormal shapes will make them fly all kinds of strange directions.

Good stuff and a great read for anyone interested in knowing more about how bullets work.

Cheers, and thanks again
Freedom is letting go of that which, truly, does not matter.

User avatar
Axman
Posts: 2124
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:51 pm UTC
Location: Denver, Colorado

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby Axman » Thu Oct 23, 2008 6:35 am UTC

http://www.theboxotruth.com wrote:The Box O' Truth - The Buick O' Truth #5 - Shotguns and Car Doors

The slugs penetrated completely or buried themselves deep in the passenger door.

Lessons learned:
A car door doesn't protect you against shotguns either.


Ha!

A bunch of SWAT guys hang out at the same coffee shop I do, so I can say with confidence that the reason .40 is becoming popular with police is that 9mm doesn't exactly stop in walls. If you were curious.



WAIT, I have another MASSIVE movie/game pet peeve about shooters:

NOBODY shoots two guns at once. You can't do it, it's ludicrous to think that anyone ever does. But the concept does root in an actual shooting style. Gunslinging. (Wyatt Earp himself tried to convince people that they weren't shooting two guns at once, so I don't know why I'm bothering now, but hey, this box sure looks like it was made for detergent.)

Gunslingers, with their .45 long Colts, didn't have the time to reload in a gun fight, so they just carried extra guns. But drawing a pistol takes time, so experienced shooters would draw two guns, holding both out, throw away--sling, if you will--the spent revolver, and hand off their second gun without loosing time.

That, by the way, is also what a hold-out gun is. It's not just a backup somewhere in your pantsthat'swhatshesaid.

teh moar u noh!

User avatar
SecondTalon
SexyTalon
Posts: 26529
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 2:10 pm UTC
Location: Louisville, Kentucky, USA, Mars. HA!
Contact:

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby SecondTalon » Thu Oct 23, 2008 1:43 pm UTC

I always figured that, at best - someone who is ambidextrous and is an equally good shot with either hand would still only aim and shoot one gun at a time. Kinda a Left hand pow pow pow pow pow pow Right hand pow pow pow pow pow pow well, I'm fucked. But that a left-right-left-right style of shooting would have you missing things by a foot or more on each side.

The only time I can see it working is if you're simply laying down suppression fire while your friend does something useful, like not shooting two guns at once.
heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.
heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.

User avatar
Surgery
Posts: 628
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:22 am UTC
Location: Western New York

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby Surgery » Thu Oct 23, 2008 2:34 pm UTC

Wow, thanks for the huge reply TodayIsTomorrow. Very informative. Wondering what, if you've ever seen them, you think of these.

I do like the idea of a beanbag in the shotgun followed by a round of bird or 00 though. Can the public buy beanbag rounds? Laws are weird sometimes.

Unless I missed something in that link, Mr. Mack, it looks like the law in NY is that if you have reason to believe the person is attempting to burgle, rob, commit arson or harm someone you have the right to use lethal physical force. Please correct me if I misread.

Yea, boxotruth is pretty sweet. That's where I learned how to clean my M&P. Haven't read their defense articles though, I'll have another look.

But yea, shooting two guns at once or shooting 15 bullets out of a revolver or something like that always annoys me when it happens in movies. The one that really really bothers my dad though is in Tombstone when someone fires three shots out of a double-barrel shotgun. I think it annoys him so much because he loves the movie so much otherwise.

I'm sure I'll think of more stuff to add/ask as the day goes on. This is becoming one of my favorite threads in the gaming forum.

User avatar
Jebobek
Posts: 2219
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:19 pm UTC
Location: Harrisburg, Pennsylvania Geohash graticule

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby Jebobek » Thu Oct 23, 2008 5:52 pm UTC

Whenever I think "futuristic sci-fi weapons," something like my aforementioned Equillibrium, I could imagine weapons that use something like Metal Storm technology yet have recoil lower than what we perceive as possible. In the movie they talk about the efficiency of being able to neutralize twice the amount of people in a room because you can shoot two different ways, and have full 360-degree angles of doing so. Of course, that would not be very feasable with real-life weaponry. I guess that the mentality is that if you have two hands free to shoot you might as well be weilding a sort of rifle or shotgun.

