It's been done, but I want to do a meta-RPG.

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It's been done, but I want to do a meta-RPG.

Postby SJ Zero » Mon Dec 01, 2008 7:14 pm UTC

I'm playing Grandia II, and It's actually frustrating seeing characters pretending they're not huge clichés while going about being huge clichés.

So I'm playing as the badass anti-social hero who, despite pretending by being mean all the time is really a big softy who seems to magically find an excuse to save every yokel missing a trinket in the game.

Next to me is a beautiful and pure girl who has a strange and mysterious power who pretends to hate the bad-ass anti-social hero but is actually falling in love with him, who the badass anti-social hero claims to hate but would follow to the ends of the earth and defend to the death despite meeting her only a couple hours ago.

Next, I got the annoying kid.

You know, Just once, I'd like someone to say "Oh, I see you've got a player character hanging over your shoulder. You're obviously the most important persons in this world, and will likely solve every single problem anyone ever even mentions in passing, whether you like it or not. In fact, there's a squirrel in a cave somewhere that you'll probably travel the world for searching for the most pristine nuts so he can hibernate because he's probably sleeping next to the epic sword of awesomity or 100GP. Here, I'm just going to give you 99 of each kind of potion, because the sooner that asshole gets off your shoulder, the sooner you'll stop pissing off ancient gods and demons forcing them to reshape the world to defy you."

Or you know what? I want someone to say "Oh no. You know what? I don't like you. I'm NOT going to get dragged into some gay-ass romantic subplot hinted at before we even meet for the first time. Don't you realise the terrible implications for free will that the first girl I meet who has the slightest interest in me will fall helplessly in love with me and I'm powerless to resist her advances? Maybe I don't like the beautiful and pure girl. Maybe I like the evil wing girl who tried to hold me down with magic and deflower me the second time we met? Maybe I don't like any of you and I'm going to settle down with a merchant girl who likes mindlessly levelling up even more than I do? Hey, maybe I like Magus and I'll end up hiding my true feelings until my deathbed, whereupon I'll reveal it and Magus'll go 'buddy, I don't like dudes'. When did choice become the choice to fall in love with the destined object of lust or not?"

Oh, you know what else could be good? "Hey, you're like 6. Just because you want to fight doesn't mean I'm going to let you fight death knights. What are you, retarded?"

That's it. After my current project is done, I'm making a meta-RPG to vent all my frustrations at players who want to pretend they aren't hackneyed tropes in a massive dystopian cliché of a world, surrounded by tropes so transparent it reads like a script to Final Fantasy 7 with less interesting dialogue and no cut-scenes.

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Re: It's been done, but I want to do a meta-RPG.

Postby Endless Mike » Mon Dec 01, 2008 8:36 pm UTC

Is it possible to make dialogue less interesting than FF7?

EDIT: Square did it with FF8.

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Re: It's been done, but I want to do a meta-RPG.

Postby SJ Zero » Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:15 pm UTC

Example of dialog worse than FF7:

An evil girl with black wings arrives and joins your party without any real explanation (except trying to raep you). Sticks with you throughout an entire dungeon.

"Gee, this girl has no story, no reason to be in my party, she's got wings, appears for the first time seconds after you learn the good girl has been inhabited by the evil spirit of some wings, and only appears after the good girl leaves the party. I bet she's the evil form of the good girl!"

15 minutes later: "What? You're the evil form of the good girl!? That's so unexpected!"

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Re: It's been done, but I want to do a meta-RPG.

Postby Nyarlathotep » Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:58 pm UTC

You do realize that jRPGs are not the only kind of RPGs out there, yes...?
'Gehȳrst þū, sǣlida, hwæt þis folc segeð?
hī willað ēow tō gafole gāras syllan,
ǣttrynne ord and ealde swurd,
þā heregeatu þe ēow æt hilde ne dēah.

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Re: It's been done, but I want to do a meta-RPG.

Postby SecondTalon » Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:59 pm UTC

Obviously not, but why ruin his fun? I mean, if he's comfortable playing shitty games, who are we to stop him?

I'mma be over here with my depressed warrior-slave and floating skull.
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Re: It's been done, but I want to do a meta-RPG.

Postby Jessica » Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:16 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:Obviously not, but why ruin his fun? I mean, if he's comfortable playing shitty games, who are we to stop him?