Speaking of shotguns, is it true that a sawed-off shotgun is more "powerful" but has lower accuracy? Or is it just seemingly more "powerful" because the spray is wider hitting more parts of the target?
Image

User avatar
SecondTalon
SexyTalon
Posts: 26529
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 2:10 pm UTC
Location: Louisville, Kentucky, USA, Mars. HA!
Contact:

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby SecondTalon » Thu Oct 23, 2008 5:59 pm UTC

You may have two hands capable of holding a gun, and two eyes.. but until you can get each eye to move independently with each gun and adapt your brain to comprehend the images presented by this unusual vision, you're stuck with only having one point of view to aim your weapons. And since the things you're shooting at (people) have this annoying tendency to not want to get shot, it's highly likely that even if you line up a shot with one gun, by the time you turn your attention to the second, your target has moved.

As for shooting both guns at a single target, while it's true that you have binocular vision, your brain adapts this to a single, if dimensional, point of view. So unless you're in the habit of holding your guns on top of each other, both barrels (assuming their barrels are perfectly parallel with your vision) will be pointing at spots slightly to the left and right of where you are looking.

This problem is compounded if you attempt to tilt the guns inward so that the point of crossing is where your target is, as outside of a few, very special individuals, you will be either shooting in front of or behind your target. And those special few will need more than a millisecond to line up the shot.

Even allowing for some kind of Shadowrun system that uses cybernetic implants to literally put a dot in your vision to where your weapon is pointing... have you ever played those shooting games (like House of the Dead or somesuch) in the arcade, even ones with color-coded targeting reticles so you know where the blue gun is pointing and that the red gun is pointing elsewhere? Ever tried to play player 1 and player 2 at the same time? Even with that assistance, it's harder without extensive practice than it would be to just use one gun.
heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.
heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.

User avatar
Jebobek
Posts: 2219
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:19 pm UTC
Location: Harrisburg, Pennsylvania Geohash graticule

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby Jebobek » Thu Oct 23, 2008 6:40 pm UTC

I know what you mean. I've actually done Wii Play's target range with dual wiimotes and yes, its suprisingly hard and horribly drops my accuracy. How about covering two zones with something automatic, like dual MAC-10's. Only in make-believe-futuristic land where there they have no recoil.

Think of it as having two TV's or arcade games running at the same time, being 45-degree distances from each other and facing you, and you have to play them both. (time crisis 2/3/4, anyone?) Yea, I'd be fucked, and would probably do better using only one gun if it worked on both screens.

Or in real life, lets say you've got to lay some sort of cover fire down two hallways simultaneously, so you grab the two closest things you could find. What would best things be in that (totally-situational) situation? Would it still be one thing? I guess its all about the situation.
Image

User avatar
Surgery
Posts: 628
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:22 am UTC
Location: Western New York

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby Surgery » Thu Oct 23, 2008 7:57 pm UTC

TodayIsTomorrow wrote:Now, if the beanbag fails to stop the assailant, or you miss, you've already given him or her ample warning. At this point, your second round should be bird shot.


ok, i was talking with my room mate about this and he brought up a good point. What if you shoot him with the beanbag, he drops to the ground, and pulls a gun. now you have to shoot him while he's on the ground. Couldn't that land you in bigger trouble than "not giving a warning shot"?

edit: also, do any of you know of a good website where I can read the laws about home defense in more detail than "you have the right to use lethal force if you are being burgled". stuff like whether or not I have to give warning, etc.

User avatar
SecondTalon
SexyTalon
Posts: 26529
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 2:10 pm UTC
Location: Louisville, Kentucky, USA, Mars. HA!
Contact:

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby SecondTalon » Thu Oct 23, 2008 8:29 pm UTC

The laws in the US vary between each state. Outside of the US, I don't know if the laws vary between states/provinces/territories/etc, but the overall laws of the country would obviously be different. Depending on the US State, laws may differ depending on what town you're in. (I know New York City has stricter gun laws than the rest of New York State)

So it really depends on where you're from.

(Consider this a reason as to why filling out the location part of your profile is helpful.)
heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.
heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.

User avatar
Surgery
Posts: 628
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:22 am UTC
Location: Western New York

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby Surgery » Thu Oct 23, 2008 8:37 pm UTC

haha, good point, ST. I was just wondering if there was a general site about U.S. state laws. Like the NRA website has a section that has gun ownership laws by state, but I couldn't find anything about home/self-defense laws.

boxotruth wrote:4. I "racked" the shotgun several times during the tests, and no bystanders lost control of their bowels.
Conclusion: Racking a shotgun will not make the bad guy faint.


I kind of have an issue with this statement. The reason his bystanders weren't frightened is because they weren't trying to rob or injure him and knew that he wasn't going to shoot them. If you're somewhere where you're not supposed be, and I would think doubly so if it's a private residence, and you hear a gun being cocked, there's a pretty good chance it's meant for you. Conclusion: There's a difference in mental/emotional state between the people watching you shoot at the range and someone breaking into your house.

User avatar
Kaelri
Posts: 352
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:42 pm UTC
Location: York, New
Contact:

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby Kaelri » Thu Oct 23, 2008 8:39 pm UTC

Jebobek wrote:Speaking of shotguns, is it true that a sawed-off shotgun is more "powerful" but has lower accuracy? Or is it just seemingly more "powerful" because the spray is wider hitting more parts of the target?


Yeah, that's the only advantage I can think of with a shotgun - you'd get a wider cone, which makes it easier to hit targets at a very short range. It's less powerful, though, in the sense people usually mean it. A shorter barrel always means a lower muzzle velocity, and thus lower momentum, because the gas pressure has less time to accelerate the bullet. I'm not sure how much effect that has on stopping power - that seems to have more to do with the mass and structure of the round - but I know it's a big deal when it comes to range. So the only point of sawing off the barrel of a gun is when a smaller and more maneuverable weapon is more valuable than the loss of range.

User avatar
keybored
Posts: 102
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:19 pm UTC
Location: Winter Garden, FL
Contact:

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby keybored » Thu Oct 23, 2008 8:51 pm UTC

Jebobek wrote:Speaking of shotguns, is it true that a sawed-off shotgun is more "powerful" but has lower accuracy? Or is it just seemingly more "powerful" because the spray is wider hitting more parts of the target?

cutting the barrel off has zero impact on a weapon's "power". power is determined by the weight of the round being fired and the velocity that round is traveling when it exits the end of the barrel. aside from being illegal pretty much everywhere, yes because of such a short barrel it's going to be highly innaccurate. with buckshot, the spread pattern being wider means more chance that some of them will miss him (unless you're point-blank, where accuracy is a given).

Surgery wrote:I kind of have an issue with this statement. The reason his bystanders weren't frightened is because they weren't trying to rob or injure him and knew that he wasn't going to shoot them. If you're somewhere where you're not supposed be, and I would think doubly so if it's a private residence, and you hear a gun being cocked, there's a pretty good chance it's meant for you. Conclusion: There's a difference in mental/emotional state between the people watching you shoot at the range and someone breaking into your house.

if i broke into a house and heard that sound coming out of the dark i'd make a bee-line for the door.
LE4dGOLEM wrote:THERE IS NOT A SUFFICIENT CUSSWORD TO SHOW HOW LITTLE I APPRECIATE YOU.
Klapaucius wrote:Unfortunately it was deleted around the time I began, with somewhat shaky logic, to advise him not to rape animals.

User avatar
Axman
Posts: 2124
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:51 pm UTC
Location: Denver, Colorado

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby Axman » Thu Oct 23, 2008 11:42 pm UTC

keybored wrote:cutting the barrel off has zero impact on a weapon's "power".

Well that's just patently untrue. I could go through the effort of explaining why but I'll let you read any of the resources in this very thread in hopes that you draw a conclusion rooted in science.

Here, I'll give you a head start:

keybored wrote:power is determined by the weight of the round being fired and the velocity that round is traveling when it exits the end of the barrel.

Emphasis added for science.

User avatar
bigglesworth
I feel like Biggles should have a title
Posts: 7461
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 9:29 pm UTC
Location: Airstrip One

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby bigglesworth » Thu Oct 23, 2008 11:58 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:I always figured that, at best - someone who is ambidextrous and is an equally good shot with either hand would still only aim and shoot one gun at a time. Kinda a Left hand pow pow pow pow pow pow Right hand pow pow pow pow pow pow well, I'm fucked. But that a left-right-left-right style of shooting would have you missing things by a foot or more on each side.

The only time I can see it working is if you're simply laying down suppression fire while your friend does something useful, like not shooting two guns at once.


I'm trying to find the image I saw once of a Brazilian policeman running across where his friends are laying down covering fire, with two pistols held akimbo. And yet, somehow, he has perfect trigger discipline.
Generation Y. I don't remember the First Gulf War, but do remember floppy disks.