I'mma be over here with my depressed warrior-slave and floating skull.

I'll be over here shooting super mutants in my vaultsuit.
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Re: It's been done, but I want to do a meta-RPG.

Postby Endless Mike » Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:04 pm UTC

I'll be over here rolling things up.

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Re: It's been done, but I want to do a meta-RPG.

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:35 pm UTC

I'm smashing things with a beer bong while a chocolate-flavored chocobo digs up meat with it's wings.

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Re: It's been done, but I want to do a meta-RPG.

Postby Jessica » Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:36 pm UTC

Mighty Jalapeno wrote:I'm smashing things with a beer bong while a chocolate-flavored chocobo digs up meat with it's wings.

Kingdom of loathing is awesome.
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Re: It's been done, but I want to do a meta-RPG.

Postby Clumpy » Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:15 pm UTC

Man, if you think the storyline and characterization in Grandia II sucks bad enough to complain about it so much, then you need to play something really mediocre. A good battle engine can't save the Tales series, for example.

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Re: It's been done, but I want to do a meta-RPG.

Postby SJ Zero » Wed Dec 03, 2008 12:13 am UTC

I go through enough games that I can afford to try many different types. I just got to the half-way mark in Deus Ex(That game is crazy long) and finished Fallout 1, for example (I've got time for the first time in my life to get through the masterpieces I missed).

What makes the game so infuriating is that it's not a bad game. I've played every single NES and SNES game. I've seen some games that are so awful they shouldn't even qualify as games. I've seen completely unplayable RPGs -- literally, I couldn't figure out how to play them. This one, by contrast, is easy to control, has some cool and innovative features, impressive graphics, and competent voice acting and is actually pretty fun. It has a lot of cool little bits in it. That's what makes the horrible writing so unfortunate.

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Re: It's been done, but I want to do a meta-RPG.

Postby Jack Saladin » Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:59 am UTC

Play Grandia I. Same awesome battle system, surprisingly good story (well, it seemed good when I played it 7 years ago).

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Re: It's been done, but I want to do a meta-RPG.

Postby aion7 » Wed Dec 03, 2008 5:33 am UTC

SJ Zero wrote:I've played every single NES and SNES game.

Do you also love the Power Glove? On a scale of one to negative ten, how bad would you say it is?

I think we may be dealing with a grown-up Lucas Barton here, guys.
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Re: It's been done, but I want to do a meta-RPG.

Postby Clumpy » Wed Dec 03, 2008 9:19 am UTC

Jack Saladin wrote:Play Grandia I. Same awesome battle system, surprisingly good story


. . . Headache-riffic sprite scaling.

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Re: It's been done, but I want to do a meta-RPG.

Postby SJ Zero » Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:08 pm UTC

aion7 wrote:
SJ Zero wrote:I've played every single NES and SNES game.

Do you also love the Power Glove? On a scale of one to negative ten, how bad would you say it is?

I think we may be dealing with a grown-up Lucas Barton here, guys.


Actually, it's not that big a deal. It's 2008 -- not that hard to pick up a couple emulator torrents and spend a couple weeks going through each file in an emulator.

Sprite scaling is awesome. BUILD engine 4eva!

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Re: It's been done, but I want to do a meta-RPG.

Postby Yuri2356 » Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:24 pm UTC

Er, wouldn't the meta-RPG be one in which you roleplay as some guy who's playing an RPG?

eg. World of World of Warcraft

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Re: It's been done, but I want to do a meta-RPG.

Postby jerdak » Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:38 pm UTC

aion7 wrote:
SJ Zero wrote:I've played every single NES and SNES game.

Do you also love the Power Glove? On a scale of one to negative ten, how bad would you say it is?

I think we may be dealing with a grown-up Lucas Barton here, guys.


Pfff, I'd give it a 20. I actually got the power glove for x-mas when I was a wee lad. I was taken in by the commercials and naively believed I could really do things like punch in Mike Tyson's punch out. It came as a great shock and found that all the dumb thing did was read the motion of my individual fingers. I gotta say, knocking out Tyson by flicking my index finger... not the end all experience I was expecting.

I'll say one thing though, that damn glove gave me some super crazy finger strength.

On topic: I agree with Yuri, wouldn't this be like the xkcd strip of recursive roleplaying? And rpg about rpg's? Maybe this could be a game where you play a japanese game designer crafting the next jrpg story?
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Re: It's been done, but I want to do a meta-RPG.

Postby Endless Mike » Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:26 pm UTC

Yuri2356 wrote:Er, wouldn't the meta-RPG be one in which you roleplay as some guy who's playing an RPG?

eg. World of World of Warcraft

Isn't that what the .Hack series is?

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Re: It's been done, but I want to do a meta-RPG.

Postby Clumpy » Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:21 pm UTC

Endless Mike wrote:
Yuri2356 wrote:Er, wouldn't the meta-RPG be one in which you roleplay as some guy who's playing an RPG?

eg. World of World of Warcraft

Isn't that what the .Hack series is?


Yeah, they took the grind of an MMORPG and made it the focus of the game, without realizing that the grind is what we tolerate for features like updatable content and human opponents/party members.

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Re: It's been done, but I want to do a meta-RPG.

Postby Klapaucius » Wed Dec 03, 2008 11:52 pm UTC

Yuri2356 wrote:Er, wouldn't the meta-RPG be one in which you roleplay as some guy who's playing an RPG?

eg. World of World of Warcraft


Yeah, he means a metatextual RPG, but let's keep the nitpicking to a minimum (and, yes, I do realize that this is the internet.)

I think too many games (and other media) think it is okay to employ stale and cliched tropes as long as the characters say "Oh I hate repetitive fetchquests" or "That's a shaky premise". No amount of lampshades hung will bring a dead horse back to life.

Actual subversion, on the other hand, is a good thing--pointing out cliched tropes through not using them. This sounds more like what you're doing, if your characters refuse to accept the hackneyed world they live in. Perhaps the hero is questing to find a land which is capable of original thought?
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Re: It's been done, but I want to do a meta-RPG.

Postby aion7 » Wed Dec 03, 2008 11:57 pm UTC

Klapaucius wrote:I think too many games (and other media) think it is okay to employ stale and cliched tropes as long as the characters say "Oh I hate repetitive fetchquests" or "That's a shaky premise". No amount of lampshades hung will bring a dead horse back to life.

Prime example: The Simpsons Game
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Re: It's been done, but I want to do a meta-RPG.

Postby shiinto » Tue Dec 09, 2008 9:29 am UTC

All of you who haven't yet done so should play Threads of Fate. It's an old game, on the PSX (or your favourite emulator), but it's pretty special in this respect. Threads of Fate has a (mostly) single story, seen from two points of view - Rue, who's your standard normal memory-deficient, tragic-past-possessing, help-volunteering, fed-ex questing, oversized-weapon-wielding rpg hero, and Mint, who is basically a teenage violent chaotic evil villain.

For the jaded rpg gamer, Mint's storyline is pure joy. She's out to rule the world and kill her sister, and unlike every other nominally evil party member in an rpg, she actually works towards it. She's a vengeful glutton, she intimidates and occasionally mugs people, she jumpkicks something like 20 people throughout the course of the game, she refuses to go on fetch quests or perform 'boring' tasks like saving people and towns (often, Rue ends up having to clean up the mess in his side of the story) preferring instead to manipulate, threaten and/or jumpkick the quest npc into giving up the item or information she's after. Mint and her story subvert almost every rpg cliché out there, paying particular attention to the ones played straight in Rue's more serious storyline. Best of all, despite carrying hilariously on in this decidedly un-heroic and sometimes downright antisocial fashion, Mint remains compelling and cute as a button.

Anybody ever play this?

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Re: It's been done, but I want to do a meta-RPG.

Postby Pizzashark » Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:36 am UTC

Yeah, the cliches do get old pretty fast.

I'd love to see a quality RPG where you really can play as an evil son of a bitch, rather than either a good hero or a hero that's a selfish asshole.

Case in point, Baldur's Gate II:

Plenty of "evil" options (NOT saving the slaves, betraying people, demanding payment for help, then demanding more), but nothing that changes the plot progression, or anything very significant. You still "save the world" at the end of the game, no matter how evil you claim to be. You can't just zip in, get what you came to get, and then just leave. Granted, you kinda can't get it without saving the world.

The "romances" are pathetic, too. As a male, you get three options: heartless bitch, doe-eyed spineless virgin, or creepy "lady friend". No matter which you choose, they all exhibit various flavors "I NEEDS A MAN TO SAVE ME." I never tried playing a female character, but apparently their ONE option is the inverse - you have to be a dutiful wife, telling him how great he is and fixing him sandwiches and whatever. The really great thing is that the dialogue options give you the option of telling them what any sane person would in real life (you can get one of them pregnant and then panic and back out; I swear to god both ends of the conversation had to be taken word-for-word from someone's real=life circumstances), but if you actually USE them, it "breaks" the romance. Tell the bitch that she's a bitch, tell the virgin to get laid, or tell the creepy lady friend to back the fuck off and they lose interest. I wonder why.

I've always wondered why games seem to have so much trouble crafting realistic romances; Cloud chases Aeris' tail all game and then miraculously winds up in the sack with Tifa at the end? Can we bottle that up and sell it? Hell, he was probably porking Yufie on the side the whole time, too. I actually liked FF3 (or 6, or whatever the Kefka one is) because it didn't really have characters sleeping with each other constantly, though it seemed that it was trying to imply Locke-Celes and Edgar-Terra. But at least it didn't force it down our throats.

I think the Fallout games have come closest to doing a good, balanced mix of good/evil paths. The only issues were that you still had to get the damned water chip or GECK; been better if you could've left V13/Arroyo and just tell em to go fuck themselves.

EDIT:

Planescape Torment also did a pretty good job of allowing an evil path, since the whole game was about you saving yourself, not saving the world. It didn't feature much on the romantic side (just Annah, I believe, who's a bit of a stereotype herself, being the young, brash virgin subtype that features an angry, hostile exterior with a soft, vulnerable interior), but then what kinda neurotic fool would fall in love with an immortal amnesiac half as old as time? Either way, Planescape Torment's about the best RPG out there as far as story and characters go. Do yourselves a favor and go pick up a copy, if you can find one.
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Re: It's been done, but I want to do a meta-RPG.

Postby SecondTalon » Tue Dec 09, 2008 2:57 pm UTC

To be fair, there was also the Fall-From-Grace (The succubus who ran the intellect brothel and was chaste) romance that wasn't nearly as overt as Annah's. Given the mutual histories involved, it was substantially more subdued, harder to pick up on, and harder to initiate.

Pretty much a relationship based on what was unsaid more than what was said - even more so than your relationship with Annah.

Is there an RPG archtype that's essentially Sex Creature who Abstains?
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Re: It's been done, but I want to do a meta-RPG.

Postby Indon » Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:09 pm UTC

Clumpy wrote:Yeah, they took the grind of an MMORPG and made it the focus of the game, without realizing that the grind is what we tolerate for features like updatable content and human opponents/party members.


I can and have played MMO's specifically so I could turn off my brain doing a repetitive task on a computer, thankyouverymuch.

World of Warcraft isn't nearly as good at that as it used to be, though - too many fighter/bomber/dragon sorties, not enough farming 60 troll tusks. I've resorted to Sacred for my brain-deactivation gaming (and will probably resort to Diablo III when it comes out).

What it sounds like you want, SJZero, is a deconstruction, with maybe some parody thrown in. Closest thing I can think of would be Jay's Journey (which is mostly parody), which I'm sure you could find with a bit of Googling.

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Re: It's been done, but I want to do a meta-RPG.

Postby Sonja » Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:29 pm UTC

I kind of like the Persona series for this, especially Persona 3 FES. While the main story will go the same way no matter what you do, you do get to be a complete asshole in some situations. The reactions don't have any real reprecussions except then you don't get to level up a Social Link that would in turn let you get different personas.

Which is great, because if I had to be paired with that whiny, selfish pink-cardigan-wearing brunette bitch, I would have punted her through the wall. It's also possible to date almost every girl in your party in the FES version (I believe Persona 4 adds the option to date males too, and decide if you want to date people, or 'just be friends'.), though until you get the relationship to a certain level, they get pretty pissed if they find out you've been cheating.

I did love the Grandia and Tales of games, but it's true that they only offer so much in ways of character interaction (considering you don't even get a choice).

Mint in Threads of Fate really was something special. We need more characters around like her. I also liked Caim from Drakengard, who said pretty much 'fuck you' to everyone, and wound up falling in love with his dragon.

As for MMORPGs, I don't play too many of those. Just Istaria: The Chronicles of the Gifted, where I play a nearly-always grouchy young dragon.

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Re: It's been done, but I want to do a meta-RPG.

Postby Pizzashark » Wed Dec 10, 2008 9:36 am UTC

SecondTalon wrote:To be fair, there was also the Fall-From-Grace (The succubus who ran the intellect brothel and was chaste) romance that wasn't nearly as overt as Annah's. Given the mutual histories involved, it was substantially more subdued, harder to pick up on, and harder to initiate.

Pretty much a relationship based on what was unsaid more than what was said - even more so than your relationship with Annah.

Is there an RPG archtype that's essentially Sex Creature who Abstains?


I don't think so; FFG is a pretty unique character, which is why I usually drag her around even though Vhailor's more useful (typical party being TNO, Morte, Dak'kon, Annah, Nordom, and last person) in a fight. I wanted to explore the possibility of shacking up with FFG last time I played, but apparently her chat function got bugged out after leaving the maze and couldn't talk to her. Couldn't fix it so I just went with Annah again.

I always was hoping she'd talk more about her past. Does she do so if you shack up with her instead of Annah?
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Re: It's been done, but I want to do a meta-RPG.

Postby Aikanaro » Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:40 pm UTC

Hmmm, evil protagonist, who gets to BE evil, and it can affect the storyline? A friend mentioned Tecmo's Deception to me......basically, you're a prince of a kingdom, with a hot fiancee. Your evil brother killed your dad and framed you for it. At the moment of your execution, you called out to Satan, asking for vengeance. You were snatched away at the moment of your death (not sure if you "died" and came back, or what), and now inhabit the Castle of the Damned, where you lure in villagers, castle guards, etc., and murder them one by one with lots of traps, so that you can gain enough power to ressurect your dark master, Satan, and have your vengeance upon the world. No, I am not making this up. Gameplay's not great from what I've heard, but at least it's evil enough, I think :P
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Re: It's been done, but I want to do a meta-RPG.

Postby Klapaucius » Wed Dec 10, 2008 11:11 pm UTC

Aikanaro wrote:Hmmm, evil protagonist, who gets to BE evil, and it can affect the storyline? A friend mentioned Tecmo's Deception to me......basically, you're a prince of a kingdom, with a hot fiancee. Your evil brother killed your dad and framed you for it. At the moment of your execution, you called out to Satan, asking for vengeance. You were snatched away at the moment of your death (not sure if you "died" and came back, or what), and now inhabit the Castle of the Damned, where you lure in villagers, castle guards, etc., and murder them one by one with lots of traps, so that you can gain enough power to ressurect your dark master, Satan, and have your vengeance upon the world. No, I am not making this up. Gameplay's not great from what I've heard, but at least it's evil enough, I think :P


Now, that's a bit much for my taste. Why would any decent videogame villain want to be Satan's lackey?
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Re: It's been done, but I want to do a meta-RPG.

Postby Yuri2356 » Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:36 am UTC

Klapaucius wrote:
Aikanaro wrote:Hmmm, evil protagonist, who gets to BE evil, and it can affect the storyline? A friend mentioned Tecmo's Deception to me......basically, you're a prince of a kingdom, with a hot fiancee. Your evil brother killed your dad and framed you for it. At the moment of your execution, you called out to Satan, asking for vengeance. You were snatched away at the moment of your death (not sure if you "died" and came back, or what), and now inhabit the Castle of the Damned, where you lure in villagers, castle guards, etc., and murder them one by one with lots of traps, so that you can gain enough power to ressurect your dark master, Satan, and have your vengeance upon the world. No, I am not making this up. Gameplay's not great from what I've heard, but at least it's evil enough, I think :P


Now, that's a bit much for my taste. Why would any decent videogame villain want to be Satan's lackey?

Easy place to usurp the throne from.

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Re: It's been done, but I want to do a meta-RPG.

Postby Aikanaro » Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:30 am UTC

Basically, because you're so pissed off with the world, you want it ALL to burn, and resurrecting Satan is a good way to accomplish it.
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Re: It's been done, but I want to do a meta-RPG.

Postby Pizzashark » Thu Dec 11, 2008 5:39 am UTC

Aikanaro wrote:Basically, because you're so pissed off with the world, you want it ALL to burn, and resurrecting Satan is a good way to accomplish it.


Ressurrect him just long enough to steal his portfolio, you mean. Then you kill him and take over. You aren't a very ambitious evil son of a bitch, are you? :(
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Re: It's been done, but I want to do a meta-RPG.

Postby Klapaucius » Thu Dec 11, 2008 10:57 pm UTC

Aikanaro wrote:Basically, because you're so pissed off with the world, you want it ALL to burn, and resurrecting Satan is a good way to accomplish it.


Why would you destroy the world, the villain's equivalent of pouting and shoving the chessboard off the table, when you could rule it and humiliate everyone who wronged you, and everyone everyone who wronged you ever loved, over the course of many years?
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Re: It's been done, but I want to do a meta-RPG.

Postby Aikanaro » Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:16 am UTC

Since when is sanity and/or logic a prerequisite for being a villain?

EDIT: Oh, and just so we're clear, that's just ONE of the possible endings in the game, as well as your initial motivation. No one ever said you HAD to go through with it all. But can you really be said to "rule" the world if burning it all isn't even an OPTION for you? Not necessarily a GOOD option, but should still be there....
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Re: It's been done, but I want to do a meta-RPG.

Postby Yuri2356 » Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:37 am UTC

Klapaucius wrote:
Aikanaro wrote:Basically, because you're so pissed off with the world, you want it ALL to burn, and resurrecting Satan is a good way to accomplish it.


Why would you destroy the world, the villain's equivalent of pouting and shoving the chessboard off the table, when you could rule it and humiliate everyone who wronged you, and everyone everyone who wronged you ever loved, over the course of many years?

Nihllism? Sadism? Secret backup plan wherin you build your own world, with blackjack and hookers? Good 'ol fasioned madness?

Insane villians are some of the best villians. What we need is more insane heroes.

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Re: It's been done, but I want to do a meta-RPG.

Postby Klapaucius » Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:43 am UTC

Yuri2356 wrote:
Klapaucius wrote:
Aikanaro wrote:Basically, because you're so pissed off with the world, you want it ALL to burn, and resurrecting Satan is a good way to accomplish it.


Why would you destroy the world, the villain's equivalent of pouting and shoving the chessboard off the table, when you could rule it and humiliate everyone who wronged you, and everyone everyone who wronged you ever loved, over the course of many years?

Nihllism? Sadism? Secret backup plan wherin you build your own world, with blackjack and hookers? Good 'ol fasioned madness?

Insane villians are some of the best villians. What we need is more insane heroes.


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Re: It's been done, but I want to do a meta-RPG.

Postby Aikanaro » Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:52 am UTC

Well, right off the bat, Travis Touchdown and Kratos come to mind as Heroic Sociopaths....granted, not in RPGs....
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Re: It's been done, but I want to do a meta-RPG.

Postby Yuri2356 » Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:19 am UTC

Aikanaro wrote:Well, right off the bat, Travis Touchdown and Kratos come to mind as Heroic Sociopaths....granted, not in RPGs....

Murder-lovin' heroes are a dime a dozen. There's far more to crazy than "I stab things."

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Re: It's been done, but I want to do a meta-RPG.

Postby Pizzashark » Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:19 am UTC

Yuri2356 wrote:Insane villians are some of the best villians. What we need is more insane heroes.

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Re: It's been done, but I want to do a meta-RPG.

Postby FACM » Sat Dec 13, 2008 5:41 am UTC

I've thought about how an RPG would go that started off with the cliched team of rag-tag misfits joining up for whatever reasons only to break apart as each member realized that the party has totally ignored their own needs, instead just running around doing whatever Hero McWinner wants to do.

So, take FF6, but have Gau leave because he doesn't get cities or politics, Setzer leaves because there's no good women, booze, or craps tables, Celes decides not to be a pawn in a conflict she doesn't understand, Shadow remembers why he became a loner in the first place, Relm and Strago leave because they hate fighting [regardless of how good they are at it], Mog has to defend his hometown or his race will die out and takes the sasquatch with him, and Gogo just follows one of them out. This leaves the Returners, but they actually had reasons to cooperate beyond 'Well, since you asked nicely'


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