User avatar
TodayIsTomorrow
Posts: 53
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:19 am UTC
Location: Afghanistan
Contact:

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby TodayIsTomorrow » Fri Oct 24, 2008 4:52 pm UTC

Akimbo is radically impractical and generally inaccurate, however, if you work at it, you can hold the pistols very close together, with your thumbs touching and get both rounds to hit roughly in the same place every time as long as you keep a proper grip on the pistol. I must say, it is great fun though.

I have to wonder with all of these "reduced penetration, reduced ricochet" rounds. They all claim one very specific thing, being that they won't go through the walls of a plane. I'm curious what the difference in resistance would be between the standard drywall housing tests and a single section of an airplane's skin. I'm sure aluminium can't show very much resistance to a bullet, but I'm thinking the key to all of these disintegrating rounds is the tensile strength of the impact surface. Anyone out there with a physics degree care to pitch in on the theory?

I absolutely hate it when gun battles in movies have the guns holding FAR too many rounds. Equilibrium was horrible about that, as were all of the Mariachi series of movies (El Mariachi, Desperado and Once upon a time in mexico). Hell, just about every movie with guns in it did it at some point.

A quick google search turned up a website where it looks like you would be able to buy a whole range of specialty ammunition of the 12 ga. They've got all kinds of nifty stuff from rubber rounds, to beanbags to AP rounds and flechettes. I'm pretty sure you can get ammunition shipped to your door by ground, but the special stuff may need to be shipped to an FFL holder (usually your local gun shop). The website is http://www.ammunitiontogo.com. If you're interested in some interesting ammunition, pick up what they call "Jungle rounds." It looks like a mix of #6 shot and a few buck balls. Might make some interesting patterns, but I've never even seen them, so that's just conjecture. Also, resist the temptation to get the flechette rounds. Last I knew they were banned by the geneva convention for warfare, and I'm sure that local law will have an issue with them. Check your laws.

I'm only going to say a little on sawn off shotguns. They don't work worth a crap unless you can spit on your oponent and they require an AOW or Class III stamp/lisence to own. They look cool, but that's about it. If you're using slugs, I can see them being an interesting side arm, but the lack of ammo capacity and the horrendous recoil with slugs would make them worthless for all but the most buil and/or masochistic of men. I've fired a short shotgun with a 14 inch barrel and it hurt like hell. I can only imagine what it would be like with a shorter barrel than that. Then again, I was firing high brass buck out of the thing, so that didn't help in the slightest.

Cheers all.
Freedom is letting go of that which, truly, does not matter.

User avatar
Axman
Posts: 2124
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:51 pm UTC
Location: Denver, Colorado

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby Axman » Fri Oct 24, 2008 8:27 pm UTC

TodayIsTomorrow wrote:I have to wonder with all of these "reduced penetration, reduced ricochet" rounds. They all claim one very specific thing, being that they won't go through the walls of a plane. I'm curious what the difference in resistance would be between the standard drywall housing tests and a single section of an airplane's skin. I'm sure aluminium can't show very much resistance to a bullet, but I'm thinking the key to all of these disintegrating rounds is the tensile strength of the impact surface.

There was a radio article on NPR right when the FAA started clearing pilots to carry firearms on planes; in the '90s, the DOD was interested in this, too, but being the DOD, they just flew a 737 up with a bunch of guns and shot the Hell out of it from the inside.

I have no idea where to find this article personally but I do know the program director for Colorado Public Radio and she might have a better idea where to look.

Anyway, the practical upshot was this: regular bullets, even fired from a pistol, can go through the walls and skin of the plane, without notably affecting the craft (outside of being able to see through it). The risk is damaging components of the aircraft, although most of them aren't right against the cabin and there are fail-overs and so even that risk is small. There was no explosive decompression, and bullet holes can easily be shored up with a sheet of paper. Portholes are load-bearing, so if one is destroyed, the plane will suffer structural damage, but an open porthole can be shored with clothes and seat cushions and tape before the stress becomes an issue (it takes hundreds of hours).

This whole notion of security and regulation... I don't know what's worse, that it's ineffective or unnecessary. -digress-

User avatar
SecondTalon
SexyTalon
Posts: 26529
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 2:10 pm UTC
Location: Louisville, Kentucky, USA, Mars. HA!
Contact:

Re: Muzzle Flash

Postby SecondTalon » Fri Oct 24, 2008 8:31 pm UTC

There was also the Mythbusters where they took a plane on the ground, increased the air pressure inside it and had a gun fire from the inside with similar results - lots of noise, air shooting out, no sci-fi spacebattle explosive decompression.
heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.
heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.


Return to “Gaming”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests